Power Cords Snake Oil ??

My point above is not at all combative.

It would be a real accomplishment in this high end field if a testbed created by one designer could become useful to other designers working on ideas - even radical ideas. It might even end the snake oil era, perish the thought.

Corona: "What string theory is asserting is that all revolves around resonance" - that's a cute analogy, but neither you nor anyone else has designed anything based upon employing the equations involved in string theory. (No, I'm not a physicist or EE, just normally endowed with common sense.) This is no knock on your cables (I haven't even bothered to see what company you represent, and whatever it is I assume I haven't heard your product anyway), it's just an observation that if electrical engineering principles were scientifically employed in the design of your cables, then they were the same textbook principles available to be employed by all cable designers. If you've paid more attention to resonance than some, that's great, but as you say you've been doing this for a decade, and I'll take it on faith that you didn't wake up one morning, read something about the emergence of string theory, and go back to the drawing board to radically redesign your cables. Quite the contrary to Flex's hope that some unification theory breakthrough - should it ever come and be verified - might "end the era of snake oil" in cable design, I view this claiming of string theory as a basis or validation for a method of designing and building a cable is just that: the selling of snake oil. Color me unimpressed, and also just that much more unlikely to ever want to check out your product, as I'm congenitally allergic to overweening hyperbole. If your cables sound great, then that'll be my loss, but it still wouldn't convince me that you were somehow operating on a completely different physical plane from all others toiling in the cable field.

Zaikesman, no I wasn't expecting a unification of all cable design based on string theory (aargh). Why is email so difficult?

The point of testbeds is that they can prove and DISPROVE ideas, and they lead in theory to an exchange of ideas. This is the way it would be done if high end ever entered the realm of science/engineering (!) (Maybe we could progress from a proliferation of diy/artisan cable designers and on to something like power supply redesign, for example.) Nah, its more fun to buy $2500 cables.

The issue here isn't string theory, by the way. It is resonance, and how much resonance has to do with cable response. I have my own strong opinions, and so do both Audioengr and Corona, but those two have data and I don't. That is where a testbed fits in.

Zaikesman,
Here is the equation for resonance
The nth harmonic has frequency fn = v/ln = nv/2L = nf1
You need to figure out how to apply it based on the physical property of the material.
It is not snake oil but rather how you derrive your product based on the basic equation. That's each manufacture's secret ( Assuming if they did design the cables themselves and not buying some finished cable and terminated them togather.)
Just look around you and you'll find at least one thing was designed based on the same theory. This not only apply to audio, it also applies to communication technology industries.

Z: "...I'm congenitally allergic to overweening hyperbole."

Alex, you are a treasure!

I haven't bothered to read all the posts, becuase if I recall there was a similar psot like this. But I will say Jetmek, if all you did was a quick A/B test I doubt I would notice either. It has been my experience that electronics ( especially power cables ) need to sit stationary, and have AC ran through them continously for about a week to reach a good performance. So did you do this first, before your blind tests?

I will agree that the money some of companies is asking for these cables is ridiculous. I don't think they are worth it, I think if you upgrade to a hospital grade plug, and a 12-10AWG cord you will be fine. You can do this for about $50, $15 in you live in China :) Of course I haven't tried everything out there, but I have tried a few.

just my 2 cents worth.....

Flex, here are some Corona quotes cut and pasted from above (with some minor editing applied by me for clarity):

"There is only one power cable that is truly different and commands the technology that astounds, but you won't go there because the answer sounds too radical."

"The design concepts we are using are really 'off the map'. However, since the recent advent of 'String Theory' as the dominant position in physics, what we are doing does not seem so 'out there' any more."

"Any of you Audiogoners that have not yet investigated 'String Theory', check it out on the 'net'; its implementation is what’s going to divide the past from the future."

"So what does 'String Theory' have to do with my audio system, is that your question? Here is a list of conventional electrical engineering precepts which are employed in almost all cable designs to the detriment of all audio systems. The following would not be supported by String Theory:

1. Building a cable without any consideration of the field that surrounds the conductor.

2. Designing a power cable as an isolated entity as if is has no bearing on the performance of the speaker, amp, etc.

3. Claiming that electrical and mechanical resonances are mutually exclusive phenomena.

4. Claiming inductance, capacitance, and resistance are the central issues in all cable design.

What String Theory is asserting: all revolves around resonance."

