Preamp Deal of the Century

I read with extreme frustration these recent "glare" posts. Are you kidding me? Well,I guess all the owners who've made up the previous 56! pages of posts are just a bunch of mid fi hacks who just don't have the proper experiance or equipment to really show the obviously glaring faults of Supratek equipment.
"Consciously or unconsciously" is really beneath contempt.
What do the two of you actually mean by "glare"?
Certain frequencies?(which ones?)
What recordings?(please elaborate)
Solid state thinness?
Grain?
Have you tried other cables?
Have you tried different equipment combos?
The Supratek equipment isn't a tone control. Perhaps the two of you do share a certain sensitivity to certain frequencies.(Doubtfull)

Maril555-you at least sound like you've tried hard to shore up other areas,the GIK panels are excellent and should help tame or conquer the very large room influences.
Have you tried to pair the Supra with the Butler? I find it extremely hard to believe that a Nuforce pre is "glare"free while a Supra isn't?!?! What are you using to isolate your pre from your rack? Boston Audio Tuneblocks for me added a higher level of detail but made the sound thinner and what's considered "ss" like. Could be described as adding some glare perhaps.

Opus88-Apogee Diva has "glare". Yeah,right. I won't even begin to bring up how sensitive those speakers are to amps,cables,and the life long process of constantly moving them millimeter by millimeter to find the perfect spot. Yes,they're thinner sounding than Scinnies,what isn't?Oh,yes,I own multible pairs of Apogees BTW.
You seem to pride yourself in finding flaws where no one had the talent to before. And yes,I'm sure your homemade absorbtion panels are just as good as the professionally tested ones Glenn markets. Uh huh,must have "Golden Ears" while the rest of us are just struggling along with our "Lead Ears". ;^) Let's leave Stereofool out of this.

What isolation are the two of you using on your tubes? At least Herbies,I would hope.
I don't think either one of you are going to "fix" your problems by throwing tube combo after tube combo at it.
By all means feel free,when you get to the point where you've spent as much for tubes as you did for the pre,be sure to blame the pre as you seem to want to do now.

The only fault I can find that's been brought up by various long term owners is that perhaps the soundstage can be a little bit thinner front to back than a few other top line pres and that the stock remote option Alps volume control does add some veiling. The Dact unit does reportably sound better,but won't fit in the case. You picks your poison.

If either of you decide to sell your unit,you will lose a hell of a lot less on resale than for most units.
Take that to mean whatever you want,apparently us "conscious or unconscious" fools don't know what we're doing.

It's been a long day,I hope the both of you find solutions to your liking.

Wow! I have not been following this thread that closely as of late but I think it would be a whole lot more constructive to address this glare issue collectively rather than questioning ones sensory acruity or posting antagonistic and/or ambiguous retoric. Hey gang, glare can manifest itself in too many ways and can be often be rather difficult to exorcize. System synergy and resonance control are of paramount importance here, paricularly in a system capable of such high resolution. Consider how many variables involved here.....room size,room dimensions,sound pressure levels,room gain,component compatabilty,speaker type, speaker efficiency, nominal impedance and crossover type,speaker Q, amplifier topology and speaker interface, tubes,wire, component support and resonance control etc,etc, etc. A complex equasion and invariably takes some effort[and money] to bring out the best in ones rig. Opus and Maril: Would you be kind enough to post your system here? A little insight as to your past experience re: equipment and speaker type, music genre,room etc. Perhaps we can get to the bottom of this. Cheers!

Zachzib: That was quite a reply you gave ! Let me deal with your points, one by one. First, in general, from the overall tone of your response, I may have hit a sensitive chord with you about your own equipment. To get to specifics, no, I do not consider those owners who have spoken on this thread to be a bunch of "mid fi hacks". These are your words, not mine. In fact, I very much respect most of these Audiogoners' opinions. The only ones I do not respect are the wise crackers with nothing constructive to say. My "conscious/unconscious" reference is sincerely not designed to stoke the fire of contemptibility---another facsimile word of yours. At one time or another, all of us have not been fully conscious of certain goings on in our eveyday experiences. That's not necessarily a sin. I've been with people who have made me aware of things I hadn't noticed before, and so have you....As to the matter of glare, have you ever heard a sound that causes you to wince, and on repeated hearing may cause you to anticipate it with tenseness ? Though somewhat different and more painful, it's like having the dentist hit a nerve while drilling your teeth. Some components produce sounds that "hit the nerve", and with the kind of frequency that makes the listening experience more of a nervous than enjoyable one....The problem I hear is pretty much in the upper midrange. It's as if somewhat of a hump or overemphasis resides there. It's not a totally overbearing one, but a significant one nonetheless. I hear it on various record labels, and especially with horns and high strings in unison. With my previous preamp, this was not a factor, nor was the upper midrange deadened.....You asked if I have tried other equipment. Yes, and I intend to try more. I certainly have not thrown in the towel. As I said several times before, I consider the Cortese to be a superb sounding unit, the present issue notwithstanding......It seems to me that it is with the Divas that I hit the most sensitive nerve. You as much admit to this in your response. Zachzd, They were, and,I believe, still are, the finest speakers I have ever had the pleasure of owning, and I've owned quite a few (Kefs, Acoustats, Nestorovics, Martin Logans, to name some). My jaw remained dropped on the floor for so long that it became sore. Like you, I tried everything with them in an effort to deal with that upper midrange bump. Alas, I was unable to. But, I'm curious as to how they now sound to you. If you've got the sound to where you enjoy it, and I hope you do, I greatly envy you. Oh brother ! That sense of huge stage, the power, the marvelous low level underpinning---absolutely stupendous !.....As to my having "a sense of pride in finding flaws where no one else has before" (again, your words), that is not my intent, and could not be further from the truth. Man to man, imagine the kind of frustration you already alluded to with your Apogees. How do you think I feel with my situation ? Any different from you ? Yet, you seem to find my feelings in my situation to be unacceptable. Haven't you and I been experiencing essentially the same kind of frustration ?.....With regard to your next point, I never intended to imply that my homemade absorbtion panels were on the same level as those produced by professionals. They just work fine for me. And the assertion that I think I have "golden ears while everyone else has lead ears" is yours, not mine.....As to tube isolation---yes, you have a good point. I will try Herbie's......And, when you say that neither Maril555 nor I will "fix" our problems by throwing one set of tubes after another, you are probably right; but, at least, I have to learn that on my own.....Other comments from you: 'be sure to blame the preamp" and "You picks your poison." I won't respond to those bitter, misplaced statements. Rather, my wish is for you to return to your Apogee sound system in the honest hope that you thoroughly enjoy it. If you have something positive to tell me about those Apogees, I'd love to hear it. Take care for now, and I wish you the best of luck.

