Preamp Deal of the Century

Hey Fla. Congrats on the new Cab dual. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts regarding the new dual cab as I am seriously considering ordering one to replace my Cortese. The whole concept is just brilliant, particularly for those that are bi-amplifying. Cheers.

I owe Ecclectique and apology.

For quite some time he has posted his preference for the Tung Sol 6SN7 RP. I have posted in reply that in my system the EH 6SN7 was the equal of the Tung Sol.

Well, recently my right channel EH 6SN7 began spitting and popping. I went online to order more. In the mean time I broke out my NOS tubes. I took out the Tung Sol RP plates and popped them in.

After 10 minutes I continued to shake my head asking myself what did Ecclectique hear in this tube that was so great? But I left them in and left my preamp own for about 3 days. When I finally had time to listen again I hit the play button and WOW! Okay, now we got sumpin'...more detail, extreme clarity, layering of the soundstage and much more "you are there".

In the past when I put the RPs in I would try them for an hour and pull them out. They always sounded thin and uninvolving to me. It appears that I simply did not give them time to open up. I assumed that even though they were sold to me as NOS, I figured that they probably had some hours on them and were already run in.

Ecclectique, my apologies. I was wrong and you were absolutely right. The Tung Sol RPs are much better than the EH 6SN7s.

I have always taken your advice very seriously, but I just didn't understand your excitement about the RPs. Now I do and I appreciate your persistence in posting about the RPs.

The only caveat to my RPs are that they are rather microphonic and they have a lot of tube hiss. My goal now is to find two more pairs that are NOS, low noise and microphonics. So the search begins!

Sorry about the typos and grammatical errors. Obviously didn't proof this one very carefully! Anyone know if there is an edit function?

Hey Fiddler. No need to for any apologies here, just good to see your Tung-sol roundplates are starting show off and srut their stuff. Tube rolling with any gear can be perplexing at times given all the variables, particularly with the 6sn7 family of tubes. The entire 6sn7 family have a tendency to be prone to microphony and/or noise when employed as a gain tube. Given the incredable resolving capability of the Supratek preamps,and magnified by the high gain of the circuit itself....... you now have gain stage that will allow you to hear the best/or worst of the particular brand tube being employed. Unfortunately...the tube's noise ,hiss,hum,or microphony will be magnified as well. No wonder why Mick Maloney and so many others recommend using the stock EH 6sn7 gain tubes. Mick has done an incredible job of voicing his preamp with the EH 6sn7. I am more than certain Mick is testing,screening and cherry picking the best examples from every lot he orders from Electro Harmonics, culling and discarding the examples that don't make the grade. The EH 6sn7 is far and away the best sounding 6sn7 of current manufacture, leaps and bounds better than the sovtek he was originally working with. The very best examples of new old stock 6sn7's are so hediously expensive to acquire these days...when one factors in the n7's penchant to be prone to hiss,hum and microphony. I would guess the EH 6sn7 is simply a "No Brainer". I do consider myself very very fortunate these days as I have always had a huge collection of nos tubes at my disposal. I spent 14 years in the field as a techie for Dukane {Bell % Howell}. We serviced,repaired and calibrating amplifiers in the big movie theaters,concert halls, churches, schools,colleges, universities etc in Canada. The 6sn7 was employed in the majority of amplifiers back in the day, not to mention jukes, radios and nearly every television ever made.Allowing me the luxury of collecting hundreds on n7's when they were cheaper than cup of coffee. Ever wonder why Tube Dealers use a grade rating system for their inventory of old stock 6sn7's???? "Buyer Beware" is the appropriate warning here! If it is graded as a standard grade tube, or a driver grade tube.... Do yourself a favour and "don't even consider it guys".... as it's just a sure fire recipee for a major disapointment here, particularly if it's to be employed for a gain stage in a high quality preamp! Meaning... preamp grade tubes only here gang!!! Noisey tubes are a major liablity and will only serve to mask much of the micro resolution,nuance and timbre buried under the noise floor. Remove the noise and you will be just amazed at how much more of the musical information you've been missing! When voicing my Supratek with any given brand of nos 6sn7's... I would typically need to go through 6-10 examples to find a matched pair with a noise floor that was low enough for use in the supratek. Some brands...Kenrad Black glass for example[my favourite beside the Tungsol round], had an even higher culling rate! Fortunately, the Tungsol round plates are usually much more consistent here...typically lower in noise and tighter triode sections. Hey Fiddler, now that you have discovered the real magic of the Tung-sol round..... lose that pair over at flea-bay and grab a low noise pair. Life is grand.