Flex, here's a quote from you: "The issue here isn't string theory".

While I happen to agree with that last assessment of yours, Corona, it seems to me, is pretty clearly attempting to imply some sort of linkage or support for his design concepts involving said theory, and I'm not buying it. And neither am I buying into his claims that string theory is now the "dominant position" in physics (not for anything involving practical work, it's not), that the theory is essentially "asserting" that "all revolves around resonance" (maybe, mabye not, but that's too simplistic a reduction - more of a new-agey mantra if you ask me - for general applicability here regardless), nor his blanket characterizations of the 'rules' he suggests all other cable designers are allegedly bound to and their shortcomings (or his corollary that string theory somehow contravenes these). The possible merits of Corona's company and cables aside, this approach strikes me as a sketchy marketing ploy at best, and quite likely disingenuous (meaning he knows better). But, I would really think it deserving of the term 'snake oil' only if they were merely repackaging OEM Belden or something, and that I am willing to take on faith is not the case.

Z -
I think we're in agreement :-)

S23Chang: I believe Nikola Tesla was the first string theorist when he said,” Resonance is the tune the universe is dancing to.”

"Snake oil"? With all this talk about string theory, corona's product (or at least his ideas) might better be described as a "can of worms".

Hey I got an idea. Why don't we forget about strings, cable, and maybe even circular things. And just listen to our music, and forget about what pc we are running. That is the point of this hobby, isn't it????

Somtimes I read these posts and I want to throw mine equipment out and go buy a Sony boom box. What was that Bob Harley said a few years ago? " You should be able to enjoy the music, no matter what quality your equipment is "

What do you say Jetmek?

Well, KT_88, what can I say. I threw out a question about pc's and got back dozens of opinions ( yours included )These opinions ,derived from everyday experience to way out there theories probably better left to the people that design equipment. Either way, I now have some knowledge and ideas that I didn't have a week ago.

You're absolutely right. We should just enjoy the music. I think that is exactly what most of us are doing. I suspect that since you posted your opinion on this forum and the fact that you're aware of A/GON tells me you certainly dont use a boombox for your music entertainment. Sure, at some point you started out with that boombox but along the way you wanted to improve your listening experience. Years ago my heathkits sounded good. Now thousands of dollars later my current equipment sounds good as well and if I happen to come across a pc that I feel contributes to that musical enjoyment,I'll buy it.

Has anyone listened to Corona's Sahuaro cables? I'm curious, is he onto something?

Hi Guys:
One of the many things I have discovered on my journey through audio: When you set out to push the envelope, sometimes the envelope pushes back.

Jetmek, I just bought a power cord from you and you told me you had two others of the same brand and you loved them. Have you had a change of heart?

Absolutely not and if you read thru the threads, you'll see that I have them hooked up and am using them. I'll keep them as well. For their looks, for their build quality.In the mean time I'll keep searching for a pc that allows me to hear a substantial difference in the presentation.In fact today I had the opportunity to try a Tara labs high dollar cord. No change that I could detect. This cord belongs to a friend and its been more than "burned in".

In the search for decent power cords (I've heard substantial differences), I've restricted myself to the under $200 U.S. cords (new or used or DIY), but I sure wouldn't be keeping any cord, or any piece of equipment, for that matter, for its "looks and build quality" if I couldn't hear the difference between it and something that was a quarter of the price or came stock with the equipment.

Right on, Hdm. Nice posts, Zaikes, but remember some Belden, like the 83000 series, is GREAT cable, at industrial prices. That's where the price/performance ratio is greatly in our favor. Antiresonant attributes are where my efforts lie in further improvements in PC design. Yet I continue to see marketing-driven pricing schemes unrelated to real materials and labor cost as a primary hindrance. These are 60Hz AC power cords, period. Even with the 2 1/2 hours labor it takes me to assemble one of my new anti-resonant designs, I can't see why a fair market can't exist for a manufacturer to sell direct under $200-$250....
Corona, you can go on and on about envelope-stretching or stringing dingleberries, but then choosing to name your PCs
semantically linked to a pedophile's 80's rock album's title strikes me not much in consonance with products of next-era R&D. Let's get real here. You want to sell PCs at high prices to the gearheads, naive, and hopeful on A'gon? Fine. Just please try to not splash too much goofy-science in your wake. It just further soils the landscape....
Phew. I didn't intend to jump on anyone when I hit the forums this bright and cold morning, but there it is. Sorry.
Happiest Holidays to all this week.

