Preamp Output Capacitor: Mundorf Supreme vs. Supreme Silver Oil

they had no bass (actually, they lost bass as they broke in).

The capacitor lost it capacitance after broke in ?

Why do you need all these Mundorfs after using Miflex KPCU?
What was wrong with  Miflex KPCU?
Did you try Jupiter Copper?

You sure they're the correct values?

@imhififan If you read a lot of capacitor discussions, you can see some other people finding that the bass response of the s/g/o decreases over the first 300 hours (e.g. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mundorf-silver-gold-in-oil-supreme-caps-any-good).

@noromance Yes, actually the original reason I started modifying the capacitors was because the miflexs were right on the edge of being too small for my amplifier's input impedance.

@alexberger Although the miflexs' had nice tonality, they presented a very flat image in my system. Adding in the Mundorfs put a lot more layering into the soundstage. It very much went from 2d to 3d.

Also, I just discovered the thread I cited above did have some s/g/o to silver in oil comparisons. It was hard to explicitly search for differences because the only difference in terms is gold (and people write out the cap names variably).

Looks like maybe supreme silver oils do have better bass.

@alexberger and I'll probably also try some Duelund tinned copper. Thinking about putting those on one output and one of the Mundorfs on the other.

Those Duelund tinned copper caps are so special. If you can afford those, they will easily surpass the Mundorf caps in every sonic area. I think you suspect that is true.  They are pricy! 

Yes, actually the original reason I started modifying the capacitors was because the miflexs were right on the edge of being too small for my amplifier's input impedance.

Be careful- just increasing capacitor values can get you into trouble. The output section probably the least, but in many cases, the designer is juggling the inductance that a larger capacitor has against the capacitance- and has arrived at a value that has the best compromise between bass bandwidth and coloration. Bass bandwidth good, coloration bad :)

(This is why we have direct coupled outputs on our preamps- this problem is avoided.)
There is a timing constant involved (which sounds like you might already know) the formula is F = 1/R x C x 2Pi
Its a bit inconvenient as stated, but if you replace 1,000,000 for the 1, then R will be in ohms, C will be in microfarads and F will be in Hz. Ideally you want the -3dB point (which is what this formula gives you) to be no more than 2Hz- allowing the preamp to then have no phase shift at 20Hz which will give you neutral bass. R in this case is the input impedance of the amplifier.

I'm in the same boat with Don Sachs II and 2 outputs. One for 100 kOhms (tube amplifier) and one for 20 Kohms (Accuphase). In the first one is a Miflex 0.47 uF and in the second one AudioCap Theta 3 uF bypassed by russian teflon 0.02 uF. Studying an upgrade for the second out but capacitors of 3 uF are very large. Maybe a Mundorf will fit. Interested in your topic. From Brazil.

@atmasphere Thanks Ralph, I've just been cheating by using the calculator at vh audio (https://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php). Fortunately because the pre is basically an advanced kit, I do have some ideas of what range is normal for use. 

I also just leaned that I can change the resistor on my amplifier (diy first watt f4s and sit3s) to a any value within a decent range. Moved both up to a 200k input impedance to allow for the use of smaller caps.

@grannyring and yes, definitely putting some Duelund's in. Unfortunately I didn't know my amp's input impedance was modifiable... I actually have to re-buy the exact same caps I sold you. It's been fun learning about building/modifying equipment. Still mostly playing Legos, but learning is fun.

@ricgoretti. If you look at my system pictures, you can see the Mundorfs in there, they're not large. I think they're 2uf, plenty of room. And despite some of the criticisms, I really do enjoy them. Especially if you've got a system that images nicely. If I had too much bass instead of too little, I'd be gushing about the supreme silver/gold/oils. Really beautiful tone and imaging. And not nearly as expensive as the Duelund and v-cap options. 

If you read a lot of capacitor discussions, you can see some other people finding that the bass response of the s/g/o decreases over the first 300 hours (e.g. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mundorf-silver-gold-in-oil-supreme-caps-any-good).

@cal3713 ,Thanks for the link, I just wondering what cause the bass response decreased.

@imhififan Yeah, no idea at all. I didn't really believe it until I experienced it. Loved the caps for the first few days and then the bass just receded. I switched over to the normal Supremes and it was back.

@grannyring Finally sprung for the duelund cast tinned copper. These capacitors are absolutely amazing. Now I have them in my dac (audio mirror tubadour III se), pre, and speaker crossover. They just sound so natural. 

They are easily the finest sounding cap I have ever used and I have used most of them 🤪 They are as you say so natural and real sounding.   

I have tried a lot of capacitors over the years and my finding with the Mundorf Silver/Oil is the same as mentioned above. If they maintained the sound of the initial 100 hours, it would be one of my favorite capacitors for a warmer tone. 
The capacitor I like for good tone as well as maintaining good detail is the DynamiCap. We switch over to these in our upper end Purity Audio Design Reference and Statement preamps with the Statement being the Stealth version.
For clarity and more 'in your face' the ClarityCap CMR are a very good capacitor. 

