Hi Eldartford and Hw61:
Ya 61, their unit is almost as big as mine but mine is bigger!
However, it's not so much the choice of Bell wire or zipcord. It's the proprietary treatment of the wire that counts. My zip- cord is CryoThermionically treated. This process is based on extensive studies on the signal when we are more than 1,000,000,000db down on the main signal! We could never get there without the signal accelerator. At this fundamental level the signal is not broken down into anthing that resembles tiny strings so much but rather tiny vibrating jock-straps! Some people will scoff at this I am sure, but who cares what the bone-headed, number-crunching crowd thinks! As I see there are many non-believers in this thread I think it incombent upon myself to establish my credentials with regard to such research and I invite Corona to do the same.
Clueless
Curriculum Vitae
-Kicked out of High School Physics for naming R&B Band Fourier Transform.
-Kicked out of band for naming it Fourier Transform.
-Depressed and desolate, begin lifetime obsession of collecting and sorting discarded lamp cord in basement.
-Graduated: with High Honors: Omars_ OnlineElectronics Degrees.com
-Published: 101 Audio Uses for Lamp Cord, Lamp Cord Review Journal, Vol. XXVII, NO.34, pg. 217.
-Elected: Fellow to the prestigious A.O.K. (Association of Online Know-it-alls)
-Patent Pending: No. 1,005,560, CryoThermionic Rectifier(CTR Tech.Inc.). Simultaneously chills, burns and rectifies lamp cord into really righteous cable.
-Show Stopper: CryoThermionically treated lamp cord voted Best of Show in any class at GES 2002 (Gullible Electronics Show).
-Elected: Perpetual President of the prestigious A.O.K. (Association of Online Know-it-alls)
-Founder and CPA (Chief Pretentious Audiophile): of Really Righteou$ Cable$, Inc. Our Motto: From the Looks of You -You Cant Afford It
-Bought out by Harmon Holdings, Inc.
-Retired. Writing sex book w/ Mark Levinsons X. Im writing the chapter on impedance matching. Nothing takes the thrill out like an impedance mismatch.
Sincerely
I remain, |
Eldartford, I don't think science is anywhere near as mature as you and others might suggest. We understand the basics of many things but the details of very few.
I have studied college physics and mathematics, and for the most part been successful at it. This 'little bit' of knowledge (along with being a dangerous thing) has piqued my curiosity to continue the study on my own, not by experimenting, but by reading and studying.
I find it amusing that the cutting edge scientists in most fields are far less dogmatic than their followers. There are far fewer hard fast laws among the elite than among audiophiles, and high school teacher. Many admit that much of what is taught as fact is theory, at best.
Teachers were far more convinced of the origin of the world, and man before 'Information Theory' was developed calling into question many of their assertations. These questions do nothing to change the minds of those who do not participate in the study though. I merely use this as an example. I have no desire to enter into a futile debate over the merits of origin, or Information Theory.
I do not own equipment which measures poorly, but sounds great. I guess the reference here is to SETs. I have never heard them, for that matter. But if they sound as good as their proponants say, does that mean something is wrong with SETs, or the tools used to measure. The opinion is that we don't understand what we are trying to measure for the most part, so we don't have the tools to accomplish our desires.
Again I return to the analogy of Dwarves on the Shoulders of Giants. Those who came before went as far as their technology would allow. Now 'modern science' has to build on their foundation, and continue the work rather than sitting back and saying the work is finished. Our technology has developed over the years and we should be able to go much farther than our scientific forefathers. In many areas science is continuing to develop, it just takes a while for theory to affect practical application. Does anyone really think that the stereo systems of today are the best there will ever be? Of course not! That's because science is going to continue to grow and allow for the next great wave of improvements. Those improvements will be in areas which are not properly understood today. Hopefully someone will understand another area of measurement in what is existing now that will allow for the explanation of something not yet understood, and all of us will ride the coat tails of this new breakthrough to experience even better systems and I'm afraid to suggest, even PCs!!!
There is much about ourselves and our own world that we do not understand. To suggest otherwise is simply foolish. There is much for science to learn. Science is the first to admit this. Consider that science has often been wrong in the past, and has admitted as much once proven to be fact. This is a step toward maturity!!!
I wish those who speak out in the name of science would follow the example of the ones with more understanding.