Subaruguru:
You said it takes you 2 and 1/2 hours to build a power cable that should sell at $250.
That comes out to $100 per hour with no dealer to take his share and no overhead, and you’re calling other people greedy!
Now let me guess, I bet you take some wire, put some insulation around it (call that resonance control) and attach it to a couple of connectors and declare it a power cord. That may work fine for power tools but it is not going to do much in terms of accelerated audio performance. We are not amateurs. We do not make a living by hiding behind words on a computer screen. We do in-house demonstrations, directly or through our dealers. We compete against the best of the best. With the introduction of our new designs, I can tell you with absolute assurance, we are light years ahead of the competition.
There are a number of people who are more than willing to slam a product without any understanding of the technology involved, have never experienced the performance and do not even know anyone who has! Yet these individuals are eager to express violent opposition based solely on their long accumulated assumptions.

Corona, welcome to the "reality chatting" ( since no tv screen here.) The concept is hard to understand for some of the folks here because they never design the cable themselves. Sure, it is always easier to attack someone and anyone can do that. However, it is not always easy to find the science behind it ( We don't get hit by the falling apple under the apple tree everyday to dicover gravity.)

Corona, your response is pure crap. You log onto a consumer website and claim a lot of preposterous physics - superconductors, string theory (what's next - astrophysics?) There is only one way, and there never will be any other way, to do physics theory, and that is by publication and peer review - put your results where other people can test them. Listening proves *absolutely nothing* about physics, except that you can be *hugely* misinterpreting your results.

Claiming a lot of unpublished, hidden, unscrutinizable, grandiose garp serves to take the audio field down in the eyes of every respectable audio scientist. It may serve your marketing purposes which seem to be just to get your name out there. If you want to advertize your power cords for what they are, do so, but leave physics out of it until/unless you offer proof.

"..slam a product without any understanding of the technology involved".. What technology have you offered? String theory? Superconductors? The word 'resonance' is not a technology.

Flex, if you can make a cable say like a $10,000 NBS black series IC, are you going to tell folks how you making it?
It can only be free if everyone else already knows how to do it.

The truth about patent protection is all BS. Anyone can tweak a bit from original design and call that their own discovery.

Stop attacking people as you should respect their own company secret. That is way a lot of company decide not to publish any white paper because of people like you.

If you really want to know then fork up the dough to buy one and get it over with it and enjoy/hate the product.

Ernie: No slam on Belden intended - just on anybody (not suggesting Corona or yourself here) who is making cables around OEM wire and then hiding that fact within some sleight-of-hand marketing scheme.

Speaking of which (I've read rumors about NBS around here...) S23chang, anybody can make a $10K IC (you just make an IC, and then charge $10K for it). But if I could actually *sell* a $10K IC, I would shut my mouth right there. And when NBS has advertised, this is exactly what they have done, as far as I can see: A glossy black page emblazoned with their logo, and zero product info or claims, other than maybe a lonely sentence fragment to the effect of being 'world's best' or somesuch. Maybe yes, maybe no, but whatever the case may be, the predictably gargantuan profit margin is courtesy of self-generated 'mystique' and the wisdom of P.T. Barnum. (Whether or not that approach is actually a better long-term business model than simply selling a great product at a fair price is another question, but it might work for a few in an overcrowded market.)

Flex:
In my 45 years of audio I have seen an endless stream of proofs or “White Papers” that had nothing to do with the performance of the product; almost all were based on educated hype. There is an old saying in audio: “If it tests good and sounds bad it’s bad; if it tests bad and sounds good it’s good.” The truth is if we won the Nobel Prize for Physics you would then be saying: “Physics theory has nothing to do with great sound”.
S 23 Chang:
It took a long time to develop this technology. As you have stated, explaining it without giving away the farm is a challenge. Another problem, the explanation keeps moving. As we learn more about how it works the new understanding it invalidates part of the old explanation, I am sure you are familiar with this part of the learning curve.