@ cal3713

How much better are the Deulunds tinned over the Miflex in your Sach's pre?

Thanks,
Wig

Hi @wig , a lot of people seem to love the Miflex's and I'm sure they are great performers in many systems.  In mine, they sounded good, but removed almost all the front to back layering that my system is capable of.  I really enjoyed the Sach's pre and was feeling content with it, but when I installed the Mundorf Supremes, all of a sudden I had another  2-3 feet of meaningful depth to the imaging.  I didn't know what I was missing, but in comparison, the Miflexs were almost two-dimensional. 

Moving up to Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oils added another foot to the depth of the imaging (and also reduced the bass to a level that I couldn't accept until I added in new subwoofer amplifiers that could boost my bass a bit). 

Moving on to the Duelund's probably took out that extra foot, but made the sound more real/natural.  They're also a little cleaner and more precise in terms of locating instruments in the soundstage.  

I think whether the Deulunds are worth it or not (vs the Miflexs) will really depend on the depth capabilities of your system's imaging. 

It's been too long for me to accurately comment, but I want to guess that they're more tonally similar than different (whereas V-Cap TFTFs and Mundorfs will definitely both shift the tone in different directions).  

Hope that helps.

@ cal3713

Thanks for your response, very informative and I will probably get those Deulunds Tinned as well. They are considered the best Caps one can buy...

My system is some what revealing but has the ability to convey depth, texture, large sound stage with you are there imaging.

Wig : )

@wig Finally checked out your system. Wish I could hear it, always wanted to hear those speakers. Hope the Duelunds work out... very curious to hear how you feel about the comparison.

they're more tonally similar than different (whereas V-Cap TFTFs and Mundorfs will definitely both shift the tone in different directions).  

We've used the V-Caps a lot and never run into anything like that FWIW.

@atmasphere I’ve seen a ton of people love them, but they just didn’t work in my system .  The ds pre has two outputs and so it was super easy to switch back and forth between the Mundorfs and vcaps. In my pre, with a pretty large cap (2uf) right on the output, going to the vcaps was like turning on a fluoresce light.

Guys,

Decided to go with V-Caps ODAM; many users says it beats the Deulund Cast head-on and much cheaper. Will give them a week on my cable cooker before adding to component and another week to settle in.

Can't wait to hear the differences Caps can make, word on the street is that it can elevate your component SQ 2-3X :)

Wig

@wig Interesting. Looking forward to the report...

& @atmasphere I also have absolutely no doubt that the vcap's sound amazing in your pre's. Would absolutely love to hear one. 

In my pre, with a pretty large cap (2uf) right on the output, going to the vcaps was like turning on a fluoresce light.

Did you give them adequate time to break in? We've got plenty of feedback that says that takes a while.


On paper, Teflon has the best characteristics of any dielectric (although at come frequencies polystyrene can be a little better, but polystyrene is all but extinct). So it should be no surprise that the Teflon also sounds better- lower dielectric constant, equivalent series resistance an so on.

Teflon is a kind of plastic.
Any plastic adds plastic coloration to sound.
Even for wires isolation cotton sounds more organic and natural that Teflon.

Does anybody try to bypass Duelunc Custom Cu capacitors 
with Duelund Bypass Sliver or Duelund bypass Cu-Sn?
How does it work?
Which kind of  Duelund bypass do you prefer?

@atmasphere Yeah, I had them in the pre for a couple months of daily listening... would still love to try the cutf and odams.

@alexberger I had the duelund silver bypass caps in my coincident Frankenstein’s (but only over the stock solen coupling caps) and really liked them. Could not hear any difference over the stock output caps in my pre though and sold them...

I have used and continue to use the Duelund silver and Sn-Cu bypass caps. Both are great. I find the Sn-cu, like the main Sn-Cu cap, are the best caps out there. They are simply beautiful sounding with all the detail and openness one could ever want, but served up in a natural and unforced manner. They also have great body and weight which is my only knock of Teflon caps which can sound colder and a tad leaner. 

The Vcaps have a sound as all caps do. I am also trying the combo of ODAMs bypassed with Vcap CuTF. I don’t expect them to sound as good as the Duelund Sn-Cu, but we will see. I am sure this combo will deliver clarity in spades, but will that have that wonderful tone and beauty of the Duelund Sn-Cu? I have my doubts.

Yeah, I had them in the pre for a couple months of daily listening... would still love to try the cutf and odams.

The Cutf is really the only part we've been playing for some years. My comments are based on them. We installed the ODAMs in one of our preamps (UV-1) and they were quite nice.

@grannyring please do report back. Looking forward to hearing the outcome. 

@ grannyring

Looking forward to your evaluation on those ODAMs; mine should arrive on Saturday and then onto the cooker and should have them installed by next weekend.

Wig

Wig. They are said to perform even better, great results, with a .01uf Vcap CuTF as a parallel/bypass cap. That is how I am using them.  