The older I get the more I'm conviced that the person who has the answer did not understand the question. That's only a little bit of a joke! |
Nrchy...Because cosmology and quantum physics are not fully understood this does not mean that we don't know how audio amplifiers work. You need to keep your skepticism within reasonable bounds.
There is a book which I enjoyed reading, and I think you would too. "The Big Bang never happened". Get it from your library. |
Clueless: I bow down before your boffo-ness, and will henceforth only connect my soup cans with CryoThermionically-treated tiny jock straps. :-)
Nrchy: This is a minor, tangential point, but I have a compulsion to chasten any time I hear someone setting 'fact' and 'theory' in opposition to each other ("...much of what is taught as fact is theory, at best"). (A classic instance of this confusion concerns the biologically foundational theory of evolution.) A 'theory' is best understood as a model for reality, meaning that any useful theory will not be contradicted by the facts as they are known - even if that theory is itself not directly testable - and that the theory can explain (or can be modified to explain) the observable facts. To call an idea about how the universe works a theory is in no way to denigrate its validity, provided it is supported by all the available evidence. Indeed, some of the most predictive science is theory-based - maybe, someday, String Theory included. |
Zaikesman...I think that the way it goes is that, first, someone comes up with a "Hypothesis". At this point it is pure conjecture. Then, the Hypothesis is tested by examination of data from tests that ought to be affected by the Hypothesis. If most of the data corresponds with what would be predicted by the Hypothesis, it becomes a "Theory". Not all theories are equally well supported by data. However, when there is a great deal of good supporting data, the theory is called a "Fact". Few people would argue that the theory that the earth is round is not a fact.
I consider power cord effects to be a hypothesis. |
said above >>Not all theories are equally well supported by data.
With regard to this thread string theory will never be subject to verification or data. It is almost pure mathematics, and will likely forever remain so, which has caused some physicists to call it metaphysics rather than science.
This was on of the reasons for my "buffo' above. The idea of going from string theory to hands on power cord conclusions is so silly, imho, as to make my posts look "normal."
Cheers
I remain |
Eldartford, I think there is a lot of correlation between the two points. Just because we understand some of how an amplifier works, doesn't mean we understand all the minute details. In that respect there are many similarities between cosmology, quantum physics, and amplifier design.
Zaikesman, the point was that there is a difference between fact and theory. If it is only a preponderance of evidence, the gap still exists. I am not denegrating theories. I am simply pointing out that theories do not have the preponderence of evidence that a fact does, so based on that they must be considered to less 'concrete' than fact.
All I'm trying to say is that what will all of these arguements that say "we can't measure the difference therefore there must not be a difference." will have to be reevaluated if/when someone brings the next advancement to the electrical sciences.
When the Catholic Church said the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe, those assertations did not change the facts. Exploration and science have not changed the universe, they have only verified it.
There is much more verification that can and will take place in regard to our knowledge of electricity. |
Eldartford:
...Hypothesis is tested by examination of data from tests that ought to be affected by the hypothesis. If most of data corresponds with what would be predicted by the hypothesis, it becomes a Theory.
The intention of the following statement is to promote the evolution of a point.
Many months ago you were constructing a power cable. We had a brief discussion about its design.
I suggested with an admitted lack of sensitivity: Thats not the way it works. Do you remember? Now you state: I consider power cord effects to be a hypothesis. When one has *NO* research to back up a design what other conclusion could you have? Before constructing your cable did you know or have an insight into the importance of:
1. Resonance signature of the conductors, both as a single filament and as a bundle?
2. Did you know the resonant characteristics of the dielectric used and its effect on the conductor bundle?
3. Did you know how this package would interface with the characteristics of the connectors used?
4. Did you know the field interaction between conductors or filaments?
5. Did you understand the field relationship between the conductors that were in polarity opposition?
6. Did you understand how this construction was going to interact with the attaching power supply?
If you did not have this knowledge, then I agree you were truly constructing a hypothesis. For a cable to be an effective tool with dramatic performance it must be a theory based on results not something founded on belief.
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Nrchy: I agree with your statements about measureability not being the end-all in audio. I do believe that any difference which can be heard *could* be measured, if only an adequate test existed, and also the corollary that although measurement might not reveal any differences, differences might nonetheless still be audible. I am comfortable with viewing this inconvenience as being not at all contradictory to the scientific aspect of the art.
