Odds on bet is that I have a significantly higher IQ than you do.Are you serious?
How do you call someone using this way of speaking in a discussion?
I will not say the word myself.....
Perfect Path "Solutions" (PPS) eMat
Does anyone know the intricate details of how these most current PPS eMats differ, aside by appearance, from the previous two generations of PPT eMat & eMat+?.any insight will be greatly appreciated...
Thanx! Mooncrikit
Thanx! Mooncrikit
329 responses Add your response
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You tried Mijostyn, but we are working in an alternate universe where a top system people have heard are based around 20 year old rather average even at the time Legacy speakers complete with some really bad integration of the two tweeters. Fleschler didn't you have at one point those speakers (or close) in a $150K room as your system? I really think you people need to get out more. |
Then there’s my wife. She hardly ever will sit still and listen. But she hears just fine. She has no idea what I am doing, or if I am doing anything at all. Oblivious. Yet it is amazing how many times I do something and she immediately notices and asks what did I do this time??! You have a nice wife MC. Not everyone’s wife will lie and stroke your ego like that. Given you have 1 listening chair, I am guessing you make her sit and listen ... soooooo ..... It looks like your speakers are pretty wide compared to the seating distance? The Tektons have a much more even response off axis than your old speakers. I would consider moving them inwards a bit. At that spacing if it is what it looks like, you may have too much of a headphone effect, with some image loss from the close wall placement. I am sure it is pleasant as again, they do have good off axis response, but they may be better a bit farther from the wall, maybe with some diffusion. |
" The problem many people do not or refuse to understand is that just because they hear a difference does not mean that there actually is one. What you think you hear is subject to the way you are thinking and feeling at the time " The 1st time I decided to try an aftermarket power cord I started off with a couple of under $100 ones Signal Cable, PS Audio. Given comments from prior purchasers of the particular models I bought I expected to hear a difference after putting them into the system and letting them run in a bit. I heard no improvement versus the one supplied with the amp. None despite my expectation that I would given user reviews. I purchased an Audio Art power cable after reading some comments, went in with a "we’ll see" attitude given my initial experience and it was a noticeable improvement right after turning the amp on. When I decided to see if Shunyata Venom Defenders would have any further impact to the SQ in my 2 systems besides those I already achieved using a Blue Circle BC600 power conditioner in my main system and a Blue Circle Puck power conditioner in my second system I wasn’t sure what to expect given the $250 price for each and their small size. It was quite obvious that it added SQ in both instances as I plugged them into available outlets as the music was already playing. Same thing when I inserted cable elevators for my speaker cables I listened as I was already playing music. Long story with a few examples, but for me anyway hearing the impact/no impact of tweaks is no different than hearing the "positive/negative" of a piece of equipment , expectation bias doesn't over ride what I hear |
The problem many people do not or refuse to understand is that just because they hear a difference does not mean that there actually is one.Is this a repeating groove bump in a vinyl called mijostyn brain? Your accusation make sense for a SINGULAR hearing test about ONE tweak..... How do you explain by being hallucinatory, or by placebo effect, 2 years of CONTINUOUS improvements, with trials and errors in experiments with acoustical devices, electrical grid devices and mechanical devices listend to by me and my family? Collective audio hallucination or real improvements? What occam razor may say if you are able to think? Do you really think that man can deceive not only itself but others also through a set of experiments giving incremental weekly positive improvement after another culminating in a complete transformation of his audio system for 2 years ? I dont give a damn about your lack of logical thinking and your unreasonnable use of the placebo excuse to justify your own passive attitude towards listening experiments and your faith in ready made costly consumerist solutions, BUT i dont like your supposition about people abusing others....Especially when someone boast about a multi thousand equalizer toy/tool for the solution to acoustical problems...... This is not placebo this is ignorance....Even about what an equalizer can usefully really do or cannot do at all..... «Most skeptics deceive themselves "believing" they doubt»-Groucho Marx logician |
