Power Cords Snake Oil ??

Kt 88:
The lab amp, which we built, sits on a 1 ½” thick solid walnut plinth. Its transformer is separated from the electronics; the rectifier bridge is a soft recovery design. We spent 6 months developing the emitters made from resistive copper wire rather than nichrome; the diameter and length were tuned to the amp’s performance. To our knowledge this had never been done before. We recently discovered that YBA’s top of the line $35,000 amp has the emitters removed completely from their transistor design which is even better. Tube designs don’t use emitters but they have to deal with output transformer problems. We used Hovland’s best film and foil capacitors and Vishay’s best resistors. The transformer and power supply were wired with very heavy gage solid core with an isolated symmetrical configuration; the transformer temperature is controlled by constant convection flow. We have compared this amp with CJ’s and many others; bottom line: there is no comparison. CJ will probably tell you if they built an amp like that it would cost a fortune. We have no plans to sell this amp but 6 years ago when we built it the projected price was about $6500; in today’s market it would be a bit more.

Kt 88:
Forgot to mention the amp. is 200/200 watts per channel

Hi all,

Although I have never posted on the forums, I am a veteran of the Audiogon site, having bought and sold several pieces of mid to hi end equipment over the years. I'm also a member of the Audiophile Society in town, and I get to CES every year since 2000. (I say all of that as a point of reference only .) I happen to own Sahuaro Snake Oil, uh, I mean Cables :) in my system, which includes: KR Antares Amp, Joule Electra LA150 preamp, Richard Kern-modified Sony 777-SACD, and a Kuzma Stabi TT, all running through BPT 3.5 Sig. line conditioning (except amp). I haven't tried everything, but I have tried Cardas, JPS, Tice, Nordost etc ....
and for me, there is NOTHING that compares to the resolution, clarity, detail, and pure emotional involvement of my system with this cabling. It's not close.. I have personally been at CES for several "AB" tests between Sahuaro and the "hot cabling du jour", with results being so lopsided that there wasn't even any lively discussion involved.. While I appreciate the apprehension expressed here, it really does come down to the "music" ...
All I can say is try out the Prethrilla or Ampthilla - you get 30 days to check it out. What's there to lose? Call or email Lon at audiolon.com - he can help you. (I am NOT affiliated with anyone btw, but Lon is a pal) Also, there are other opinions at http://hometheatertalk.com/httalk/viewtopic.php?t=3541&highlight=sahuaro from John Beavers, and at audioasylum, there's plenty of discussion also...

FWIW
Alan (not to be confused with Alan Kafton, who is an aquaintance of mine ...:)

I’ve followed this thread for awhile but hesitated to join in. It almost read like a private email exchange of ideas due to the character of the responses.

Some of what every member has posted seems factual (at least part of it, based on my experience). I don’t understand the string theory bit, but that last post by Corona makes sense. I can see how some of these ideas put into practice could result in a significantly better sounding amp.

As for his comments about power cords and his speakers, I have no experience to go by. I do know that the type and design of power cords plugged into my Soundlabs (they pull one eighth of one watt) make a huge difference. It should not, but every person who sits listening while I pull one and replace with another always laughs in disbelief.

I try different cables when people I respect tell me they’re worth listening to. That’s how I found most of the equipment in my system.

I know nothing about the cable Corona is talking about and even less about the theory describing why it works. I do know that most cable sounds different from each other and some is a great deal better than another.

At one time in my audio career I refused to believe that any power cord could matter. To me, this was like kids putting giant mufflers and four inch outlets at the end of their one inch exhaust system. How the heck could it help after all that small pipe?

In spite of it seeming ridiculous, power cords make a big difference. The amount of difference depends on the equipment, quality of the system, the cable design, the quality of your in wall wiring and the service provider. It’s no wonder this is the most hotly debated topic. It’s unlikely any two of us have identical situations to draw results from.

My decision is as always. I test by listening and deciding if the amount of money involved is worth making the change. Not very scientific, but the music always benefits doing it this way.

Albert, I think your method of choice is plenty scientific, or at least as scientific as choosing a cord based solely on 'scientific' notions of what 'should' be the case without listening. And the fact is, enjoyment is enjoyment, whether we can 'prove' we hear a difference or whether we can only *say we think* we hear a difference.