Corona: I think people basically *are* saying theoretical physics has nothing to do with great sound.

Give me a jingle the next time a Nobel Prize winner decides to go into the audiophile cable business...

Uh, I think Zaikesman just wrapped this thread up.

Zaikesman:
I think you missed the point.

>Corona says:
“If it tests good and sounds bad it’s bad"

In other words, you didn't know how to test what you were hearing

>Corona says:
"if it tests bad and sounds good it’s good.”

In other words, you didn't know how to test what you were hearing

>Corona says:
"The truth is if we won the Nobel Prize for Physics you would then be saying: “Physics theory has nothing to do with great sound”. "

If you won the Nobel Prize, you would have gone through exactly the process I outlined. You would have published your work and proved to the satisfaction of others the correlations between sound and physical phenomena.

Obviously there are engineering, physics, and psychoacoustic phenomena behind what we hear. However demonstrating that something sounds one way or another is no proof of underlying physics. Like the majority of pc makers, you can sell your products based on sound, but if you are going to claim physical reasons that stand on any merit, you are going to have to provide evidence. Handwaving at theoretical physics is specious logic.

On white papers, there are about 80 years of work in audio that is firmly grounded in published measurement and engineering theory.

Flex:
You are right there has been 80 years of "firmly published measurement and engineering theory";and look at the mess it has created.
Face it flex, you are a slave to the past. There are no words that will ever convince you of anything. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just the way you view the world.
I think you sometimes forget that is a forum for the exchange of ideas, demands of scientific proof are better served in another setting.

Look at the mess it has created.... like acoustics, speaker design, electronics, digital processing, recording, microphone design, networks, midi. I think I'll stay lost in the past if that's true.

A forum for the discussion of ideas. String theory, superconductors... on Audiogon ??

Corona, no one seriously expects you to offer scientific proof, least of all here. Reread Zaikesman's posts if you need to grasp the issue. Discussion, real discussion, is fine.

Flex:
Is the one you are referring to?
"I think people basically *are* saying theoretical physics has nothing to do with great sound". I am not sure if he believes this or is saying that others do?
We believe it has everything to do with great sound that is why are so intrigued with "String Theory" because it is saying what we have experienced in the lab; there are no isolated events, all electrical phenomenon are interrelated.We are presently focusing on the relationship
between impedance and resonance. It does sounds strange!

IMHO & in my limited experience, I found that MOST powercords on the market is pure, unadulterated Snake Oil!! This has been confirmed to me by various audiophile friends many of whom use inexpensive Chris VenHaus Flavour X power cords after having tried several other expensive power cords.
I know that my pre (especially) & my power amp are sensitive to power cords. Searching for a power cord that has no sonic signature of its own within a reasonable price has been a tough assignment for me. I cannot afford an Elrod or an Electraglide or a BMI or any such $1000+ power cord! I'm presently using the ESP Essence cord & I find that it doesn't degrade the sonics of my pre & power. This I can tell you confidently. Is it "improving" the sound? No it isn't! I feel that it has practically zero sonic signature of its own.
Any time I hear or read that a power improves the sound, I'm leary of the claim. I believe that power cords cannot improve the sound; they can only change the tone i.e. colour the sound. All those believing that power cords improve the sound are listening to some form of distortion or the other that they perceive as "improvement". During the novelty period, it sounds diff. from what they are used to & it is mistakenly perceived as an improvement. Extended & critical listening reveals the flaws in the power cord & you see it for sale on Audiogon!
Electronics & Electricity will always be based on Physics (aleast on this planet!) & so equipment in these 2 realms will always have to honour these physics laws. Any improvements will have to be measureable. I'm convinced that if it's not measureable then one hasn't made any improvements or lateral changes or one doesn't know how to measure.
The money you can spend to lay dedicated lines to your wall outlets & to clean up the electricity coming to your mains from the grid will go far, far more than any power cord can. A power cord cannot fix what is broken (i.e. cruddy electric power) because it is a passive device. If you have a problem with your power, fix it at the source - that big breaker box located in your garage/basement.
If the power is clean, an inexpensive DIY power cable (VenHaus or Jon Risch type) should do just fine.
In audio, 95% of the stuff is TOTAL trash! Shifting thru this c*** takes a life time!
IMHO. YMMV.

