I would not recommend Museus power cord for your amp, though. Not enough current capability.
Please tutor me on some integrated amp basics.
I’ve recently purchased Magico A3 speakers and a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable with an Ortofon Black 2M moving magnet cartridge. I have a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player to play the few (maybe a hundred or so) CD’s in my possession.
I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike
I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike
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To clarify my last post I’ll be needing roughly ten feet of speaker cable (about three meters) or maybe a little less depending on where the Magico A3’s sound best in the listening room. Inna, I read a good review of the Museus but they were asking $1600 for ten feet. I’ll have to look around. They sounded promising. Maybe I can find a better price, or maybe used. I did spot some used Purist Audio products today when looking around but don’t recall which model. You might be on to something here. If my Ortofon 2M Black sounds a little bright I guess I’ll have to live with it. It was supposed to be well matched with the VPI. Drrsutliff, thanks for recommending the Synchestra Signature Speaker Cables. I was just a few blocks away from the place you provided the link to only last week, when I drove up to Richmond, VA to pick up my Luxman, I could have stopped in and maybe got a demo. I’ll find a review if I can. Glupson, It’s hard to know what to think about them mounting their own spades with all this cable esoterica in play. Audio Advisor said they can buy the same Audioquest Rocket 88 cable by the spool so you'f think it would be no big deal. I did see Audioquests next higher model Castle Rock for sale used for about $650, but only eight feet long, which would be cutting it a little bit close. I’ll keep looking. I think you’re right. I’ll send you my PIN for safe keeping. I’m going to the one place in town that carries expensive cables and see if they’ll demo a few so I can see what the differences may be. I think they may only have Audioquests, but differently priced ones, so I should be able to tell something, maybe. I’m staring to get fried out on this subject, but I’m hanging in there. This is not the same fun as buying components. Mike |
skyscraper, As a little entertainment and, I guess, reality reminder, here is the end of your original post... "Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help."It went down quite fast. Now, it is on you to decide when you have had enough fun with all of this. Unusual thing about this thread is that everyone is actually trying to help you. Other threads that mention cables in any sense are not this peaceful. Speaking of cable esoterica and mounting spades in the kitchen vs. factory (how big is the Audioquest factory, by the way?), it is definitely a mystery. I am surprised to read names of all these companies, even only on this thread. Where are they all popping from? How many of them? And their websites seem nicely done and pictures of cables look like everything is actually made with some decent quality and the prices are anything but trivial, even for "cheaper" ones. Their descriptions seem very smart. It appears we need a lifetime or two to pick "the right one". I would feel like a Buridan’s donkey, if I started to be truly invested in it so I am simply waiting for you to make a pick. I forgot why, but at some point I decided something was wrong with Audioquest as a company so I am hoping you will not pick them. Have fun and remember, it is ok to quit once it is not fun anymore. |
Mike, check with albertporter, a member and a dealer of Purist here. He advertises all the time, just type Purist. He would give you a good price. Ask him about both Museus and Poseidon prices. You can also ask him about which one of two he would choose. It's Luminist revision, meaning the latest Purist cables. |
Inna, if the Poseidons are just a little over $1000 maybe that's what I'll do. You haven't steered me wrong yet far as I know. I'll try and track Albert Porter down. Glupson. I'll get this done. My mom used to call me a "grinder" as a kid. I just grind away at things and always ask a lot of questions. I'd just as soon steer away from Audioquest anyway, as I think someone said they're another "made in China" company. I'll see if I verify that. I read the Purist Audio Design Company is homegrown. In itself that's not any guarantee of quality, but Chinese products so often are a guarantee of the opposite. But I'm beating that horse to death. Maybe I'll post a list of all the cable companies I've come across, here and elsewhere when I'm finished with this. It's an incredible number considering that the audiophile market has shrunk so much over the years. And each company has such a variety of cables. Mike |