As for the supposed gap between the weight we might accord to 'facts' and 'theories', two things: 1) 'Facts' can be found to be incorrect or incomplete, same as theories, and 2) facts in isolation don't necessarily tell us very much about how the world works when taken outside of the conceptual 'big picture' provided by theories.
In any case, the demand for the preponderance of evidence falls to the party making the assertion for a new way of looking at the world before it falls to skeptics for possible refutation. Corona's claims can't be specifically refuted when they're not being specifically laid out in the first place, and this he knows very well. Merely stating there could be a lot we don't yet know about the world doesn't make his leaps of apparent illogic any more convincing, absent his presenting some sort of persuasive argument and evidence to support his claims.
If this is denied - as I fully expected and have found it to be - based on vague assertions of market propriety, then he still *could* perhaps deserve to be taken seriously *if* he were able to demonstrate that his product is clearly superior to those not possessing his secret alleged technology. But without a good faith attempt to educate us on why we might expect this to be so, it just goes with the territory that many potential customers won't feel he has earned that chance.
Oh, and BTW, exploration and science may not have changed the universe, only helped explain it, but they sure as hell have changed our world, for better or worse. |
Zaikesman:
Are you expecting an endorsement from God? |
Corona: I'm not sure exactly what you intend to imply by that 'question' (Maybe that nothing you could say would be good enough for me? Not true! - though you're correct if you assume I would still likely take exception with your underlying assertions about the applicability of String Theory), but the answer to your query is "no" regardless, since I don't believe in the existence of any deities. Beyond that, I think the criticisms of your story so far, as stated by myself and the others, have been laid out here cogently enough to be readily comprehended. But we can just agree to disagree: You'll miss out on a potential customer, and I'll miss out on what might be a decent, possibly even superlative, power cord. It's called freedom of choice, and I suspect we'll both live to fight again. Happy listening! |
Corona...You are right about me building an experimental power cord, and plans for a test to see if it had any effect vs the very small zip cord that came with the power amp. I have got the cord all made and ready to go, but I always seem to have something more important to do than to install it on one of two monoblock amps, and run the test. My cord simply immitates features of some aftermarket cords, and apart from having a lot of copper in it, I doubt that I will see any effect. This project is low priority. |
Nrchy...Contrary to what you say, the workings of an audio power amplifier are understood "in all the minute details" by any competent engineer, and even by some incompetent ones. Cosmology is totally different. |
Zaikesman:
The God thing was a joke. I did not see anyone as a potential customer; what I would like to do is contribute to a change of direction in audio. If you ever decide to look for the Isness Im sure you will never find it in belief of any kind; but that is another topic. Have a good one and well get back to you later.
Eldartford:
I respect the fact you built your own pc, keep it up. You and Zaikesman [and a few others] have been tough as nails but also interesting. I have enjoyed the dialog and will continue to look for you guys. I hope you both have a happy new year.
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Agree with Eldartford - engineers & competent (& even some incompetent) designers fully understand the minute workings of power amps! The electronics, electricity & electro-magnetic concepts that are needed to design an amp are what I would consider basic in all 3 fields. YOU might not understand these concepts thoroughly for very good reasons & you might be extrapolating your lack of knowledge onto mankind! There is very little hi-tech in a power amp as it uses a lot of high power devices, the operation of which is very well understood. That's why ss power amps last a lifetime! Rowland's Model 201 use a new switching power supply module. It's new for audio but in use elsewhere (space exploaration, for eg.) for a long, long time. That type of power supply module is also very well understood! In fact improvements in power amps comes mostly from leaps in metalurgy (better hook-up wires, passive components, etc). |
While I consider the statements about amplifiers being fully understood to be as absurd as statement as was ever made in the history of the world, the statement cannot be currently disproven.
As design continues to improve and the next big step is made we will all recognize that there was something about amps that maybe we did not firmly grasp.
That is as absurd as saying you know everything about your wife. People will never know everything about anything in this life! |
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I got a couple amplifier design and construction books authored by G Randy Slone, Ive only browsed through them, and im no electrical engineer, but SS amplifier designs are not exactly complicated. It is all basic electronics.
