A while back had a JC3+ and was not impressed was actually a bit noisy. Try and audition a Gold Note Ph-10 which is very versatile and can accept either a MC or MM cartridge and 2 tonearms.
Phonostage/preamp recommendations. Parasound JC3 Jr.?
Hello all. After searching for hours and not quite understanding if I’m processing the information right, I figured I would sign up ask the question directly with my specific information. Obviously new to home audio so please go easy. I bought a "new to me" Sota Sapphire with a Sumiko Premier FT-3 tonearm and Dynavector DV-10X5 cart. I leveled it out and set up the arm. Hooked it up to my Denon DRA-800H receiver (which says it has a phono input) paired up with Polk RTI A3 bookshelves. Everything "works" fine. Highs are clean and crisp. No funky sounds or anything like that so overall success. My issue comes with the overall loudness of the playback (having to almost max the volume at 70 before achieving listenable levels) and the lack of bass and overall dimension in the music. Not having a sub and understanding they are only bookshelves I don’t expect the world of them but I was thinking it should sound better than my bluetooth Bose Soundlink? Being an MC cart the person a bought the turntable from suggested I could benefit from running a dedicated phonostage before the Denon. The Parasound Jr. looks good giving the option to switch from MM to MC and seems to have a good fanbase. Am I on the right track to a decent starter system? Any recommendations? looking for something I won’t have to upgrade for a while, but not looking to sell my bike either. Please help school me on this rabbit hole I’ve ventured into! Also not opposed to tubes, but I’m sure that’s a whole other world I shouldn’t be exploring quite yet. Thanks in advance.
Recap on what I have:
Sota Sapphire
Sumiko Premier FT-3
Dynavector DV-10X5
Denon DRA-800h
Polk RTI A3
Recap on what I have:
Sota Sapphire
Sumiko Premier FT-3
Dynavector DV-10X5
Denon DRA-800h
Polk RTI A3
37 responses Add your response
rsf507: Thanks for the response! Just looked up the Ph-10 and have to say it looks very versatile indeed. It also looks fairly user friendly in that everything would be controlled through the front panel and the single knob. Is that correct? Also had no idea that some of my older records may not use RIAA mastering so it's both good that I'm now aware and that and that it has an option for RIAA/Decca/Columbia. Unfortunately the only "audio store" I have know of around me is the big yellow tag store so I don't think I will have any opportunities to audition any hi end equipment. I'm going to be pretty reliant on reviews and others with first hand knowledge for what I end up going with. With something like the Ph-10 or any other preamp device I assume I would hook it into a aux input on my receiver instead of the phono input? Something like this looks like it could also stay put should i decide to upgrade amp and speakers later on down the road as well? |
Your receiver is designed to accept a MM phono cartridge and has insufficient gain for a MC cartridge. You can either get a step up transformer or a stand alone phono pre that has sufficient gain for your cartridge (assuming you want to keep the cartridge). Search the forums for advice on phono preamps if you wish to go that route. Just remember that if you get an outboard phono pre you will need to connect it to your receiver using auxiliary inputs and not the phono inputs. Others may chime in with their recommendations. |
@Tommy I believe there are over a dozen reviews on-line on the PH10 look on Positive Feedback they have 3 alone all glowing not that I relied on any reviews myself but they do give you a starting point. Yes into your aux rca's and it should be a keeper as you change receivers or go full in with separate pre and amp or an integrated. |
I owned a GoldNote PH-10 for quite awhile. Excellent unit, top notch...until I tried the JC3 Junior. The Junior had an absolute black background, (NO noise at all) and the music just exploded from it. Dynamic with a finesse that's hard to beat. I have a lot of different tables and carts and tried quite a few. Needless to say, I sold the PH-10 and kept the Junior. Couldn't be happier. IMHO, both are excellent units. |
Some interesting feedback here. In regards to the SUT, I’m not sure I would want to go that route based on my very limited knowledge on how they work (emphasis on limited) I would want something more versatile. Example I may or may not want an MM cart in the future or a different MC and I would want to buy something now that can accommodate a fairly large variety of options vs something that’s more specific to one type of setup. Buy once cry once if you will...with limitations of course. Very interesting on the two posts regarding the Ph-10 vs Jc3 Jr. Two different opinions on opposite sides regarding noise. mofimadness: Is there anything in particular that was lacking with the Ph-10? Or you just feel the Parasound was a notch above overall? I kind of like being able to switch settings from the front without pulling it off the shelf. Having some Decca London records from the 50s and 60s (mostly classical pieces) I don’t know if having those options on the fly would be a game changer or more of a gimmick. Just thinking out loud. Also any specific thoughts on low bass range from the two? Any other thoughts out there? |
