I checked the date on the feedback from my Cortese's first owner. I was wrong...bought the preamp from him in early 2003 and he said that had had it for about 8 months, so build date was early-mid 2002. Sorry about that. |
Curriemt, sorry about your Cortese. There is not much I can do to help. From my experience, the Cortese is a much more solid unit and exhibits zero microphonics.
I respect Aesthetix. The IO Sig was my favorite phono stage of all I've owned. If you want my comments about the Janus please email me directly instead of in this forum. |
Brian,
I'm not aware of what it is that has made you lose faith in Supratek, its probably just the fickleness of audiophilia or that you have suffered burn-out who knows? You are quite within you're rights to express these alternative views (as we all are), but you are just plain wrong about the statement that the Suprateks are somehow not hi-end.
IMHO (and with 25yrs experience of playing around with hi-fi), the Supratek Cortese and Cabernet would be placed among the BEST preamps ever created. I mean, you have people on the planet running their $130,000USD Avantegarde horns with the Supratek Cortese and loving it, if this doesn't say something about the high quality of the preamp nothing does!
I have tried passive devices and run directly to the CDP, and have not found these options to be better than my Supratek preamp. The music deadens and becomes lifeless and one dimensional when running passive. The Supratek preamp somehow picks up the signal and brings it alive, all full of clarity, emotion and realness - I can't explain it on any level of electrical theory, IT JUST DOES. There are things hidden in recordings that only the Supartek preamps seem to flesh out, the ambience of the venue, the spacial clues of the performers on a stage, the timbre, texture and long decay of instruments etc.
It's not for want of trying with passives either, as I have used the Mod Squad passive pre; Audio Synthesis Passion attenuator; D.A.C.T attenuator; and Sowter transformer pots. The direct to CDP route to me sounds a bit electronic (digitalised for want of a better word).
My initial comments about speaker quality and the hidden beauty of Supratek preamps was not meant to put anyone off-side. I was merely stating that if you have ultra hi-rez speakers you will truly know what your Suprateks are capable of. Perhaps those of you running electrostats with your Suprateks might want to chime in here...
Regards,
Steve. |
I can't find my owner's manual for my Chenin. Does the Chenin have two sets of amplifier inputs for bi-amping? Bob |
Hi Steve, Okay... please don't take what I wrote as being down on Supratek per se'. A few posts above, I wrote to Baranyi that one must spend A LOT of money to do better than the Supratek.
I did not state that the Supratek wasn't "high-end". I asked for you to by-pass the Supratek and run your source direct to the amp. That is the only way you will ever know what the Supratek REALLY does to the music.... and until you have tried it, everything you say about it is absolutely meaningless. Sorry. There is no other way to really understand what is going on until you elimiate what it does.
Running direct to the amp means NO ATTENUATION. Use Bolero by Ravel to do the test because it starts off very quiet and gradually becomes louder. You can stop the track before it gets too loud.
I used an Aesthetix IO Signature phono preamp set to 50db running direct to my amp. I imagine this test will work with any source... But... CD's always seem to sound more musical through a Supratek regardless. I guess the colorations really help that format. The real test is pure analog running direct. That will show you the truth.
Having heard what the Supratek did to the music, I immediately went to a passive design and it was terrible! Killed dynamics, clipped harmonics, and just destroyed the sound. Replacing the passive with the Cortese made things much better but... I could still hear the colorations of the Supratek.
I have since tried this with many preamps and they all diminish the source signal consierably.
Yes.. I agree 100% the Supratek brings a lively & emotional feeling to the music via coloration - but to me it does lack transparency. To justify that statement, let me just say I know a few Supratek owners who have changed the stock attenuators to DACT attenuators and report greater transparency.
I guess what set me off is the suggestion that better speakers would allow us to hear more of the Supratek's inner detail because I wanted to hear less of the Supratek' effects (both positive and negative) and more of the music.
Even though I love the Supratek, I have gripes with the design and implementation. Maybe I HAVE grown frustrated.