Welcome artemus_5 to the club! You make a great point about sugar and salt- and not being curious because, know-it-all. But unfortunately people like mijostyn are so deep in denial they refuse to acknowledge even the most compelling evidence. The comments from impartial listeners are right there on my System page. One of them, Deborah, she was listening with her eyes closed when I silently made a change. She heard it immediately, opened her eyes to see what was going on. She had absolutely no idea or expectation of anything, just sitting there listening, and she heard it. Read the comments! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 mijostyn knows this. It's been posted before. For sure he knows it. So do all the others. Whole slew of stories just like this- with Cones, cable elevators, the circuit breaker trick, on and on. The only thing I can say to them is, it's not just a river in Egypt! Then there's my wife. She hardly ever will sit still and listen. But she hears just fine. She has no idea what I am doing, or if I am doing anything at all. Oblivious. Yet it is amazing how many times I do something and she immediately notices and asks what did I do this time??! A couple times it was Mats. Opened speakers up, pasted crossover caps and all the wires with TC. Put Mats around the crossover, taped along internal wires, and wrapped around speaker magnets. Altogether it was less than one Mat and some tiny fraction of a ml of TC to treat both speakers, but she heard it and was stunned. Eyes wide open. These are not made up stories. The few of us who know, we know. This technology brings a sense of realism simply not achievable any other way. I know. Heard plenty of systems that cost so much, mine would not even cover the sales tax on theirs. They have some good things going, to be sure. Not saying mine's perfect. All kinds of faults all over the place. But eerie sense of realism just ain't one of em. Can't touch that. Thanks to this stuff. That deniers want to say doesn't even exist. If you are ever in the Seattle area and can make time, you are always welcome to come hear for yourself. The longer you wait the better it gets but then after you leave it gets better still so don't let that put you off! ;) |
@oregonpapa I wish I could hear your & Miller's systems. I have the PPS installed in my system and know the benefit. The Core power 1800 was another step up. I just got it. I learned the beauty of footers and power when I started experimenting with the footers under my CDP. Then an Oyaide R1 outlet. My jaw dropped upon adding each one. I was a skeptic also but I was also curious. This is the thing that many detractors face. They have very little curiosity. But curiosity isn't necessary when you know it all. |
@mijostyn Your argument seems to be the idea that your mind is unable to accurately translate your senses. Therefore, this "truth" applies to all of us. The only question is , Why should anyone believe you since you say your senses are not accurate? Isn't this the definition of non sense? Do Sugar & salt taste the same because our senses are so easily fooled? Really? |
fleschler ... As soon as the virus is under control, you'll have to come up for a listening session. The system is WAY beyond where it was the last time you heard it. Truly a magic music machine. Frank |
The problem many people do not or refuse to understand is that just because they hear a difference does not mean that there actually is one. What you think you hear is subject to the way you are thinking and feeling at the time which is subject to a plethora of influences and how you feel about them. It is pitifully easy to influence human minds. Ask any ventriloquist or magician. As I have said before If a tweak makes you feel your system sounds better is that just as good as an actual improvement in sound after all, sounding better is sounding better. My personal feeling on that is no because in my case at least the sounding better part does not last and in some instances has made thongs worse. I also hate people/companies purposely taking advantage of this frailty of the human mind. @cal3713 , There is no accounting for the way the human mind works. But there is one feature of power cords that might under the right circumstances affect sound and that is shielding. Not on the unit itself but on surrounding units, transferring noise to line level cables very near by. Because of that potential I make my cables out of shielded three conductor 12 gauge wire only using Marinco plugs. Do I know for a fact they improve my system? Absolutely not. But they have a good reason for being there, it makes me feel better and I save a lot of money over buying what may actually be inferior cables. Problem is you don't know what you have until you cut them open and if you don't think a company will run junk wire through a fancy casing you need to answer all your emails. You know anyone who is going to cut open an $3000 power cord? |