They are both excellent units. The other poster had a JC3+, not a Junior. The JC3+ should have been even better? I had an original JC3 years ago and it was the closest I have ever come to my favorite phono stage ever...the Vendetta Research, (same designer, John Curl). I would assume the JC3+ is better, but I couldn't afford it, so I opted for the Junior. I don't have any LPs that would benefit from the different RIAA curves, so that wasn't an issue. Once you initially set up the Junior, you won't need to change the settings, so that shouldn't be an issue either. Again, you couldn't go wrong buying either one... |
If you can swing around 2K to 3K you might want to try the Manley Chinook or the Manley Chinook SE MKII both great phono pre's there is a used one here on AGon for $1,950.00 that would last you even if you upgrade the TT and cartridge, very well made and versatile and able to run MM or MC cartridges. |
Just because a cartridge lists that it should have a gain of 50 you can always try it at 60 or 64 it's what sounds best to your ears that matters, the same goes for the load if the cartridge says 100ohms you can still try 150, 200, or even higher it depends on your speakers and how it sounds to you.The higher the load the clearer the mids and highs will be but you will lose some low end, you just need to experiment with the settings until you get to what sounds good to you, everyone's ears are different. |
Alucard19: Actually although I've read a lot of good things about the Chinook on this forums articles and elsewhere, it is about double my price point. The other 2 options suggested in this post are also more than I was hoping to spend but maybe justifiable if I can find a good deal. I do absolutly agree though that once I do decide on a new stage that numbers alone won't get me where I need to be. There will be a lot of playing involved! |
Parasound seems to be getting a lot of love overall here. That Zphono XRM looks interesting at the price point. Especially for my setup I currently have. Later on I would like to upgrade to some nice floor tower speakers and a better amp. Truthfully I really want to go tubes when the big upgrade happens. No particular reason I guess I really just like the old school stuff. Really love the look of Decware for the endgame system and love that it's made in the USA. But for the time being at $600 it would seem I would be getting a very good product from a reputable company that I would probably be very happy with for a few years until funds become available again. I did a search last night for real audio shops in CT and found one on the Berlin Trnpk that's not too far from me. The Audio Store? Anyone ever heard of it or anyone form CT that might know of a good place to go listen before you buy? |
Personally, to simply solve LP volume, tomorrow in time for the holidays, and make big changes later, I would change to a MM cartridge, powerful output, this one is 4.5mv. https://www.crutchfield.com/S-Myu1lZdgw0w/p_057VM520EB/Audio-Technica-VM520EB.html?XVINQ=GLX&awkw=374031561037&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=194311404237&awdv=c&awug=9003512&gclid=CjwKCAiAluLvBRASEiwAAbX3GUWE3pfOsKffbKGTNY-oG7J6q_OLbWhNKOFK1qj40Fa4qvuvqfyvKhoCiAsQAvD_BwE Your Moving Coil is high output as noted, for a moving coil, however, it's 2.5v is not enough for your Denon, your current problem. Any new high output MM cartridge will be your base of comparison in the future. I have supposedly better, both Shure and Audio Terchnica micro ridge stylus/cartridges, I prefer the Shure 97xe, elliptical like the one above. Shure is out of the cartridge/stylus business, so the price went up, which is why I did a quickie search, the Audio Technica came up. Later, I would encourage a new amp, and a new preamp. Using MM rather than MC will both widen the preamp choices, and lower the cost, new or used. I would also recommend you try tube preamp with good MM phono first, and then, depending on your speaker's efficiency (high please) try tube amp. ..................................... If you take the 'change only phono cartridge now' approach, I am sure members here can suggest alternates to the one I quickly found (never heard it, but like other AT models I have owned). Best of luck, |
Oh yeah, future preamp/amp/integrated changes: modern features, like remote volume, and, remote balance are high on my preamp or integrated amp requirements. Finding remote balance, even if a unit has it, is very hard, often not mentioned, remotes often not pictured, feature often buried in menu with no dedicated button. I use this Chase Remote Line Contoller for for some equipment, other equipment direct to the tube integrated. Dedicated buttons for remote volume and remote balance. I just bought a 3rd one. It is dead silent, no one has ever been able to tell if it is in or out. this one, description says new in box. my 3: they are trouble free. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chase-Technologies-RLC-1-Remote-Line-Controller/303296959112?hash=item469de85288:g:kMwAAOSw2addirlA I also like McIntosh MODE switch, which includes Mono to play Mono LPs, as well as Stereo Reverse, L to l+r; r to l+r, l to r, r to l. I use it to fine tune my system/speakers, and as a final test of LP anti-skating. |