I agree that the Tung Sol round plates are the best sounding line stage tubes in my Cortese, but when you factor in the cost these things are going for these days, I will stay with the EH 6sn7's (a true audio bargain). As Ecclectique says, you may have to gothrough several pairs to get a really quiet matched set. I just don't have the money or the interest in paying high prices and hoping I will get a good pair. The EH 6sn7's work fine for me.

Hey Fla. Did you get Dual cab up and running yet?

yeah yeah, very very nice! will write something up tomorrow night after work.

Ecclectique:
You know, I'm not sure what to tell you - I don't think I'll be of much help here. I just got the Wyetech Sapphires in a couple weeks before the Cabernet Dual and have not had the opportunity to pair the Sapphires with any other decent pre. I ran them briefly with the pre-outs of a $2500 Boston Acoustics rcvr, awaiting the arrival of the Supratek, so any observations at this time have little merit...

What I can say is that adding the Supratek is a huge step up, particularly in the treble and bass, size of soundstage, tonality overall, and in dynamics.

My source: Modwright SONY 999 with Signature Truth mods, the better clock, tubed output stage (Tungsol 5687s) with separate power supply. Power cord here is Tekline's best all-copper model. All components run off a Tripp-lite power bar, soon to be upgraded to a Running Springs Haley PLC.

Speakers: B&W Signature 805 monitors, 8-ohm nominal dropping no lower than 4.6 ohms, 88dB sensitivity, and a first order cross to the tweeter. These are bi-wired with Tekline's best copper.

The Sapphires are currently running with stock cords. An NBS dragonfly powers the Supratek. All cords will soon be upgraded to either Dream State or Stealth.

Front end interconnects are either Tekline's best silver model with Eichmann bullets (for SACD) or a Totem Sinew (for CD), with an Oritek X1 btwn pre and amps. This latter IC will be upgraded to a Jade Hybrid eventually.

So even with these limitations, I can only say the sound OF THE SYSTEM is quite natural, open, harmonically rich, and dynamic, but a tad too warm. I should also add that the Sapphire's 18wpc parallel SET sounds subjectively more powerful than my former 30wpc Audiomat Opera in push-pull! This may be due to the Sapphires' higher amount of 2nd harmonics that allegedly add body to the sound.

It's just very difficult for me to distinguish btwn what the pre is contributing vs that of the amps, since I've not compared each component to others. I can say that the Supratek is definitely NOT typically "tubey"-sounding, yet the mids are quite holographic and perfectly lush - not syrupy, as I would imagine a cheaper Cary or Quicksilver might sound. But this is probably due more to the Sapphires' 300Bs than from Supratek's 101Ds. I've yet to try the other preamp circuit using 6H30s, since this will eventually drive a REL.

The treble is very smooth, delicate, and harmonically rich - definitely NOT representative of your typical solidstate or digital offering.

Bass on this 101D circuit is weak in volume but high on texture and nuance. The REL addition later should alleviate the lack of dB.

I don't believe the Supratek is taking anything AWAY from the Sapphires, and is quite likely adding much to the soundstage and dynamics.

Also note that I've yet to roll tubes: the 6SN7s are stock Electroharmonix, the 101Ds are TJs, every thing else is Sovtek. Any recommendations for upgrades anyone??

I will have to comment later after the power cord, PLC, and interconnect upgrades, but so far so good, aside from a tad too much warmth, which I'll take over sterility any day.

Anyone willing to send me their ARC Ref 3, Aesthetix Callisto, or reasonable equivalent for comparison is most welcome to do so!

QUESTION: I've got a Sauvignon which I LOVE, but bought without the phono stage (stupidly).

Now, I've finally got the vinyl bug and am at least going to try it out. I was going to start with a Pro-Ject tube box phono stage. Question is: do I REALLY want to think about getting a new Supratek with phono? How much better would a Chardonnay be than a $500 tube MC stage going into my Supratek linestage?

Boy!! With your system hardly worth the bother to go with the Project. How about the Graham Slee or Dynavector. Stay with the separate phono stage but spend a few more bucks.