This attitude will guarantee stagnation.

Wow, my head is spinning!

I agree with Bombaywalla. Personally, I'd rather remain stagnant than pushing the metaphysical boundaries of power cord neurotica.

A more important question to push the boundaries on is why various components are immune to the colorations of power cords. That goes back to the question of power supply and transformer design raised earlier.

"When we compare what we know to what we don't know, we can truly say we know nothing",Albert Einstein.

"The more I know about physics the more I'm drawn to metaphysics." -- Albert Einstein

Corona is right on with his quote. The biggest problem I have with the measurement crowd is that science to too immature to know what it is measuring, much less to know how to measure it.

In many cases modern science is like dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants trying to proclaim their vast understanding, and vision.

We actually understand very little about electricity and what takes place within our humble equipment. We don't have to tools with which to measure, or the understanding of what we are measuring.

If two amps measure the same they should sound the same, since they don't sound the same, there is obviously something missing in our measuring system, or tool box!

It is not the fault of the gear that two similar amps sound different, or that two different PCs sound different. Don't blame the PC, blame the science, or the dwarf! If all else fails, blame the racoon.

Nrchy...Science is not quite as primitive as you suppose. Don't be snowed by this string theory bs.

In particular it is very simple to measure whether two amps produce identical outputs. Simply feed the same input (a real musical waveform if that turns you on) to both amps (with level adjusted for gain difference) and make a voltage measurement, or oscilloscope observation across the two outputs. The difference voltage in units of millivolts can be compared with the output voltage in volts and expressed in units of dB. This would not be a very useful measurement for an amp designer, but it would give a user an idea of how well two amps compare... for example an inexpensive model vs an expensive one, or a modified vs stock one. It would not tell you which amp was better, just if there was any difference large enough to be audible.

Claiming that science hasn't reached a point to reliable measure audio equipment is absurd. I really doubt you can find two amps that measure identically. That myth is from the anti-measurement crowd, usually people with an agenda to hype over-priced and under-performing audio equipment and accessories.

What no one will do however is take those measurements and claim how you will percieve them.

steve

I'll eat the mylar in my Martin-Logans when an article on the theoretical underpinnings of power cords appears in Science magazine. If the techonology of electro-magnetism wasn't already well understood we wouldn't be having this exchange over the internet.

To the people opposed to not making measurements:-

You are fooling yourselves if you are thinking that mankind has very understanding of electricity! In fact, we have a very vast understanding of this subject - more than you can imagine. I'm quite sure that you do not have much visibilty to this fact. Some of the best minds of Planet Earth have worked & are working on the subject of electricity & electronics. It's just that these people are not/do not want to be employed in the audio manuf &/or retail business. The manuf., retail & user community is as good as the people that comprise it. We do have a lot of kick-butt people in this field but there seems to be a very large mass of un-educated people. In my experience I have observed that the more educated the person is in this audio hobby/obsession field the simplier their systems are - they spend more money on this things that make a real diff such as dedicated circuits to their setup, clean power supply & even battery supply if possible, their electronics is rarely the highly advertised hi-end brands rather it is some esoteric make where the designer concentrated on making gear dedicated to the accurate repro of sound, their connections between systems are simple using un-hyped interconnects & power cords & I see them talk more about music software, the emotional impact of their repro sound on them.
I'm convinced that this does not come from running from pillar to post trying every power cord under the Sun! I think "Slappy" said it correctly right in the beginning of this thread - you can't crawl thru a 20 or 200 foot tunnel of cr** & then appear in a tuxedo expecting us to believe that you are clean! The final presentation might be appealing, but you are still covered!
Power off the grid to most homes in the USA is seriously flawed in that it bears a lot of noise that would ruin the impact that any hi-end stereo should have on its user. If that user will not fix this problem at the source i.e. fix the power source & will rather fall into the trap of using various hyped power cords as a solution has a SERIOUS issue with problem solving 101! I shudder to think what criteria this person uses to select his/her electronics!!
Some of the people here are convinced of this line of reasoning thru their experience or from logical thinking of problem solving. Others will learn but the hard way by spending their hard earned $ on hype & having their skeptism turn in cynicism & still others will never learn!! As they say, it takes all sorts.....
Do not get me wrong - I'm not against power cords! I'm against power cords that are hyped to us users which have no technical merit of solving the cruddy electricity problem. Any manuf or retailer who suggests buying his/her power cord without ensuring that the user's power supply is clean enough to take advantage of the power cord is leading the user astray. This will lead to more & more cyncism from us users & will kill our hobby gradually.

