@artemus_5 Which only makes my point, good or bad, the rule of man holds as final arbiter for law.

@bdp24

A lot of Democrats were Reagan Democrats, so don’t hold that against Neil. Reagan won 49 states in the 1984 election and you don’t do that without a lot of support from the opposite side. Why did so many Democrats like Reagan even though they disliked his economic policies? Because he was an effective communicator and he was wiling to compromise to get things done. He and Tip O’Neill worked together and both compromised, something which since the days of Newt Gingrich you no longer see. Reagan also started us down the path of ending the Cold War and kept inflation low. If you want to pick out a villain, Gingrich is the one to choose.

Politics and art are nearly inextricably linked.  Witness what happened when people did not stand at attention during the playing of the National Anthem.

Context is important, but any song can be politicized.  A few examples:

Dolly Parton "9 to 5"

Bruce Springsteen "Born In the USA"

Billie Holiday "Strange Fruit"

The Clash "London Calling"

Duke Ellington "Black, Brown And Beige"

Bob Dylan "Blowing In the Wind"

George Cohan "Yankee Doodle Dandy"

Aretha Franklin "Respect"

Stevie Wonder "Livin' In the City"

The Who "My Generation"

The Band "The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down"

Marvin Gaye "Inner City Blues"

Village People "Y.M.C.A."

Jimi Hendrix "Machine Gun"

Rolling Stones "Under Cover Of the Night"

Gang Of Four "Call Me Up"

They even politicized "A Whiter Shade Of Pale".

Clearly, history has shown music and politics cannot be separated.  In that case, I agree with Frogman's above comments.

Please remember to add that the Democratic party of the 1800s was constituted by Andrew Jackson's Nativist/populist coalition, and the GOP was a brand new party devoted to abolition, with its base in the industrial North.  In today's world, the polical roles of the parties has flipped 180 degrees.  The GOP turned into its current alignment when it sought to improve its electoral performance by capturing George Wallace's voters.  The Democrats came to be what they are now after the Dixiecrats switched their alliegance to the newly re-positioned GOP.  Under FDR and LBJ, Democrats  championed of an activist Government promoting societal progress and strengthening the safety net.  The GOP opposes this, and favors nothing but reducing taxation.

The issue of stare decisis today is fraught with political overtones.  The SCOTUS with its new Republican appointed majority can lay waste to many progressive achievemants of the past by applying their tortured "originalist" logic.  Stare Decisis for Thee, Judicial Activism for Me.

@crustycoot + 100 - excellent description of what happened.

At 70 years of age and from MD, I certainly remember the Dixiecrats; Spiro Agnew got to be governor of Maryland because he ran as the liberal Republican, believe it or not; the Democrat running against him was a Dixiecrat....  

@onhwy61 - Good choices! But the main point of The Clash, Bob Dylan, and Gang of Four was political, as were many of these songs listed by other artists.

These songs didn't need to be 'politicized' - they pretty blatantly were to begin with. 

@uncledemp

I just don’t consider him or most musicians, actors, talk show hosts, and audio enthusiasts a reliable source of information to base my views upon.

Well said.

Here in the UK the early 80s were a time when quite a few UK artists got political (the Clash, the Specials, the Jam etc, and this seemed to culminate in the Live Aid fiasco of 1985.

After that, music became gradually less overtly politicised.

By then even the Red Wedge founder himself, Billy Bragg, realised the naivety of trying to mix it with the political big boys of the world.

Potential combative thread and I commend the fellow members on this forum for keeping the exchange civil and informative

On a humorous note I recall a televised Garth Brooks concert from DC and the audience was mostly elected officials for the senate and congress, the last song was Friends In Low Places and on your feet sing along audience participation was in full bloom

Found it amusing that most all were singing with all their heart, I've Got Friends In Low Places, fascinating irony

United we stand, divided we fall - lyrics by John Dickenson circa 1865 and Roger Waters circa 1990

**** I just don’t consider him or most musicians, actors, talk show hosts, and audio enthusiasts a reliable source of information to base my views upon.****
 

Bingo!

If it's gonna be good you gotta write/compose from the heart & gut. In any case, I might as well admit it now. I have a strange fixation on rhymes that involve Moon and June.

Johnny Cash was an early fan of Bob Dylan, but Johnny's cause was the plight of Native Americans. He did an album dedicated to the subject (Bitter Tears: Ballads Of The American Indian).