I have no doubt that if Corona's cables are physically unique in *any* way compared to all other cables, then they may - even probably will - sound different from all other cables to a greater or lesser degree. I say this about *any* brand of cable, or indeed any piece of audio gear period. But I realize that even were I to subjectively come to the conclusion after auditioning that Corona's cables were the best-sounding (to me) cables in the world, that fact *still wouldn't* validate his claims about *why* they might be the best. And I *still wouldn't* place any credence, only discredit, in his (non-specific at best, deviously misleading at worst, and completely ascientific any way you look at it) invoking of untestable String Theory to explain the differences.

Tonight I went to a formal salsa dance. I was wearing a suit that was ten years old, since I've lost 25 lbs. Like the Men's Wearhouse TV commercial says, "You're going to like the way you look". Wool jacket and spiffy pants, deerskin shoes w/ leather soles. The first band was more jazzy/mambo; softer in sound. I thought my system could do a good job at conveying the illusion of what was being played. Then Sammy De León's band went on stage--Ouch! the entire horn section is composed of young Anglo guys who are incredible jazz performers (sax, trombone, two trumpets). Sammy is THE best modern timbales player--period. There is NO way any system can convey THAT. By the end I was dancing with a HOT mami in her early twenties, with native American indian features, golden brown skin and a good set of hooters. I am 41 years old and let me tell you, audiophools...THE WORLD CHANGED.

Albert, I've taken your advice to heart.

With psychic power and primal intensity,

Zaikesman, "untestable String Theory"? What are you referring to? You can look at a simple instrument as guitar and you know why all 6 strings sound different. That's the simplest test on string theory. Have that in mind, you can then apply to a more advanced electric guitar. Have that in mind, wire a 22 ga. solid core hookup wire vs a 24 ga. stranded hookup wire on your CD player output, if you can't hear the difference in your system then maybe your system is not neccessary an ideal system to have the true sound revealed.

Agreed.

All scientific theory aside, maybe Corona will allow you or I to listen and determine if they work in our situation.

Zaikesman:
Z, I respect your input but you’ve got your needle stuck in the same old groove. Think about this: We are generating an electromagnetic null down the center of the power cable, the field effect of the two conductors in opposition are then neutralized, you now have two polarities in electromagnetic isolation. This whole movement is created by a manipulation of field resonance; this is “String Theory”. Do we have enough proof to satisfy the scientific community? No. We*DO* have the technology to create a product that works like nothing has before. We are advancing the state of the art. We are *NOT* in search of a Nobel Prize. Our business is producing cable products that yield extraordinary results but somehow this is not good enough, you are more concerned about the bottle than you are about its contents. Now if you can supply us with a better explanation I would like to hear it. Or, I think, you once said it would be better if we gave no explanation; for you that might be acceptable but for many others that just would not do.

S23chang. I’ve been following this thread and I believe Zakes‘ problem began with Corona’s post on 12-14-03.

Any of you Audiogoners that not yet investigated “String Theory” check it out on the “net”; its implementation is what’s going to divide the past from the future.

If I’m wrong, no doubt he will correct me. By the way, I think Zakes got a pretty nice system. I think you two are just on different topics.

If it’s any consolation, I’ve been confused by this thread for several days.

Corona...Which way does the grain run in the "1 ½” thick solid walnut plinth" under your amplifier? Is it black walnut or English walnut? Did it come from a branch growing North/South or East West? (Magnetic field effects). What kind of varnish do you have on it? Was the tree organicly grown? What kinds of birds had nests in the tree? Did you ever fall out of the tree and hit your head?

