Price Isn't Always Indicitive of Quality or Performance

People should get into the habit of purchasing what sounds best to them, in their own system. Doesn't have to necessarily be terribly expensive. But of course, that cost is also dependent upon an individual's income and what they are willing to spend.

My Lavricables were given a 150-hour burn-in prior to shipping, so their good sound straight out of the shipping box was not a Hugh surprise. Well, they are improving as time passes. I have to say that they present a fabulous pairing of much transparency and very open sound with really excellent tone/timbre/harmonic overtones. Nuance retrieval (Retention?) is impressive.

They are providing an upper tier level of SQ for a very manageable cost. An added feature is they are very flexible, light and non-bulky. I am very pleased with the outcome of this purchase. I strongly recommend them for consideration for those shopping in their price range.

Charles

@ghdprentice 

"The very best I have heard and worst have been silver."

I concur. Synergistic Research Foundation cables were my first foray into all silver cables and they were better than Audioquest's best copper...but Lavricables simply beat their silver.  Since Synergistic is incredibly secretive about their conductor size and geometry, there is no real telling what's under the sheath. Lavricables are clear and you see it all.  Not that seeing makes it sound better.

My current opinion is that using Teflon as a dielectric insulation is the real secret and second it's geometry.

Sounds like you have found a very cost effective silver solution. Congratulations

Yes, glad you understood, and this is my only point. There is no attempt to make a broad sweeping statement in regard to all silver cables in all and every audio system. As we both know, simply too many variables at play. I am just happy to say that for whatever reason the silver cables I have chosen have proven splendid in my particular system. Nothing more.

Charles

I have had copper, silver coated copper, and pure silver cables in my system, at a number of different cost levels. I will say that pure copper tends to come through as copper at every level. But, beyond that… it is the overall “system”… geometry, coatings, wrap, conductors, size… etc. that determines the sound quality. The very best I have heard and worst have been silver. Nordost Odin 2… is simply incredible… some other silver have had me clasping  my hands over my ears. 
 

Sounds like you have found a very cost effective silver solution. Congratulations. 

@ghdprentice

Thank you. I agree with regard to the settling in process. It is just very encouraging for the early listening impression to be so satisfying. These are legitimately very good High End power cables for a quite reasonable (IMO) cost.

My audio system is now comprised of all pure silver cabling and the tonality/timbre is just so natural and inviting. Whatever issues some other listeners have had with silver wire cables has eluded my experience. I also believe that all of the cables being unshielded is very likely a contributing factor for the very good sound.

Charles

@charles1dad 

Thanks for sharing. Great hearing your impressions. Look forward to additional reports… I am sure you noticed that moving cables results in the need for additional time in the system to settle down. 

I received 3 Grand cables and 1 Master (DAC or CD transport LPS). I have listened to the 3 Grands (SET mono blocks and line stage power supply). If Lavricables say Master suits your needs, I’d trust their judgment. Their product is high quality for certain.

Charles

@charles1dad 

Awesome! :D I cannot wait to get mine, although I had to settle for the Master line as they couldn't build me a Grand line with a C7 connection.

In case anyone may be interested, I received my Lavricable power cables. They underwent a 150-hour burn-in process prior to shipment. To get straight to the point , these are excellent and I'm very happy that I decided to give them a chance. I do not know exactly how power cables contribute to affecting sound quality, but they do.

I have been using Coincident power cables purchased new 13 years ago. They are very high quality 6N pure multi strand copper and shielded, very well made. They sound terrific in my audio system. Due to my success with silver IC/SC I became curious about silver power cords. The only way to solve that curiosity was to try some, so here I am.

Lavricable Grand power cables do not blow away the Coincident nor is there a "night and day" difference. The Grand cable is at this early stage as clear and transparent as the Coincident. But right away I noted distinctions between them.

The Grand is fuller and a bit warmer in tonality (Meat on the bone effect). Instruments has more body, weight and presence.

More reach out and touch tactility. They dig deeper into the nuance and subtleties of the music. They reveal more of the harmonics and intricacies of jazz guitar chords for example, More awareness of a drummer's brushes on cymbals and skin of the drums. Uncovering more of the growl of the tenor or baritone saxophone etc.

They provide more of an open 3-D space with increased apparent density of the individual performers. The thing is the Coincident did all of these various things quite well. The Grand takes this further. I love the combination of very high resolution with a very tactile natural sound. Not a hint of a clinical, sterile dry or analytical character, just very natural. 

I'm very happy with what I'm hearing and will keep these silver unshielded cables. They have very similar impact as when I placed the Ocellia Silve Reference IC/SC in my system. Fuller bodied tone, increased harmonic overtones awareness and better exposure of the micro detail/nuances. I just have not encountered the thinness or brightness that others have complained about silver wire. 