Hi, Brad here of Revelation Audio Labs, Inc. I want to express my most sincere and heart felt appologies to everyone who has ordered the Supratek umbilical cable and has endured a long wait. I am pleased to inform you of the good news that your wait is now very soon over. We were awaiting a back ordered component, which we have now received. Previously this component has always been readily available from our supplier, so the initial shipment commitments to our umbilical customers were based on expectation of past delivery performance by our supplier. The subsequent updated shipment commitments we made were always based on the best and latest shipment information updates from our supplier. Apparently their manufacturer was short a component for the part, so it was challenging even for them to provide an acurate projection.

Anyone who is considering ordering the umbilical for their Supratek may proceed with confidence, knowing this unforeseen delay has been overcome. Thank you very much for your understanding and patience.

Zachzdb,
I don't even want to make it a personal issue with you and your unbalanced post, I don't really care.
But I really think this discussion is helpful to all of us Supratek owners.
I think I could have not responded better, than Opus88 did.
The listening experience he's describing, reflects mine exactly- it made me first choose albums I wanted to listen to very carefully, and I found myself avoiding certain ones- as an example: Norah Johnes (the second one), Jethro Tull "Christhmas Album", many Beatles albums, all Rolling Stones SACDs, etc.
As Opus88 said, the problem is in slight elevation in the upper midrange (I think 1500-2000 Hz), it sounds almost like a resonant frequency of sort.
Am I imagining it?- hell no. It did make me wince, and turn the music off.
I'm sure room acoustics, vibration control and system synergy do play a role.
But here is my problem- I have no doubt, that Supratek emphasized all these potential problems, lying somewhere else in the system dormant, until it's introduction.
That pretty much reflects Opus88 experience as well- HE DID NOT HAVE GLARE IN HIS SYSTEM UNTIL HE BROUGHT SUPRATEK IN !!! I think that much is clear from his initial post.
Is that a Supratek "fault", I don't know, is this a culprit- most likely, which brings me back to a point I'm trying to make.
If one of the system components requires changing the whole system, cabling, supporting components, room acoustics and one's listening habits- You guessed it, something is inherently wrong.
Do I think all Supratek owners know nothing about organic sound?- NO, I DON'T.
At the same time I'm sure not going to discard my own listening experience as invalid- it is my experience, whether someone likes it or not.
My system at the time:
Modwright Signature Platinum Denon 3910- tube output stage
Supratek Chenin
BAT-75 SE
VonSchweikert VR-4JR.
As you can see not a single SS component.
I did use Herbie's on tubes and Herbie's tenderfeet under Supratek.
DIY 2" thick Maple shelves and brass rods rack, sitting on
Audiopoints.
DIY room treatments.
One comment about NuForce pre- it was introduced after I redesigned my listening room, and yes, there is no glare.
I did try Chenin with EAR-power amp (EL-34)
Butler (Hybrid design).
The glare problem was most pronounced with BAT (it does have higher resolution, than the above two amps).
For all happy Supratek owners- do not let that spoil your enjoyment, Supratek is highly musical, dynamic and exciting component.
One more comment- if you want to hear about somebody elses opinion on Supratek, please see A-gon section "Members systems", called "Almost live" in "All out assault" subsection. I think David can qualify as "non-mid-fi-hack"

Brad-
Thanks for posting here and giving everyone an update on the situation.

Maril555-
Well said! No one should discount another's impressions of what they are hearing in their systems. If you are hearing the glare - at the end of the day all that matters is that you hear it and it is not pleasing to you. That said, I must say that I have not heard glare in my system. I for one think that the Supratek preamps are very revealing of even the slightest issues in source components or system synergy, and will send downstream everything it hears. For example: my turntable and cartridge combination allow for and reveal minute changes in VTA with respect to the presentation of the music. Even the most tiny adjustments are passed by the Supratek to the amps and speakers and are very easy to hear.

Each of us should learn from the others's experiences, rather than find fault with them. Just because your experience with a product does not match mine does not make it any less valid...

Thank you Joe,
A voice of wisdom at last.

Oh dear,where do I start?
It used to be expected that anyone complaining of a Supratek problem was directed/expected to at least read all of this thread through first. Apparently it's too long now,oh well.

When you attribute system problems to a single piece of gear,you're slamming the manufacture. This obviously isn't a problem for Conrad Johnson or Audio Research or any large company. The difference is that you do far more damage to a small,formerly single man operation that lives on web word of mouth. Many people reading these complaints might get the wrong impression many or all owners suffer this "glare",thus hurting the reputation of Micks' operation. The reason I brought up all 56 pages is to show that to my knowledge(I could well be wrong here),you two are the first to complain of said problem.

There might've been mention of something similar a few pages back,but I believe it was attributed to a cartridge mismatch? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Opus88-
1)"nothing constructive to say"
I asked for specific frequencies and recordings,so that other owners could see if they could reproduce the same sounds. This is the basis of any scientific research,perhaps you've heard?

2)Your "conscious or unconscious" remark was a pompous,overbearing slam at us owners. You hear the problem,so the problem exists for all owners,we just don't want to admit it!! You missed the point of my followup,consiously or unconsiously ;^) and then follow it up with another arrogant doozie.

3)"All of us have not been fully consious(here we go again) of certain goings on in our everyday experiances"
If I could stop laughing at your runaway ego and arrogance,I might remind you that we're big boys too,and can discern any problems with our systems. So far,not one other "glare complaint" in 56!!!!! pages.

4) "Man to man,imagine the kind of frustration you already alluded to with your Apogees".
Huh? No frustration here,so stop trying to twist my meanings to suit your lack of evidence to back your case. I never said I use my Apogees everyday. The constant moving of those speakers is a labor of love,as any owner of more than 2 weeks will tell you. They sound wonderfull,yet will reward owner involvement with even greater(or sometimes lessor) sound if a person is willing to get off their duff and get involved. Think of it as similar to tube rolling,but with much greater results.