Why I spent a small fortune on my listening room and Hallograph/Synergistic Research tweeks for acoustics, Townshend, Stillpoints and Synergistic Research for electronic vibration control: - No front wall reflection control Use SR HFTs, 24 on four walls and ceiling - No first reflection control same answer with side wall acoustic foam damping and suspended acoustical foam damping Bass traps built into the walls (activated charcoal panels) - The reflections off the glass table - No furniture, one large couch - The reflective equipment between the speakers - Nothing located between speakers, equipment is off to the side - The lack of symmetry due to the windows on one side, and the wall/records on the other side-No openings, 2 Swinging Doors 17" thick same construction as walls, perfectly symmetrical design - The blinds (that will rattle) - None - The reflective pictures on the wall - None - The reflective (curio/china cabinet?) in one corner behind the speakers, but not the other - None The Hallographs focus the sound of the Legacy Focuses, open the soundstage and help imaging, combined with SR HFTs, improve the functionality of the speakers. I have head Frank's system and it is substantially superior to 95% of audio show setups I've heard. I've heard the best but it was priced at $1+ million. It was capable of projecting the best imaging, tonality, dynamics and soundstage in a 70' X 30' X 18' room (approximate) with my music (LP&CD). Amazing. I have captured much of that room as has Frank in our systems; however, what I lack is the physically "realness" of the recording event. Which is why I intend to upgrade to a much more costly speaker. The Signature IIIs and Focuses are a huge bargain, basically built to a price point at the time which was affordable (used-a steal). Setting up the acoustics and vibration control pays huge dividends but is a MAJOR hassle, not as easy as paying your money and buying the equipment. I also hate mounting and setting up a cartridge but the results are inestimable. |
On buying cassette tape ... No need to buy new, expensive tapes. Try the thrift stores. They usually carry used premium tapes that someone donated. the usual cost is between 25 and 50 cents. Just check the mechanics with a pencil (you know the trick). Then use a bulk tape eraser (Radio Shack) to erase the old information. Before you erase it though, try playing it in your cassette deck. I've found that once in a while you can find some really well-recorded music on those used tapes, most likely recorded by someone who really cared. Frank. |
This cassette talk is reminding me of my pre-audiophile pure music loving days. I had a bunch of phish shows on tape and used to carry the choice sets around in my Chevy s10. And when I was young I had one of those pioneer multi-cassette changers because... I'm not really sure why. I guess it looked cool. I also lusted quite strongly after the Nak my father's friend had in his restaurant. It was one of those that flipped the cassette for you. Such an amazing mechanism really. |
My preferred medium would be cassettes made from records (singles, preferably). Well, they are, when it comes to realistic sound, probably two steps ahead of short wave radio, but it is ok to like the ugly duckling at times. Love has no eyes. Or ears, in this case. Ampex > TDK > Maxell. SA before 1988 or so. Mark Levinson? What Mark Levinson? Unless it is Becker Mexico Electronic Diversity, it has to be Blaupunkt Mannheim 24. Now, you could have an older version of Mexico with tubes, if that floats your boat. Becker Mexico tube radio for Mercedes 190 SL | Königs Klassik-Radios (koenigs-klassik-radios.de) Here, for all the tube lovers of Audiogon. Check all seven of them. Tube rolling anyone? Behind the White Wheel: Becker Mexico Alive As I said, Mark Levinson? What Mark Levinson? |
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oregonpapa, Thanks (it was me, not mahgister)! I figured TEAC out, but could not guess the other three. Most of the time, multiple remotes have a TV somewhere around so I was puzzled. I have DR-2 (I think) I got for $20 at Goodwill. That is why I noticed Nakamichi. Even mine plays really well. I agree with tapes in the car. |
mahgister ...