I do not know what accounts for my different outcomes but that's my listening experience thus far. @guakus thanks for starting this thread. I doubt that I would have come across Lavricables otherwise.

Charles

@sns

With regard to the discussion earlier today about balanced isolation transformer power cable needs. Here’s Lavricables description of the Grand power cable.

”New carefully braided 30 core pure silver mains cable.
• 10 cores of 5N solid silver wire AWG28 are used for Active line and 10 ones for Neutral in order to transfer AC voltage.
• 10 cores of silver plated copper 0.3mm diameter are used for Earth line”

Charles

@guakus That is indeed rather interesting geometry, generally you find silver clad copper in most cabling combining silver and copper. I've long been interested in cable with novel ways of using various metals, Siltech is another company that mixes and matches metallurgy in various ways, enjoyed an audition with one of their digital cables some years ago.

@sns

I don’t have a pure Silver PC, but the Shunyata Research Alpha cable I am using has a silver core conductor. The geometry is interesting. There is a shielded, insulated 8awg silver conductor in the center. Then it is surrounded by an intricate weave of 8awg copper for the other conductor as an outer shell. Then there is a braided shield for ground. So this system gets the fast current needed for delicate dynamics as well as a strong copper conductor for more robust mid tones, mid bass, and bass.

Unfortunately, Lavricables is unable to make a power cable that uses IEC C7 as a connector. They are unable to acquire a decent IEC C7 plug :(. So sadly, I will never be able to use their awesome PC on this system.

Apparently, the best C7 connector out there is Wattgate’s. As a result I will have to stick with the Kimber Palladian for my powered speakers. Which is all copper. At least it is insulated in Teflon and has a massive noise filter. I cannot complain, it’s a detailed and ultra-quiet PC for the price. :)

@charles1dad I too am interested in what a silver wire PC would bring to table, report back on your findings.

@sns

No doubt that trying to achieve/maintain an optimal balance is a worthy objective. I will say that I am very happy with the current sound quality of my system. Which again consist of silver wire speaker cable/IC and copper wire power cables. So, I believe I have a very good reference point to make comparisons with.

I certainly understand the idea/notion of too much of a good thing. However I am very impressed by what high quality silver wire brings to the table. I am very eager and curious to see how this material plays out in a power cable application.If it doesn’t work out or a step taken backwards, I will simply go back to my terrific Coincident copper power cables. With eyes wide open I am very willing to try the silver and see (Hear) what happens.

Thanks for your information with regard to the use of a balanced isolation AC transformer such as the BPT. Fortunately the Lavricables utilize pure silver for their hot and neutral conductors (With identical quality and quantity). Silver plated copper is used for the ground wire.

Charles

@charles1dad Never occurred to me silver PC would be a voicing I'd seek, YMMV per usual. For me, keeping silver and copper in good balance has been key, spot on for the last few years.

One adjustment made with pc's in just the past couple months. We both run BPT PC, @williewonka  made me aware balanced PC should have balanced power cables as well, balanced in the sense of having exact same conductor on neutral and hot. Recently changed my Helix Image (williewonka design) from asymmetrical hot and neutral to symmetrical, in my case going to VH Audio Airlock on both hot and neutral. This change on both pc to dac and Statement, extremely nice improvement, higher level of transparency vs prior.

Point is, for those of us using balanced isolation transformer based pc, make sure power cables have exact same hot and neutral conductors.

@charles1dad You might be in for a new awakening, but we shall see.  I think it’s great that you’re willing to try something so different.  That’s the spice of life.  

@soix

Just to be clear my Coincident power cable has been replaced in their line with a newer version that has OCC copper and revised cable geometry. No doubt an improvement over my older generation (Yet excellent) cable. I have considered these latest Pure copper -OCC and imagine that they are truly excellent given their track record. Yet the allure of the silver beckons at less cost than the OCC Coincident (Who historically has always priced very fairly).

I just find that well implemented and good quality silver just seem to get the resolution, openess and tone/timbre so right!

Charles

@soix

So my audio system system is based upon a tube foundation. A Canadian brand, Coincident (Not sure if you are familiar with them). 300b SET mono blocks and Line stage which utilizes the 101D (DHT) tube. They aren’t what some may stereotype as “Tubey “. They strive for purity of sound/tonality and avoiding gratuitous coloration, but rather preserving the natural color and harmonics. In my opinion they have succeeded smashingly.

Their power cable adhere to the same goal , pure, transparent with minimal editorializing. Constructed with 6N copper and shielded. They have been my power cables since bought new in 2009 along with the sibling Coincident components. As mentioned previously, my Ocellia Reference speaker cable/IC are silver.

The current power cables are just wonderful.
But given my sheer satisfaction with the silver cables, I am very curious to experience silver power cables . Lavricables offers this opportunity for very reasonable cost of entry. So, here I go.

Very good quality shielded copper versus unshielded pure silver. I’ll admit that the Coincident copper power cables are truly satisfying (13 years).