I know the Supratek is good but I think it can be better with a few somewhat minor changes. |
Baranyi,
My Chenin's lay-out(back) goes like this:
From Left To Right
Phono(input1), Input2, Input3, Input4, REC(Tape), Play(Tape), Out1, Out2, Gain (Independent Channel Balance on Mine), and Power.
Enjoy |
Thanks Amandarie! I noticed that you sold your H2O. Where are you going now with your system? Bob |
Nicely said Brian and I can appreciate where you are coming from. I'm curious though, as to how you are able listen 'direct' from your turntable without any attenuation - this is not a realistic option in the real world (in order to keep domestic harmony)? In this 'direct' situation you are also assuming that your amp is completely uncolored (which it cannot possibly be).
While I can certainly appreciate that removing the preamp removes a whole lot of electronics from the music reproduction chain, for most of us a control centre a la Supratek preamp is still a necessity. I still maintain that as you move towards hi-rez speakers you will hear more of what your Suprateks are doing.
Regards,
Steve. |
>>I still maintain that as you move towards hi-rez speakers you will hear more of what your Suprateks are doing.<<
Steve, I don't think anybody would argue this point but the same could be said of any reference level component be it interconnect, phono cartridge, etc. As the overall system resolution increases it naturally enables each component to perform optimally. There's no question that a Supratek linestage/preamplifier sounds better with high rez speakers but it is not an absolute necessity to enjoy it. All of course IMO. |
Steve, you are right, one must have attenuation. Sorry, I didn't intend to imply that running a phono stage direct to an amp would be a good idea for long term usage. It is only an experiment.
Listening with and without a preamp is the only real way to find out just how much it impacts the sound.
Right again - I am sure that amplifiers are colored too however - I have yet to figure out how to drive speakers without an amplifier. :) |
I use both the Syrah and the Cabernet with two different systems. A big one with Sound Lab A-1, electrostatics, and Wolcott monoblocks (220 watts/ch) and other "less big" system with Cary 805AE, that uses 845 or 211 tubes with Von Schweikert db99 loudspeakers with ribbon supertweeter. Both systems sound very clean and detailed and both systems have similar "electrostatic" sound. In my opinion the Supratek preamps tend to make an uncolored sound, althoug of course it depends on the tubes on them and the rest of the system. The Cabernet is in some noticeable degree cleaner, more detailed and autoritative then the Syrah. I also tried my Wadia directly to my amps and the music seems clearer but at the end it´s metalic and I agree that it´s flat and without life.
About tubes I´m using in my Cab (and also part of them in the Syrah) Philips GZ34 metal base, WE350B as regulators, although lately I´ve tried also Sylvania 5932 with good results as a much lower price, Tung Sol 6SN7 round plates and TJPX4, in my Cab I can use also WE300B in place of PX4 but in my opinion the TJ sounds better.
If any of you want to take a look what are my loudspeakers here are they in their web
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/a1.htm
http://www.vonschweikert.com/db99_speaker.html
Bwhite, try to investigate on the old Tannoys monitor gold (http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm) they´re easy to drive one point source speakers. I´m driving them in my bedroom with Sun Audio 2A3 integrated amp at low level with lush and delicated sound. |
Thanks Amandarie! I noticed that you sold your H2O. Where are you going now with your system? Bob Sold it because of financial reasons. I cannot justify a $2800 amp being used only 3 hours a week max lately. But I will be back! I am looking at Apogee and Henry's M series in the future. regards |
I just noticed this on AA. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1128830279&read&3&4& |
Does anyone have a pair of used (broken in), quiet EH6SN7's they would be willing to sell me? I'd prefer not to have to wait for a long break in.
Also, has anyone used EL34's in the regulator position in a Syrah? And, if so, what was your opinion?
Thanks-Pat |
Depending on your system, you might prefer passive preamps versus active. It's never been the case for me though. I've always enjoyed a good pre (such as the Supratek) between my source and CDP. FWIW, I use SETs for the most part.