Im sure that Quantum physics which has been accepted as fact, will have SOMETHING to do within the spectrum of electrical sciences, but basically you construct it and it works, and it is known why.
Im not sure i understand the relation of mystic and unknown powers of the universe that people keep trying to tag onto an amplifier, wire, or whatever else.
I understand the idea that a high end power cable might have some good filtering attributes from it, but i still think that this entire debate is somewhat useless because some people have better power being fed into thier homes than other people do.
Maybe if you have clean power and a good power cord you can hear a difference, or maybe you cannot. Maybe you can only hear a difference if you have crappy power.
Maybe they fact that some people hear differences depends on the magnetic fields in the earth. Who knows.
The fact is this, if two people buy a $400 power cable, one of them claims to hear a great difference in sound and the other claims to not hear anything different, i refuse to believe that one of them "Isnt hearing right" Personally i would be more to lean to puyt merit in the person who states he cannot hear any difference, because it DOES sound like the other guy is trying to justify an expence while the other guy chalks it off as a mistake.
The world of High Fidelity 2 channel audio is not exactly making leaps and bounds of technical advancements. It is more of different configurations, or slight modifications.
Seeing as how i have never used a high end power cord, i cannot totally discount thier sonic benefit.
There are 2 groups of people. Those who hear the differences and those who dont.
Maybe instead of claiming mystical forces, other factors should be looked at for explanation. It could be alot of different things and it could probably be explained if looked at the right way, and there is nothing as far as i see to indicate some strange mysterious things happening in the power cable itself.
I would look more at geographical location, look for electromagnetic lines (way lines)in the earth, look at the distance and quality of power and lines in the persons house, or how many people share that grid. Does your house have alot of metal in it? what is used for your main ground? will the equipment you are running actually even benefit from the power cord? Maybe some equipment does and some doesent.
seems like alot of finger pointing and name calling. Not much mutual interest in getting to the bottom of this mystery.
You might find that the altitude in colorado puts a system a little close to the electromagnetic shield and differences cannot be heared, while in florida they can.
who knows?
All this badgering and name calling isnt going to get to the bottom of this, and sometimes things work a certain way for resons beyond the component itself.
there is a practical explanation to everything, and i dont see the benefit to pass it along as faith in the unknown.
I would like to see what happens when the non believers hear a comparison in a believers house, and vica verca.
Sum it up, add it up, locate it and pin it. The answer is there, and it is nothing fantastic or beyong comprehension, it is something nobody thought to look at yet. |
Maybe it's a semantic argument, but in a sense I agree with Nrchy that nothing is completely understood, but the current model of electro-magnetic behavior at non-relativistic speeds and non-absolute zero temps is quite comprehensive. As a scientific endeavor the design of audio spectrum amplifiers is trivial, roughly equivalent to designing a refrigerator. |
well who knows? as newer areas of science develop we may find it has a major impact to our own endeavors.
I personally dont expect and dramatic breakthroughs that will make fantastic changes to amps, cords, or whatever.
However, anyone who will state that "there is nothing more to learn from something" did not look hard enough
I remember hearing a quote, i cannot remember who said it but it was quite some time ago, around the Thomas Edison days. It was a disginuished political figure and a well respected intellect of the time.
He stated that "Everything that can be invented, has been invented". I wish i knew who said that.
Either way, there is always new things to learn. |
At times it does seem that change is moving very slow. This is because most people are not in search of it. Most are content with the same old thing wrapped in a new container; so this is what we get. I think there is a sense of security with the known and many find that appealing. When the Wright Brothers flew the first plane the public reaction was not one of joy but one of shock; brought on by a belief that the feat could not be done. New and creative ideas are usually met with indifference or disbelief; this has been the norm throughout history. |
I still wonder what does the power cord do that couldn't be fixed in the power supply.
That would be my first quest if I found a majik cord.
It would also helpexplain to customers what they were buying.
steve |
Oh good grief - Yes Corona, you're Orville and Wilbur reincarnate...Well, Happy New Year everybody, I'm off to floss my teeth with String Theory and then it's nitey-nite time, when I curl up underneath my appealingly familiar security blanket and close my eyes... |
Breaking the stride for a moment, and getting back to the original question......... If power cords are so very important, and my amp, preamp etc needs that $1000+ cord to make it sound that much better. Then can somebody please tell me why Conrad Johnson is still installing " FIXED " PC's to their equipment? Surely a company with their expertise and knowledge would be installing IEC connectors on their equipment if they thought it would make a great sonic improvment?