5) "I won't respond to bitter,misplaced statements"
Respond to this,jerk,those two last staements by me were an attempt to show you two that,yes,there are previously recognized faults with the Suprateks. The one that you misquoted(once again,perhaps best to check those reading glasses)is one that Mick is aware of and has tried experimenting with both Dact and Wellborne Labs volume controls to fix the problem with the remote operated pres,but to reiterate,they won't fit.
"Picks your poison" means nothing more than an owner willingly giving up some transparency for the remote option.

Maril555-
Your rebuttal is clearly much more thought out,with several specifics which is what I was aiming for,whether you or your partner in crime(just a joke,relax!) believe it or not.
I was hoping perhaps this was only happening on a few recordings. No such luck. You've tried many combinations and the problem still exists. Well,that's not helping ;^).
Clearly,unless something wrong is found inside your pre,that system synergy just isn't happening for you and no,can't expect anyone to totally redo an other wise fine system for just one component. Bad luck,that. We all can commiserate on that point. However,I do have a difference with some of your points.

1) "Unbalanced post."
I will not sit here and let anyone slam Supratek if I detect the slightest smell to their claims. That's why I keep referring to the entire thread,I would assume you would agree that if you two are the only ones to complain,you're in the VERY distinct minority.
I have also had it up to here with a certain attitude displayed on A'Gon in increasing frequency the last few years. That being:"I spend,therefore I am" philosophy. It will only get you wisdom if approached with an open mind,something I see lacking here by you two.

2)" But I think this discussion is helpful to all of us Supratek owners"
Really? Besides you two,who else? Potential buyers to scare off? No one else has backed your claims. I'm not saying they don't exist,I NEVER said that,but I'm frustrated when absolutely no one else has heard this. There are just so many variables here that you're taking for granted.

3) " 1500-2000 Hz resonant frequency".
Okay,either something internally is wrong with your pre,or you've just discovered a room fault. Resonant is vibration,period! I assume you've at least exhausted all settings on your preamps. Do the gain switches change anything? Could it be some kind of feedback with your TT/cartridge? I know you've probably long past these simple ideas,but I have to ask.

4)" He didn't have the glare in his system until he brought the Supratek in"
I hope to God you're not in charge of any important scientific research anywhere. The leaps of faith you're making are huge. Do you personally know opus88? You seem awfully sure his hearing is good,have either of you actually had your hearing tested lately? I'm serious,all of our ears change as we age,can you be absolutely positive that nothing physical is contributing to your problems? I've had my ears tested,BTW. You might be surprised at what can happen as the years go by.

5) " Almost live by Dlanslem"
You know,you had me leaning towards your side,and then just lost me with that crap. Are you kidding me? Look,anyone here can find in a matter of minutes a review that isn't totally positive about ANY piece of gear that you or I have ever heard. That's why there's so many choices. You overplayed your hand with that one,it shows you really have nothing substantial to back up your claims.

6) "A voice of wisdom at last."
Really? What specific wisdom? What actual questions were asked by Joe? None,just feel good thoughts meant to soothe. You two want your hands patted,go find your Mommies.

Oh,and opus88,I live with someone that has a degree in Psychology. Please refrain from your simpleton pop Psychology tactics. On second thought,continue,it provides us with no lack of laughter,very important these days.

Please,both of you sell your Suprateks and move on to other things,I'm sure you'll both be much happier. If not,I wish you the best of luck with your problems.

Opus and Marril,

I think you should feel perfectly at ease making the statements you have.
Your experiences are clearly not typical though.So either there is something unusual going on with your systems' synergy or you hear differently to most people.

I wonder what interconnect cables you are using?.

It seems to me that very high resolution preamps like the Suprateks do not sound right with silver cables.Such cables do seem to have a glare to them and the Suprateks simply don't suit them in my experience.
Copper seems much better and if you really want to smooth things out and take away the "brightly lit" the Van den Hul carbon fibre cables[The First] -even just used between source and preamp-are probably your best solution.

These cables are not cheap but they bring an organic sound to systems without any loss of detail or imaging.

Zachzdb,
Why are you putting yourself in a position to be a Supratek defender?. Neither one of us "slammed" Supratek. I clearly stated, that I love many things it does better, that many other preamps.
I don't think Mick's business is going to suffer from this discussion. Again, I admitted in my post, that many other factors are most likely at fault.
The fact remains though- Supratek did highlight these issues lying elsewhere, maybe because of it's very high resolution, or a slight "midrange push", that makes it sound "alive" in a well balanced system, but IMHO has a tendency to expose system shortcomings.
BTW, "midrange push" or a similar term, is something I read in Supratek review in 6moons. Many other owners stated the same in this very thread.
Next point-"you are the first two to hear this"- not true, I read this whole thread, and there are at least two other people, who alluded to a similar problem.
I don't personally know Opus88, but have no reasons to believe yet, that he's not accurate in his description of "glare", since it describes my own experience EXACTLY.
Hardly a coincidence.
Let me repeat myself again, and not because of you, but out of respect to Mick- I do like Supratek, but I DID HAVE THIS PROBLEM IN MY SYSTEM.
One more point, that you have missed.
I think I stated, that I have Cortese and Mondeuse on order.
Regarding "you living with somebody with degree in psychology'- I laughed pretty hard. Does that make you understand psychology as well. I hope your knowledge of every thing audio is not by proxy.
(I'm a psychiatrist, BTW)

A degree in psychology tells one nothing about the person who received it. Beyond that, I will not waste any more time trying to get through to a stone wall.

6) "A voice of wisdom at last."
Really? What specific wisdom? What actual questions were asked by Joe? None,just feel good thoughts meant to soothe. You two want your hands patted,go find your Mommies.

Zachdb,
My comments were not meant to "soothe" anyone. If you re-read my post, you will see that I have never reported any glare in my system. Further, I believe that my source components and downstream components are of sufficient quality to support MY PERSONAL observations and my belief that Supratek preamps are world-class. The glare others have reported in their listening experiences were THIER PERSONAL observations. In re-reading the posts, I do not see any evidence of Maril555 or Opus88 "slamming" Supratek or saying anything that could scare potential customers away. You said it best yourself when you commented that they are in the distinct minority. Ilia (Maril555) has enough faith and respect for Mick's products to upgrade to the Cortese from the Chenin. Perhaps both had issues with system synergy that emphasized the glare they were hearing. I haven't heard their systems. Agree to disagree with them and leave it at that.