Tbg, nice effort to knock the product line. But I'm sure you'll tell me that wasn't your intention. |
Oops I meant "source and amp," not "source and CDP" (which obviously makes no sense). |
Whoopadeedoo, before casting aspersions, see what I said there. |
I saw the thread on the used Merlots. Seemed that the buyer's problem and comments should have been directed towards the seller. Instead the 2nd-hand buyer seemed intent on trying to get a freebie from the builder. I've got 2 Supratek preamps and I'm not able to relate any issues with build quality. |
Jazzdude, I don't think we know the real story in this case. I think, however, that we cannot say much about the buyer except that he did not get what he expected. I certainly never saw wiring such as shown in the pictures within my Syrah. |
Whether or not Mick chooses to comment on this incident publicly, there's a lot more going on here than the second buyer knows, according to a reliable source. |
I have read comments before about the "hanging tube" found in Merlot monoblocks. I suspect the photos are of a Supratek developed and factory executed design.
If you look inside a new Supratek preamp, it is much cleaner looking because there is less going on inside the small chassis - but still it is not clean enough.
A few posts above, I commented that Suprateks would be better with some "minor" changes. This is exactly the kind of thing that I was referring to and why I chuckled when it was suggested that better speakers will allow us to hear more of the Supratek. |
A slight change of tack, but important(at least to me).
Have bought about half a dozen pairs of nos 6SN7s.
Two sets of CBS Hytrons - both pairs have a noisy one in the pair and are slightly different so can't make a good pair.
One pair of Sylvanias that were nice till one 'gave up' - loss of one channel and a gentle @rushing'noise thru one speaker.
Another set of Slyvananias, one dead on arrival, installed the replacement(when it arrived) and within 10 minutes, a bang, a high pitched scream followed by a very frightening, extremely loud & getting louder by the second noise thru the right speaker.
I was very glad I was sitting near the power amp and able to dive over & switch it off !
I now have 6 really nice single 6SN7s , CBS Hytrons, rca and a 3 different Sylvanias - none of which are exactly the same type so can't make decent quiet pair.
Using cheapo Valve Arts which are at least quiet and seem dependable but not the cat's whiskers soundwise.
What worries me more is what damage will a tube letting go do to my system ??
Sorry for my ignorance but I'm fairly new to tubes.
I had to buy a passive radiator for my Virgos and hate to think what a tweeter and mid unti would cost.
I'm tempted just to go for a pair of new Electro Harmonix and hope for the best.
Thanks in advance,
Simon |
Simon, IMO it's important to know who you are buying tubes from. Many of the NOS tubes for sale are 30-50 years old and their history/storage/handling is critical. I have a vendor whom I trust because all of the tubes are tested and guaranteed. That being said, I probably have paid a few (actually more than a few) dollars more than I could have but peace of mind is worth it to me. You know the old penny wise dollar foolish thing. I don't need the repair bills and/or down time because I saved $10 on a pair of tubes.
Two things I would do are ask Mick about the specific tube you want to use and then find a reputable vendor who will back his product. |
Hi Gang. Mustang... Ahmen and well said! Lugnut... "you got mail".....Simon....If you can ascertain the vintages of the good singles you have I would most likely have a mate for any one of them. Feel free to email me. Just catching up on the thread here as I recently experienced a full scale computer crash, I am a certified knucklehead with these damned computers. AHHHHHH!. For those without a tube tester or do not have a trusted source for nos tubes.... the EH 6sn7 is a very synergistic tube for line gain in the supratek's and really a no brainer. I have been running in a pair in my Syrah [about 40+ hours] and am more than a little suprised at how good they really work in the curcuit, they sound considerably better after the 24 hour mark. Gotta go now.. cheers |
Hi Guys, thanks for that. I didn't exactly skimp on the price of some of tubes.I have had a few free replacements but not much luck with these either.
I kind of get the impression that a good set of readings can be fairly meaningless unless someone actually listens to the tubes?
