Exactly Ralph, my Amps use four 2.2 value caps per monoblock, one for each tube. When running just a single large cap the sound is definitely shelved off in the highs, scymbals sound rounded off for an example. Adding .22 value caps opens the amps up, while still sounding very clear and clean, it just adds some sparkle up top making the system sound less dark.
Preamp Output Capacitor: Mundorf Supreme vs. Supreme Silver Oil
Anyone compared the bass response of these two caps? I bought the Supremes for trial purposes and really loved what they did to my system's imaging (front to back layering) and immediately bought the Silver Gold Oil Supremes. Unfortunately while they were smoother, more beautiful, and even better at imaging, they had no bass (actually, they lost bass as they broke in). Anyone know how the Silver Oil's fit into the line?
I'm using them in a Don Sach's DS2 Preamp ( https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7983).
Thanks.
I'm using them in a Don Sach's DS2 Preamp ( https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7983).
Thanks.
114 responses Add your response
I forgot to add that IMO part of the issue with bypass caps has to do with the size of the coupling cap you are bypassing. Generally speaking I've not liked what larger coupling caps do as they impose more coloration. But in some cases they have to be used- such as at the output of many tube preamps and also driving output tubes in a power amp. For this reason I've avoided coupling caps in these specific areas (instead I employ direct-coupling) as this allows me to use much smaller values overall. I can easily see resorting to bypass caps in the case of larger caps- 1uf and above in particular. |
I tried the Duelund .01uF tinned copper cast bypass caps in three positions and came to different conclusions each time. I liked them on the .47uF interstage coupling caps of my Coincident Frankenstein 300b monos. Thought the sound got more real and natural with them in the chain. Couldn't hear them at all over the 1uF Miflex output capacitor on my Don Sach's 6SN7 preamp. And heard the smearing effect when I put them on the 4.7uF cap (Clarity at the time) used as a high pass on my Coincident PRE's tweeter. |
If I am going to be in a minority, I don’t mind having Ralph from Atmasphere in my corner. Over the years I have noticed that Ralph’s observations often agree with my own. That said, I am not sure I agree with Ralph’s implication that problems with bypass caps are more of a problem on highly resolving systems. As I said in my post on the previous page, I have experimented with bypass caps for 40 years and my gear from way back then would not be considered highly resolving by today’s standards, yet the sonic problems with bypass caps were evident in all of my systems. I think the different reactions to bypass caps are more related to different listening priorities. To my ears the positive things that bypass caps can sometimes add can be described as “Hifi spectacular” artifacts—-bigger soundstage, more specific imaging and seemingly more inner detail. Certainly I am not opposed to hearing more detail, but for me the “improvements” caused by bypass caps are artificial. They come at the expense of a skewed tonal balance where the HFs are emphasized and have an artificial sheen or glaze, and the upper bass/lower midrange becomes lean and lacking in natural warmth. The degree of skewed balance changes with different caps but the direction is always the same. In addition bypass caps make the sound less coherent: music sounds like it’s coming from a 3-way speaker rather than a single driver. Furthermore, with a truly high resolving system I find I hear just as much inner detail without bypass caps. The detail is just less hyped. Some people hear and like the “Hifi spectacular” sound and perhaps don’t notice or aren’t bothered by the negatives. Other people find the more spectacular sound artificial and find these qualities make the music less natural. At the end of the day, if you like the sound with bypass caps then go for it. But you really should try removing the bypass caps at some point after they are fully broken in and you are fully used to the sound. You might just find you actually prefer the sound without the bypass caps. |
With my Rogue audio m180 darks they are traditional push pull transformer based tube amps. I have tried both options, with and without bypasses. The coupling caps in my amps are 2.2 value and sound more open with greater extension and air with .22 value bypass caps added to the circuit. Without them it is more midrange oreintated and darker sounding. The treble stills sound clear and clean with good recordings, on my Revel 228 be speakers on the Chet baker "Chet" reissue you can clearly hear front to back separation and his lips pressing against his horn without smearing, you can literally hear the brass instrument. Very clean and high resolution. |
Thank you for taking the time to answer the question. I'm just glad to see some folks take the time and the expense to experiment and share their results. Given that the results are system/circuit dependent, I guess I'll need to perform my own experiment, albeit an expensive one, and see how it goes. P.S. If I ever decide to get an MHDT Orchid, I know who to contact for advice or how to make it sound better. |