Interesting to see the 4 day breather we all took. 2003 took some getting over for me, too....
Corona, you even hyperbolized my words back on 12/21 too!
My "statement" Prelude and Fugue PCs take 2+ hrs to build, using all-Teflon insulations and a highly-refined antiresonant, high-density, nonmagnetic, heat-sinking "bath". Blah, blah, blah. Of course the core conductors are "OEM". Do you think ANYBODY making audiophile PCs casts and extrudes their own copper/silver wire? Do you? I use the best materials available; after 2+ hrs assembly (trying to match my Subaru-mechanic nomen's $60/hr labor rate) I've got about a $160-170 CGS ea in these, and will sell direct at $160-185! Delete minor marketing expenses, tools, and especially customer service time consulting/marketing I'm probably making about $10/hr on my $39 and $55 PC Kits, and maybe could make $20-30/hr if I'm lucky on these Prelude & Fugue ones. Helluva great business model, eh? Crump and other folks have suggested that my prices have to be much higher to make a go of it. I know this already; consequently my activity sits at the hobbyist/DIY and myth-busting high-value level. Nevertheless, I contend that there's no earthly reason why high-performance PCs need cost more than $250. We can be sure that if our tiny market was considered attractive there'd be mass-produced ultra-low dielectric-involvement, anti-rez PCs coming out of China for under $100 by now.
Many of us hear differences with varying PCs depending upon specific system criteria, as listed by other posters. Fine.
If this weren't true I wouldn't be involved either, believe me. But I contend that exotically-priced, usually- concommitantly-gushingly-unexplainable performance aspects of individual PCs are accidentally consequent to our roulette of system matching and idiosyncratic placement. And what does "better" mean? Many of my A'gon customers and buddies have resold their expensive PCs after installing mine. Others (fortunately a minority) claim that spending more results in
differences (aka "improvements") they value. So be it. By varying quantity and types of conductors and insulations, geometry and resonant behaviour one can "tune" these snakes.
This is already quite a mature, "old-hat" culture for true
audio-bandwidth cabling for use with mic, interconnect and speaker applications. To claim unexplainably-extraordinary performance for a relatively simpler 60Hz AC application across the board (most or all power supplies) smarts of snake-oil marketing in a quasi-virgin submarket. Many of you have expressed this already, and more cogently than I have....
Being a pianist, and having just set up a decent home-recording adjunct to my beloved Steinway B, I have to admit that subtle microphone placement was FAR more critical to obtaining great recordings than subtle changes in cabling.
The (Michael) Grace Class A mic preamp runs off its own wall-wart, and very inexpensive, yet universally-accepted Canare starquad mic cables link the Earthworks omnis....
Years ago I struggled with speaker-placement and sidewalls-treatment to arrive at proper room "loading".... Both these exercises further confirm to me that acoustic/electric transducer performance is still the overwhelming aspect that "leverages" excellent performance. Yes, I'm astounded by the music-making of my EMC-1, the Aleph P and monos, the SPM transparency and speed, and even the improved coherence and spatial holography provided by my inexpensive PCs, but I try not to get lost in these RELATIVELY minor details....
I've designed a few speaker systems, so understand the basics of passive crossovers, drivers' Thiele-Small, box-loading, radiatiioon patterns, etc. I find it almost preposterous that a single-driver dynamic loudspeaker performs significantly better only with a specific power cord linking its amplifier. I suppose the claim is based upon the purity of a crossoverless (capacitorless) design.
Yet MANY multi-driver loudspeakers use a natural acoustic rolloff of their midrange driver, and some without a high-pass either, thus running "naked" up top as well. The VA Parsifal Encores share this design, with resultant crosses at wide 150/5500Hz points. believe me, they sound extraordinarily good with my Alephs pushing them with nelson Pass' original $8 14AWG PCs, and somewhat better with my PCs. To state that a loudspeaker won't perform to design level without a specific PC is in my mind insulting to all those who've sweated countless hours designing and voicing excellent transducers. In a related vein, would B&K et al specify a SPECIFIC PC to provide phantom power to their $4000 microphones? Methinks not, and I doubt they worry much about performance compromises either. Happy and Healthier New Years to all. Ern

1) The most relevant thing I can say about power cords, I suppose, is that my wife and I can hear differences in double blind tests, but the interconnects must all be up to snuff and all the cords plugged in correctly vis-a-vis their polarity orientation.
2) The only light I can shed on why "string theory" matters to cable design is, to summarize string theory.
String theory is a theory for a unified description of the fundamental particles and four fundamental forces in nature, which includes gravity. Now, I think, that since it would relate how the two nuclear forces, and the metallurgy/chemistry of a cord effects its electrical properties and how they, themselves, are effected by its vibration, i.e. the cord's gravitational responses (environmental and otherwise), a cable designer could, in theory--if he now knew all the mathematics, etc. of the different forces' interactions--finally design a cord which is wholly without "guesswork", and close to perfection.
This suggests particle physicists make good cable designers, I suppose.
It further suggests that its many of today's "white papers" that are the snake oil, (but not the cords, they work) because any "white paper" actually accounting for these quantum-level type "mechanisms" which operate in cables and cords would be so technically scientific us non-physicists wouldn't fullly understand it.
Does this mean we shouldn't believe what we can understand?
Why not? We believe in what we can't. It's called faith.
Happy New Year.