Remotes: 1. CD player. 2. Line stage. 3. Phono stage. 4. Teac CD burner. Nakamichi DR-3. I bought the Nak here on A’gon from a kind soul for $100 in like-new condition years ago and it still works perfectly. I like to burn some of my favorite LPs onto cassette and play them back on my Mark Levinson car stereo to listen to while driving. Analog in the car sounds just lovely. And by the way, cassettes don't sound too shabby in the main system either. Frank |
The best thing to do in a terrible room is a near field system if the person will go with it.Just a remark coming from my experience... I already have a small room 13 feet almost square... Near listening help in a bad room in the sense that it "seems" a little less worst and it is in some measure...The direct sound coming from the speakers help.... Thats all.... My acoustical experiment worked improving my near listening (3 feet) also... Then EVEN in near listening a room must be treated and under control acoustically... It is a myth that with near listening you are free to let your room untouched...In a non treated room, even in near listening the "timbre" experience will not be so natural and the imaging not so good.... It is my experience.... By the way i never pretended to have more experience than you for example in using an equalizer... I dont doubt your expertise with that and will ask you help when i will need to... But i have also my experience and some unusual devices or materials did unexpected things for me...I dont want to be trusted on words but i dont want to be mocked either....Thats all.... |
Mahgister you are totally right that you do not have to spend a fortune to have a brilliant system and you can certainly improve the experience with proper acoustic management. But it is not rocket science and you do not have to spend a fortune doing it either.You already know that even if the hallograph experience interested me for example i NEVER recommend to people to buy costly tweaks at all...Not because they cannot work, to know that, we must experiment, but because they are too costly sometimes for what they give or too easy to replicate at no cost.... I recommend to experiment ourselves...creativity and partaking creativity is my business not selling costly products... I did it and i dont need to buy anything... I just dont like when someone attack many satisfied customers because of this purchase with only no sound reason except an alleged kowledge.... For example i created my room tuner after experimenting with the idea behind the "Argent roomlens" product which is sold more than one thousand dollars... I recreated it in few hours and probably improve it....I recommend to people to experiment with it not to spend money... All consumerism and all market sells half truths... The truth is : dont upgrade before knowing what your system can really do, working at his best potential level when it is rightfully embedded in these 3 dimensions: mechanical, electrical and acoustical.... Is it not simple? Doing that is possible without buying anything costly... It is my experience.... And i dont pretend to have the best audio system at all.... Just enough good to make for me the idea to upgrade useless.... My best to you .... |
@mahgister. Just a question. How many system's have you set up? Just yours. Maybe a friend or two? Experience is always the best teacher especially when you make a mistake. Some of us have enough experience that we can tell how difficult a room is going to be. Its not that we can't make it better but there are some problems you just can not solve. Some rooms are better than others and when I walk into a room I know right away if I can turn it into a SOTA sound experience. I have told people not to waste a lot of money in a specific room because no matter what we do it will never be SOTA. The best thing to do in a terrible room is a near field system if the person will go with it. I actually refused jobs because I did not like the situation and did not want to be associated with it. How a system is set up is very important but so isn't the equipment particularly the speakers. It is all important but some things are horribly over estimated in importance and overpriced. A lot of the stuff like the Hallograms are based on totally false assumptions. Mahgister you are totally right that you do not have to spend a fortune to have a brilliant system and you can certainly improve the experience with proper acoustic management. But it is not rocket science and you do not have to spend a fortune doing it either. I've got to get back to work a patient almost succeeded in cutting his thumb off. |