Merle Haggard is most well known by the general population for his "Okie From Muskogee". "We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee"; I guess his good friend Willie Nelson didn't live there. ;-)

I knew a guy who did sound for The Circle Star Theater in San Carlos, California (a half hour drive south of San Francisco). A bassist I knew went to the theater to see Merle sometime in the 70's, and our soundman friend asked him if he wanted to meet Merle (well duh ;-). They went onto the band bus, and the bassist told me Merle and his band were sitting around the kitchen table, a huge mountain of blow being shared by all. I guess Merle knew America was itching for a redneck anthem, and didn't mind a little cynical cashing-in on that market. 

This topic is worth mentioning only if you live in a country ruled by dictatorships. If there is no personal risk or danger to the artist, then it does not count for much what is said or performed.

Now, imagine being a composer in Soviet Russia during the rule of Stalin. If an artist then, had the balls to write any music that didn’t meet the approval of that great music critic Stalin, it meant much more. Some did some didn’t.

Shostakovich comes to mind.

In the West, its just kids having fun upsetting their parents.

Cheers

Talking about Garth Brooks and politics, a few years ago Garth came to give a concert in Detroit.  The shows were sold out.  Garth came out in a football jersey #20 with Sanders across the back.  His fans were taken aback.  Garth is supporting Bernie Sanders in the '20 election?  There were jeers.  Both Garth and Barry Sanders went to Oklahoma State and Barry's jersey number was 20 when he played for the Lions.  Garth had to explain it to the crowd.

@rok2id the Dixie Chicks might have a thing or two to say about the matter of personal risk?

“Political.”

Just another needless category.  There’s more than one way to skin a cat.  The cat-skinning, in this case, is artistic expression.  Some artists may choose to express themselves in ways that are more routinely an explicit commentary on social matters and may do it with more frequency than others.  
If the music is good, it’s good.

Yes, “Beer for My Horses” by Toby Keith and Willie Nelson (why, Willie, why?!?!) has all the subtlety, nuance and complexity of a club to the head, but the song is not bad because the ideas expressed are bad (but, in all reality, probably) the song is bad because the song is really, really bad.

Just yesterday, I threw on “Okie from Muskogee.”  I forgot how stupid and bad the ideas expressed in that song were.  I still liked it.  Why?  Well, I guess I just think it’s a good song.

Most musicians, especially rock era musicians, and even later day bluegrass and Americana music artists are decidedly liberal if they are political at all. This uncritical "group-think" is pervasive among them. I note that Bela Fleck of Bela Fleck and the Flecktones even voted for communist Bernie Sanders.

It’s like they all grew up smoking weed and jamming, so they were in that mindset and never outgrew it.

As a conservative, I simply try to enjoy their music for what it is worth and leave the politics aside. But it is refreshing to find someone not indoctrinated as most are or actually even push back against that indoctrination like Kid Rock or Ted Nugent.

I can still enjoy Jason Isbell’s "Georgia Blue" even though the back story is that he named it that way because Georgia went "blue" in the last election cycle. At least the songs on the album (some REM and and other standards) aren’t political even if the artists themselves are.

It’s like Frank Zappa said of these political types of music artists, "Shut up and play yer guitar".

Thank God, or the Supreme Soviet (if that is what you believe in) that stare decisis isn't the be all, end all. Otherwise we might still have slavery.

When ideas become so repugnant, even ideas enshrined by the courts, (think late term abortion), it is good that times can change. 

Actually, Frank Zappa himself got very involved in politics in 1987, when he went up against Tipper Gore over warning labels on albums, even testifying before Congress.

I know a fair number of musicians who identify as Libertarians, the interesting mix of social liberalism and economic conservatism.

@moonwatcher Your agenda clear, always inculcated belief system based on indoctrination for liberals, truth for conservatives, inevitable zero sum game.

And talk about repugnant, forcing victims of rape and incest to carry child to term.

Kind a simple if you do not like an entertainers political opinions (who really cares?) Then do not listen, buy or view their material. 

No one is making you listen, unless you are in North Korea. 

I'd prefer not have a performer's politics take front and center. This is all too common these days. But I won't stop listening to Joni or Neil because we part ways politically. I don't care for Bruce Springsteens politics either, but I wasn't a big fan before I knew, so not much of an issue for me.

@moonwatcher -

It’s like Frank Zappa said of these political types of music artists, "Shut up and play yer guitar".

WOW, you sure don't get FZ at all, do you???? 

To me, an entertainer's opinion is worth every bit as much as anybody else's, even 'some guy on the internet', which is really what people on forums ultimately are.

I'd ask people who think entertainers/athletes' opinions are worthless, what it is that THEY do for a living, and why that makes them better or smarter human beings than musicians or athletes? 