Albert is nice to talk to. Yes, I bought my Neptune from him. I don't know, though, if he accepts returns for a refund, I didn't ask. He's got half a million or so system and probably heard both Magico and Luxman, but maybe only top models. His assessment of Neptune was exactly as mine, I heard his opinion after I'd bought those cables. And his system is very different from mine and not only in cost. He always uses tube equipment and top of the line Purist cables. |
Story that I heard, don't quite remember who told it, maybe in fact it was Albert telling it here on Audiogon. Over 30 years ago a man came to a place where members of Dallas Audiophile Society were gathering, man with a cable in his hand. At that time most of those guys used top of the like Audioquest. He said - put this cable on your equipment and you will not want to use Audioquest any more. The cable was Purist original Aqueous fluid cable and the man was the founder of Purist Audio Design. So yes this is an authentic company. Oh yeah, they stopped using Audioquest. |
I have nothing against prices of cables being whatever someone wants to pay for them, but selling them does seem like a good business. I wonder how many cables are actually sold yearly. It cannot be too many. To sustain so many manufacturers/sellers, it must be a nice profit margin. I think that is what irritates many opponents. I could not construct a cable myself, short of buying a lamp wire and screwing it in a banana plug, so I have to pay. It is acceptable to me, at least to some extent. |
Anyway, $2k - $3k for speaker cables that will last at least 25 - 30 years is nothing compared to the cost of some MC cartridges that you have to replace every 2-3 years. Now that's robbery. But they are paying those prices, I am not and will not. On the other hand, paying $25k for a great amp that may last a lifetime is perfectly fine with me. Speaking of Purist cables, I heard rumors that Neptune is the most popular model. I can understand that. Performance level is very high even if not the highest, the cost is moderate for higher end systems, and fluid cables have certain qualities that I doubt you can find to the same degree in any other cables, including Purist's top models. |
Ieales, I double-checked, and Audio Advisor does make the no frills in the Rocket 88 too, listed right below the Rocket 44 picture on their site. I don’t think I’ll be getting it anyway, but thanks for checking and finding a potential costly. mistake there. Twoleftears, the Duelunds are added onto the list. Thanks. Inna, I was quoted roughly 10% off retail by your recommended dealer. Not bad, thanks. Your Purist Audio Design Museaus Luminas are now the front runners on my short list, coming into the home stretch. I’m still keeping my eye open for used high end products like pricier Transparents, upper end MITs or Purist Audio,, but you don’t seem to find many of the better very pricey ones used for bargain resale prices, maybe because audiophiles hang on to them. Glupson, I’ve looked at cross sections of some company’s wires and they do look exactly like twisted lamp cord, with the same gauge, and sometimes they don’t even bother to twist it. This might be a potentially semi-profitable business model for you. Unlike straight wires, most politicians and corporate leaders are naturally twisted. I’m also speculating the same persons who own these audiophile cable companies and name the cables, are the same highbrows who own and name their Westminster Dog Show entrants. You have to admit the names are identical. Mike |
ieales I enjoyed reading your thread. I can relate to the 1980's period as this is the point that I discovered home hifi (more like mid-fi) for a teenager. I believe that we all started out with Monster Cable at some point. In the late 90's I discovered Transparent Audio cabling and during the early 2000's settled on the Super MM2 interconnects, speaker cable systems. Happy Listening! |
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Jafant, what is it you liked about the Transparent Audio cabling. Thant is one of the cable manufacturers Magico uses and I'm looking into. Glupson, what speaker wire designs do you prefer, or not? I'd be curious to know since the efficacy of various designs are lost on me. I did read Audioquest has two factories, one in the U.S., the other in the Netherlands. There's a YouTube video showing a tour of their U.S. plant. www.stereophile.com/content/video-tour-audioquest Don't know where they source their wire though, maybe the video mentions that. I haven't watched it through. Inna, that does make sense Mike . |