Yes, expectations shape everything, but so do physics. It’s hard to differentiate the two, and almost completely irrelevant to do so if you’re only working on a single system built for your own two ears. Try things and choose what sounds better is a pretty simple decision rule and doesn’t require anything but experimentation and listening. Thanks for your interesting posts and experience.... i am happy to read other post than attack against people experience or gear.... Personally i never tried to prove anything, except for myself to give a better audio experience....Only listenings experiments could do it for me... it is not necessary to wait for upgrade money nor to a scientific explanation that are not always easy to find in specific case anyway to begin experimenting and listening.... I think it would be pretty absurd to invoke expectation bias for being the ONLY explanation about my improved audio system for example by my homemade devices controls creation...In some case with some device yes....we deceive ourself sometimes, i experience that also...But in many case not at all... Because the audible effect is too large and too precise to be negated or doubted.... Expectation bias are well suit to explain for a single experiment and a single action, not so well to explain a continuous incremental improvement each week with some experiments for 2 years and this despite continous judgement errors also... Any possible experiment need some feed back verification and corrections to eliminate biases or bad choices... It will be like accusing someone to hallucinate over 2 years, controlling his own mind like a yogi in a positive thinking act that would work nevermind what he will add to his audio system... I am not that powerful in my expectation will power conscious or not....I need different materials and some varied devices to change the working of my system for the better...Biases will not do for 2 years... Alas! And all experiments are not all positives, experiments in listening is a guided feedback in installation devices... It is the way and context which make me able to imagine and create improvement by changing conditions and materials and eliminate my biases or correcting them... Only limited narrow mind that never experience by themselves invoke "placebo" or "expectation bias" to explain anything they dont like and in whatever context....There is even some that pretend to be able to judge with only a look...Clever people? or deluded one ? make your choice, mine is made.... Expectation bias explanation has not a so broad back and so great power so to speak to explain everything and more... Sometimes if you put shungite rock on top of an already warm sounding amplifier you must attribute the sudden increased sound compression to the minerals you just put there and not to your power of imagination....It is easy to repeat this experience and test it with adding a piece of quartz that will have the opposite effect.....I call that a little experiment, no bias here... Except in the mind of those who prefer to keep their blinders and going on calling "placebo" "hallucination" or expectation bias anything they dont like or believe in....Myself i dont believe i only try....The only science that matters is the science of today working for tomorrow...Not scientist dogmas.... Science is complex interpenetration of varied fields studying complex phenomena... The "timbre" phenomenon for example for the description of his modelling factors need how many specific disciplinary concepts to be understood? Judging then the timbre factor a subjective colored bias is ridiculous.... Someone supposed to be a scientist here precisely did that.... Then when you dont like a donkey and you want to sell it your bias is that the donkey dont walk with enough energy the donkey indeed had his own bias and you dont like it..... 😁 Bias are always there anyway, we are not in the obligation to stay with only them we can try something else.... My best to you.... |
As everyone knows, you can find other places on the internet (and threads here) where people will mock others for claiming that they hear differences in amplifiers, dacs, cables, and power cords. Basically everything besides speakers... It’s really all about where you draw the line, and whether you’re willing to experiment with things just over that edge. If you go far enough back, you can find some post of mine citing expectation biases and discussing how it’s just impossible for different power cables to change the sound. I mean, they’re before the amp’s power supply!?!? If it’s actually correctly installed, and providing AC without limiting current, how could different cords possible influence the sound?? Well, one day I gave a different cable a shot and damn, it turns out my knowledge of how music reproduction worked wasn’t sufficient to guide me in this domain, because it really did make a difference. Like @audio2design, I’ve taught about expectation biases. I did so in top research universities and even have an international "paper of the year award" for a theory about how expectation biases work to change judgement, behavior, and motivation. But while expectation biases nicely explain why "fancy" looking cords sound better, they don’t do so well with the fact that I heard these cords sound worse than stock on one amplifier but better than stock on another. And they really didn’t help my experience that I could iterate through different power cords with any given piece of gear and hear each push the sound in different directions, liking certain cords on some gear, but not on others. Yes, expectations shape everything, but so do physics. It’s hard to differentiate the two, and almost completely irrelevant to do so if you’re only working on a single system built for your own two ears. Try things and choose what sounds better is a pretty simple decision rule and doesn’t require anything but experimentation and listening. |