Experience and try for yourself. This is the only way to know for you .@grannyring A lot of people are of this opinion. I've just found that the more transparent the system is, the more you hear that paralleled caps don't have the desired effect. But I'm sure neither of us want to argue about it- in fact I suspect my viewpoint on this topic could easily be unpopular. People tend to think that since we make some pretty esoteric products like our fully balanced triode zero feedback OTLs, that we might be doing more listening than measurement or something like that. But to get to where we are takes engineering- and that requires math. If I can't make it work on paper, I have trouble with the idea that it will work in practice. I don't like it when things work and I don't have a good explanation- I remember the first time I heard a power cord make a difference and it really bothered me until I sorted out why. I'd love to be proven wrong on this capacitor thing but so far that hasn't worked out- we certainly *have* tried it and more than once with exactly the same results, 22 years apart. It doesn't work out on paper either, so I've maintained this position for a very long time. One area that might be a variable is output transformers. They have capacitive effects of their own (both inter-winding and to ground) so it may be that in a transformer-coupled amp there is a benefit as one is compensating for a transformer. I've not worked that out as I try to stay away from transformers if I can. |
Could someone explain why adding a 0.01uF capacitor in parallel/bypass with a 2.2uF capacitor improves sound quality?@kalali It doesn't! Any capacitor has a certain 'speed' defined by a combination of its dielectric constant and series resistance. This varies from cap to cap (inductance plays a role too; this is caused by the fact that the cap is rolled in a spiral fashion) and even from value to value of caps of similar construction. BTW this is quite measurable (notwithstanding the known effects of the specifications on paper :) ) and one way to do it is to measure bandwidth. Some caps roll off the signal a lot quicker than others. The bigger the capacitor, the more profoundly its affected by these aspects. Since smaller caps tend to be faster than larger caps, essentially a phase shift is introduced by the inclusion of a smaller cap in parallel with a larger cap. In a power supply this is advantageous, but as a coupling cap in a nutshell it smears the signal (and being real, the signal is messed with by the cap regardless). The more transparent your setup, the easier it is to hear this! If this is done in a circuit that employs loop feedback, the phase shift introduced can interfere with the phase margin of the circuit; YIKES! this could lead to oscillation. So as a result, unless you are compensating for a deficiency elsewhere in the circuit or system, the best approach is to give it your best shot and simply install the best capacitor you can and keep it as low a value as is practical. This is also why increasing the value of a coupling cap (for example to extend bass response) isn't always a good idea. Circuits behave according to math and the use of coupling caps is a really good example. |
[quote]The sound character of the particular output capacitor will have a much greater effect than the different measured cutoff frequency with a 100K load (23 vs 8 Hz). |
You need to try yourself, in some cases bypassing can work good in some cases bad. In my case, Jupiter Cu 1uF works very good with Duelund Cu-Sn bypass 0.01uf on my phonostage output. Probably, if I used a single Duelund Cu-Sn 1uF capacitor, it would be even better. But I didn’t try it. In my speakers HF crossover I bypassed 4uF Duelund RS with the same Duelund Cu-Sn bypass 0.01uf. In direct comparison, when I remove bypass sound has a better focus, but with bypass I have much more vivid, real, alive and musical sound. |
Sorry. I can’t explain as I am more of a experiential sort of guy. I try and enjoy or not. I will add that it’s all about the synergy between the stock piece of gear and the cap you are thinking of adding. For example the stock MHDT Orchid dac is warm, rounded so more air and vividness is a synergistic plus. The trick is not to go to far and lose the stock unit’s wonderful weight, bloom and body. That’s why I would not use a Mundorf SGO alone or with a bypass of any sort. However, the Odam & Cuft combo works perfectly for top to bottom correctness of tone.....perfectly balanced. One has to know the sonic personality of the parts being used as they do indeed have a sound. |
Thanks. I’m not questioning the results, one way or the other, just wondering why and how it makes a difference. Apparently, in the chip design the different value and material parallel/bypass capacitors are used to push the inductance of the capacitor to higher frequencies and the combined impedance(s) of the capacitors is lowered across a broader frequency range. But that’s at MHz region. I’m guessing the same/similar phenomenon occurs in audio. Otherwise, on the surface you’re just adding the capacitances of the two capacitors. |