No one tried to rip me of, the tubes were all tested, how well I'm not sure. It just gets tedious putting in new tubes which sound lovely, only to find one is usually too noisy to be bearable or else tries to kill my speakers.
I'm thinking of doing a bit sculpture/artwork along the lines of the NOS tubes graveyard, should look quite cool !
Simon |
Simon, FWIW the Sylvania 1958 6SN7WGT Chrome Top is a killer tube. One of my favs. Good luck. |
For Berning & Supratek users:
I recently removed one pair of my TF ECC 801s in my Berning ZH270 and replaced them with a pair of 60's Mullard 12AT7s from Andy.
I also just put a new EG Epiphany on my Berning.
The Epiphany is amazingly transparent, but I am getting a hardness in the upper midrange and treble that wasn't there before.
It could be just a break-in issue of the tubes and/or the Epiphany. I only have about 20 hours of playing time on each and probably about 100 hours of idle time on each.
I can be patient during break-in, but if anyone can confirm that the Epiphany or the Mullards may possess the hardness I am hearing, I will simply remove the offending piece from my system.
Thanks in advance. |
Hi Simon,
I have reading this thread and learning from it for quite sometime. I have my Chardonnay about 1 year ago, purchased from Mick. After a year of listening and tube rolling, I think I can give a bit of my humble opinion for those interested. Firstly, I think Chardonnay is not the last word of resolution (who need that?) but a very enjoyable preamp. Secondly, I think it does not have a sound of its own, but it is a playground of tube rolling (my previous preamp was Nagra PLP, which I have tried tube rolling only a couple of times). You hear the sound of different tubes, not the sound of the preamp itself. I am using a Emmlabs/ DAC6e front end, a 300B SET mono amp and Kharma 1.1 at the moment. My speakers were Watt/puppy 6 two months ago but Kharma is a notch better in terms of mid/ high resolution so that I am hearing more difference in tubes now. I have tried certain 6SN7 including Slyvania, tungsol, RCA red base 5692, CBS hydron 5692 etc but I am now using the stocked EH 6SN7. For this position, I think the EH does a very fine job in providing a well balanced sound with reasonable refinement. It has better bass than most tubes I have tried. Some may have a more refined high but none have a more balanced sound except the GE side-getter which I think is the best buy NOS. If you use EH 6SN7 with the stocked Sovtek 5881 (in my Chardonnay), you will get enlarged focus, coarse sound with diminished air. It will be fun to fiddle with the regulators then. I have tried differnt brand of 6F6G recommended in this thread and they are fine in this position. I personally prefer Visseaux to Sylvania for better high frequency performance but I am sure if your can find one. I have tried Miniwatt 6F6G but they are inferior to Sylvania. For the moment, I am using Sylvania 5881 for this position for a more solid bass performance and more realistic texture (especially piano), sacrifying a little air comparing with Visseaux 6F6G. I have also tried some KT66 in this position but they sounded superficial (brilliant but without a solid ground). Forget to mention, I am using a Fulmusic mesh plate 274B in place of rectifier. It improves the resolution of the preamp a lot (don't use the gray plate Fulmusic 274B, the resolution is much inferior). But I have to admit that I have not tried WE 274B or Philips metal base 5AR4. I have tried Mullard 5AR4 which seems to have a floppy bass and too syrupy for my liking.
Lastly I must say sound is very much system dependent and personal taste is very personal. You can only try it in your system to see whether it suits you or not.
YWLee |
Hi Ywlee,
thanks for that pretty full description.
My feeling is to try the EH, more for peace of mind
over reliability matters than out & out sound.
I like most of the RCA, CBS & Sylvanias more than the tubes
I'm presently using.
Probably get shot down in flames but I find far bigger differences can be had with power cords than tubes on 'my' pre in 'my' system.
The Harmonix Studio Master is a revelation on my Syrah - how I'm not sure - take it out & replace with all manner of Shunyatas, Electraglides, PS Audio, Z-Squared etc, etc and they just don't sound as 'right'.