I want to say that I appreciate sincerely you Audiogoners who have expressed a desire to help out with the issue at hand, and I would imagine that Maril555 feels the same way. Jtgofish, your comments about silver cable might bear looking into. For those who might mistake my meaning, I have absolutely no quibbles about silver cable per se. I've used it before, and I'm currently using it, and my experiences with it so far have been very positive. In fact, I've been waiting to receive some Poiema 3 interconnect, and of course am curious about its interaction with my system. Anyhow, based on a suggestion from Ecclectique, whose views I have consistently respected, here's what makes up my system: My amps are Air Tight ATM-3 monoblocks, turntable is VPI HW-19 Mk 3, tonearm SME IV.Vi, speakers are Dunlavy SC-4s and a dipole, ribbon/driver hybrid, made by a former friend who worked in audio and whom I consider to be brilliantly talented. If any of you are responding with "hmmm, those speakers might be problem source", I will assert that over the dozen years I have owned and listened to them, I have never experienced the slightest sound or spectral imbalance coming from them. While being extended and detailed, the treble range is smooth and very well integrated into the rest of the system. I only heard glare if other components up the chain had it, and that was pretty uncommon with the other equipment I was using. I am using the Hovland 2 phono cable, Goertz TQ2 interconnect, and bi-wired Siltech speaker cable which was purchased about a dozen years ago, and whose designation or model I cannot recall. I have not previously had any problems soundwise with the Goertz or Siltech, however, if I had to speculate as to what, if anything else, might be a contributor to my current problem, I might single out as possiblities, either one or both of these cables working in tandem. Jtgofish, you could be on the mark. Oh, I forgot to mention, though I think I did in a previous entry, that I've been using the low output (1.5mv) version of the Grado Sonata. I just purchased, and am awaiting receipt of the Benz micro L2 wood cartridge. So, that's it, and many thanks to any others out there who can offer suggestions or comments---I welcome them.

Opuss88,

I think many people must trip up with cables that do not sound neutral.Such cables might sound good in one system but not another-and because they sounded good in that system the assumption that they will still sound good when you try a different component is a flawed one.
I tricked myself for a while into thinking that silver cables sound good but their appeal starts to wear thin when you realise they are just imposing a forced and unnatural presentation on your system.To me this presented as a sort of glare-although on some recordings this glare is not as noticeable.To use a visual analogy it is a bit like watching TV with the brightness and colour turned up too high.

I know that Mick Maloney hates silver cable.If you want to make the guy squirm in discomfort just sit him down in front of a system with siver interconnects.
And he is right of course.These things are changing the sound in a very unnatural way-which may not be a problem in a low resolution or coloured system -but that is still not an excuse for their acceptance.

jtgofish:

that's odd that mick has such an aversion to silver cables. from what i recall, he wires the entire preamp with silver wire. i once asked him which cables he preferred to which he stated that anything over $200 for a pair is ridiculous in his opinion. i guess that's his way of staying neutral in the great cable war.

Kgtuner,
The internal wire might be silver coated copper but it is definitely not solid silver.I believe this cable is used due to its excellent soldering performance.
I once used a Glass Audio designed preamp that used solid silver internal cabling.It sounded horrible.

Hi gang. Just checking in on the thread and have not had the time to post my thoughts here in regards to the glare issues Opus and Maril are experiencing. Hopefully,I will find some time over the weekend. Jtgofish....BTW, all of the supratek preamps are wired with pure silver wire. However, your wiews on the use of silver wire for both speaker cabling and interconnects do mirror mine. Later....

Maril and Opuss,strange problem your having. I do hope you get to the bottom of it..... I have owned a pair of Quad 63s for going on twenty five years.I have had various electronics ,solid state and tube driving them over the years.It took awhile for me to discover these speakers should be in a room where they can breath along with ridid stands to elevate them off the floor.They have a spooky midrange magic that compared to speakers today,many would fall flat on their face. They are ruthless in reveiling anomalies in the midrange.Be it up stream electronics or in a recording. All these years that I have enjoyed them, I have never heard them sing like they do now....never... Partly due to a new room but mostly to a change in wire.Nordost mono filiment silver coated copper in my tone arm and to the phono section of my Chenin...The transformation was significate....The wire Im slowing replacing is Cardas Golden Reference to the amps and speakers. Over the past three years I have tried several differant complete runs of brands of wire. None of them even came close to what this mono filiment wire does. Though it works extremely well in my system ,it may not in yours.However look into it. It could very well be a wire issue. Hopefully it will do the trick.......Ecclectique,Im always interested in what you have to say.

I get the feeling this is going to drive the posts to over the 4000 mark - a record. It is hard to know what to do at this point. As a neurotic audiphile, this "glare" is certainly driving a pause in the unqualified praise for these units. So I do hope those who hear glare when many others apparently do not, realize the monkey wrench they are throwing into the mix, especially with a small, cottage industry manufacturer. On the surface their comments seem to be honest, which of course is what makes it worrisome, on the other hand, there appears to be many, many satisfied customers. What is an outsider to do? It shows the power of doubt and hesitation we as hobbiest are prone to. It is almost enough to throw up your hands and just get a McIntosh, which may or may not be the very best, but at least you know it is more than decent and will last a long time.

Well,if between the talents of Ecclectique and Mick this problem can't be resolved,I don't know how it would be. It's a shame we can't get more ears physically to these two systems,very difficult to solve tough problems via the web. I hope eventually we can get this solved to everyones liking.

When you take into account the hundreds of positive comments from this thread and the many happy customers that Mick has had over the past few years, I don't think that Mick has to worry about his business going down the drain, or even being affected by a couple of people that hear a glare in their system and attribute it to Supratek preamps. I am sure that the satisfaction rate for Supratek is over 99%. I believe these are the best preamps in the world per dollar spent. I don't believe the 2 guys that hear a glare in their system are saying this to bad mouth Supratek or to sabotage Mick's business. Many people have offered ideas to try to get rid of this glare. That is what I love about this thread. People try to help each other out if a problem arises. Bottom line is if you cannot solve the problem (and I hope you can), sell your Supratek and buy another preamp. If I were considering buying a Supratek for the first time and I had read even a third of this thread, I certainly would not let a couple of non glowing comments keep me from purchasing. I would advise any potential buyers to not be turned off by a problem that 2 people are having when hundreds of people all over the world sing nothing but praise for the sound of the most musical preamps in the world, Supratek preamps.