Chardonnay does not have a phono either! That is one of the biggest blunder one can commit in buying a Supratek product is to get the "linestage only". Reason being is the $500 difference, which in the long run pays for itself in terms of retaining the value of the preamp in case you will sell it, for a unit with the same circuit topology on the linestage and equipped with the phono pre is a no brainer! The phono section of the Supratek, as other owners mentioned already, is excellent!

If you are adding a phono to your linestage, the only concern I can think of is make sure the phono preamp you are getting has a well thought off grounding scheme or else "hum city" can occur.

regards

Oops - I meant Cortese. The diff here (over the Sauv) is $1500 so it is not 'trivial'. I didn't know if I'd ever try vinyl.

Am considering a Pro-ject Tube Box II, perhaps only has a holdover till I order a Cortese.

In Piano Black, of course.

Am considering a Pro-ject Tube Box II, perhaps only has a holdover till I order a Cortese.

Hello,

In my opinion, going SS phono pre to the Supratek is nice (I have one: a one box Bugle PSU, Bugle, and Piccolo all from Hagerman Technology). But if push comes to shove, I will opt for a tube design. Having said that, I own a Hagerman Cornet 2 and its synergy to the Supratek is uncanny! You will spend about $600 if you build it yourself from half kits source through Hagerman Technology. For the record, I owned the Hagerman trumpet also.

Of course, going Supratek all the way is another great option. But if you decide to go with an outboard one, you have to find out what kind of circuit topology (tubes use etc.) you really like. I can tell you that the phono section on my Supratek (uses 6C4 and 6922 tubes with FET gain stage on the front) sounds different than the 12XX7 base phono preamps I own in all cartridges I tried. Also, for whatever reason, line contact stylus cartridges sound a little better on the Supratek than the other phono preamp I have.

Sorry for the rant, I just want to point out that there are several factors that you might want to consider before you commit on buying whatever phono preamp you want to get.
BTW, I saw your post at the Asylum. One poster wrote about the Wright WPP100C phono preamp having "someone" preferred the Supratek to it. I am that person! I compared them side by side for months to make sure that I will not make the "honeymoon syndrome" mistake, and in my system and to me, the Supratek phono is much much better.

Goodluck!

Oops correction! On the first paragraph, I was thinking about the Graham Slee from your response at AA.

Yes, considering the Slee.

Jim: I would have been surprised if somebody said the TB could compete with a Supratek phono but what did I know? Well, I know a bit more now. :) (After an all-night crash-course in modern phono stages, that is.)

I may well go with another Supratek, but I like the idea with playing with some other units, and also I still need a temporary solution as those Suprateks, they take awhile, ya know?

Anybody want a nice deal on a 6-month old Sauvignon in Sheoak/stainless shipped from the states with no hassle? It's perfect. I'm not taking more than a $500 hit on that thing, which actually will save somebody more like $700.

Well - I've ordered a Cortese. Mick had one almost done and I couldn't resist.

What's the hot tube setup for the phono stage? :)

Nobody gonna help me out about the phono tubes? I know I could scour the thread, and I will, eventually.

7308s still the hot ticket for 6922? Amperex?

The other tube in the phono section, 6288 or something, I don't think I'd even heard of.

Hi Paul. Congrats on your new Supratek. Regarding the 6922-ecc88 family of dual triodes, the nos Euro tubes are generally the better sounding tube choices for most any high resolution high gain phono stage. The Amperex 7308, the Telefunken, Siemens and Valvo e88cc's are the usual choices.... not to mention the fabulous cca's from both siemens and telefunken. The 6688 is a very high quality low noise pentode that was traditionally used in wide band rf amplifiers. Any 6688 or E180f that comes in the Supratek preamps will most certainly be a nos tube anyway, as that tube has been long out of production. You can be certain Mick has screened, tested and culled them for all his customers..... I rather doubt you could improve on them anyway. Enjoy the ride!

Hi,
Just recieved my Sauvingon a few days ago and wanted to say a few words.
It replaced my Pass Labs Aleph P which served me very well for many years. The Sauv. is just as quite maybe more so which says alot, because the Aleph P was tomb quite!
I ordered the Pre-amp in chrome & jarrah wood and I made Mick put V-caps in the output position (thanks Fiddler). The Sauv. uses 2.0 caps which are very expensive, but hopefully I won't be changing Pre-amps in a long time. The look is very beautiful with some minor imperfections(nothing to write home about) and the sound is dynamic,effortless,liquid and extended. Once I get some more hours on it and get my main CDP back from service I'll respond back. Thanks everybody for the heads up,will be trying some NOS tubes that were recommended.