Shunyata - 2 organic - Electraglide - smeared ad finitum.
The Harmonix allows the Syrah to differentiate layers of depth, harmonics, hall ambience and macro dynamics that none of the other power cords seem to allow it to show.
Seriously thinking about taking out the rear gain control, doing away with the remote and fitting a better volume control and some 100 ohm resistors directly on the phono inputs - or rather having my mate who knows all this stuff inside out to do these mods for me.
Strange days indeed for someone who till recently could not live without at least a remote volume!
OK - I own up, my new rooms so small, I can just reach over and crank it up, it will have to be retro refits if I ever have to move my ass of the couch again to reach it.
Si :-) |
Simon74,
Which Electraglide did you try with your Syrah? |
Hi Fiddler,
tried the Mini Khan Plus & the Ultra Khan rev2.
The Mini Khan beats all on my cd player but neither comes close to the Harmonix on the Syrah (imo)
Not happy with no grounds however,may be ok with 120V but a bit dangerous with the voltage here in the UK so I wouldn't contemplate any of their more expensive cords.
Also tried Shunyata Taipan Alpha and King Cobra V2.
A pair of Python Alphas enroute but doubt the Harmonix will
be dethroned at least on the Syrah !
Cheers Simon |
Hi Simon,
Just want to share my experience of power cord as well. Power cords make a big difference in sound, that's certain, and I had been through that game before. I must say I had spent more than a little fortune in experimenting with power cords and interconnects. I had been a Shunyta fan for sometime and I still own a original Hydra which is corian made and gorgeous looking. I had used two king cobra 2, 2 vipers, and 1 taipan at one time. Finally, at least in my system, I found them excellent in most aspects especially ambience and high frequency performance. It is as silky as you can imagine. But there is a severe drawback with them in my system, that is sound without a backbone. They softens the transient and attack such that a piano never sound right. I had tried PS audio, various NBS (including monitor 0), siltech, VDH, Taralabs, MIT and some others. Finally, I found that I likely most the raw sound with big gauge solid core copper power cord which preserves the transient and harmonics with the least addition or subtraction effect. I am using some cheap Acrotec 4050 (50amp) power cords through out my system, taking from a set of Exactpower EP15A + SP15A balance transformer system. I had use the Harmonix studio master also, long before the Supratek time. My humble impression is that it has an elegant sound, plus a golden colour on top. Its bottom is very clean and tight, its high beautiful but inadequately extended. It is not as transparent as I prefer (personal taste again, and system dependent, of course).
Lee |
Hi Gang,
I just recieved my new Cortese yesterday. This thing is beautiful! A true work of art. I got the Sheoak with black top and gold knobs. The black top really shows off the Sheoak wood. It has a beautiful "lace" look to it. The pictures on Mick's website don't do it justice at all. I will be installing the tubes tonight. I took the bottom off and no wonder it is so heavy! Mick put the Mundorf Supreme caps in for me. He said they will take a long time to break in.
Here is my question for anyone that recently recieved a new Cortese. There is a toggle switch on the front right side which I assume is the play/HT bypass. Another toggle between the 2 towers. I think this is the stereo/mono switch. What has me stumped are the 2 toggle switches to the outside of the 6sn7 tube sockets. I have no idea what these are for or what position they should be in. Can anyone help me? I have an e-mail in to Mick. He forgot to send me and instrucion sheet. I will keep everyone informed as to the sound. My computer bit the dust, so I am just catching up on the thread. I know how you feel David. |
Slowhand,Congrats!!!!!!! finally,,, |
slowhand:
if your cortese is anything like my chardonnay, the switch in the right front is mute (toward the front is off, toward the back is on), the switch between the towers is ht/bypass (front - off, back - on), and the switch on each side of the 6SN7 is high/low gain. toward the back is low gain. toward the front is high gain i believe. and there's another gain knob on the back as well. congrats. |
Kgturner is correct. The switch layout on my Chenin is as described. HT bypass is between the towers, mute on/off front right side, switches closest to the 6SN7 tubes are high/low gain - left/right. |
Thanks guys,
Mick forgot to send and instruction sheet. Do the 6922's go in the front position and the E180's behind them, or do the E180's go in the front with the 6922's behind the E180's. They are both 9 hole pins. I would have guessed the 6922's go in the front, but the picture on the website looks like shorter tubes in the front which would be the E180's. I turned it on for about 10 seconds with the 6922's in the front and then shut it off, because I was not sure if this was correct. I did not play any music though. |
Slowhand,
You got it: 6922's in the front. Then sit back and enjoy!! |
.