Stiltskin, Zachzdb and Slowhand...Just reading your comments gives me a much better supportive feeling about hopefully finding some solution to the matter facing both maril555 and me. Very importantly, Slowhand is absolutely correct when he asserts (speaking for myself) that I have no intention whatsoever of badmouthing Supratek or hurting Mick's business. I will say again, as I have several times earlier, that I believe the Cortese to be a superb product. I would LOVE to be able to more fully enjoy it in the same way most others have and do, and I am still confident I can. I am still in the process of trying different things, and it's probably wisest for me to kind of lay low for awhile until I can hopefully come up with the proper medicine, so to speak. I just want to relate that I found a few interesting comments on Audio Asylum from Todd Krieger (type in Supratek Cortese in Search of Amp/Preamp Asylum and look at entry #18). His choice of words---"shout" and "bombastic"---could possibly be his way of describing what Maril555 and I have been hearing. From my listening perspective, the upper midrange in particular seems to have that somewhat overly emphatic characteristic which, with certain instruments, e.g., horns and massed strings, I hear as glare, and I haven't been comfortable with it. I heard it again last night, while trying both Mullard and Amperex rectifiers, Tungsol regulators, Siemens gold pin 7308s, KenRad 6SN7s, etc. all working together. I assume that some of you would agree with me that these are pretty decent tubes. I might try Todd's recommendations with the KT-66s, etc. I read in a some previous Audiogon threads where a few Supratek owners attained results similar to Todd's using the same approach he did. In any event, I'm also preparing to experiment with several other cables (interconnect and speaker). Well, enough for now. Got to get to bed. Sincere thanks again to you fellows.

These comments made of possibly hurting Suprateks reputaion over acouple of problems, are way off. Micks sales are word of mouth,no amount of money will buy you advertising like this.Slowhand ,I hope Mick was appreciative....The preamp that I was set to buy before coming across Slowhands thread was $3000.00 more then the Chenin .I got around to comparing them side by side in my system. The Chenin wiped the floor with it especially comparing the phono stages...... Opuss hopefully you have afew audio dealers close to where you live. Getting complete runs of burnt in wire to try is not an easy thing to do.I had to be force full with some of these sales guys and store owners.

I should put all my futher comments on hold, until I get my new Cortese and Mondeuse amps from Mick.

Hi Opus. I'm sorry I couldn't respond a little earlier and thank you for posting your system as it puts a lot of things into perpective here. A very fine system sir,I am quite familiar with most of your gear and it's nice to see another vinyl guy.... as vinyl has always been my preferred medium for "voicing" my own gear. I sure can appreciate your frustration with this glare dilema, it's got to be driving you crazy by now. However, please don't shoot the messenger here....stay the course and you will discover the supratek is not the culprit. If your nos tubes in the preamp test strong,are void of microphonics and low in noise than lets look elsewhere in your set-up. BTW, are the Kenrad's the blackglass vt-231's or the clear glass 6sn7's with the parrallel black plates? [huge difference between the two]. As Stiltskin alluded to earlier, system synergy is of paramount importance here particularly with a high gain,high resulution preamp coupled to amplifiers of the same pedigree. Personally speaking....I can only offer my own experience with the use of Silver cabling but: I have had "Zero" luck with any pure silver wire in any of my rigs. An interesting story....about 10 years ago I remember hearing some top of the line Siltech interconnect and speaker wire in a friends system which consisted of: an ARC sp-8 mk2,[originally mine] a conrad johnson mv-55 outfitted and adjusted with nos tesla el34's,driving a pair of Vandersteen 2ce speakers,VPI table with rega arm, grado sonata.A very musical system and I thought... WOW,this is consideraby better than the Cardas stuff he was using prior.I was quite impressed with this so I went out and purchased the same cabling as I was using Cardas cross at the time in all 3 rigs. To be candid here and make a long story short,it was the a sonic disaster in my room[s] regardless of associated gear. I must say that I did like it's vibrant bass/ midbass quality however it was rather lean in the midrange and seemed to add a specific sheen to the presence range. Female vocals,cymbals,strings and horns seemed threadbare without body or foundation. At first I thought this was a burn in issue and the tandem needed more run in time.I was using it with a pair of proac response 3's, Arc SP-10 mk and a ARC d-79b amplifier,none of which could ever be accused of sounding bright. I then tried it in my main system rig: a huge dedicated room [ approximately 36ft x 32 ft with 16 ft ceilings]with 4 dedicated ac circuits, acoustat 2+2's,MFA Luminescence pre, Melco reference table outfitted with the venerable "the arm" by Sumiko, a Koetsu rosewood and all cardas golden cross cabling. With the Siltech in the chain... the system was unbearably bright. The presence range was very zippy sounding,bordering on edgy and was decidedly more forward in presentation within the soundfield.Hey, the SP-10's phono stage is as good as it gets at rendering a sense of depth in a good live recording... Yup, the Siltech could be considered clear and transparent and I could imagine it could be the cats meow in some rigs. To be blunt and honest here...It just drove me to distraction. Fast forward a few years...... I had acquired a pair of huge Tannoy Westminsters from a local recording studio studio for placement in this huge room and was consulting with a few other horny Tannerds with regards to updating the crossover, rewiring and voicing these humungous horn loaded transducers.The late Harvey "the Gizmo" Rosenburg had spent countless hours voicing his highly modded pr of Westminsters and was using Goertz silver wire with an active crossover and dedicated tubed amps. I was very apprehensive [to say the least]of employing any Silver cabling after my ordeal with the Siltech however, I consulted with Harvey regarding my silver wire apprehension and after many phone conversations he finally convinced me to give the Goertz a try. Well.....to make another long story short... Glare galor! Out came the silver and in went the Cardas Golden Reference, hard wired from the speaker to the outboard crossovers and back to the amps. OPUS...Just an thought here. Do you know the approximate crossover frequency on your custom hybrid speakers? I can only surmize it would be in or near the presence area or the upper presence area [2k to 3khz]. Can you bi-wire them? Silver isn't the best choice with most ribbon type tweets that I have played with, particularly when crossed under 5khz. If you can bi-wire...just for fun try some cheap copper lamp cord on the ribbon only. This should give you some kind of idea as to the signature of the silver. Regarless, I just have to say the supratek family of preamps are without doubt a true reference quality source component. I love both my syrah and cortese and can't even fathom using anything else. All the best in your endevour. Cheers.