Charles

Thanks @charles1dad I will be very interested in your findings. Cables are obviously very system and taste dependent, but I’ve got a feeling these guys might have a thing going on that is really undercutting the big guys on silver cables. I don’t know how they do it, but what I hear is top notch sound. This is only from my headphone system and interconnects only, but if the quality of those is anything like their other cables I think your gonna be very happy unless you like warm, syrupy, and colored sound. These cables are not for that purpose. To me, they’re dead on balls neutral and true to the sound of the music. Just my take, and hope the new power cables please you and treat you well. Cables, as you well know, are a hit and miss option given your tastes and system. But my take is these guys shoot it straight down the fairway — no coloration and all the detail and 3D imaging/soundstage you could want. Like I said, I have no experience with their power cords, but if they in any way replicate the house sound I’ve heard in their other cables I think you’ll be very happy if you’re not looking for a warm tone control. They very, very much sound like my excellent Acoustic Zen Silver Ref interconnects that I’ve had in my system for 20 years, but at a huge discount. I’ve now got Cullen power cables in my HeadFi system, but when I get my amp back from being upgraded at SMcAudio I’m gonna be looking for new power cords and would very much value your thoughts. Please let me know what current PCs you’re comparing them to so I have a basis for comparison.  I have a real feeling this is a sleeper company offering quality silver cables at something like half the cost of the larger manufacturers.  I will need to see how they perform in my home system when I get my amp back because a HeadFi system just gets you only so far and I don’t have 100% confidence in my impressions of 3D imaging/Soundstage etc. to make a more accurate review.  But they’re damn good in my HeadFi system. If you really like your power cables I’ll be installing them in my home system when I get my amp back.  I’m honestly already leaning toward them given the sound quality of their interconnects.  What most intrigues me is how silver cables can sound detailed yet tonally correct.  If you were to ask me I’d assume they were cryogenically treated because they have that smooth kind of sound. They remind me a lot of the Voodoo interconnects I reviewed years ago and also my much beloved AZ Silver Refs, but at like half the cost.  I have a feeling you’ll love their power cords, but let’s see. 

@soix 

I will do so. The communication with Lavricables has been commendable, very prompt and informative. I placed my order this afternoon and added their 150-hour burn-in service. As you wrote above, I do also believe they are a maker of fine quality products and fly below the radar. I'll find out soon.

Charles

Well, I have to agree to a certain extent with wesheadley’s rant about cable costs.  So often we’re told that  Most of the cost is associated with R&D and terminations.  Really?  So why is it when there is an incremental change in the length of cable the cost goes up exponentially (50% in some cases).  I realize its supply and demand but really!!

@charles1dad I’d be very interested to hear your impressions after burn-in of course. 

@soix

Thank you for your reply and I understand your situation with regard to making comparisons. I have found some impressions from other owners of Lavricables who concur with your experience.

Well made product.

Use of high quality silver.

Exceptional sound quality.

Given what I find to be a very reasonable price, I’m going to try their power cables and just listen. My Ocellia pure  silver speaker and IC cables have performed marvelously in my system for quite some time. I am sure their silver power cable is equally as good, but it’s quite expensive. So I’m willing to take a chance with the less costly Lavricables and see what happens. I also like the fact that they are unshielded, my Ocellia cables are unshielded  and I love what they do.

@lalitk

I’ll look out for your email.

Charles

@charles1dad 

PM sent regarding Lavri Cables. 

@charles1dad I think my Lavricables are balanced and my AZ cables single ended so I can’t really compare. This is my headphone system. My amp is currently at SMcAudio for full upgrades, but it is also single ended so I can’t really give you a straight answer. Sorry. I can only say the LavriCables sound superb in my HeadFi system, and the AZ cables sound equally superb in my home system. To me, they both have very similar sound characteristics — those being very detailed but also with excellent tonality so really the best of both worlds. All that said, I have to say the LavriCables are an extremely good value relatively speaking and I honestly don’t think you can go wrong there. Sorry, I have no experience with LavriCable power cords, but given my experience with their interconnects I’d absolutely recommend giving them a try. I think this company is an unsung hero that flies beneath the radar and offers extremely high value for the materials and build quality you get.  I recommended them to another member here, and he gave rave reviews saying his LavriCables way outperformed his much more expensive other cables, FWIW.

@soix 

Hi,

Have you had the chance to compare your Lavicables and Acoustic Zen silver cables? I'm giving serious thought to trying the Lavicable Grand Line power cables. I'm set and content with my Ocellia Reference silver ICs and speaker cable. Given my success with these , now curious to try silver wired power cables.

Charles

@wesheadley 

I admit that the room I have this system in is not very good. I have made some room tweaks, like sound absorbing panels on the walls, the Synergistic Research FEQX4, Synergistic Research Tranquility Basik, DIY cable risers and ISOAcoustic vibration control products on the speakers and subwoofer.  All to mitigate this room's "issues."