@tylermunns - from what I understand, Merle actually wrote that song as satire, but it was taken at face value, as too often happens with satire....  Cause like most musicians, Merle was smoking plenty of marijuana, whether in Muskogee or anyplace else...

Yes, I do "get" Frank Zappa just fine. Been listening probably before you were born.  

A musician's political opinion is nearly worthless.  The local plumber's or bricklayer guy's are probably better because they live in the REAL world, working 8 to 12 hour days, making ends meet.  

Considering most musicians have liberal arts degrees (except for maybe that guitarist in Queen who was an astrophysist), I doubt most even took Econ 101 and 102.  People like Bela Fleck supporting a communist like Bernie Sanders, who even the OMB said his plans made no fiscal sense, speaks volumes about the non-critical thinking that most of these people do. 

Whatever. Just play the music already and dispense with the political posturing.  If I want political opinions I'll seek them out by those who can at least intelligently discuss them, their pluses and minuses.

Anyone giving a musician's or actor's or actress's political opinion any more than anyone else's deserves the lame government they get.  

Looking at my current 401K thanks to Bidumb and company shows me that I won't be spending $8k on any damned speakers anytime soon, that's for sure. 

@sns This is a good post:

“Your agenda clear, always inculcated belief system based on indoctrination for liberals, truth for conservatives, inevitable zero sum game.

And talk about repugnant, forcing victims of rape and incest to carry child to term.”

Well said.

Laughable, insightful or just plain entertaining, I get a kick out of musicians who put their political views front and center in their music. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Just remind yourself that you don't have to sniff them too closely...

@moonwatcher - I was born in 1951 - how about you?

And no, you understand nothing about FZ. 'Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar' is what people like you would yell at him when he was trying to talk to the audience. This is called 'irony' or 'sarcasm' - look those words up. FZ was all about both.

I will take anybody's opinion over your's. The rest of your foolish post speaks for itself. 

There is so much easily verified political misinformation being spewed here that it is actually funny. And, appalling. 
 

I try not to let politics influence my musical choices. I cannot say the same thing about ignorant, demeaning music that has become the background for a lifestyle of fatherless children, no personal accountability, homicide, and poor education. 

Music drives an emotional message.  That message can be positive or negative.  I try not to support the negative.

Mixing politics and music can make music seems relevant and important for the period in which it was written. In that respect, it can support social change and and give voice to things people feel but can’t put into words.

But generally that also makes them irrelevant a few years later. "Ohio" by CSN crystallized a moment, but it doesn’t even get played on the radio anymore and people under the age of 60 have never and will never listen to it..

Contrasted to musicians who are vocal about their politics outside of their work; it doesn’t make sense, musicians have no insight greater than any other people about politics, and you just alienate half your audience.

Consider the reason people still listen to Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and a small set of musicians hundreds of years after they’re dead. People still listen because the music is good. Whatever politics they had or their works represent is largely irrelevant to why we still listen to them.

My 27 year old loves "Ohio". Though I get your point as to a hundred years from now. Beethoven changed his mind about Napoleon,  but the inspiration cannot be overlooked.  Idealism has its place. Our founders were looked upon as radical idealists with no hope of success. A printer, a silversmith, a brewer all "communists" in their day.. And thanks for keeping this thread mostly between the rails.

Musical problems deserve musical solutions and political problems deserve political solutions. Musicians at times may use politics, just as politicians at times use music  This doesn’t make musicians experts in politics any more than it makes politicians experts in music. Now where’s that Nation of Ulysses album I was spinning last night?

@scott22

With your opinion you will educate us on what he Trump did to be called a traitor ? 1.99 gal gas ?

Closed the S. Border ? Tax Cuts for middle class ?

Stop all wars with Peace around the World ? Record low unemployment for blacks & hispanics !

Please enlighten us with your reciepts on Treason !

Compare the puppet who cant put a couple sentences together oh and takes zero questions. Stomps on the Constitutional rights of Americans everyday !

Im sure waiting on your reciepts !

Happy Listening

P.S Watch for all his reciepts ! Zero

Watch what happens next to this post ?

Blocked or taken down. 

While I pay little attention to lyrics, they do seem to have an effect on some people. The young and undeveloped seem particularly susceptible to musical propaganda. But my thoughts are that there are probably no lyricists, or other types of celebrities, with the brainpower of a Thomas Sowell or Jordan Peterson, so people should definitely look elsewhere for their inspirations, political or otherwise.

@jssmith While I pay little attention to lyrics, they do seem to have an effect on some people. The young and undeveloped seem particularly susceptible to musical propaganda.