I've been away from this post for a few weeks. Quite surprised (and disappointed) with the rancorous tone in some posts.

Anyway, I echo the comments offered to Opus88 and Maril555 to look a system contributions, especially silver. Not that copper is better, but some silver wires can react with the wiring in other components in one's system.

To wit, when I first bought my Belles 150A Reference amp, I couldn't believe my ears. It was awful! I was in shock - what were all those folks in the positive reviews talking about! I really wanted to sell it quick. But reason said I ought to look a bit deeper first.

I was using Kimber KCAG interconnects at the time, and with previously excellent results. I spoke to Dick Diamond at Kimber and he said he suspected the silver in it's present construction in the KCAG was reacting to the amp. He suggested I try the Select Series, initially in copper, and then in the hybrid if that worked out. I put in a KS-1010 (3 copper strands) between pre and amp and the glare and roughness immediately went away. I bought a KS-1011 (six copper strands) and put it in between my CD and pre, and the sound improved again. I took a deep breath, and bought a KS-1021 (two silver strands and 4 copper). The sound was even clearer. No glare. Finally upgraded to another 1021 between CD and pre. Better yet. Confident now that the Kimbers would work well in my system (YMMV), I went for further synergy and got Kimber Bi-Focal XLs for the speakers. Further improvement.

When I bought the Chenin, I was curious as to whether my cables would work well with it. They do. The reason you see so few Kimber Select interconnects for sale used is because for most people, they are the end of the line.

Another cable experience that might be of help: If your power cables are not neutral, they can liven up your Supratek too. A long time back, I tried the Electraglide cords. They compensated for some dullness in system caused by a Panamax power conditioner. When I changed to a neutral power conditioner (Shunyata Hydra), whoa! was everything bright and uneven. At the suggestion of Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata, I neutraled-out the system with some Kimber PK-10s (a basic Belden cord) and A-B'd the Hydra and Panamax. That identified the Panamax as the deadener and the Hydra as neutral. Went to Shunyata Taipan Helix cords all round (also neutral, but very fast). That eliminated power cords and conditioning as a source of system imbalance.

I should also mention that I also was not happy with the top end in the Tungsol 5881s in my Chenin. I didn't have glare, but the high frequencies seemed over-emphasized and the low end under-emphasized. The Sovtek KT-66s were better. I eventually went to NOS RCA 6L6As, which are balanced from top-to-bottom like the KT-66s, but more detailed.

Hope this helps. And good luck!

Eccletique...Thanks very much for your concerned and very interesting response. The audio experiences you relate cause me to smile, because I am quite familiar with several of the components (other than the Siltech and Goertz cables, the VPI 'table and the Sonata cartridge) that you mention. At one time, I also had Acoustat speakers, a Conrad Johnson MV-55 and a pair of Harvey Rosenberg's Moscode amps. A good friend of mine also had Moscodes, both the Audio Research SP-8 and 10 and Vandersteen speakers. But let me get to a few other points you mention. The KenRads I have are the black glass JAN Vt231s (a couple of very nice pairs). Today, I followed your suggestion, and bought an inexpensive, small spool of copper speaker cable. I also got hold of an inexpensive pair of ofc interconnects. The first thing I did was to replace the Goertz with the ofc ics, fresh out of the box. All I'll say at this moment is "interesting". I've now got them burning in on my Hagerman FryKleaner Pro. I want to wait until I get a good take on the interconnect before proceeding with the trial of the speaker cable. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I'd experienced the glare with both vinyl AND cd playback. I also found that almost regardless of tube changes, the same fundamental problem persisted. You, Jtgofish and most recently, Ikkyu2 have all given similar impressions and expressed similar feelings about silver vs. copper. Since I never before heard any problems with silver wire in my system, it's possible I may have lost sight about the kind(s)of sound differences produced by the introduction of different components into the audio chain. Based on my long experience with audio, you'd think I'd know better. I think many of us still find ourselves surprised and even shocked sometimes at the seemingly "illogical" sounds we hear listening to a system that just had even one component substituted for another. It seems, at times, that a good deal of the objective data out there can prove to be somewhat irrelevant in terms of what we are led to expect vs. what we actually get, and in addition, whether or not we are satisfied with what we get. Will update later.

Hi Guys,

Sorry if this is off current topic but.....

I have just received my new chenin pre-amp and I am blown away by its (stock) performance. (compared to vintage CJ PV10a)

Not shy of tube rolling I was wondering if there was a (general) consensus (after 5 yrs cumulative worth of posts!!!) as to the best NOS tubes to employ to gain further sonic benefits.

Is the WE 350B, Tung Sol VT231/6SN7 Round Plate, Phillips Miniwatt GZ34 metal base plate still the way to go or has their been progression?

thanks

As an FYI to folks following this thread, I just recieved a notice from Brad at Revelation Audio Labs that the custom umbilical for the Supratek power supply is on it's way to me. To those of you waiting for yours, you should be hearing from Brad shortly...

Hi King,

Not sure if you caught this great thread (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1112733965&) on tuberolling in the Supratek.
I have a Chardonnay that I purchased last year. After some of burn-in with the stock tubes, I found the sound a bit thin and subsequently did some tube rolling per the experience and recommendation on this thread. After trying many different 6sn7s, and regulator tube varieties, and also many different permutations of each, I arrived at my current tube components which are also, BTW, sited by many on this thread! (National Union 350b, Tung-Sol 6sn7gt RP and a Bendix 6106). With this line-up the sound is big with a lot of weight and substance.(Brimar CV1988 and Kenrads are also quite nice in the line stage.) I have also tried the Philips metal base GZ34 but find the 6106 provides a more focused presentation. You should give both of these rectifiers a try and see what sounds best in your system.

Powers

Thanks for the reply and the headsup on the tube rolling thread. As far as I can gather from reading the thread, there's still no real consensus as people have different setups and wants from their systems.... however a few notable tube examples keep poppin up over and over, 350b, Tung-sol RP, Bendix 6106, Kenrads etc to name a few....
(However $400 for a matched WE 350B nos pair is a bit pricey!)