I am OK with your rules...but i dont buy any tweaks and i dont need to.... But i was desperate some 3 years ago.... My gear was fine but i was not in love with my system... I begins to experiment, with vibrations controls, electrical grid noise experiment, and acoustic.... In 2 years with experiments each weeks i create some controversials devices but they all worked for me at a variable level.... My last one is a room tuner.... I am very proud of my device: in particular my grid of linked and modified Schumann generators, my "Golden plate" and my last one i like it a lot... The Helmholtz-Fibonacci organ, 3 set of 3 bricks with 3 plumber copper pipes adjusted in lenght with the golden ratio(1.6) Cost peanuts and clean the sound across the frequencies range....2 sets of pipes are chosen relatively near one another in lenght the last set is more afar with these 2... One set behind my 2 listening positions, and one set laterally located a few feet near the speakers... My ideas are free to experiment with....Save for the clowns that will say that they dont need to verify by experimenting just to look at is enough....😁 My best to you.... |
I started in hifi back in the 70s on and off to various degrees. ~ 2008 I decided to get serious once and for all. Got some good advice here and learned a lot. Took a couple years to get it all right....right gear set up right to meet my expectations. I still dabble with things just to make sure I’m not missing anything of value to me in regards to my hifis. Technology always moves forward and improves over time. Harvesting its fruits effectively is always the trick. As they say YMMV. That’s the only real truth perhaps in this whole crazy hifi world. Agree that the key tweaks need not cost much, sometimes nothing. But again that’s just me. YMMV. Mapman rule #1: Don’t buy anything unless you have a clear idea how it works and how you will apply it and why. My professional career has always been with various applications of technology so I am comfortable with that, but of course again as always, YMMV. Live and learn! |
You are right it takes me 5 years to buy the right components... But it is more difficult to learn how to embed the system than to buy the right one... It is the reason why most people want to upgrade unsatisfied without even knowing what their system can do at his peak potential working... I know it takes me many years to know how sound my own system.....Installation is the key.... My greatest discovery is that it is not necessary to buy costly tweaks either.... You can create them.... i sell creativity not products or design upgrade.... My best to you..... |
With many speakers these days most amps will sound different. SO you do not start in the same place regardless of the amp. Getting that alone right is not a guarantee and can wind up with costly mistakes. Then there is that no two speakers sound exactly the same all the time. Not so simple. A lot comes down to personal preferences in the end. Just don’t oversimplify things to make a case and all will be well. Nothing is ever that hard if you really know what you are doing. Audio is particularly tricky because much of it in the end comes down to personal preference which varies widely and is hard to quantify hence all the products out there that sell. Also, yes, a good setup will ALWAYS make a difference but even there many ways to skin the cat and even worse each cat is different to start with. |
Buy the wrong stuff and no amount of setup will ever make it right. When i spoke about embeddings controls i dont spoke about miracles against a sound engineering design for sure.... Bad or too cheap design is without redemption.... BUT it is relatively easy to buy a very good amplifier for low price.... My Sansui AU 7700 was one of the best in his times, today it is only good but it is enough for me....I buy another one in case....😁 For speakers i buy Mission Cyrus 781 the top of Mission speakers but it is not here also the best in the world, only good one, but so good i dont need subwoofer... The most difficult part was to look for a very good DAC at low price... The NOs battery Dac of Christophe Mariac Starting Point Systems on Ebay with minimal design and only one TDA 1543 chip is for me perfect.... Not the best by damn good reason BUT.... I pay on a bid 20 dollars new....And i cannot criticize it on any count: timbre, imaging, soundstage, dynamic....Not the best byt so damn good upgrading is very costly.... To the best that i know what i must pay for an upgrade is : At least 12,000 buck Harbeth Speakers, Berning Zotl amplifier , Denafrips dac.... But my actual well embed only good system is so good because of the way it is under control in the mechanical aspect, the electrical grid not too noisy, and the acoustical taken care of, that upgrading is not very tempting... Take a vibraphone and a piano like in Sun Ra and Walt Dickerson magnificent cd "Visions"... Listen to the distinctive timbre of the piano notes and vibraphone notes, listen for the changing aural hues of each tone of vibraphone and the pulsating decay of the note... Listen to the critical bass notes of the piano.... Are the 2 instruments in the room? do they sound natural? is the sound come from the speakers? If they are in the room, with natural timbre very distinctive and no sound coming from the speakers, i call that an audiophile experience... There is better audiophile experience for sure, give me the three components i name above and it will be better.... But it will not trash my actual sound, only improve it because my actual audio system is relatively rightfully embed and good.... My best to you.... |