This once happened to me in my youth with songs that were backmasked.

In hindsight it wasn’t so much the music that was the source of the propoganda but those who promoted the fine time-wasting art of backmasking.

Green Day....AMERICAN IDIOT......Great song!

thanks asm007. +1

With your opinion you will educate us on what he Trump did to be called a traitor ?

Uhhh....................how about a very blatant, visible, attempted coup to steal the election and thwart the will of We, The People because his ego is so incredibly fragile his tiny mind absolutely cannot countenance even the THOUGHT of losing?  Something never before attempted in the history of the USA, btw.  Are you seriously asking the question now, after the mountain evidence that has been dropped on your head?  Firsthand testimony - not by liberal democrats, or Nancy Pelosi, or Bernie Sanders or AOC - but by right wing members of his OWN administration?  Even that crackpot Eastman admitted he knew it was illegal.  If Michael Luttig's testimony didn't open your eyes, you're hopeless.  All due respect.

That said..............

I can't believe Gil-Scot Heron hasn't been mentioned.

CrustyCoot, Well said. I share your observations on 60's counterculture and the fact that there was an equal and opposing view very active at the time. That view did not cause the outrage that was covered by the press. Nor did that view create coverage and or documentaries like Woodstock.....mainly because they couldn't.

@jssmith 

But my thoughts are that there are probably no lyricists, or other types of celebrities, with the brainpower of a Thomas Sowell or Jordan Peterson, so people should definitely look elsewhere for their inspirations, political or otherwise.

Well, I haven't found any.

But then I've only been listening for a few decades.

@hartf36 

I respectfully couldn't disagree with you more, but thanks for the GSH mention.

My friend Calvin introduced him to me during our student days and I never forgot.

However, I have to say, the world today is an entirely different place to what it was back then.

The information age has changed almost everything.

What was up is now down, what was right is now left, what could be said then, can't be now, there were 2 genders back then, now seemingly there's 30, rather strangely considering, race is a bigger issue than ever etc.

Division, division, division.

24 hour division seems to be the norm today.

Thankfully we have the likes of Petersen and Sowell keeping it real.

God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols comes to mind.

The entire Blows Against the Empire album by Paul Kantner and The Planet Earth Rock and Roll Orchestra is another, as are Volunteers, Crown of Creation by the Airplane.

Then there’s Gorecki’s Symphony #3. Sorta relevant given the sadness that is Ukraine today:

Words Accompanying
Górecki’s Symphony No. 3
(in translation)

First Movement

My son, my chosen and beloved
Share your wounds with your mother
And because, dear son, I have always carried you in my heart,
And always served you faithfully
Speak to your mother, to make her happy,
Although you are already leaving me, my cherished hope.
(Lamentation of the Holy Cross Monastery from the "Lysagóra Songs" collection. Second half of the 15th century)

Second Movement

No, Mother, do not weep,
Most chaste Queen of Heaven
Support me always.
"Zdrowas Mario." (*)
(Prayer inscribed on wall 3 of cell no. 3 in the basement of "Palace," the Gestapo’s headquarters in Zadopane; beneath is the signature of Helena Wanda Blazusiakówna, and the words "18 years old, imprisoned since 26 September 1944.")
(*) "Zdrowas Mario" (Ave Maria)—the opening of the Polish prayer to the Holy Mother

Third Movement

Where has he gone
My dearest son?
Perhaps during the uprising
The cruel enemy killed him

Ah, you bad people
In the name of God, the most Holy,
Tell me, why did you kill
My son?

Never again
Will I have his support
Even if I cry
My old eyes out

Were my bitter tears
to create another River Oder
They would not restore to life
My son

He lies in his grave
and I know not where
Though I keep asking people
Everywhere

Perhaps the poor child
Lies in a rough ditch
and instead he could have been
lying in his warm bed

Oh, sing for him
God’s little song-birds
Since his mother
Cannot find him

And you, God’s little flowers
May you blossom all around
So that my son
May sleep happily
(Folk song in the dialect of the Opole region)

Give it a minute or two. Unless you have good audio, the opening few minutes of notes are barely audible. 
 

Mimi is Joan Baez’s kid sister.
Richard was a beat poet and writer most famous for his only novel that he completed “Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me” before he died in a motorcycle accident in his late 20s.

”It’s a protest song!”

As someone who is an artist himself, and whose work involved political commentary and often found himself in court over speech and other constitutional issues (see https://www.oyez.org/cases/1994/93-1525), I find this discussion to be impossibly binary.