Also, I just discovered the thread I cited above did have some s/g/o to silver in oil comparisons. It was hard to explicitly search for differences because the only difference in terms is gold (and people write out the cap names variably).
Looks like maybe supreme silver oils do have better bass.
@alexberger and I'll probably also try some Duelund tinned copper. Thinking about putting those on one output and one of the Mundorfs on the other. |
@imhififan If you read a lot of capacitor discussions, you can see some other people finding that the bass response of the s/g/o decreases over the first 300 hours (e.g. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mundorf-silver-gold-in-oil-supreme-caps-any-good). @noromance Yes, actually the original reason I started modifying the capacitors was because the miflexs were right on the edge of being too small for my amplifier's input impedance. @alexberger Although the miflexs' had nice tonality, they presented a very flat image in my system. Adding in the Mundorfs put a lot more layering into the soundstage. It very much went from 2d to 3d. |
@grannyring and yes, definitely putting some Duelund's in. Unfortunately I didn't know my amp's input impedance was modifiable... I actually have to re-buy the exact same caps I sold you. It's been fun learning about building/modifying equipment. Still mostly playing Legos, but learning is fun. |
@ricgoretti. If you look at my system pictures, you can see the Mundorfs in there, they're not large. I think they're 2uf, plenty of room. And despite some of the criticisms, I really do enjoy them. Especially if you've got a system that images nicely. If I had too much bass instead of too little, I'd be gushing about the supreme silver/gold/oils. Really beautiful tone and imaging. And not nearly as expensive as the Duelund and v-cap options. |
@atmasphere Thanks Ralph, I've just been cheating by using the calculator at vh audio ( https://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php). Fortunately because the pre is basically an advanced kit, I do have some ideas of what range is normal for use. I also just leaned that I can change the resistor on my amplifier (diy first watt f4s and sit3s) to a any value within a decent range. Moved both up to a 200k input impedance to allow for the use of smaller caps. |
@imhififan Yeah, no idea at all. I didn't really believe it until I experienced it. Loved the caps for the first few days and then the bass just receded. I switched over to the normal Supremes and it was back. |
@grannyring Finally sprung for the duelund cast tinned copper. These capacitors are absolutely amazing. Now I have them in my dac (audio mirror tubadour III se), pre, and speaker crossover. They just sound so natural. |
Hi @wig , a lot of people seem to love the Miflex's and I'm sure they are great performers in many systems. In mine, they sounded good, but removed almost all the front to back layering that my system is capable of. I really enjoyed the Sach's pre and was feeling content with it, but when I installed the Mundorf Supremes, all of a sudden I had another 2-3 feet of meaningful depth to the imaging. I didn't know what I was missing, but in comparison, the Miflexs were almost two-dimensional.
Moving up to Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oils added another foot to the depth of the imaging (and also reduced the bass to a level that I couldn't accept until I added in new subwoofer amplifiers that could boost my bass a bit).
Moving on to the Duelund's probably took out that extra foot, but made the sound more real/natural. They're also a little cleaner and more precise in terms of locating instruments in the soundstage.
I think whether the Deulunds are worth it or not (vs the Miflexs) will really depend on the depth capabilities of your system's imaging.
It's been too long for me to accurately comment, but I want to guess that they're more tonally similar than different (whereas V-Cap TFTFs and Mundorfs will definitely both shift the tone in different directions).
Hope that helps. |
@wig Finally checked out your system. Wish I could hear it, always wanted to hear those speakers. Hope the Duelunds work out... very curious to hear how you feel about the comparison. |
@atmasphere I’ve seen a ton of people love them, but they just didn’t work in my system . The ds pre has two outputs and so it was super easy to switch back and forth between the Mundorfs and vcaps. In my pre, with a pretty large cap (2uf) right on the output, going to the vcaps was like turning on a fluoresce light. |
@wig Interesting. Looking forward to the report...
& @atmasphere I also have absolutely no doubt that the vcap's sound amazing in your pre's. Would absolutely love to hear one. |
@alexberger I had the duelund silver bypass caps in my coincident Frankenstein’s (but only over the stock solen coupling caps) and really liked them. Could not hear any difference over the stock output caps in my pre though and sold them... |
@atmasphere Yeah, I had them in the pre for a couple months of daily listening... would still love to try the cutf and odams. |
@grannyring please do report back. Looking forward to hearing the outcome. |
Thanks everyone for all the cap comparison reports. Please keep them coming.. all are super useful. |
@t_ramey looking forward to the listening report... |
@c_avila1 I just opened this thread to ask people ( @grannyring ) about the front-to-back layering performance of the odams and then read your review...
"My system was already very dimensional but now it's like wearing 3D goggles for my ears."
I think you sold me. As I mentioned above, I love the tonality of my duelund's, but am missing a bit of the 3d nature of the mundorfs. I want it all. |
P.S. I bought subwoofer amplifiers for my coincident pre bass cabinets (the Dayton audio sa1000 audio kenesis uses for their swarm sub array) and had to change caps to avoid rolloff with their 12k input impedance. I tried janzen silver zcaps and missed the mundorfs so much down there. Gained a ton more bass punch/impact by going back to mundorf Supremes. |
@t_ramey I think you made the right decision. As I stated earlier, I wasn't really impressed with the Miflex's, unless you're system is focused entirely on tone at the expense of imaging. |
I wish we could rename this thread "Preamp Output Capacitor Discussion." (or Comparison or Reviews) Super useful experiences and suggestions in here. Thanks for the contributions. |
That's also a great video, thanks for posting. |
Yes. I need to understand circuits better to give the technical reason why, but in my pre the outer foil points "upstream" (away from the outputs). The mundorfs are supposedly non-directional, but I’ve seen a video where people hook it to to an oscilloscope and show that it passes more noise in a particular orientation. Here’s a decent discussion on the topic: https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11427.0 |
Also, wow that guy's test bench. |
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@atmasphere You keep slowly (and totally indirectly) convincing me to try your direct coupled pre. Unfortunately I'm quitting my job in May (and applying for new ones now), or I'd be saving up for a trial. |
A quality, educational discussion... Thanks. |
I tried the Duelund .01uF tinned copper cast bypass caps in three positions and came to different conclusions each time.
I liked them on the .47uF interstage coupling caps of my Coincident Frankenstein 300b monos. Thought the sound got more real and natural with them in the chain. Couldn't hear them at all over the 1uF Miflex output capacitor on my Don Sach's 6SN7 preamp. And heard the smearing effect when I put them on the 4.7uF cap (Clarity at the time) used as a high pass on my Coincident PRE's tweeter. |