Tom,
.
Congrats on finally getting your Cortese. Please do give us all a detailed report on what you are hearing after you get 200 hours or so on it.
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
Slipknot1,
I would have guessed the E180's in the front. The picture of the Cortese on Mick's website looks like the shortest tubes are in the front position which would be the E180's.
Tom |
Tom,
Does the Cortese have a phono stage (I can't seem to keep all the models straight)? The Chenin has a phono stage using the 6922's, which are in the front most position. Confusing as both tube sets have a 9 pin configuration.... |
FWIW, on my Grange the E180F tubes are in front followed by the Cca (6922) and as Slipknot points out the tubes get taller going towards the back. Perhaps yours is configured differently. Good luck. |
Mustang is absolutely correct on tube position for the Cortese. The 180 tubes are in front.
Mustang, I picked up the Lucinda Williams lp per your suggestion. Very good.
Also I thank you and Ecclectique for tube recommendations. Very helpful. Definite improvement. Great fun.
Mustang check out Amiee Mann if you get a chance.
Doc |
Doc,
My comments pertained only to the Grange not the Cortese. I have no experience with it.
Thanks for the tip but I already own "Lost in Space". If you like that check out the albums by Til Tuesday. She was the lead singer, bassist, and songwriter for most of the material. I have all of the albums and highly recommend them. Thank you. |
Tom.. the E180F's go in the front sockets. Putting the 6922's in the front followed by the E180F's in the "middle" of the preamp might destroy your preamp.
Cortese Tube Layout
.............6SN7..........6SN7.............
...............6922......6922...............
.................E180..E180................. |
Thanks guys for getting me straight on the setup of the tubes. I got them in last night. When I first played the Cortese last night I was kind of unimpressed. It sounded hard and brittle with no bass. I let it play overnight and it did seem to sound better this morning. My nephew came over today to hear it. He is a guitar player, and he was playing with the gain switches. I had the 2 toggle gain switches on the top a low gain. When I would adjust the gain knob in the back it seemed to make no difference in the sound. When we moved the top gains to high, and adjusted the gain knob on the back I could hear the differences. All of a sudden there was tons of body and slam to the music. It took on a whole new life. Now I can't turn it off! I am getting a slight ground loop hum on phono. I have a ground wire from the ground post on the pre to the ground post on the back of the tonearm plug. Any ideas? If I take the ground wire off I still have the same slight hum. It is not bad and cannot be heard if music is playing. I know this thing will continue to get much better over time. It is going to be a fun trip! |
I have a Cortese thats about 3 years old and I am thinking of doing the upgrade or ordering a new Cortese .
Has anyone upgraded their Cortese and could you explain the difference ?
Has anyone listened to a new and an older Cortese ?
How long is the wait for a new one? I may end up ordering a new Cortese and sell my existing one after .
Thanks,
Abill |
Hey Slowhand. How about a progress report. |
.
Yeah Tom,
.
How bout draggin yurself away from the tunes and let us all know how the Cortese is sounding.
.
Rgds,
Larry |
Any out there in Audigon land waiting for their Supratek? I ordered a Cabernet in January '04 from Mick, albeit with some custom tubes, but am stilling waiting for word of delivery. Has anyone been waiting 10 month's or more? |