inna, please don't take offense but the Purist design leaves much to be desired from an electrical perspective. The cable arrangement is electrically equivalent to a network, just with different parameters. I find their bi-wire design specious as it does not address the raison d'etre for bi-wiring. IMO, recommending any cable ex-system is a disservice to the community. Mike, don't be in such a rush! |
Ieales, I'm in no rush. I won't even be demoing any cables I can get a hold of until the Magicos arrive in February. I am trying to get both a more truncated long list and a short list together at his point, until then. Also to research online some of the many cables recommend so far, and pricing new and used. I can't remember if you recommended any pricey cables or not, please don't hesitate to do so if you haven't thus far. I'd be curious what you might like in the $1000 range, if anything. I sent you a PM. Mike |
I'd be curious what you might like in the $1000 range, if anythingI could not presume to assume even in the $10 range. As mentioned, I use Transparent interconnects and have heard excellent sounding systems with Transparent, MIT, Monster and other manufacturers' speaker cables. I've also heard some bloody awful ones with those, AudioQuest, Nordost, etc. I've also heard systems with homebrew cables targeted to amp and speakers that were just gorgeous. BUT, and it's a BUG BUT, I'd only voice an opinion after an in situ listen. I have no knowledge of the A3s, the amp, the room, the table / cartridge and, most of all, you. Cost is no arbiter of performance and many designs are just plain bad from an electrical perspective of getting an undistorted signal to the loudspeaker. They may improve some aspects at the expense of others. Rarely, if ever, will anything be exactly right everywhere on a particular system. Some designs may work exceedingly well with a small subset of amplifiers and speakers, failing miserably on others. Many years ago, I happened on chap receiving a 'lesson' on why the item on demo was 'superior.' He seemed a tad bewildered and off-handedly asked what I thought. I said "I don't think it sounds at all like it was recorded." Annoyed, the salesperson asked snottily "And just how would you know?" "Well, it just so happens I recorded and mixed it" and then showed him my driver's license to counter his expletive. The chap then asked what I would recommend and I told him I would have to learn his peccadilloes and hear his present system before I could possibly even comment. |
Thanks for your explanation ieales. Didn’t mean to put you on the spot if I did. One thousand dollars is only my self imposed budgetary limit. If considerably less expensive cable sounds best in my system, that’s all to the good. If only a $2000 cable cuts the mustard, then I won’t be cutting the mustard. If the cable is system dependent I only need to narrow down the field somehow to find some speaker cables to try out to discover what works best with my system. Then I can attempt to locate someone who not only carries them, but is willing to provide a loaner. That should be no mean feat in and of itself. So far, the only loaners available locally are Audioquest The sole high end local dealer carrying cables locally will special order the the Rocket 88’s and another for me to try out when my Magicos arrive. I also have some Belden cable some kind soul has provided me to be my baseline. If for example you’ve heard MIT’s and Transparent’s sounding good in someone’s system, and they’re a reputable well made brand, I’ll try to locate and demo them. That goes for any other you or anybody might suggest "that are (not) just plain bad from an electrical perspective of getting an undistorted signal to the loudspeaker". I have no knowledge on how to know determine that at all. The Magicos cannot be bi-wired I found out, but sadly that’s about the total extent of my knowledge on what cable designs to avoid. A guy on another thread recommended I try 0 gauge wire of some sort for DIY cables. Who knows about that home brew design? Maybe you, not me. He also suggested trying out that design with automotive jumper cables which might be fun. I can’t track down all the hundred cables that I have probably have on on my list by now. Even researching that many and looking for reviews would be enough to land me in a nut house. There must be some way to narrow the field to affordable contenders from reputable manufacturers. I’ve heard the Transparent brand mentioned a few times so I’ll try to locate a pair to try. I am a little concerned only their close to the bottom of the line cables come in for around my upper price range. Same as with those Inna suggests. Anyway I’m rambling again. Glupson I saw not only the U.S. and Netherlands on a Audioquest box today, but Hong Kong as well. I should have been a detective. Mike |