So i'll try the 6106 first and go from there :o)

Thanks for the advice.

Yea, consensus is tough...kinda like herding cats!

Explore different tubes and listen for what you like!
Above all...Have Fun

Happy Anniversary Everyone!

Five years! ....and still going!

Thanks Slowhand!

Dave

I initially read the glowing reviews of the Supratek and just naturally assumed they were unbiased. After reading the way some of you attacked the two posters who were just asking for help in resolving system issues I now realize that many of you are so small in your perspectives and lives I can never believe anything written here.

Let's see. Nearly 3,000 posts over a five-year period written by dozens of different people, you see a couple of negative ones written by the same guy, and you are ready to dismiss the whole lot? Exactly who is "small" in their perspective?

Any group of posters devoted to one product, be it Supratek, or something else entirely, is a scewed sample.
I imagine that only those with a positive experience will bother to post here.
If I didn't like a certain component, I would never post in respective thread, just simply move onto something else.
Another consideration- if one doesn't like component, this means one needs to sell it. Posting ones negative impressions about it would not increase it's market value, would it?
Does it make Supratek an inferior product?- absolutely not.
Is Supratek beyond criticism?- possibly not.

As far as I know, no one has suggested that the Supratek is "beyond criticism." It is simply a preamp that very many audiophiles have bought and now consider the "crown jewel" in their systems because they find it pleasing to their ears. Maril555, with all due respect, what evidence do you have that this number represents a "scewed (sic)sample"?

Obviously, audiophiles are a finicky lot by nature, and no product will ever satisfy every one of us. I think what I find irritating about these recent posts is NOT that they are critical of Supratek gear--if you guys say you have a glare in your system, I don't doubt that that is what you hear. It's the assumptions embedded in these "critiques" that irritate me: One, the positive reponses represent a skewed sample. Two, people who have less than satisfying impressions are reluctant to post them because they don't want to be negative. Three, people cannot be relied upon to give their real impressions because it would negatively impact resell value. In short, it is assumed that there is this "pool" of people out there somewhere who have had bad experiences with Supratek gear who are simply not posting about them.

In my years in the hobby, it has certainly not been my impression that audiophiles are reluctant to post their impressions--good or bad--of the many different pieces of gear that come and go in their systems. My own impression is that people in the hobby can be as ruthlessly honest about stuff they don't like as they are prone to hyperbole in lavishing praise on the stuff they do like.

What we have seen in this thread is that a great many people love the Supratek gear, while a handful of others have found problems that detract from their enjoyment of it. It is absolutely true that the experience of the many does not negate the experience of the few. It is also true that the experience of the few does not negate the experience of the many. If we can agree on this, why look for theories on why there are so many more positive responses than negative ones, UNLESS you have an ax to grind?

I personally don't have any axes to grind, but my point is this:
Just to make an example- in the field of medical research there is a term called "file drawer effect". What this means is- for instance if one is to read all published studies about drug X being efficacious for the treatment of desease Y, one will possibly find 3,4,5 or any number of published studies that found drug X indeed more efficaciuos than placebo. So you wou would assume, that this is a scientifically proven fact.
But, and a very big one is- at least in medicine, where most studies are sponsored by drug companies, only the studies with positive findings get published, and the ones with negative go to the "file drawer".
To a certain degree you can see the same effect here. Hypothetical people, who didn't find Supratek working in their systems are not likely to post in this very thread (I know, I wouldn't).
There are components I had in my system, that I didn't like, but after selling them, I simply will have no interest to post in the dedicated thread my negative impressions. I know I didn't like it, and will never buy it again- why spoil enjoyment for those who did?
Audiophiles are not hesitant to post a negative view in appropriate context.
I'm sure there are people who do not care for say, CJ or Krell sound. I can hardly imagine them going to forum dedicated to CJ, or Krell and bash the product there.

Walter, live long and prosper.
George

Maril ...just as a matter of interest, have you discussed your concerns with Mick Maloney? It seems strange that any Supratek piece should exhibit glare, it is not in the mien of valve gear to sound glarey. Quite the opposite really, valves are traditionally chosen for their smooth and musical presentation and it is usually the case for solid state equipment that glare needs to be controlled.

I know Mick Maloney personally and have owned five of his preamps over the last ten years - none have ever exhibited any glare (and my system is razor sharp! with Raven ribbons etc.). Mick is an analogue guy (loves vinyl and truthful music), his design philosophy majors on musicality above all else. I think he would be shocked to learn that someone thinks that one of his products sounds glarey.

In one of the earlier posts Opus88 describes the sound of horns as being perhaps bombastic or with emphasised upper mids on his Cortese. I would have thought this is how horns are *supposed* to sound, certainly when you are in front of live performance the trumpets and horns blare and blat at you with uncanny acoustic power! they do not sit in the backround ...

Is it feasible that you are actually hearing for the first time how these instruments *should* sound with all the attack and transients of the instruments intact, and perhaps you are being unnerved by the experience? Listening to Supratek gear may require a paradigm shift in both thinking and hearing??

Anyway, I'm just trying to be constructive and would suggest you send an email to Mick about all of this. The guy is very good to deal with and is a master of sonic tailoring, he can get your preamps to sound anyway you might like it ...

Regards,

Steve M.

Stevem1960,
Your points are very valid, and I did try to convince myself, that what I was hearing is the way actual instruments should sound like. But at times it simply was "too much".
You are very right about a possible need for a "paradigm shift in hearing and thinking". Just might not be that easy for some.
Actually I did contact Mick a few times, and he was very helpful trying to resolve "the problem".
At any rate, I've decided to give it another chance, and ordered Cortese and Mondeuse amps- delivery pending.
Will see.
I'm not so sure if Mick could change a sonic signature of the preamp, or at least he wasn't very enthusiastic when I asked.

Trust me, Mick *can* make a preamp sound anyway he likes( the man is a whiz and I've seen and heard it first hand), but I suppose its not possible to suggest these things because of the tyranny of distance. Be forwarned, the Cortese is at another level and will peel away even more layers to reveal and flesh out the music to the nth degree, I hope your speakers are up to it ...

Regards,

Steve.