Albert: Maybe Corona will take you up on the audition offer, but I already stated previously that I am not interested, as a rule, in checking out products which IMO are marketed using specious claims. And oh, yeah, my system's alright I guess, but I don't know that even one at the exalted level of your own is up to testing whatever it is that S23chang is talking about (and I play the guitar... ;^)

Actually Chang, if you want to extend String Theory to guitar playing, there's an example of what we might call "Cord Theory": Albert Collins, the great, late Texas blues stringslinger, always got a distinctly unique guitar tone that no one else gets. I've read many items speculating as to why this was so, ranging from his idiosyncratic unconventional-open-tuning-plus-capo instrument set-up, to his Telecaster-fitted-with-Gibson-humbuckers axe, to his pick-less thumb-and-forefinger pluck-slap right-hand technique, and all of this undoubtedly does have something to do with his personalized tone. But some time after I saw him in concert at DC's famed (but now-history) Cellar Door in about '82, I realized what his real secret was. He used a custom-made, 100ft. long cord so that he could perform his trademark walk-out-of-the-club-and-keep-right-on-playing-out-in-the-street showmanship routine, which he began doing way back in the day years before cordless radio instrument/amp-connection systems were available. But he kept on using that cord even after they were, and used it in the studio too. One day after seeing that show, I happened to be playing somewhere away from my usual rig and had to plug in using something like a 30ft. cord, the longest normally sold. Lo and behold, I heard a faint trace of Albert's trademark tonality coming through - it was presumably the cord's extra capacitance vs. the common 10ft. or 15ft. cords at work.

Anyway, as I understand it (meaning in no way technically), "String Theory" is a grand, entirely mathematical, theoretical physics construct designed to possibly provide a 'unifying' framework for connecting the four more-or-less-observable fundamental types of force at work in the universe, namely gravity, electromagnetism, weak nuclear force, and strong nuclear force. I think the math is supposed to work out to imply that matter-energy actually consists of infinitesimally tiny elemental units of existence described as being 'strings' which manifest as the various types of more-or-less-observable members of the 'particle zoo' through their different 'resonant' states, and which constitute the 'fabric' of space-time within 12 or so 'looped' dimensions. And this math, if correct, is supposed to apply in all instances and conditions right back to the moment of the Big Bang, unlike the equations of Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, etc. Or something like that. The theory may never be confirmable through scientifically testable means. But regardless of whether or not these 'strings' actually exist, they (as of now) have nothing directly observable/dectectable to do with our everyday world of guitar strings, power chords, or power cords.

Zaikesman, are you saying we audiophiles are being strung along? :^)

If so, perhaps a better name for Corona’s new cords would be “Silly String.” I’m about half serious, it would disarm most people with a laugh and maybe drop their defenses long enough to give them a listen.

Albert: That's why you are a better audiophile than I. :-)

I think... still think.. one of the most important non-Corona-related points on this thread is as follows:

Most systems respond to power cords, often far too much so -

The original poster of this thread, long forgotten, stated that power cords did not produce audible differences in his system.

Audioengr stated that from his experience, correct design or modification of power supplies greatly reduces power cord colorations.

If mods of this sort can be demonstrated and quantized, it should lead to next generation equipment with less performance variability. The best way to defeat the need for expensive cables is to define conditions where they become unnecessary.

Any alternative thoughts on this?

Flex, did you go dancing, too?