Joe

Sorry meant,Sauvignon

I've got a pair of V-cap 2uf TFTF teflons for sale here if anyone is interested:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?accstwek&1190168049&item

Hi all,

I have a Cabernet Dual which was hopefully shipped today to Sydney.

I plan to use the 101D pre-amp section going into a pair of 13E1 SET mono amplifiers (30 watts) and the 6H30 pre-amp section going to a seperate subwoofer. The 13E1 will hopefully power the 2 way loudspeaker full range.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Btw, this is my second Supratek, my first was a Sauvignon, which I sold to a friend.

Cheers

Hi Clipsal. Congrats on the new Dual Cab. I am green with envy! The whole concept and circuit design of the new dual cab is truly brilliant IMO. While I am not familiar with the wiring arangement or the crossover interface of the Osbourn speaker system however.... I believe it would be advantageous for you to employ the 101D section of the supratek to operate at the 125 hz crossover point, whereby the 6H30 section of the preamp would handle the bass driver and sub system below that point. Is the Osborn sub modual self powered? You certainly will have a lot of hook up and/or wiring options open to you for configuring your system.... particularly if you are ever contemplating biamping at some point. Please keep me imformed as I am seriously contemplating a Supratek dual for my main rig. All the best on your endevour!....david

i'm not sure if anybody else has seen this, but i found an interesting interview between mick and a member (perhaps mod) at an aussie audio forum from march 2007. pretty good read.

http://www.stereo.net.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=2550

I've just purchased a moderately used Supratek Chenin preamp, and WHOA! what a difference it made in my system. The sound is much better in all respects, and I was theretofore using a nice Counterpoint tube preamp, which sounded pretty good, but not THIS good. All I can say is, if you can afford one, get it! And if a phono section is not important to you, get the Chadonay. As for myself, I'm now saving up to upgrade to the Sauvignon Dual, which I read in reviews, is somewhat better (hard to imagine after auditioning the Chenin). When I first introduced it into my system, I said to myself, "Oh, Sweet Jesus", then I sat back in my easy chair and listened for five straight hours with an idiotic grin on my face.

waltcertain

Wow....hearing so much good things about Supratek, I just could not resist trying to get a Supratek preamp for my system. I am looking to change my P8 into a tube preamp.
I have narrowed my choices to the following:
Blue Circle BC3000
Modwright LS36.5
Supratek.....Sauvignon or Carbernet Single

Currently my system comprised the following:
Nuforce 9.02SE (waiting to upgrade to V2)
Nuforce P8 preamp
CEC 1X
Northstar 24/192 DAC
Fremont Escalante (too bad it does not allow biamp)

What woud you guys suggest? Cabernet Single or Sauvignon. Would you guys suggest to also upgrade the caps to V-cap?

Thanks

The V-Cap Teflons are the best thing out there right now. We find them more open, smoother and more detailed. Anytime you can get "smoother and more detailed" together you are on the right track.

audioforever:

if you're going to go with a supratek linestage only preamp, i think it would be best to go with the cabernet single (or better yet, dual if your system allows). i think that the cabernet would hold better resale value than a sauvignon. just my opinion. not to mention the cabernet is supratek's reference linestage and the sauvignon is one down so you'll likely never worry about "what if?".

i had a chardonnay which i sold and now i'm awaiting completion of a cabernet single. the reason i chose the single over the dual is that my speakers do not allow for bi-amping and i have no intentions of replacing them.

I just got the promitheus tvc reference 3 pre amp auditioned by sam in this issue of sterophile. at $780.00 shiped. this is a real giant killer. I tweaked it a little, by removing the top, and mounting it on mapleshade brass triple points. in process of trying the reference phono amp and power supply

Sorry to say Kwkwsr, but there's no contest between Supratek and the Prometheus TVC ...the Suprateks just sound much more alive and real, IMO! I've had the TVC in my home to compare alongside my Supratek preamp and while the TVC was very nice sounding (one of the better passives out there), it was a bit flat and lifeless next to the Supratek.