At present, this setup costs around $10,000.  It's not the most expensive setup, but definitely isn't the cheapest. :)

I have some Musicable for speakers, from Germany-- claimed (I say claimed because I have never even tried to verify it) to be made of pure silver. It sounds good. In my system, perhaps a tad bright, but definitely good. The main thing for speaker cable for me is pure materials, proper weave that works in my room, and no iron or other metals in the single path-- especially in the connectors-- both male and female. Where I’m at is in room correction mode. I’m getting more improvement from adding sound absorption and dampening here and there than I think I’m going to get from upgrading components at this point-- and I’ve been doing this for a very long time now. You may be at a point where you know your system inside and out, have a great room that’s not messing things up too much, and are going for the harder to get improvements.

It does not surprise me that you have found a cable that costs way less than another that sounds better that its more expensive peer. It may be that in your system, silver wire gives the sound the character that you prefer.

In the end, your ears alone are the judge. Better, or not.

I just know from long experience that more money does not equal better sound, and that there are many other factors that are at least as important.

I have an acquaintance that has spent a fortune on his system-- way into the six figures-- but his room sucks, his setup is wrong, and it’s just plain sad about all that money and gear adding up to a very mediocre sound. But try telling him that and you’ll hear a long rant about what this costs and what that costs. That’s confirmation bias on steroids!

@wesheadley 

What sounds best is always going to be subjective to the listener.  What sounds best to me, on this system, is Silver.

What I have discovered, after over 30 years of dealing with cables, is that speed and accuracy of the signal is what is important. How fast can the signal get to the speaker and maintain accuracy.  Then the system and speaker itself have to relay that accuracy and speed. Let me give you an example.  Your cable sends a series of musical notes to your speaker, but the speaker's driver hadn't finished executing the physical movements required for the series of notes that came before it. As a result it cannot properly execute the remaining notes. This in turn creates distortion, lack of accuracy, and loss of detail, and smeared layering. You can solve this with better engineered speakers or better  engineered amps and in some cases better engineered cables.

One way I can describe this, is through explaining the evolution of this system. This system used to have smaller powered speakers.  They were a class A/B stereo, linear amp. The rectifiers were small as were the caps.  So it was easy and quick to fill the capacitors and get the speed and accuracy required to have the drive complete the necessary movements before the next series of notes; especially with the massive power back end I had at the time. However, it was missing rich mid-bass because the physical size of the bass drivers were too small. So I upgraded to larger powered speakers.  This time they are two mono class A/B linear amps and require more power.  I wrongfully assumed the overpowered back end I had would be more than enough.  I was wrong.  It couldn't deliver the same incredible sound as their smaller versions; though I was getting better mid bass. I tried rolling the OEM fuse for a Synergistic Purple Fuse.  This didn't solve the problem, but did give me better holography and imaging. Then I upgraded the main sound cable from Synergistic Foundation to Synergistic Atmosphere Lv1. This created more clarity, but it still wasn't at the same level of realism as the previous setup.  Then I upgraded the mains power cable from Shunyata Research's Delta to Alpha.  That did the trick. The Alpha power cable was more robust and was more than capable of keeping the rectifier open and filling the capacitor so quickly, the system never had any delay in power draw.  It could also burst with more power and empty of power much faster and rapidly than the previous power cable. This allowed the speaker's drivers to quickly commit to  full movement and be back at the ready for the next series of notes, eliminating any flabbiness.  Then I added some DIY Earth ground boxes to the speakers that finally created the sound I was enjoying before on the smaller system.  Throughout the life of this system, there were a few songs here and there that didn't sound as good as I have heard them on better systems. Like Chuck Magione's "Feels So Good."  On better systems, I have heard the acoustic guitar in the opening more clearly, loudly and with an echo. I was unable to achieve that on this system; at this time. On this configuration of the system, the acoustic guitar sounded distant and its attack and decay of the echo was being cut off.  I chalked it up to the limitations of the speakers or the DAC. But that wasn't true.

I won't go into detail on why I decided to move away from Synergistic Research cables; that is a whole other thread I posted. Needless to say, I was suggested Lavricables on that thread and I bought a pair for my headphones.  The details this cable revealed were far more than I would have expected. Those details weren't present on my system.  So I had the idea of getting the same level of cable for this system to see if those details would emerge.  They did and then some. Now, the acoustic guitar on "Feels So Good" is louder, clearer, more up front and has the attack and decay echo I remembered hearing from "better" systems.

I have heard reviews talk about "cold" or "warm" sounds from Silver and Copper respectively. The Lavricable, though made of silver, transcended that description. It doesn't sound "cold" or "warm."  It just sounds correct; more realistic, more detailed.  That's the sound profile that best fits this system.