"Audioengr stated that from his experience, correct design or modification of power supplies greatly reduces power cord colorations"

I think that most people who examine the SimAudio P-5 power supply would consider it a state of the art piece, housed within it's own chassis, connected to the line stage itself by a balanced cable. And yet, as well designed as this pre-amp is, when I replaced the stock power cord with a Sahuaro Ampthrilla, the change in sonics, soundstage depth and width, and overall tonal details, all increased when the Sahuaro power cord was put on, and decreased when the stock cord went back on. Don't know about other brands, but from repeated use with various components, Sahuaro ain't no snake oil :) Of course it could all be in my head, but you know what, it still gives me the same results everytime so...if it takes buying some snake oil to make the magic happen, yabba dabba do :)

JB, be sure to keep track of the distinction between a marketing angle that impresses as 'snake oil', and the entirely separate issue of whether the product itself might be described as such.

In my own system, when I got my Levinson 380S preamp - which is not entirely friendly to aftermarket PC's due to its requirement for a right-angle IEC plug, connected on the unit's underside - I asked some dealers who handled the line whether in their experience the piece responded to upgraded PC's. Several sources opined that the internal power supply was so good that no improvement would be heard, and not to worry about a PC change. I wondered if this was a position taken as much out of convenience as of conviction or experimentation, so I persisted until I got another dealer to admit that, yes, it could make a small but worthwhile improvement, but since telling a customer so just created a dissatisfaction that wasn't easily addressed, the other story prevailed. (In fact, the story I heard from all the others was so consistent that I began to suspect that maybe ML reps had hipped them to it as a method of deflecting a predictable objection.) So I decided to prop up my 380S on top of some temporary improvised supports which would allow a straight-plugged cord room to exit without excessive bending and listen for myself. Sure enough, just as I've found with all my other gear, a better cord did indeed make a difference, though in this case the improvement was definitely toward the lesser end of the scale. I think better-designed power supplies can help avoid excessively bad effects from using stock PC's, but I'm not sure it's possible in electronic gear to design-out upgrade-PC benefits completely.

Zaikesman:
The central issues are:
1. Is resonance the fundamental essence or energy of the universe?
2. Does the alteration of resonance create a change in energy?
After many years of testing we came to the conclusion the answer is “yes” to both questions.
Thereafter we discovered that “String Theory” encompassed the same ideas.

Audio Application:
All electromagnetic phenomenons are based on resonance; change resonance and energy is transformed.

The units of energy (Joule) are Kg-m x m per second x second, where kg is mass, m is distance, and seconds are unit of time. Thus, the (only) factors that can be involved in changing energy (decreasing or increasing it) are mass, distance and time. Since resonance (cycles per second) is not a term in the expression for energy, energy must be independent from resonance. Anyone agree or disagree?

Ok, let's get simple here and assume that resonance control is the next big thing, and that part of it involves the total length (organ pipe) primary resonance. How do you individually tune out this resonance for EACH different length of PC? Are you going to use a different construction according to the length of PC ordered, or vary the thickness/length ratio to arrive at a preferred (set of) null(s)? Just a thought. Maybe with 45 secret ingredients there's a recipe for building each different length of cable? Wow. And is the design goal to completely neutralize PC involvement, mimicking a zero-length PC? If not, then are we to assume that your PC somehow magically IMPROVES upon no PC? How? By "unvibrating" or "counter-vibrating" the universe?...or at least the AC presented at a duplex outlet? Phew. Hope it's not just spectral tilt, lumpiness, top-octave rolling or weird phasiness effects like so many others. Tell us HOW it sounds "different", and more importantly, why that's better, if you could. And please, why it should cost more than $250....
My product-evolution direction has combined an antiresonance construction (certainly rudimentary compared to string theory!) using among previous aspects a huge non-magnetic, compact heat-sinking "bath" that simply reduces the need (perceived or real) for huge conductors, as subtle temperature-rise is believed to be detrimental to audio performance. I posited these anri-rez arguments to a guitar and piezo-pickup manufacturer friend of mine. He laughed, recounting stories about some of the string-makers tricks, including playing with cryo years back (didn't work). I'm going to give him a couple of my PCs to try on his products, knowing full well the corporate heart is behind getting DSPs built into pickups so that a guitar-player can simply push a button and mimic ANY guitar string or manufacturer/model sound at will. We laughed that it could be done for loudspeakers, too. Imagine buying a "universal" speaker that you could punch in spectral and phase info into to choose among a bunch of favorites? Anathema to us 'philes, but believe me that's the direction even in upscale pro-music audio....