But then maybe they haven't heard of that rope theory yet :) |
Kt88...That IEC connector itself is probably a bigger problem than the use of #14 zip cord. Hard soldered to the power transformer primary wires is obviously the way to go. |
Kt88:
"Circuit heads" don't "get" physics. I deal with these guys all the time; you can't use architecture to design an amplifier and you can't use electrical engineering to design an audio cable. It's that simple! |
rats@mong.us:
The amount of distortion generated by traditional cables is huge.
We have just completed a ported dynamic driver type speaker with no x-over. The speaker will not perform well at all without our new power cable design feeding the electronics. The problem is that acute. This speaker is the results of 4 years of hard research.
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Well I doubt if I qualify as a "circuit head" but I always thought basic circuitry (electromagnetisms, fields, etc) was physics. Silly me.
Lets see Corona. First you resort to "string theory", a theory that has almost no practical application and is entirely unfinished mathmatics (with several versions at the monent) to justify simple propositions that do not at all require it.
above >>>The following would not be supported by String Theory.
1. Building a cable without any consideration of the field that surrounds the conductor.
2. Designing a power cable as an isolated entity as if is has no bearing on the performance of the speaker,amp,etc
3. Claiming that electrical and mechanical resonances are mutually exclusive phenomena.
4. Claiming inductance, capacitance, resistance are the central issues in all cable design....>>>>
Right;--gee... us stupid circuit heads haven't figured those out! Do fields really surround a wire-I thought those twisted pairs just looked nice! And wire has an effect down the circuit??...thanks for the enlightenment. You string theory guys really know your stuff!
If you had used a "garden variety" type of physics-dealing with photons - phonons, etc.. QED or somethng that is actually understood, and backed it up with something, you might have found a different reception.
Your appeal to string theory is just grandstanding and now folks who disagree with you just don't get basic physics and are simpletons afraid of "free thinkers" like yourself. If you want to study resonance in audio good! But string theory ain't gonna help.
I like to keep an open mind - but not so much that my brains fall out.
Ya..I know what some of you are thinking. Clueless gets New Years day off and he has too much egg-nog already.
You're right!
I remain, |
Clueless:
For a guy who admits he does not know what he is talking about, you certainly have some very strong opinions. |
Corona: For a guy who thinks he knows what he's talking about, you certainly have a very persnickety speaker there... |
Zaikesman:
Anything connected to the system with the "Direct Drive" speakers in place, that does not have incredibly low distortion levels will have that imperfection announced loud and without any cause for doubt. The speakers were intended for those who already have our cables; they will not work with lesser designs. |
Slappy, for a guy who thinks he knows what he's talking about, your cinnamon chicken cigar post sure doesent make sence. |
Corona,
I'm assuming your referring to the good folks at Conrad Johnson when you made the statement below?
"Circuit heads" don't "get" physics. I deal with these guys all the time; "
Conrad Johnson is not my favorite audio gear, but I have listened to enough of their equipment to know... They are much more intelligent then to be referred to as " circuit heads " They build high quality audio equipment, and they have sold a ton of it? Why don't you call Conrad Johnson and ask them if you can come and prove your theory to them? I'm sure they will be jumping for joy! But in the mean time perhaps you shouldn't bad mouth a very reputable audio company.
Get back to me when your stringy cable has accomplished half of what Conrad Johnson has accomplished. |
Kt 88:
So you think installing a "FIXED PC" to audio gear is a real clever idea? |
Slappy:
"Cinnamon chicken cigar";could you expand on this subject a little more? |
Mr. Corona,
Did I miss the name of your power cable in this discussion, or is it still under development?
If I did miss it, somehow, apologies. Could you repeat it?
Thank you. |
Corona: I have to admit, that is a brilliant stratagem which I'm sure all cable manufacturers would like to institute if they could: Market speakers that are promised to sound correct only with their own wire goods, regardless of what electronics are used (actually, I think there are one or two *speaker* manufacturers who have already pioneered this 'technique'...). Well, why not? - In for a lepton, in for a molecule, I always say! |
Zaikesman:
Your mind has a tendency to live in the shadows; no, that is not reason it happned that way. We could not get the speaker to work properly,we traced the problem to the power cables at this point we realized a more advanced pc was going to be absolutely necessary. Like I said before this process evolved over a 4 year period. |
Hmm, maybe this is more of a Dixon-Lerche conjecture. Corona's PCs postulate that, identical properties exist even though none of us seem to agree on them.