It depends on the combo and position. The Vcap Odam & Cuft bypass are a match in heaven. Chris from Vcap turned me onto it. I will say it is magic on the output of a dac which is where I have used them on 5 occasions now. I am sure they would sound as wonderful together on the output of a preamp. I am using them on a tweeter next and will report back. Some combos just work and some just dont. Learn from experience. The Jupiter copper foils bypassed with the Duelund silver foil bypass cap also works wonderfully. In my experience the two examples work and I have used them extensively. |
Not everyone agrees that a small bypass cap improves sound quality. I have tried bypass caps in all sorts of applications going back literally 40 years and I haven’t found a single instance where the bypass improved sound quality. The bypass certainly changes the sound; usually the bypass makes the sound brighter, leaner and less coherent. I much prefer the sound of a single quality cap like a Copper V-Cap over any combination of caps with a bypass. You may reach a different conclusion so by all means try it yourself, but don’t be surprised if you tire of the sound with bypass caps. |
With tube gear where the input impedance is typically 100K or more, a 0.68uf coupling cap is fine.The smaller value you can get away with, the better the cap itself will sound (and no need for a bypass). That is why we have a direct-coupled output in our preamps, so that the significant cap in the circuit is only 0.1uf. |
The sound character of the particular output capacitor will have a much greater effect than the different measured cutoff frequency with a 100K load (23 vs 8 Hz). For example, a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil sounds “thin” regardless of cutoff frequency; an older InfiniCap would sound even more thin and lightweight. On the other hand, a .68uf Copper V-Cap with a 100K load will have deep, powerful, full-bodied bass despite the measured response being down 3db at 23 Hz. |
You are right, there are a few criteria. 1. I am not talking "most" systems. I am discussing excellent systems. Many average Joes probably won’t care that much though. But it is important to others. 2. I am not considering bumping the woofer’s Qts above 0,707 in order to artificially boost the system’s low end response. The problem with that is a phase deviation, bloating, or even synthetic bass (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition, 26+ engineers). And can one ever really obtain flat response with such a measure? 3. Another problem is that dbs add. By that I mean each components deviation is additive. If we have three components, we add the db variation of each. For instance, -0,2db plus -0,15db plus -0,2db gives us -.55db from flat. A deviation varies vs frequency, and exists over many octaves. (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition, 26+ engineers explains this plus the next paragraph.) Another concern is if we limit the bass response, we also need to limit the high frequency response. Visa versa as well. (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook,) We need to keep each component’s frequency response as flat as possible, minimal deviation to protect the musical information. 4. I am discussing capacitors in absolute sonic terms (not measurements), so as to not cover over another fault in a poor/average design. The capacitors I am talking about are not a 716P orange drops. 5. Every time one compromises sonic quality in a part, a stage, in a component, the synergy will not be as optimum as it could be. Design and parts quality is very important. By the way, imo, -3db at 23 hz is extremely poor frequency response unless one is purposely constructing a high pass filter to limit the bass response, which is useful for certain purposes. Cheers ag |
AG, not necessarily. A 0.68uf cap into a 100K loaf will have a rolloff that is -3 dB at 23 Hz. That is not going to sound “thin” on most systems. The 2uf cap extends the -3 dB freq to 8 Hz. There would be virtually no sonic difference between these two caps provided they are otherwise identical (same brand, same model) at least on most systems. |
I would be very careful when comparing and making claims on capacitors, in absolute terms, to make sure the value used is large enough for an accurate listening test. For instance, testing a 0,68uf with a 100k load vs a 2uf with same load. If the capacitor is indeed accurate in absolute terms, the 0.68uf will sound thin. If it sounds full enough, then the capacitor is "artificially flavoring" the music. A proper, truly accurate 2uf capacitor, in absolute terms, will be more accurate than the 0,68uf capacitor in almost all circuits. cheersAG |
Hi @c_avila1 , I’m agree with you. Everyone has their own system and taste. So the best way to try by yourself in your system. @kalali , IMHO, the value accuracy of coupling capacitors is not so important. Is doesn’t matter to much if cutoff frequency 1 Hz or 2, 3 Hz. The quality and sound signature is much more important! The other story in crossovers and RIAA correction where accuracy is the must. Regards, Alex. |
@grannyring I completely agree with your assessment of the ODAM. @kalali and @1markr As good as the Jupiter and Audyn True Copper caps may be, the ODAM may possibly provide better synergy for your system. Don't be discouraged from replacing high quality caps for the ODAM. Experimentation is the only way that you'll truly know what sounds best for your system. |