some remote volume and remote balance answers here https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/remote-balance-control-on-tube-integrated-amp I decided to stick with my Chase for remote volume and remote balance combined with my old tube tuner/preamp mx110z which has my beloved MODE switch. |
Well since I already had the zphono in my cart ready to buy that certainly throws a monkey wrench into things....Besides, I don't really want a quicky bandaid to my issue. Having a decent preamp would not only fix my current issue, but also open doors for future exploration with other cartridges. Although if I did go the cartridge route. How would I find the RIGHT cartridge? |
No offense to the posters or yourself but your looking at spending a decent amount of cash for used phono preamp when you could secure a nice integrated amp with a built in phono preamp that would be step up in sound quality and also with a built in phono preamp as well...Rogue Audio, Musical Fidelity, Arcam are just a few of the brands out there. The Dynavector Cartridge is a fantastic Cartridge for the money and a MM phono is all you need as it’s a HO Mc Cartridge....anyone suggesting a step up is giving you the wrong advice and spending $800 plus for a dedicated phono preamp based on your current set up is also wrong advice. There are plenty of good choices out there used in a $3-500 range for a phono preamp that supports both MM & MC Cartridges that would be a improvement over your built in phono in the Denon. You need to remember the Denon is built to a price point so you decide where to spend your money. Quality used integrated with built phono for less than 1k used or a more suitable alternative phono preamp based on your current set up and spend $300-500 or even better by a Emotiva XPS-1 for $199 and call it a day. |
You may NEVER find the right cartridge, but you will have a lot of fun along the way. I am advocating MM over MC, and a new cartridge, i.e. new stylus, and HIGH output, for NOW. Not only solves LP sound right away, it lets you take more time and do more research before you move to new, more important, mpore expensive equipment. And, more time to carefully asses you desired features. The point of a basic elliptical, high output, is it will be your base for future comparison to future cartridges (returns accepted!). Keep the existing MC, High Output 2.5mv, it may sound fantastic on eventual new equipment with no need for MC pre-pre stage. Ortofom 2M Red produces 5.5mv, $100. https://www.amazon.com/Ortofon-Red-Moving-Magnet-Cartridge/dp/B000WMCEKK/ref=sxin_0_ac_d_pm?ac_md=3-1-QmV0d2VlbiAkNTAgYW5kICQyMDA%3D-ac_d_pm&keywords=phono+cartridge&pd_rd_i=B000WMCEKK&pd_rd_r=c69f59d7-1390-4f4d-8e48-8cbd1c56731a&pd_rd_w=JXnwC&pd_rd_wg=MR0Jx&pf_rd_p=aba5dc0d-7593-4752-a14d-357ecc5c98cc&pf_rd_r=VQHY3XZSAGASYAE5D0QM&psc=1&qid=1576685064 excerpt about 2M Red The Absolute Sound Product of the Year and Editors' Choice Award-Winning Ortofon 2M Red Sets the Standard for Entry-Level High-End Moving-Magnet Phono Cartridges The Ortofon 2M Red MM phono cartridge is as good as audiophile-grade moving-magnet types come at its price point. It features Ortofon's trademark split pole pins, an invention which enables moving-magnet cartridges to have flat frequency response, just like a moving-coil cartridge. 2M Red also uses an improved engine, which provides an increased output of 5.5mV. The 2M Red features a tipped elliptical diamond , engineered for precise and accurate retrieval of the information in the record groove. The Japanese company's 2M series was developed in conjunction with Danish designer Møller Jensen Design. Inspired by the facets of a diamond, whose contours gracefully trace the grooves on a record's surface, 2M 's handsome elegance establishes a great combination of form and functionality. Ortofon' s philosophy is to make cartridges which reproduce the record grooves as accurately as possible, without coloring the sound. The 2M series design has been optimized for ease of mounting and their weight and size fit virtually any current turntable. “[This] is one sophisticated and musical cartridge—for the price of a nice dinner for two.” —Neil Gader, The Absolute Sound , Editors’ Choice Award “If you’re looking for a high-value cartridge…the 2M Red is an excellent place to start.” — Stereophile , Class D Recommended Component “It’s worth experimenting, because at best this is one of the most detailed cartridges we’ve come across at this kind of price.” — Tech Radar “The midrange is full and expressive, handling vocals with sensitivity and warmth. The bass and treble interact well here, and while we'd like more authority from the bass, You need time to consider whether you will try Tubes, preamp or amp also, another reason to get listening right away with a basic elliptical. |
