"The sound is being squeezed through those drivers the same no matter what signal they are fed"
This IMO is not true. I have found that with proper electronics a conventional speaker can put out a huge (to the ceiling 8,10,12ft) presentation or soundstage. With the wrong electronics you will never hear this, the sound will be just barely above the speaker or worse down near the floor! So thanks, but keep your "door panels" and I'll stay married with my "square speakers". O and of the 40 or so speaker manufactures that produce 100k to 250k systems almost none (and except Martin Logan) use electrostats??? hmmmm. |
I've heard only one $100k-$250k speaker, the big Wilsons at Brooks Berdan's shop, and it did sound huge. They are the only Wilsons I've heard that I could live with---too bad I can't afford them!. Brooks knew that life-size image and scale is of particular importance to me and some of his other customers, and, though preferring overall the Wilsons and Vandersteens that he sold, acknowledged to me the inherent advantage panels have in that area, and for us carried Quads and Eminent Technology LFT's. I find the effectively-point source Quads to also have that sound-being-squeezed-through-a-hole sound I find so objectionable, though they're great in other ways. I've heard lots of sub-$100k box speakers, but I've yet to hear one that sounds as life-size as a $5k Magneplanar. Sorry if that pisses you off! |
Mattmiller, a box speaker still needs to be a certain size to do that. Regardless of the electrinics you throw at them, the Magico Mini II is one speaker that was never able to vertically fill a soundstage. The smaller YG's fill more with more power, but they get maxed out height wise very quickly. I think room accounstics and treatment actually help more than the electronics, one you get to having enough power and no impedence mismatching (and don't forget phase - can't believe how many systems are out of phase). |
"I can see how they could make things smaller, but the speaker is the final arbitrator. The sound is being squeezed through those drivers the same no matter what signal they are fed. If a speaker sounds "small", nothing upstream can change that characteristic of the speaker, I don't believe.
Bdp24 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
"06-14-15: Cerrot
Mattmiller, a box speaker still needs to be a certain size to do that. Regardless of the electrinics you throw at them, the Magico Mini II is one speaker that was never able to vertically fill a soundstage."
The only reason you guys don't believe it is because you haven't had the experience of hearing this for yourself. I'll say it again, the effect can be huge. Images can be a lot bigger than the speaker itself. Its the equipment that is mainly responsible for this.
"06-14-15: Mattmiller
"The sound is being squeezed through those drivers the same no matter what signal they are fed"
This IMO is not true. I have found that with proper electronics a conventional speaker can put out a huge (to the ceiling 8,10,12ft) presentation or soundstage. With the wrong electronics you will never hear this, the sound will be just barely above the speaker or worse down near the floor!"
He's not making that up, or exaggerating in any way. He's just heard this for himself. Also, its not the system being out of phase, Cerrot. If you read my posts, I recommend checking phase to people with problems at least as much as anyone else on this web site. I know instantly when a system is out of phase. Also, with larger images, its pretty hard to miss. |
Zd, I did not (mean to) suggest your system is out of phase. Just an alert to others. I agree some what on small sounding speakers but disagree that the speaker is the final abritrator - the room is. We actually don't even hear the spreaker (well, your not supposed to, and thats how it is in my system); You can put the same speakers in rooms with different height ceilings and you will see what I mean; you can put RPG diffusers on the ceilings (and floors if youre careful) and you will hear soundstage height double on many rigs. |
"I've heard lots of sub-$100k box speakers, but I've yet to hear one that sounds as life-size as a $5k Magneplanar. Sorry if that pisses you off!"
It doesn't piss me off. I don't have any of these problems.
Cerrot,
I have yet to understand something you say.
"We actually don't even hear the spreaker (well, your not supposed to, and thats how it is in my system)"
What exactly do you think a speaker is? And does? |
My experiences go too far back and are not current enough other than a few of the newer Martin Logan designs AND a pair of Quad 2905s that a friend owns. On a further note I was recently talking to my dealer/friend who has owned Soundlabs and been a fan of the virtues of planer/electrostatics while realizing their shortcomings and attends many shows. He recently got back from Newport and was absolutely enthralled with the Roger Sanders designed ESL w/integrated woofer that he claimed was virtually seemless with the panels. If that is the case it would certainly be one to investigate further. I've noted it with a recent ML, can't remember the model # but about 15K a pair, certainly an improvement over past efforts but still less than perfect to my ears, YMMV.