@ grannyring

Thanks for the tips! I think we have stumbled on some special caps that does about everything right and it's musical...

Wig 😁

I have an update. I just completed an MHDT Orchid upgrade for a customer with the Vcap Odam & Bypass CuTF on the outputs. The unit has about 7 hours on it. Keep in mind I also upgraded 10 resistors to Vishay ZFoils and Audio Note Tantalum.

To say I am pleased is an understatement. The unit is more open and vivid sounding with a larger stage and far more bass impact. Details once missed are now revealing themselves. Realism is improved. All with a silky smoothness and meaty warmth that is a must! Still early, but so far so very good.

That's amazing! Can't even imagine the differences after 100-300 hours of forming; the owner is going to be speechless...

Wig 👍

@cal3713 

Anyone compared the bass response of these two caps?

Yes. Both.  And, I was advised by a 50 year tech and a designer of my amplifier on two things.  The designer had to beat it into my head a few times for me to believe it.   I have the Mundorf SGOs in my MHDT Orchid DAC and the Mundorf Evo Supreme Silver Gold (non-oil) caps in my former tube amp. Guess which ones sounded fuller after 300+ hours of long and painful burn in.  The designer was right, he told me over and over to "go with the non-oil Evo Supremes" in my amp. He was right. It took a bit just to find the darn part numbers on the non-oil version. I swear those darn caps were still settling in after 400+ hours.  The 50 year tech warned me to "get ready for a roller coaster ride" with those caps for at least the first 3-4 months". Again, both were right.   

The new owner of the amp keeps calling and texting me to tell me how much better it sounds compared to the same amp with different caps, side by side. It kept improving beyond 400-500 hours.   Take it for what it's worth.  Mundorf needs to run in all their caps at the price they charge. Contemplating the roller coaster again on my new amps. 

Thanks everyone for all the cap comparison reports. Please keep them coming.. all are super useful. 

I just ordered a pair of Vcap odam caps to try in my preamp. Currently have some Mundorf m-cap supreme silvers. I’m tempted to try the bypass method with Vcap cutf’s after seeing what grannyring wrote.

@t_ramey looking forward to the listening report... 

Yes, do bypass with the CuTF Vcaps! Chris of Vcap shared with me this gem.   The result is very good.  .01 uf.  

alexberger, can you explain this to me?

" Teflon is a kind of plastic.Any plastic adds plastic coloration to sound.
Even for wires isolation cotton sounds more organic and natural that Teflon."
Thank you
BillWojo

This thread is extremely educational but at the risk of sounding a bit nerdy, I just want to say that these sort of “tweaks” should be handled with extreme care and sometimes best left to qualified techs and/or experienced DIY folks. Almost all these gears, especially the tube gears, run on some real serious voltages and the slightest mistake can have irreversible health and even life ending results. Capacitors in particular need to be handled with care for obvious reasons - they can hold charge for a while. 
Sorry, just wanted to throw that out there as I hate to see/hear anyone get hurt.

@billwojo Polypropylene caps do have a type of coloration that you may not notice until you "roll" other capacitor types into your equipment. The most natural sounding caps (IMHO) are caps that incorporate wax and/or oil. 

Insulation for bare wire can be purchased as Teflon or cotton tubing. I've used both and I agree that cotton does sound more natural only when I use it in moderation. There was a point that I used cotton tubing exclusively but music started sounding brittle after using too much. Now I alternate between both materials when I mod. 

@kalali I unplug the component before I work on it. That saves my life every time :p

@cal3713 I may revisit the Mundorf S/G/O for the tweeter network. Your assessment of it's imaging seems to match Tony Gee's. It may provide depth but is the stage wide or narrow as if you're looking down a pipe or tunnel? I really dislike imaging that crams everything in the middle. 

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only ODAM user here. I think that cap is special and posted my review here. 

I tried a dozen different polypropylene capacitors.
All of them have "plastic" coloration. 
In term of tone, smoothness and musicality paper is oil capacitors always bit polypropylene  capacitors.
I never tried Teflon capacitors.  Teflon isolated wire sound good but less natural compared cotton isolated wires.

Regards,
Alex.

I never tried Teflon capacitors. Teflon isolated wire sound good but less natural compared cotton isolated wires.

Teflon *insulated* wire has to be either silver or silver plated. Its more likely that the wire is the problem rather than the insulation.

@c_avila1 I just opened this thread to ask people ( @grannyring ) about the front-to-back layering performance of the odams and then read your review...

"My system was already very dimensional but now it's like wearing 3D goggles for my ears."

I think you sold me. As I mentioned above, I love the tonality of my duelund's, but am missing a bit of the 3d nature of the mundorfs. I want it all. 

P.S. I bought subwoofer amplifiers for my coincident pre bass cabinets (the Dayton audio sa1000 audio kenesis uses for their swarm sub array) and had to change caps to avoid rolloff with their 12k input impedance. I tried janzen silver zcaps and missed the mundorfs so much down there. Gained a ton more bass punch/impact by going back to mundorf Supremes.