 

Nice rant. Have you heard a $30K turntable

Why thank you. Yes, a couple in that range. VPI and an SME in that range. Both sounded great, but I’ll tell you the same thing as I did regarding cables-- the differences are subtle-- and NOT "better than" or "worse than". The factor that really jumps out at you on a high-end table is the cartridge-- where there are many flavors to choose from at every conceivable price. I have a set of cartridges that range from $500 to $9,000. They each have their strengths and weaknesses and the table will impact what you can get out of them to a degree. But again, it’s more about matching and synergy that it is about price. Far more. When you get into the thousand dollar on up area you are usually getting the best materials and they will resolve more micro-detail. But none of this speaks to better or best-- just differences-- so you go with what you like.

I’ve also heard some pretty disappointing sounding, very expensive turntables-- not because there was anything wrong with them-- other than the SETUP-- which is a huge factor.

I think people get far too hung-up on price as some kind of status badge. Boring and wrong.

Do you think that at the supercar level that those cars can be ranked on performance by price? No. There is no evidence of that. Anymore than there is any evidence that a more expensive cable by nature just sounds better than a less expensive one (assuming quality build and materials). It’s a myth that many cling to, but the evidence just ain’t there and never has been.

Silver cable does not sound better than copper cable. All quality cables have subtle differences and much of that is system, power, or even room dependent. It's like getting into an argument about which bottle of a high-end wine tastes better. There is definitely little relation to the price when you get to that level. The market does not set the price on a thing like that, it's set on scarcity, taste preferences, collectability and so on.

Again, no one can rank a set of high quality cables from best to worst based upon price. No one. Want to bet? Here's a test, you rank the same set of five different cables, three times, from best to worst. Should be easy-peasy right?

@wesheadley

Nice rant. Have you heard a $30K turntable… and a $300K turntable or amp? Could you please document your sound preferences and equipment in each of these categories? Or is this just theoretical?

Understand that the way "premium" cables are designed, is that the top-most, flag-ship, cable is the literal best materials and geometry that the company can offer.  Every model below that is a broken version of the model above it

I disagree that “every model below is broken version …”.  I just purchased Siltech Classic Interconnects which has high purity silver with gold to fill in the gaps and they’re in the 9th generation.  These cables got a fantastic review by Alan Sircom who’s auditioned way more cables than most others.  The top of the line Siltech uses extremely pure silver.  Siltech is heavily into metallurgy.  Just because one does not purchase top-of-the-line, doesn’t mean all else is broken.

@wesheadley 

Understand that the way "premium" cables are designed, is that the top-most, flag-ship, cable is the literal best materials and geometry that the company can offer.  Every model below that is a broken version of the model above it. It isn't "confirmation bias."  Conformation bias is a cheap cop-out by suggesting anyone who hears a difference that another is not able to, is lying. It takes the position that the nay-sayer is more correct because they are taking a skeptical stance.

Going back to my OP, I have determine a drastic enough difference in sound quality from a cable I spent $1000.00 on, to a cable I spent $500.00. Where the materials and geometry in the cheaper cable was FAR superior over the more expensive cable.  And, the cheaper cable was the flag-ship model, versus the expensive cable barely being the mid-range for that company. I found it interesting that a European company was making a cable this good for so cheap.  That's literally the entire point.

Arguing that I couldn't possibly make such a determination is disingenuous, at best.  Considering no one on this thread, much less the entire audience on Audiogon, has a setup like mine. With that said, I am not recommending any product to anyone.  I am just offering my testimony on my discovery.  Either it is interesting to other people or it isn't.  I don't feel like I have to justify my setup or audio choices to anyone.  Largely because *I* am the only who will be listening to it. However, since these threads are searchable via GOOGLE or BING, it is for posterity and information to the lurker who might stumble upon this thread looking for answers to their audio quandaries. Much like I did when I found this site and have learned a lot from other members and used their input to inform my decisions on audio upgrades to my unique system.


 

Well you’re kind of putting words in my mouth so I’ll clarify;

Regarding cables-- beyond a certain level of build and materials quality, you, nor anyone else, would be able to rank a series of cables -- all of good build and quality materials-- from best to worst basted upon price.

Your HDMI argument is noted-- but at minimum it’s moot because we are (at least I thought) discussing analog transmission, not digital.

Silver does have a different sonic signature than copper, and going from one type of metal to the next in a continuous circuit can effect transmission quality in a negative way, but at the level we’re talking about here-- which ain’t Radio Shack-- differences are just not very qualitative.

In other words, better cables have different extremely minor sonic characteristics. Like I said, you would never be able to rank cables by their audio quality based upon price assuming good build and materials quality.

That’s right, you would never be able to rank say five cables between say $200 and $5000 per cable in a blind test. No one can. No one ever has. It’s just audio booshwa.