Corona: Those words you addressed to me in your last post impress me as being completely devoid of meaning, but if you feel the need to expound further, please address the whole forum, so I don't feel obligated to respond personally if I perceive you the same way again.

Well, here's an article on the subject that might be of interest..

http://www.vansevers.com/pdffiles/why_do_things.pdf

I can’t spend much time with this answer we are preparing for demonstration at T.H.E. SHOW in Las Vegas.
Geoffait:
With all due respect your post is the horns of the problem. Resonance *IS* energy and when it is changed the manifestation becomes altered. “Resonance is the tune the universe is dancing to”. ….Nikola Tesla
Subaruguru:
We have friends that make and sell amplifiers; the time involved in construction is about the same as one of our power cables. Our top of the line model takes about a week to construct.

I'd like to know what does it matter if the PC is "resonating". How many dB down is any aberation of the 60Hz wave?. A bit of rectification and filtering should cure that.

Is there at least a theory to explain that relationship?

steve

Steve:
Great question! We spent years on that one. There is a conflict between the 60HZ and the mechanical resonance of the conductor, this creates the problem. Rectification and filtering will not solve it. The solution is proprietary but we can discuss the problem in greater depth when I get back from Vegas.

"...conflict between the 60Hz and the fundamental mechanical resonance of the conductor."? C'mon....

Boy did you open a big can of worms.

I have found that there are some circumstances that does make it harder to hear the differences in power cords, the main one being that the better the interconnects and speaker cords are the more of the subtle detail changes you'll hear from power cords. I always recommend that the i/c's and speaker wire be brought into high form before spending money on power cords.

I apparently have a system component list that does a very good job of displaying differences because I certainly get customers spending a lot of time listening to just the difference a power cord makes. It is never a question of is the difference there, only is it worth the extra money. There are many pricey power cords that to me cause detrimental effects to the character of the sound so perhaps you have a couple of problems. You may need better interconnects and speaker wire, and you may not have some of the best recognized power cords.

I sold over 30 $1500 Kaptovators in one year, all with a money back guarantee, I never took one back except where they wanted to trade it toward a $3500 Aluminata.

There are simply too many reviewers working for mags that base their philosophy on only showcasing worthwhile (read good value) products that swear by power cords. I personally say that when your system is in fine synergy there is no other upgrade that offers better performance to dollars spent ratio. Because you can't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

By the way, when Joe at JPS first suggested I try his $1500 power cord my response was to say get the #%^ out of here! There was no way I could justify that kind of money. I tried one on a Belles 150-A hotrod and sat there with my jaw hanging open. I then showed it to a customer buying the 150-A and he bought one!

Over 30 $1,500 PC's in a year? Power cords been berry berry good to you... :-)

Absolute snake oil. There is nothing in this world short of making it out of platinum that could possibly justify an IEC cable costing $1500 or more. Or any cable, for that matter. If you have money to throw away on such things, hats off to you. As long as you're happy.

Personally, I'd rather apply that money to the acoustics in my listening room (one of the most overlooked, but 'hearable' tweaks you will ever apply), or more media.

The notion that you can 'hear' an AC cable flys in the face of common sense. There have been too many failed 'blind' tests, convincing test data (please don't tell me your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment!) and not to mention the laws of physics . Those reasons alone should be enough to explain away any desire to purchase this stuff. Couple that with the complete lack of eveidence supplied by the manufacturers (if they actually DO manufacture their own cable. Most DO NOT!) to back up their claims and there you have a good old fashined bottle of Doctor Bob's cure-all tonic!

Ok guys, go ahead and shoot me ;) Just expressing my opinion (which is based upon my education, background and some reasonable research into the subject, not on rituals involving chicken blood or anything like that.)

Loony, you need to go listen for yourself. I would have never thought a power cord could make a sonic difference, but it does. Maybe you should read some of Mike VansEvers papers on the subject? I do agree that the pricing on some of this stuff is insane.

I do try to keep an open mind. Truly, there are any number of phenomena on this Earth that science cannot explain, I just don't believe that basic electron theory is one of them. That said, I have 'auditioned', for lack of a better word, a number of cables of various uses and price points, to no avail. I heard nothing that would make me want to open my wallet.