Mike Two suggestions: If you haven't talk to Mike Bovaird of Suncoast Audio in Sarasota. He is a stocking dealer of both the A3 and your Luxman and has probably tried multiple brands of cable with them as he carries about a half dozen brands. Second, contact member grannyring about the Dueland IC's and SC's he makes and sells. After going through multiple brands in my Main system I have settled on the Dueland Balanced IC's and 12 Gauge speaker cable. Should get you comfortably under your budget or you can save a few dollars more and twist/strip the speaker cable yourself after buying it from Parts Connexion. Adding connectors on the speaker cables is an option. |
Jack. I’ll give Mike a call, probably tomorrow. Thanks for a good tip. I just looked up where Sarasota is in Florida. I’m planning on driving down near Orlando soon to visit family. SunCoast Audio is almost close enough for a side trip for some demos. What’s an extra 2-1/2 hours after you’ve already driven fifteen. I’m going to check out his website right now if he has one. Mike |
Worth the trip as he stocks Magico, Verity, Gryphon speakers among others and just set up a new pair of Avantgarde Duo XD’s in the Main Room. Might want to check this out too. Might be worth another trip in February. https://floridaaudioexpo.com/ |
Individual cables have a higher inductance and lower capacitance. Thinner wire has higher inductance. Inductance has more effect in the lower audio range and capacitance at super sonic frequencies. A non-uniform twist* has varying inductance and capacitance. Given the horrific impedance curves of some loudspeakers, one should do everything possible to minimize inductance. Cotton has a dielectric constant of 17, several multiples of PTFE. Impregnating with oil will lower it somewhat. Cotton is an organic product and thus susceptible to moisture and rot. From an electrical perspective, Duelands are tone controls - designed to color the sound rather than engineered to transmit the signal unimpeded. Ever notice cable makers almost never list LCR and most speakers list a single impedance. It's a shell game to keep the buyer guessing. * When building electronics for the film and music industries, we had our silver plated interconnect custom wound at a precise and specific turns per inch for the best sonics. |
Mike, Lots of great advice and opinions here, I’m also learning through your question. One thing I’ve done - and I’d recommend- is find some SME’s on-line and listen to their opinions as well. Paul McGowan, PS Audio, is extremely easy to listen to, and quickly breaks down his answers for understanding. He has decades in the industry, and is still delivering cutting-edge products. Here’s an example: https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/how-to-match-speakers-and-amps/ I also recommend Audioholics for the same reasons listed - here are their thoughts on cables: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG- |
Rbwnci, thanks for recommending the Paul McGowan videos. I’ve watched two or three already. including the one you provided a link to. I’ll indulge in a few more tonight. They are just as you described, informative, understandable, and easy to listen to not to mention right on point. If I can’t find a video of his on speaker cables and interconnects, I’ll email Mr. McGowan directly and see if I can find out what type cable designs he recommends, and maybe which to avoid. With some luck maybe I could get a video on my question. Stranger things have happened. Jack, I spoke with Mike Bovaird today. He recommended the Audioquest Rocket 88’s and the MIT Evo Level III’s and possibly Shunyata’s in my price range. He said he’s only an hour and a half out of Sanford, FL where I should be heading soon. A side trip for demos may be in order. Thanks for the recommend. Wish I could fly down in February to catch that audio show and soak up some sun. I don’t think I could survive another thirty hour drive round trip. Mike |
Ebm4, the amp selection is in the bag. I recently purchased a new Luxmnan 507uXII integrated. What I am trying to figure out now is what speaker cable designs are good and should be considered for demo and purchase and which are not. And what elements should be successfully addressed in speaker cable design and how,, such as impedance, capacitance, crosstalk, etc, all terms whose meaning I am unfamiliar with and still have to look up. Sorting out what's up with cables is unraveling a tangled mess in the dark. There's everything from well engineered products to snake oil. I am going to read the Galen Gareis articles on cable design today, ieales provided links too, that I haven't gotten around to yet to yet, to help sort this out. Mike |