Example I may or may not want an MM cart in the future or a different MC and I would want to buy something now that can accommodate a fairly large variety of options vs something that’s more specific to one type of setup. Buy once cry once if you will...with limitations of course.@tommyd902688 FWIW Dept.: SUTs are not all that specific. They will require loading at the output, depending on the cartridge used and the SUT in use. Jensen transformers makes some of the best for this purpose and also have a pdf on the correct loading for the transformer (assuming also that the input of your Denon is the 47K standard). However I would have expected a cartridge with 2.5mV to be no worries in this situation- and since you are experiencing weak bass and low output that suggests to me that something is amiss rather than you're actually needing a different phono preamp. I would investigate your tone arm setup first to make sure it really is right! For example the arm height can mess with the bass as can the platter pad itself. I have also seen damaged cartridges where they had low output and no bass because the magnetic motor has been damaged, probably from being dropped. I would exhaust these issues first before buying another phono preamp- if you did buy one and you still had the same problem I'm guessing you would not be happy about that. |
Atmasphere: I purchased the zphono xrm yesterday. I was going to update everyone tonight after hooking it up. If your theory is correct and the tonearm is not set properly, or the cartridge is dameged then I would not exactly be pleased. I could always return the zphono at that point. I will look into the height of the tonearm tonight when I get home from work and update you. Being pretty new to this I will admit I hadn't even thought to check that. The person I bought the table from had It set and I suppose I just figured it was good. |
So the tonearm is indeed at the correct height and everything is hooked up. There is a major improvement already. I played around with some of the settings and so far I've run into some interesting findings... 1. I tend to like the sound with the mono switch on. Regardless of the record being stereo or mono. 2. The MC section of the pre amp has 50db gain or 60db. I'm having trouble finding a balance. Recommendation from dynavector is 50db with 1000h ohmz load. So that's where I started. It seemed fine. And playing with the knob up or down didn't improve the sound, and actually degraded in most cases. Then I decided to switch to 60db gain and see what I get. What a difference! It seemed great when I turned it down to around 150-300 ohmz. But in some of the high lyric sections I got some breaking up and crackling. So it seems Im between ok sound at 50db with the impedence all the way up, or pretty good sound at 60db with it cranked all the way down and the occasional crackle pop. What do you guys make of that? Anyway thanks to all for your input and suggestions. It is playing much better overall regardless of which setting I put it on. And I no longer feel like I made a terrible mistake buying the Sota! I'm going to be spending a lot of time surfing these pages learning as much as I can through my hifi journey. Thank you all agian. |
The Pro-Ject Tube box DS2 (I think that’s the name) is a really cool piece for $699. All tube design (which means you can roll and adjust sound) and all setting adjustments are done with dials on the front panel: might be exactly the user-friendly device you’re looking for. It also has two inputs so can act as a pre-amp (which would increase your enjoyment a whole lot) if you have another line source. Maybe give it a look. |
2. The MC section of the pre amp has 50db gain or 60db. I'm having trouble finding a balance. Recommendation from dynavector is 50db with 1000h ohmz load. So that's where I started. It seemed fine. And playing with the knob up or down didn't improve the sound, and actually degraded in most cases.It sounds like the 50dB setting is the correct one. I would try the loading as high as you can- 47K (which is the standard for phono inputs) if possible and work your way down from there if needed. Here is an article about what the loading is about:http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html There is more to it than that of course... BTW I would check the tone are settings just to make sure everything else is right. The height is one thing but tracking force is another, as well as something called 'overhang' which can be checked with a turntable protractor (which should not be expensive). |
I switched to MM input at 50db today and all I can say is wow. Everything is so clear and I'm finally getting some bass notes out of the speakers. I can only imagine if I had a better amp and speakers what it could sound like. Atmasphere: I'm going to look into the forum and see what I can find for setting the tracking force. And also look online for a turntable protractor to check the things you suggested. Even though it's sounding 1000 times better doesn't mean I can stop there! I will post back once I get the protractor and let you know. |
For tracking force you can buy an Ortofon DS-3 for around $80.00 to $100.00 on e-bay it works great and is very easy to use.Just look up online what the tracking force is for your particular cartridge then set the stylus down on the DS-3 turn it on and adjust the tonearm until you get the correct setting.A lot of cartridges are in the 1.75 to 2.25 range. |
@rsf507 I'm surprised the hear your impression of the JC3+ as being noisy. I've owned both the JC3 and the JC3+ and both of them have been dead quiet. Their sound is the best I've heard (so far). I've tried much more expensive units and have not felt they were even close to as good as the JC3+. Perhaps yours had something wrong with it? I've not heard the JC3 Junior but I imagine it should be pretty darn good based on the other JC3 models I've owned. |