I don't completely discount the possibility that cabling in the signal chain, or even an AC supply cable can make a sonic difference, whether for better or worse. The caveat is: there MUST be a measurable difference in electrical parameters to explain it, else we're searching for bigfoot or the loch ness monster(they might exist, there's just no proof.)

Otherwise, I stand by my (outspoken?) opinion. At least we agree on outrageous prices!

Loony, although I agree with your assessment that the power cord issue sometimes resembles the hysteria over UFOs or blood-weeping statues, many on these forums swear that they hear a difference. My experience has been that, in comparison to badly made stock cords, these boutique cords do make a small but significant difference on the sound I get from my components.

The instalation of dedicated lines made the biggest difference by far on the sound I am hearing. This was, for me, night and day. After auditioning power cords in the range of $59 to $1200 over the past 2 years, I have been unable to detect much difference except in comparison to the stock cords. A well made cord using good workmanship and solidly built wire can be found in the $100-$200 range (in some cases) even less. Better built connectors do add to the cost of making PCs and in some cases are worth it.

It's been my experience that every time I have purchased better built and designed gear than what I previously owned the sound did indeed improve. Also, like you mentioned, room treatments were a major step in the search for better sound.

There is no point of changing anyone's mind if they swear by the mega-bucks models. It's their money and God bless them. There are a handfull of manufacturers that will actually tell you in print what are the materials and techniques used in building their cables. The majority though, provide you with science fiction hyperbole adorned with adjectives usually reserved for cuisine books and celebrity-named perfume.

Hoping myself to reap the financial benefits of audio makebelieve, I have applied for a patent for a new PC to be named, “La Fata Morgana.” I am almost finished composing the advertizing copy and the wire will be provided by a Spanish company by the name of, “El depósito de casa.” I will use a scantily clad, redhaired nymphet to adorn the jacket and, at this time, plan on an “introductory” price of $12,000/per meter. It will be manufactured to interface with all electrical gear and also may be inflated (or blown) and taken to bed. (Buy more than one and fulfill all your fantasies.)

You guys just couldnt lead a sleeping dog lie could you?
Another can of worms is getting peeled open. :)

You're right, Loonytunz. If you can't hear the difference between different power cords, no one else can either. Anyone who says he can is delusional or terminally stupid. You are, after all, the ultimate authority on what each of us is capable of hearing. :-)

LT - You said: "please don't tell me your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment!"

Umm...I've gotta tell you: Your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment. (So is mine and everyone else's whose hearing is reasonably intact.) In certain, important ways, that is. Think about it a bit - you already know what I'm talking about.

Your post seems to imply that you have never heard any differences between any wires at any position in a system. Well, consider yourself lucky or cursed, but you are psychologically predisposed not to, and your experience can't disprove what might be true for others. (Oh, and there are measureable differences among cables. And unlike some other kinds of powerline tweaks, some pretty plausible theoretical points can be made for why aftermarket powercords could make a positive difference.)

But I won't argue with you on the price vs. value issue, except to say that it is not unique to the cable segment of the high end.

For the record, I certainly stated that cables possessing variations in electrical measurement could sound different from one another. I'm also no more predisposed to psychological bias than someone who just spent a bundle on a cable and expects or anticipates an improvement in their system. Who would spend the money hoping NOT to hear an improvement? Additionally, I attempted to speak for no one else here. What others hear or don't hear is their own business; just sharing an opinion.

P.S. This thread has been civil so far, but this topic often degrades quickly into 'you're an idiot', 'you're deaf', or 'your system sucks', etc, so let's just agree to disagree and stuff all those nasty little worms back into the can.

scantily clad, redhaired nymphet

What? Not Viggen? He will be crushed (ah, or are you actually reffering to Viggen?).

Anyway, everyone knows canned worms aren't the best. If you like canned worms you must have atrophied taste buds.
If you must store worms, please use a proper glass container. Canned worms have a metallic flavor, much like solid state gear. semi-colon close parentheses

KP

If I know Viggen, he probably found something new and exciting to put in his system that has him, "dancin' on the table with a cloth on his head..."