There is no little irony in one poster (Narchy) supporting Corona by attacking numbers/measurements, while Corona claims to rely on string theory which, is entirely based upon mathematics, and which always will be.

PS:if anyone wants a nicely written, easy to read overview of string theory try Brian Greene’s “The Elegant Universe”. It has a very well written overview of the state of physics leading up to string theory too.

Cheers,
I remain

We consider the power supply/power cable assembly as one unit. It is the most misunderstood and most important aspect of an audio system. We take measurements but not the kind you’re talking about. Here, sign wave analysis reveals partial insight to a problem that is very unique; you must make the map fit the territory not the reverse. Resonance interaction, field theory and field isolation all play a major roll in power conveyance and interactive symmetry. In other words, the pc must convey power with no lag time and match the power supply's resonance signature or disruption in flow energy will occur. This problem requires a break from traditional thinking to achieve the goal we all are looking for. Because power supplies are not standardized an array of alternative resonant signature designs must be utilized to match every application.

Corona...I have never heard of "sign wave analysis". Please explain.

Corona: FWIW, I am not, among other things (like being an engineer or scientifically trained), a 'measurements uber-alles' type who doesn't like to rely on his ears (not that I feel ears can't be fooled!). It would be a false sylogism to suggest that someone discounting your string theory inferences is by implication rejecting subjective auditioning, or is a 'slave' to design-by-numbers. I tend to believe that there are likely many aspects of audio design for which there may not be very informative quantitative measurements available, and that qualitative judgements ultimately must come down to the human ear. For the most part, I am open to the proposition that any piece of gear deserves to be judged by listening to it, but there is simply too much gear in this world, and one of the factors I employ in the winnowing-out process is to preemtively reject gear I feel is being marketed based on some sort of specious claim, such as the fast'n'loose bandying about of pseudo-science, or the deceptive distortion/excessive extrapolation of true science.

So though I feel I am reasonably open-minded without being gullible, I do want my gear designed by scientifically competent engineers, and I likewise want its performance attributes explained in some sort of plausible scientific context. There may be some merit to your claims regarding 'symmetrical resonance' between PC's and PS's or whatever, I don't know. All I know (OK, think, but I'm sticking to it - at least until you come up with a more coherent argument than, essentially, 'you know too little to disprove me') is that even if those claims were supportable, they would still have nothing to do with sub-sub-atomic theory and nothing to do with field unification, as three of the forces involved (strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, gravity) haven't any bearing on electromagnetic phenomena observable or manipulable on a human scale within the present state of our universe, to the best of my knowledge. I suppose if one wanted to design a cable exclusively for use at the moment of the Big Bang, then a working knowledge of a valid unification theory might come in handy. (That was a joke.) Until then, I'm taking the eminently non-revolutionary position that you're working within the same parameters of physical possibility as any other cable designer, but that you enjoy pretending otherwise, dubious as I personally am about that plan's marketing efficaciousness.

Sign wave analysis is heavy stuff and not for amateurs.

Here is
a picture of my buddy and I in my audio signal analyzer.
I runs along under our whole neighborhood. Here is a shot of us moving in the magnets
and a
view from my Lear Jet looking down. The signal analyzer is the circle.

We run audio signals at each other at high volume. Here is a read out of an audio signal event when we ran Hendrix out of phase. And the nuclear core near meltdown

My proud family watches in excitment.

Based on extensive research I've gone back to zip-cord.

Sincerely
I remain,

Clueless, I always wondered what they were doing out there behind the fences in Aurora. Wow, it's the world's largest power cord research facility!

Clueless...Nice toys! Don't you think that zip cord is overkill. I suggest bell wire.