So buy what you like, spend $20k on a cable if it makes you happy, but don’t kid yourself. Confirmation bias and the placebo effect plays a far greater role than you think.

@wesheadley 

We get it, you aren't a believer in better cables equals better sound. Duly noted. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean you're the authority on whether it exists or not.

Sure, it could have been a defective cable...or....it could have been over priced for the materials. Synergistic Research is notoriously secretive about their cable production.

You want to wax specifics on how a cable can't reproduce 20-20K hz?  Easy, conductivity.  Silver is more conductive than Copper.  That is a fact. Signal will travel faster to source on Silver than Copper will. FACT! High frequency travels more efficiently and is reproduced better over Silver.  That is why high end video cables use either silver or silver plated copper. That is why high frequency treble replicates better over Silver. Go read the white papers on HDMI specification.  See how they had to alter the cable geometry in order to get the speeds needed to sync video and sound.  Gee, if all conductive materials are the same and conduct the same, then why did they need to create specific geometry, over a short distance, just to sync audio and video and later to provide more data throughput for 4K and now 8K. "But, that's digital!"  Uh huh....a 1 or a 0 over what?  Copper.  Using what method of travel?  Electricity.  How does it know what a 1 or a 0 is?  Whether an ANALOG signal is either a full square wave or a completely flat wave.  What does it do if the square wave has curved edges?  It rejects that bit.  What if the flat signal ha a slight bump?  It rejects that bit. So....if you can ensure that your analog "digital" signals have perfect square waves and perfect flat lines, you can guarantee that there are no rejected bits or errors.  So...how do you do that?  With better conductive materials, geometry and shielding. It's just plain facts. Whether you agree with it or not.

The truth is, Synergistic Research's cable simply didn't have the materials nor the geometry to best Lavricable's cable. By having Copper conductors touching Silver conductors, the frequencies meld together and diminish Silver's higher conductive rate. Lavricable uses only pure silver.  Synergisitic's RCA connector is Silver plated Copper.  Labricable's is solid Silver. Lavircable's cable simply conducts better, and faster than Synergistics.  That's just a cold hard fact.  If Synergistic's cable is defective, it speaks more to their quality control at $1000 than Lavricable's at $500. Either way, *I* win.

Besides, you've really defeated your entire argument.  Because you don't believe better cables equals better sound...so it wouldn't matter if $1000 or $100 was spent.

Yup. In this particular case, it’s absolutely true. The specs are ever better. Also, I have proof. The $1000 cable was unable to reproduce a specific note that this cable is capable of doing.

So you have proof? Evidence please. A defective $1000 cable might have audible issues with frequency reproduction, that’s about it.

A $1000 cable that cannot reproduce certain frequencies within the 20-20k range, has, shall we say, "issues". Or maybe you have a long run of analog cable-- that can easily pick-up interference. Deal with that and the cable suddenly works as expected.

You make the claim that better specifications mean the gear sounds better? Most specifications are meaningless, while some matter a great deal. The last publication that took the steadfast opinion that better specs equals better sound was "Stereo Review"-- decades ago. It was pretty much non-sense then, and it is nonsense now.

Beyond a certain level of spec, things like your ROOM, electrical interference, your unique combination of gear, and the overall quality of the power in your home-- all of that plays a far greater role in how a system/component(s) sounds than any given spec. Unless of course, something is broken.

Fantasy football, is, after all, still a fantasy, despite all of the numbers.

@wesheadley 

"Does a $5,000 cable sound better than a $500 cable? Nope."

Yup.  In this particular case, it's absolutely true. The specs are ever better. Also, I have proof. The $1000 cable was unable to reproduce a specific note that this cable is capable of doing. That for me is more than enough evidence. I even stated which specific materials, what specific song, what specific note.  So it can be tested, peer reviewed, the whole shebang.

You honestly think a manufacturer is REQUIRED to price their products based on what they're made of? Like there is some contract that states if you use Silver or Teflon as a dielectric you have to charge a specific amount of money?  There's no wiggle room in your theory for a company that is able to get better materials for cheaper and doesn't need to mark up so high to make a profit so they can reach more buyers?  Again, this is a difference between a European market and the US market.

Besides, based on what you're saying the audio quality should diminish if I buy a $300,000 amplifier on sale for $20,000. 🙄

This hobby may work the way it works for you, but not for me. I have not had as much success treating this as more expensive = better. What I have had more success with is, Specific Features and Specs = better, no matter what the cost is/was.

"You get what you pay for" in high-end audio is more of a joke than a truism.

Do you really, honestly think that a $300,000 amplifier blows away a similarly specced’ $20,000 amplifier? Wrong.

Does a $5,000 cable sound better than a $500 cable? Nope.

There are differences in the sonic character of different products and it is equally wrong to think that all amps, cables, preamps, etc., all sound the same. They don’t. But in this hobby people are snookered by the completely phony adage that spending more gets you more.