Sorry if I’m asking the obvious but when changing brands do you always use the same exact uF value as replacement/upgrade? I suspect the answer is yes but I still wondered if the different material construction, design technology, etc., or even the desired sonic outcome, might positively impact the outcome if a slightly lower or higher values were substituted instead. |
Thanks Bill @grannyring ; good info to ponder. I do like the warmth in my system now, and your description resonates with how I view my system as well, so I am guessing that changing to the Odam / CuTF combo may bring only minor incremental changes. If I didn't already the Jupiters, or the Audyn, I'd definitely try the Odam / CuTF. |
Depends what you are looking for. The Odam & CuTF combo from Vcap will be more open, vibrant, dynamic, resolving, 3D and far better bass. The copper foils from Jupiter, Miflex, Auydn and others will give you more rounded warmth. They are a tad darker. I am a big Jupiter copper foil cap fan, but the Vcap combo is just better sounding to me in the ways I mentioned above. They also deliver the goods with nice warmth and richness. |
Read this very interesting and relevant thread; great info indeed! And it’s making me wonder.... I currently have the Audyn True Copper Max caps Installed in my Backert Rhumba preamp, and a pair of Jupiter Copper Foils in my Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC... Would the ODAMs with bypass caps be only a side move, or would there be a significant improvement on either component? No issues with my system as it stands, I love it, but admit I have a problem, I am an Audiophile, and can’t leave system alone. |
I ordered some Duelund silver bypass caps to play with the ODAM’s and see how they match up together. I’m really liking the ODAM/CuTF pairing but I’m new to this cap rolling thing so I’m experimenting. The Mundorf m cap silver caps were good but the Vcap ODAM’s are just so clear and musically satisfying I had no idea a cap could make this much of a difference. |
I have upgraded several MHDT Orchid dacs with the Vcap Odam caps in combo with the Vcap Cutf bypass and the results are stellar! The bass energy is the best I have heard from any cap...period. Wonderful. In addition, the mids and highs sound is so vivid and full. They are fast becoming my new favorite cap combo. I love how these caps deliver vivid detail and realism with a warm and rich beauty that is so pleasing and alluring. |
Looks like we made it onto VH Audio's facebook feed...
https://www.facebook.com/VHAudio/posts/2983238758366541
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Well I have to echo wig’s description of the ODAM’s after 48 hrs of use they are incredibly holographic and articulate across the board with vocals and instruments. Songs that I thought just had grunge or hash as part of its recording sound much more detailed and clean but not overly so because everything is still very musically engaging. Now I also bypassed them with the Vcap CuTF’s but I’m hearing pretty much wig has reported. I feel like I almost got a new preamp for a small investment. Speaking of small these ODAM’s are tiny compared to the Mundorf m-cap silver 2.2uF caps they replaced. So far I’m very pleased with their performance and if they get better well that’s just gravy. |
Thanks for the link. I found the video where i saw the capacitor polarity topic discussed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR_DLd1PDI&feature=youtu.be P.S. Sorry if a bit off topic but might be of interest. |
Yes. I need to understand circuits better to give the technical reason why, but in my pre the outer foil points "upstream" (away from the outputs). The mundorfs are supposedly non-directional, but I’ve seen a video where people hook it to to an oscilloscope and show that it passes more noise in a particular orientation. Here’s a decent discussion on the topic: https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11427.0 |
Thanks for the input. One quick and hopefully non controversial question: do any of these capacitors need to be installed in a specific direction even though they are not marked for direction? I have seen some tube amplifier building/repair instructional videos where the designer/builder uses a special device to measure a certain parameter to determine the “correct“ direction for installing the capacitor, e.g., foil side towards the tube socket, etc., or something like that if I remember correctly. He claimed it makes difference. Just wondering. |
“...came along with the ODAM suggestion. They’re smaller and cheaper than the Miflex so I’m looking forward to trying them...” Where do you find the ODAM capacitors selling cheaper than the Miflex? A 0.47uF Miflex is around $25 vs. a 0.47 Vcap ODAM priced at $84. The price differential is a little less for larger uF values but definitely not cheaper. I’m very tempted to try the ODAMs in my Aric Audio Unlimited preamp already upgraded with the Audyn True Copper capacitors. A clear improvement over the stock red Audyns. Anyone has experience with the newer Audyn True Copper Max? For a 2.2uF value they are about the same price as the ODAMs. |