The points made in the early posts by Onhwy61, Mapman and Marty should be noted. There is PLENTY of variation between the Planer/Electrostatic/Ribbon (Apogee) designs that I've listened to over the years that things can't be simply categorized or explained in words other than to listen first hand, there is no other way around this. The discussion of differences between Planer/Electrostatic/Ribbons could fill a book, adding dynamic speakers into the comparison equation, volumes.
I certainly would agree on one point "that isn't talked about enough", panels (Maggies in particular) can provide a lifelike image size that, to me, can draw you in. Now to their drawbacks. It's subjective and only you can determine what works. Brownsfan's example as a longtime Maggie owner that went to a dynamic speaker is telling about the subjectivity among listeners. Great comments above to give better insight. |
Cone speakers I've owned-Klh,JBL L65,Mirage M3si, Vandersteen 2 c,Rogers LS 3/5a,Mission 770,Tannoy Arden, Merlin MMxe,Ref 3a Grand veena, Vr4,Meadowlark Heron I,and more.
Planars- Mag.sma, Acoustat3 medallion,Martin logan sequel, CLS 2Z,Quad 63, stacked Quad 57,Acoustat monitor X with direct drive servo amps.
I've always gone back to planar speakers .
I like the smack of cones, but multi drivers usually start to wear on me.
I much prefer a more seamless presentation, which is what planars give me. |
Zd - you do not hear any sound coming from my speakers in my room. The soundstage just floats.
If a rig is set up properly, you should not hear any music coming from the speakers (sitting in the sweet spot). They need to dissappear. If they don't, youre not done. |
"06-21-15: Cerrot
Zd - you do not hear any sound coming from my speakers in my room."
I know. I told you not to buy anything until your country gets electricity. What did you expect? |
I've had both planers and box speakers. If you want really huge sound on a "budget," you might want to replicate one system that I had years ago.
1. Accustat 4's. I paid $1000.00 for the mint pair that I no longer own.
2. Two of Van Alstine's 250 watt stereo amps with his crossover devise. This gives you 800 wpc.
3. A good tube preamp & phono stage.
I'm only suggesting this system if "looks" aren't an issue for you. But as we all know ... with the lights out, they all look the same.
Take the grill cloths completely off of the speakers.They will look like 4x5 industrial radiators.
After hooking them up, play them as loudly as you want. They will fill the entire room and the depth is such that the entire back wall will fall down. Detail, imaging, tonality is amazing.
I still miss that system in a lot of ways. |
Integration of the bass drivers with the Stat panels is the most difficult process manufactures face.The Australian Whise HA1500/Nakamichi Dragon is the only affordable (under $20k) Stat that I have heard that has integrated this well.
Fully active with separate 100 watt class A/B Power Amps for each of the Panels and Bass drivers they produce a seamless musical experience with massive soundstage.
I have heard many very high qualty dynamic floorstanders, but none (up to $25k) have reproduced the same seamless overall quality of the Whise HA1500.
Unfortunately it is difficult to find as there are only around 170 pair in captivity. |
Zd542. I sense your frustration. No worries. There are alot of us here on agon with great systems that are set up properly that can guide you along your journey to better sound. Remember, those speakers frame the sound stage. The sounds comes from between them and along side them, but not from them. Feel free to PM me. I enjoy helping those less fortunate than myself.
Happy Listening! |
I'm not falling into your trap Cerrot. lol. You know I use time and phase correct speakers. And I know what you do to them. My Vandersteen's are not going to be the victims like those poor Thiels were. Better luck next time, and happy listening to you too. |
Cerrot...." (and don't forget phase - can't believe how many systems are out of phase)".
I'm not sure what music you listen to, But for me PHASE is laughable. Because all the vinyl I listen too was recorded back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's do you think everything was recorded in the same phase?? It wasn't, I assure you! Phase means nothing, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it that's for sure. |
"I'm not sure what music you listen to, But for me PHASE is laughable. Because all the vinyl I listen too was recorded back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's do you think everything was recorded in the same phase?? It wasn't, I assure you! Phase means nothing, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it that's for sure."