Who would spend say, $300,000 on a turntable and not want to believe that it is flat out superior to a $30,000 turntable? Or that a $20,000 phono cartridge blows away a $2,500 cartridge?

It’s all confirmation bias. And in many cases, it’s just ego.

Think of most of this stupid-money pricing as you would about fine jewelry. It may look cool, but most of it is worth what the parts are worth and the rest is just bling. Unless it’s collectible, then the collectibles market for that type of stuff determines what it's worth. No better than or worse than.

Do you think that the most expense collectible vinyl records cost what they do because the music is better or the recording quality is better? Nah.

This hobby is so full of BS that is sometimes boggles the mind.

In the case of cables, the really expensive ones, their price has nothing to do with the parts cost or the R&D (lol) cost. The profit margins on these price-bloated items are truly, truly obscene. Why? Market positioning and marketing and YOUR bias.

Now don’t get me wrong, some products cost far more to build than others. Speakers for example. But even a $1000 speaker can sound as good as or better than a $5000 speaker.

It’s just the way this crazy hobby works. It is what it is, but more money equaling more sound quality, FOR SURE, ain’t what it is.

Where things get the craziest in in the aspirational gear-- priced to create an exclusive club of owners, and hopefully, made to last a lifetime and designed to be be (in the eyes of the beholder) beautiful-- like a Ferrari.

Stuff’s worth whatever people will pay for it, but it is not necessarily better because of it.

@guakus Got it. Par for the course with cable threads, reason I mentioned finding them rather worthless. I have no problem with anything you've said.

@sns 

No one directly accused you of shaming and belittlement. I made a statement that having a discussion about cables is perfectly fine but belittlement and shaming isn't.  It wasn't aimed at you, or I would have said so.  However, there have been plenty on this thread that have.

@guakus Wow, I'm shaming and belittling, I think not. Nothing i stated in post was an objective pronouncement on worthlessness of commercial cables! I simply stated my own experience with cables and my present view.

Also, when I speak of diy I'm' not talking about building a forge, drawing machines, dielectric production, diy in cable making means assembling various commercially available components with recipes or designs other's freely distribute. Many in the community have discovered wonderful cables using this method, doesn't mean commercial products objectively inferior. Fact is I continue to use commercial cables alongside diy. And there is a wide variety of raw wire and insulated wire, connectors, all cable building supplies at various price points.

@sns

I disagree. Discussions on cables are very informative and have on many occasions helped me decide what cables are best or what cables exist for my particular application.

I have built several cables in my system but the DIY knowledge that exists on the internet is very limited and all I have found seem to focus on basic geometry. Such as a basic twist of two to three conductors and on occasion employ an external wrap of the "ground cable" over the main bulk of conductors. In addition to this, the quality of materials available for DIY are generally not the super-high end you can find in higher tier cables offered by premium cable manufacturers. For example, you can’t order solid, pure silver cables that are encased in Teflon dielectric. Also, connectors you buy have to be 3rd party. I know of no one who owns an RCA, Stereo-Pin or XLR mold where they can forge their own solid copper or silver connectors or have the tech to plate such connectors. So, even if one makes their own cable, they are still using materials someone else designed. For example, you cannot DIY a cable using the geometry found in Shunyata Research’s higher end power cables. Their cables use two completely different formats in the positive/negative conductors. One conductor is a standard, straight silver bundle...but...the 2nd conductor is a thick, concentric circular stack of braided/meshed copper that surrounds the silver conductor. Like a tube. There are various Teflon dielectrics and other materials used to separate and shield. There is just no way to purchase these parts and make it. You’d have to buy Teflon coated silver and then braid the copper yourself and stack it. No one has that kind of time.

Where it concerns filters, you’d need to understand the mathematical formulas used to measure the electric flow of the cable you made, based on how well it conducts and how long it is. Then you’d need to attach a filter that was created to specifically affect those measurements. That’s hard to do on one’s own. You can use pre-fabricated components, but you certainly aren’t going to forge your own Ferrite cores. So you have to hope someone already makes a filter that affects the specific electric measurements of your cable.

"How does one ascertain value of any cable for their particular system from this chaos?"

I start with materials. Having spent 30 years buying various cables to use on various systems, I have narrowed down what materials work best and what their function on sound is. If you want a warmer sound with rolled off high frequencies, go with copper cable that uses Polyethylene (PE) as a dielectric. If you want ultimate levels of clarity and clinical accuracy, get silver conductors that use Teflon or Flurocarbon as a dielectric. Beyond materials, it’s geometry, filters, and active systems.

It’s not unlike modifying a car for speed. You can buy a Lamborghini, which was designed for speed and looks beautiful. You needn’t do anything else. OR, you can buy a cheap stock car and modify it with Stage 6 turbo, cam shafts, short gears, direct fuel injectors, cold air intakes, body kits, NOS kits, and various other mods to make that car go as fast if not faster than the Lamborghini. Some like the challenge of modifying a slower car, others prefer the status of owning an Italian sports car.