Regards,

Steve M.

This has been discussed on the thread many times, but I will say again. Whichever model of Supratek preamp you choose to buy GET THE PHONO STAGE! It does not add that much to the cost and the resale will be higher than any of the line stage preamps. As great as you may have found the line stage to be, the phono stage is where the real magic happen in Supratek's.

There have been numerous times that someone has bought a line stage pre only to regret that they did not get the phono stage.

Slowhand,

While the phono stage is a $400 option on the Chenin, it is $1500 on the Sauv/Cortese and a whopping $4000 on the Cab/Grange!

$1500 is not change - though I have no doubts it's well worth it. OTOH, you can buy a Minimax phono for that and many consider that phono stage world-class as well.

The Graham Slee era gold I'm using now is amazing as well. I never thought I could stand op-amps of any form in my system. I don't have a broad reference of phono stages at this point, by any means, but this thing makes astounding music, with a moderate table/cart.

My Sauvignon is sold (I think) but I had to cancel the Cortese I'd ordered a couple weeks ago. Then, I decided to go ahead and try the Dodd battery pre I've been wanting to try for some time - might be just the ticket - though beating a Supratek, if it's possible, sure can't be easy.

I am going to try the Minimax phono in concert with the Dodd. I have great respect for the MM products. I have had a MM CDP in my 2nd system for a couple years and it sounds as good as many $3K players, no doubt.

Anyway, I may end up loving the Dodd & the MM, or I may end up with a Cortese before long.

I do like the flexibility of a separate phono stage.

Thanks to everyone for helping out.

I think I will go along with cabernet single since Grange is really way above my budget.

Hope you guys can further help me out here. Besides upgrading the caps to V-cap, are there anything further upgrades/decision to tell Mike when placing the order?

Thanks Guys!!!

Regards

Regarding the phonostage in the Chenin.... What do you get for that extra $400.00? I think few here acually know the true measure of Micks entry level phonostage including his other designs.I guess you can say that about most well designed components ect.Check out Slipknot1 system, "Ars Musica". He uses a Chenin with his Walker Proscenium turntable.Im sure if there was any hint of a problem with the Chenin in his system,it would of been gone long ago. As for me,Micks entry level preamp and phonostage is the best so far that I have owned.Hopefully by the end of the year my Chenin will be hooked up to a S.M.E. 20/12.I think only then will I get a clear sense of Micks design.

I echo what Stiltskin posted here! I think the Chenin's phono section (6922/6C4) is exceptional!

I remember that the phono section of the Chenin was taken from the one which the Cortese had during that time. The Syrah, which the Chenin replaces have a different phono section topology overall. I truly believe that the 6922/6C4 combo that the Chenin preamp has is a magnificent sounding design.

Sometimes I wonder what could be the reason why the Chenins phono design was changed from the original 6922/6C4 combo to a different 6922/XXX topology?

As they say, a great sounding circuit design is only as great to how the individual components react to compliment each other. IMHO, Mick hit something special with the 6922/6C4 combo.

regards,

Abe

Any one has a manual of Syhra, please send me a copy.

Thanks

Houstonreef- I tried to send an email thru the A'Gon system,but received a delivery failure notice. Email me directly if you still need one.
zachzdb@yahoo.com

Don't mean to change the subject but does anyone have any experience with Supratek power amps?

Hi Guy's,

I have to say, I am a little disappointed that there has not been much talk or raves about the Malbec's or the Montuse. I guess Mick's amps are not catching on.

Hi everyone.

I have the Malbec amps. They sound so good, I am going to keep them for a long time. I am in the process of adding the V-Caps to the Malbec. I had the V-Caps installed in my Chardonay Pre amp. The result is just incredible.I used to have the Cary Six Pac. I used to think the Six Pac were good. After hooking the Malbec into my system, I never look back to the Six Pac again. In testing the the Six Pac vs the Malbec, I hooked one Six Pac mono block to one speaker and one Malbec to the other speaker. There are a lot more music coming from the Malbec. The sound is also much clearer. Malbec also have volume control so you can balance the level on each speaker. The Malbec also allow you to control the level of warmth or brightness in the sound. I used both KT-88 and EL-34 tubes. IMHO, the EL-34 sound much better.

I 'll be turning off radar. Enjoy the music.