There are different ways that a system can be in or out of phase. What you're talking about is absolute phase. The effect is usually small and very difficult to hear. Also, its worth noting that recordings are still not consistent when it comes to phase. The same thing is still going on today, and that's why you see so many preamps and sources with a phase invert switch.
Absolute phase is not the same as phase correct speakers, like my Vandersteens (Or the Thiel's that Cerrot and his friends destroyed). With phase correct speakers, all of the drivers move back and forth at the same time. The effect is much more audible. You can also have a situation where one speaker is out of phase with the other. (The entire speaker as a whole, and not just the drivers.). The effect is huge and is almost always due to someone connecting the speaker cables in error. If your speakers sound like Bose, this is probably why. |
Box speakers are more accurate in the bass and highs. |
When my system isn't knocking my sox off, I check the phase and sure enough, house keeper cleaned the buttons on the remote again. ts like a speaker is wired backwards (lol). Sucks the life out of the presentation. |
07-05-15: Cerrot
When my system isn't knocking my sox off, I check the phase and sure enough, house keeper cleaned the buttons on the remote again. ts like a speaker is wired backwards (lol). Sucks the life out of the presentation. Presumably the switch on your remote just affects absolute phase, aka polarity, which ZD correctly referred to just above. If changing that setting results in major changes as you described above, and not just on those few recordings which have been engineered with "purist" techniques (i.e., just two or three mics, and minimal post processing), then what is most likely occurring is that your preamp itself sounds different in the two settings. Keep in mind that when you change that setting you are not only changing the polarity with which the recording is played back, you are also changing the circuit configuration within the preamp. BTW, although I haven't read through a lot of this thread, I second all of the comments in ZD's most recent post. I would just add to it that for a speaker to be time and phase coherent (or simply time coherent, which automatically implies phase coherence as well), in addition to the drivers moving in the same direction at any given time the crossover (if there is one) has to be first order (i.e., 6 db/octave). Among box-type speakers which have a crossover, only those made by Vandersteen, Thiel, and Green Mountain Audio, and perhaps a small handful of others, meet those criteria. Regards, -- Al |
Crossovers have a sound, and can degrade the music no matter how complex or simple, crossovers kill.
Also, multi driver systems always seem to sound like multi drivers to my ears.
I have listened to a few cone speakers that came close to stats, such as Verity Audio, and the Sonus Faber Stradivari.
Also the old Tannoys had a similar coherent point source sound, but the price was not as fast or clear as a stat.
I used to have Vandersteen 2ci way back and a pair of Quad 63 I used to switch between.
The Quads were better, but not by a great margin.
The Vandersteen five that I heard were very good with much better bass than any stat in my experience, except for a pair of Ultimate One Soundlabs that I've also had the pleasure of listening to at an audiophiles home.
It was a different kind of bass, but very full none the less.
The Soundlabs were the best stats I've heard and one of the best speakers I've heard. |
Back to the original question, I own Maggie 3.6s with one Maggie DWM bass panel.
I thought I was getting bored so I traded an old amp for a pair of Thiel cs 3.6's.
After about a month, the Maggies are back in place - just more alive and room filling than the Thiels.
By the way, the bass panel adds a lot. I am looking for a used second one. |
Shameless plug:
ES/planar fans, I have my STAX SR84 Electret phones up for sale here if anyone is interested. You won't find that planar ES sound for any less than these anywhere. Plus they work well with most any amp.
Why am I selling these you ask? I am in process of clearing out some of my older currently unused gear that has value. If they don't sell I'll probably set up yet another system in the house with them someday, maybe running off a SET amp.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/over-ear-stax-sr84-lambda-pro-jr-earspeakers-and-15-foot-extension-cable-2015-07-03-headphones-21136-reisterstown-md
BTW the other STAX up for sale on this site currently are all 10X plus what I am asking for these. These sold for $300 back in 1998 or so. I also have a long STAX extension cable included to make listening possible from most anywhere in a room. |
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