Or......
Maybe we all reside in one of the, is it 9 other dimensions, that "String theory" requires exist.
I wonder do these PCs vibrate when you curl them end to end? |
What can I say Corona? My mind has a mind of its own... |
Zaikesman:
Good one, it proves there is nothing wrong with your sense of humor. |
Corona,
As I said before, you can contact CJ and see what they think of your stringy cable. Who knows? Maybe they will rename their company " Corona Conrad Johnson " Well maybe........... since your cables are so great, the will completely drop their name and rename the company " Corona "
Yeah, get back to me when you can design " AND SELL " as much quality equipment as CJ.
Hey, aren't you forgetting something? Without the amp, pre, source, your cable is bumming. What good are tires without cars to put them on?
Power cords snake oil? No I don't think that is a correct statement. A snake would never try to sell you it's own oil. The snake needs that oil to stay alive! A snake will sucker you into something it doesn't need, and also you don't need, or even something ( half as good ) to replace what you already have. |
KT88, thinking of snakes,
Did you read about that python they found in Indonesia? i think it was indonesia.
Anyways, this thing is the biggest snake ever found. The previous record holder was a reticulated python of 33 feet in legnth.This new snake is the same species, 49 feet long, 2.8 feet in diameter, and weighs in just under 1,000lbs.
the local tribe worshiped it as a god.
now, back to the arguement.
:) |
Kt 88:
You sound like the "enlightened" individuals who think the moniker "Corona" is referring to a Mexican beer. |
Hey, has anyone tried direct wiring their system components into the house wiring and bypassed all use of so called detachable power cords at the wall and the component? Also, removed all circuit breakers as well between the power company and the house.
In fact why not have the spouse get on an exercise bike with generator (maybe 120 Watts for about 30 minutes, good workout) and power the system completely off the grid via solid 10 gauge copper monofilament directly into the components. And first run this off-the-grid current through a power plant that completely reregulates/regenerates the AC from a DC voltage source. Lets' get down to doing this correctly once and for all.
How about a local audiophile society that gets on the community treadmill several times week and that treadmill generates clean power for all subscribers'/exercisers' systems. Our ears will hear better and we will have enhanced the listening experience because of the true source of the current.
Plus we'll all live longer because, afterall, you can't take it with you. |
I started another thread on something similar and I apologize for cross posting this, but while we are at it, what is the theory behind digital and analog power cords? And HIGH current digital cables? If power cords truly make a difference, does the type of power cord, analog vs digital, make the next difference? Are there such a thing as high current CDPs? |
Corona,
I'll worry about the beer later. In the mean time..... why don't you tell me how much quality audio equipment you have designed. And then call CJ and tell them how wonderful your cables are. And then get back to me.
Slappy,
Yes I suppose no matter how big a snake is, there is always a bigger one lying in wait of some unexpected passer by. And in the case of the one found in Indonesia, they found it, before it found them. I guess when a snake grows to big, it becomes quite obvious to all. It has no place to hide.
This is my final post in this thread. So Corona, you have the last opportunity to knock me out with your words. But be careful, if you miss perhaps the wind your words will knock you out.
I think at this point my time is better served listening to me music. |
Matchstikman:
We have found the same degree of improvement whether we are attaching our power cables to digital or analog audio equipment. A real insight manifested when we linked a pc to a battery supplied preamp. Since the unit stores it energy in the form of DC we felt that no real performance benefit would occur with a state of the art power cord; to the owners and our surprise the improvement was substantial. This probable means that while the unit is drawing energy to store the effect the pc have on the electromagnetic configuration is not altered even when converted to DC and stored in the battery. |
For all the hyperbole in this thread, (in particular surrounding much of Mr. Corona's comments, no one has answered Mr. Drubin's question above. Searching previous threads on "Sahuaro", there is a mention in one that an Audiogon member has auditioned (?) some. Maybe, if he is willing, he can at least, give us his opinion. Or anyone else? |
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