Tuongsy,
I have heard of others who have put V caps in their preamps. What differences did you hear when you made this mod. Also, how much in caps did it cost to do this? Bob

The music is much clearer. Bass is more defined. The best upgrade that I have done for my system. Two v-caps cost me less than $300.

I think will soon make v-caps as standad equipment on the top end models. My Cabernet Dual came with v-caps.

Btw, Nice sound, big weighty sound compared to running Audio Aero Capitole MKII direct.

It's good to start hearing some feedback on the Malbec's. If I did not own the Berning ZH270, I would be jumping on getting the Melbac's. The Berning just sounds so fantastic with my Cortese. I would love to be able to do a direct comparison of the Berning and the Malbec's, but I don't have the money lying around to order the Malbec's. I think Mick is going to send a pair of Malbec's to a reviewer in the USA. Maybe 6Moons.

Clipsal, what are the V-Cap values that Mick used in your Cab?

Not sure what the V-Cap values are. I'll ask him next time and post the results.

On a different note, I noticed the Cab Dual has both XLR and RCA Inputs. Is anyone able to describe the differences, since I don't have a pair of XLR cables to comment. Mick said the Dual is fully balanced, thus, one should just try and compare.

Just recently purchased Paul F's Supratek Sauvignon preamp, replacing my Chenin. Hooked it up to my BAT VK-200 amp and let the Sauvignon warm up for half an hour. Then place a CD into my hot-rodded CD player and turned on the system. I thought the Chenin was splendid, but....Holy Mother, the Sauvignon was into another dimenesion of musical reality. I was finally IN the music, not merely listening TO it. The difference is extraordinary. I've literally never heard sound reproduced this way before, not in any of the show rooms I've ever visited. I'm going to lend it to a dealer here in Oregon and see what he has to say, realizing that he's listened to a whole lot more high-end systems than have I. Will let y'all know what he thinks.

Waltcertain

I have a Supratek Cabernet preamp with Mundorf capacitors.

Has anyone tried swapping the Mundorfs for V Caps?

I love my preamp the way it is[TJ Meshplate 300b] but if the V Caps are better again I would be willing to try them.

Any suggestions or experience would be welcome.

Which 6sn7 in the Chenin for Classical and Jazz? I have looked through he old posts and are the Tung sol round plates the favored tubes here are there others that are less costly and just as good? Bob

Hi Bob,I have the Chenin and use a select pair of E.H. gold pin 6SN7s to very good results,I think the pair were $25.00.Listening to well recorded Jazz L.P.s through my overhauled vintage Quad electrostats,vocals along with acoustic instruments are truly shocking at times.Truth in timbre is what I hear and what I value highly.There are boat loads of vintage 6SN7s in the World,finding a silent operating vintage pair like the Tungsols,you will $PAY$.I had a pair of silent round plate Tungsols which I sold last year on Audiogon.It was pure fluke I ended up with such a quiet pair.Vintage R.C.A. 1940s are also a great 6SN7.Also if you can find a nice "quiet" pair of Sylvania metal base 6SN7A or 6SN7W metal and or the black base type.These are also a great! 6SN7 and a very handsome looking vacuum tube at that.Right now my Chenin is tubed up with a Bendix 6106 in the power supply...$20.00,I see the price has gone far beyond that now.The regulator's are apair of 6F6G Sylvania 1930s vintage clear glass,etched base with old round logo on bottle...$8.00 for the pair at a antique radio show.I bought many more 6F6gs new in the box for very little.With this combination of rectifier and regulators listening to Big Band,Hard Bop,Jazz and heavy Rock through my Dynaudio Special 25s,there is added weight,bite and slam from the lower midrange on down that is very well defined over the stock tubes.Horn sections are particularly good.Vocals and music heard through my Quads with these tubes installed are in the room with me I find more so then with stock tubes.The stock tubes are very good in the Chenin and shoulded be dismissed because most are Russian made. My phono section has a pair of Telefunken PCC88 at $40.00 apair new in the box and finally apair of R.C.A. 6C4 also an inexpensive vintage vacuum tube.I have on hand afew select line stage and phono grade tubes from Sylvania,Western Electric, Philips,Telefunken and Siemens that I have collected over the years that would have a dramatic effect in other brands of preamps and phono stages that will respond to $expensive$ vintage tubes other then SupraTek,the Chenin model in my experience anyway.