To each their own. Discussion is perfectly fine. Belittlement and shaming is not.

Cable discussions are likely the most worthless in audio. Not worthless in the sense they don't provide some valuable information, but in the sense of eliciting no value for me in that virtually every cable has both detractors and proponents. For some its best cable ever, for others the worst, and everything in between. Sometimes this applies to only particular models, others, entire line from manufacturer. How does one ascertain value of any cable for their particular system from this chaos?

Many years ago, curious about all the cable hubbub, I auditioned extremely large amount of cables from lending library at Cable Company. I auditioned speaker, IC, digital, power at various price levels, med to upper echelon. This over many years and various system configurations. While I discovered differences and favorites, I wouldn't conclude any cable of any kind, at any price point being a world changer. I generally found there was price/performance correlation, but law of diminishing returns and different flavors impacted my purchasing decisions, ie. most expensive not always best for my situation at that moment.

Result is these days I build my own cables based on recipes others share freely. I base build decisions on metallurgy, dialectics used and design, these cables have been far and away the best price/performance value cables I've experienced. Various metallurgy in wire and connectors all have their place, and dialectic very important, closest to vacuum best here, skin effect very important.

@russbutton In regards to carnival show attractions, yes.  There were no such things as audio cables in his day. So, whatever you are implying, makes you equally wrong.

P.T. Barnum was right.

I’ve recently borrowed a FrontRow Audience usb cable and speaker cables to try along with a few other brands including a DIY built ranging in price from $200.00 -$9000.00 for the Audience speaker cables . I was bold over by the Audience brand especially their usb cable . 

Great discussion!! And thanks to @soix for wrapping Kevlar around this thing before it got ugly(er).

I think we all enjoy our "David and Goliath" moments when we discover a hidden jewel that "defies the gravity" of a competitive market and meets, or beats, the performance of established brands. It happens in audio. And, tools. And, speed parts. And, wine. Etc. The "feel good" is there regardless of the category. I think we can list other examples.

It doesn’t mean that the established brands are the "bad guys". "Market value" means exactly that. If a product is producing at, or near, volume targets, market share, and (most importantly) satisfied customers at $5k, then the product is worth $5k. Period. The existence of a little known entity that "whacks it pretty good" for half the price doesn’t make the make brand product worth any less in the marketplace, nor should they huddle up and go into the panic mode. Or go into counciling to relieve themselves from a guilt complex. As with any other product category mentioned above, a well-reseached enthusiasts can, and will, bypass the "normal channels" and connect with a product or service that serves their needs are far less cost. That’s what they do. And, their lives are better for it.

"Fancy connectors" most often produce significant audible benefits. Yes, they add to the cost.

Just some comments about the "business" of the audio business:

I was fortunate to be invited to join a profession group of audio retailers. I say fortunate because were are in a small/medium market of a population of 180k who are normally "uninvited" to the group. Dealers represented the "best of the best" dealers from coast to coast. New York, LA, Dallas, Chicago, Miami, etc. We ALL looked at the same price sheets and were offered the same business programs. I can only speak of the audio industry, but the costs/markup is uniform from state to state. There are no major variations.

The net, net profit of these dealers averaged in the high "single digits" as a whole. I would have thought I died and went to Heaven if my lifetime net earnings reached 5%.

Michael Berger wrote a book: Emyth Revisited. The "E" represents "entrepreneur". The author’s premise is that it is a myth that people go into business for themselves because they are entrepreneurs. They go into business because they are "technicians" who love doing the work, and are discontent being managed by someone else. The dealer that goes into business to "save the world from bad sound" is often comprised with mediocre managerial skills and entrepreneural energy to make that enterprise a long-term success. Yes, I can can acknowledge other factors: bad customer service, non-competitive pricing, etc. to the demise of merchants, but just want to drive home the point that most dealers did not enter the business arena to get rich. It was to escape a working environment that was not particularly rewarding for them, or to provide an elevated level of service impossible under the constraints of their current employment.

The next time you’re in an audio store, ask the person serving you: "What brought you here?" The result will be a very human to human conversation that will, undoubtedly, elevate the relationship to a higher level and produce a more attentive and customer-focused response from the dealer or their representative.

But to convince me that there's any proportionate value of cables at the most expensive levels vs. a lot of electronics and speakers at the medium levels of price points is a tall order indeed.

But that’s not what he’s saying here.  In fact, the OP is saying the opposite that he’s found cables at less than half the price of his current cables that significantly outperformed his much pricier cables.  That’s pretty much the main point here, but if you want to expand it into how much one should spend on cables that’s a bigger subject that transcends what is really being discussed here.