I just wanted to respond to the well intended comments Stevem1960, who says, "...Opus88 describes the sound of horns...with emphasized upper mids on his Cortese. I would have thought this is how horns are *supposed* to sound.....It is feasible that you are actually hearing for the first time how these instruments *should* sound...and perhaps you are being unnerved by the experience ? " Unnerved ? Yes, that is true. How horns are supposed to sound ? You are partially correct. Horns are certainly capable of producing strident sounds when called for, however, I have been hearing blare at times in passages where I have never heard it in the same passages of these compositions performed live in symphony concerts. I also have heard these passages reproduced in my component system, prior to the introduction of the Cortese, WITHOUT the "supposed to sound" glare. I've heard horns and massed strings sound urgent, vibrant, assertive, ambient AND wonderfully musical and naturally flowing all at the same time. I was able to relax while simultaneously enjoying impressively dynamic and electrically alive transients, sometimes projected with a stunning sense of grandeur. I had that kind of musical reproduction in my sound system a number of years back, then lost it. I'm confident I will get it back again, and WITH the Cortese. A paradigm shift, in the usual sense, is not going to correct the issue I am dealing with, and I certainly will not tell myself that I need to change what my own ears are telling me. Maril555's point about trying to convince himself "...that what I was hearing is the way actual instruments should sound like...But at times it simply was 'too much'" is understood very well by me. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that all recorded music is made possible by the utilization of a vast array of electronic equipment---capacitors, resistors, wires, etc., not to mention the manipulations by sound engineers during that recording process. AFTER all that, our home or studio components take over the job. Under such circumstances, neutrality or "correct" sound possibly might be somewhat illusive. And finally, there's the listener's own subjective preferences in terms of how HE wants the illusion of live music presented to him in his living or sound room. I hope I may regain the kind of illusion that pleases me.

Well said Opus88, a good description of the varying nature of recorded music vs. live performances. Sometimes I just can't understand what's going on in my system, it can be spot on one minute and then you fiddle with something and that illusive 'real' quality is gone - best not to fiddle when you feel the magic is in place!

My current pet annoyance is that no matter what I do, my humble $100 Marantz analogue FM tuner sounds nicer (more natural to my ears) than my $5,000 CD replay system with $2,000 worth of fancy cables attached to it. This shouldn't be the case when most audiophiles consider tuners (with their limited bandwidth) to be a secondary source?

With home audio its best to savour the good moments while they last and try to ignore irksome (perceived) problems ...hard to do I know, because of our pedantic male driven audiophile tendancies. Other than that, perhaps we just need to go see more live performances to remain grounded.

Regards,

Steve.

Stevem1960: Some of your last comments certainly are refreshing. Your reference to the sound of the little Marantz in comparison to the $5000 cd replay system and the $2000 worth of fancy cables probably strikes the kind of chord that sounds familiar to a number of others out there. ( I just noticed Tvad's admission, for example.) I also feel it sort of mirrors one of my recent comments (3-26) about objective data or numbers sometimes proving to be irrelevant in terms of what we are led to expect or believe vs. what we actually get. And yes, sometimes things do sound just right, but then that can't leave well enough alone tendency rears its ugly head. That's part of the explanation of how or why I lost what I once had. Oh well, back to the quest for peace of mind sound.

Tvad: I know the feeling with tape recorders, they're an excellent medium. I use to transfer my CDs onto Nakamichi tape decks or a nice Pioneer RT-909 reel-to-reel (Mick's got that machine now) and the results were superb! Kind of like the music got 'analogued' along the way...all for the better. I think the same thing is happening with FM's treatment of CD sound, that's why it sounds nicer.

There's no doubting CD's convenience and generally competent sound, so that's the medium for most of us I suppose.

Opus88: Isn't it ironic that we are being sold more and more technology these days, on the basis of number crunching creates better sound(all at high cost), but in all honesty the truth and beauty of music seems to be locked up in the old mediums like the ancient thermionic bottles we all like (a la tube devices like Supratek); analogue tape or vinyl & to a lesser extent FM transmission; good ol' Class A amplification is still hard to beat and electrostatic loudspeakers are still a reference point. Even some of the old point source loudspeakers like the Goodmans Axiom 80 and Coral Beta 10 (now some 30yrs old) are still unsurpassed.

When you've been doing hi-fi for a few decades, it seems to be a common thing amongst older audiophiles that life goes full circle. Some of the good things you heard are still good. I've tried a lot good gear over the years from valves to digital amps, from Accutons to ribbons etc. and the older stuff still competes (and exceeds) in a lot of areas. Its not nostalgia or your imagination either - it just is.

The high cost of Hi-Fi is hard to justify. Non-audiophiles must think we are MAD spending the dollars we do on equipment, for little improvement. I almost puke(Aussie slang for vomit) when I pick up a copy of Hi-Fi+ magazine these days. Don't get me wrong, this is a good magazine displaying dream-like thoroughbred equipment, but come on, you've gotta be kidding! There are small amplifiers with a toroidal transformer and a few circuit boards in that magazine that cost as much as my new Subaru Outback H6 SUV (bristling with the latest technology and a 180kW hi-tech motor), there's just no comparison for value, and they have the cheek to call the amplifier 'a bargain' at $50,000!

Anyway, time for me to go back to listening to some cool music with the mantra ...'I am happy with what I've got' ...'I am happy with what I've got' ...

Cheers,

Steve.

Stevem1960,

I can relate to what you are saying about "leaving well enough alone". This is the exact reason why I refuse to tube roll with my Cortese. I love the sound I get with the stock tubes. This is the way Mick set the preamp to sound and it sounds fantastic to my ears. I am getting that "magic" sound from my system now. I am not going to screw things up by trying to improve the sound with NOS tubes! I hope everyone can find the magic in their system. It is there somewhere. If and when you find it, leave things alone and enjoy the music!

Slowhand: I have'nt tube-rolled for five years! And, I've got many nice 6SN7's including Mullards; Brimars; Sylvanias; Toshiba and KenRads ...waste of time, Micks preamps are BEST as delivered with fresh tubes and as adjusted by him. Tube rolling is the proverbial dog-chasing-tail ...all IMHO.

Regards,

Steve M.

Oh, I forgot. My Sony SCD-1 is on it's way back to me from having the latest VSEI upgrades done to it. Oh No! I hope I have not lost my magic!

I totally agree with you Steve M. You can buy a lot of great music for what NOS tubes cost.