Why do you guys pick on Ed? He has a lot more wisdom for audio than others I have read.

If for any reason he is into things which might be construed as being a little unorhodox than please excuse my ignorance,but as far as I know he is not using sand shells as tweeking tools.

I cannot picture him dancing on tables tighly clad in some weird outfit! I think your imaginations or sexual fantasy's are getting the best of you.

Regards!

Ed or Edna? Ah, Ed Wood is alive an well, and he is Viggen!

Ah, if only he had used the shells as tweaking tools, and not as garments in a bizarre version of the dance of the seven veils.

How quickly we forget the pebble encrusted strip tease, and the cottage industry that it spawned...

Hey, the Pebbles thread was deleted...
booo! hisss!

Musta pissed off a Sacred Piñata.

KP

Panny,
I like Viggen as a fellow audiophile. You didn't understand the post. Perhaps Viggen can jump into this thread and explain the "dancin' on the Table..." thing.

Well, you missed the Pebbles post, which explained it all.

It had some... disturbing images presented to the mind's eye.

(To clarify, there was much tongue in cheek humor involved, and it has carried over to other posts. Whose tongue and whose cheek is yet to be determined, pending DNA samples.)

VVrinc, Marco, they were all there, I swear. They were. And a little fluffy dog.

KP

PS:I also share the view that Viggen is one of the sharper fellows around here; he's also a very good sport.

KP

Yo Larry, thanks for covering my behind. Lord knows I need it since KP can't stop looking at it = X.

I remember when I first hopped onto Audiogon, I discovered lots of tidbits that improved my system immensely. And, one of these tweaks got me dance on my table with joy. Unfortunately, Sherod was there to wintess this, and he has not let me forget it since = P.

You're a great guy,Viggen.Because of you, I have many times put a cloth on my head and danced a jig on the table. What better way to get excited about this hobby!Power cords snake oil? No way! Now if Gunbei,Viggen and Marco could do a dance on the table routine and provide photos, then we fellow audiophiles can see who "real" audiophiles are.And remember,you're never too old to express your elations about this hobby by "dancin' a jig on the table".

Hey, real men don't dance jigs!
Everyone knows that.
Real men grunt and fart...only...or maybe grow up to become Attorney General.

Disclaimer:
My wife will, under oath, swear that I was nowhere near the “peebles” thread and was peacefully sitting by her side watching an episode of the “The Iron Chef” while all the shenanigans were taking place. From what she read in the recent Enquirer, a certain, Sir K. Piglet, was the ringleader of the proceedings and is now being sought by Count Viggen's seconds for some good ol’ Brooklyn-bone-breaking. Word is that a duel is imminent.
I fervently pray that the two gentlemen in question will embrace in the spirit of prudence and pulchritude, and settle their differences where “real men” solve their problems...the YMCA.

Pace, pace, mio Dio.

LT: I agree with everything you said in your last post, but this is your prior statement I was mainly responding to:

"Absolute snake oil...The notion that you can 'hear' an AC cable flys in the face of common sense. There have been too many failed 'blind' tests, convincing test data (please don't tell me your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment!) and not to mention the laws of physics."

This part I must have misinterpreted: "I don't completely discount the possibility that cabling in the signal chain, or even an AC supply cable can make a sonic difference, whether for better or worse. The caveat is: there MUST be a measurable difference in electrical parameters to explain it..." I took that to mean that you doubted such measureable differences really existed. (Not to mention maybe even a few we don't know to measure for...)

Also 'for the record': I've personally never spent what I consider to be unreasonable prices for PC's (used, natch), but even so, some of those I was eagerly hoping for an improvement with I turned out not to like the sound of. I'll have my worms fried, whether canned or fresh, on the theory that you can eat just about anything if it's fried (...and some might say you can also *hear* just about anything if *you're* fried ;^)

If you could not tell the difference among PCs, and call them " snake oil" , and just leave it out of your option.

I had Shunyata, Tara Labs, Nordost, BMI PCs in my system, and my friends brought their Argento, Siltech etc., all are top model PCs to A/B test in my system, let me tell you, they are all different, and you can tell immediately.

Maybe your system or your ear is not sensitive to the changes . No offense:)