I’d resist the urge to oversimplify to make a case. For most, I suspect it is actually a mixed bag of both buying the right stuff and setting up well. Buy the wrong stuff and no amount of setup may ever make it right. Buy the right stuff and not nearly as much needed after the fact to try to make it right. Common sense. I do agree its not hard these days to buy good stuff that will work well together. Integrated devices can make that a snap these days. Not so easy still otherwise. Now, as a clear example, if its a Crosley integrated you choose, you might face some serious issues that no amount of setup will ever correct. But on the other hand buy an integrated amp something like this for a pittance and you will probably start off in a very good place, if not the "best": Amazon.com: Fosi Audio: Fosi Audio I can vouch for that one. Surprisingly good, might satisfy many with a good ear, but clearly not the best. |
BINGO!!!I learn that by myself for the last 2 years with listening experiments.... I smile at any costly gear review... Electronic design is mature for the last 60 years.... It is installation of the system knowledge that is lacking for most people not the choice of their speakers or amplifier.... All can have a very good hi-fi experience if they learn how to install their system...The best there is cost money for sure....But the diminishing return laws exist.... I dont pretend my system to be the best at all, but it gives me the best it can give, yes....Better system if badly embedded will not be better anyway.... |
mijostyn, "@glupson, Hey, it is time for you to make a comment!" I was not planning, but now when you request... "...he would have a look on his face as though he had just eaten a crap sandwich. Is it really that bad? Will it leave bad taste in his mouth? |
I think people with less elaborate systems are constantly looking for inexpensive ways to improve their systems and fall pray to marketing hype.I will remind Mijostyn that i bought no tweaks i create my own... And i know that a relatively good Hi-Fi experience dont have to be costly by my experience . Others more gullible than me can read costly gear reviews...I know first hand that good gear is an important factor but secondary to the way we must take care of the mechanical electrical and acoustical embeddings .... It is also some gullible consumers of some COSTLY solutions that fall for the marketing hype....Not only Tweakers.... A costly equalizer is not superior to an hallograph because it is you that have bought it... Marketting hype reproach are valuable not only for tweaks it is also valuable when all people are condtioned to upgrade.... But it is not this upgrading process that is KEY to audio it is HOW to embed the system we already own... The key to audio with ANY system at ANY price,is controlling the mechanical vibrations and resonance problem, controlling the high moise floor of the house and of the system, and controlling the acoustical aspects of the room....NOTHING ELSE... Bashing other speakers or room without even having listened to it has no excuse...... No need to hear to judge adequately has no sense ....Like Mijostyn proove it judging Toole room at first sitght.... I am sad that people are willing to go stupid instead of admitting simple evidence: turntable lovers are not all fool, tweakers are not all stupid, and Hi-fi dont cost necessarily big money....We cannot judge in general without experiencing a system in his room eespecially if we want to correct it........ |
And then there are those of us who have been in the hobby in excess of 40 years. Those of us who have worked in the industry. Those of us who have worked the rooms at various audio shows for dealers and distributors. And finally, those of us who not only listen but know what to listen FOR. Frank |
And this is specifically w.r.t. the Legacy III’s which were somewhat average at the time and have significant issues with the integration of the two different technology tweeters, and would not be, as Dr. Toole mentions above"neutral". They have a significant anomaly where the two speakers crossover. You drown the cat of your past post all about reflections, willing to bash oregonpapa... Now you switch about the particular speakers choice of Toole....To excuse his defence of reflections use....Even if the room of oregonpapa is smaller then it is there more easy to use reflections than in the Toole room ... Forgetting about his particular view of the positive use of reflections especially in small room like Oregonpapa one...You said that Oregonpapa has too much reflections and now his speakers are trash and this is the main point.... All reflections are good in Toole room not on oregonpapa room.... And now the remark of Toole made sense only with this Mirage speakers.... All others kind of speakers of the past decades, dixit audiodesign distorting Toole article, are trash.... If we analyse after reading the post of Quixote the post of Sancho Panza(mijostyn) the cat ressuscitate: Golly, that is an awful room, awful loudspeakers too. It seems that Dr Toole has a lot of knowledge but terrible ears or maybe he does not earn enough in his profession to be able to afford the good stuff and I am not saying that in a bad way, it is true for a lot of us. We do the best that we can.Except audiodesign, all people, turntables owners, tweakers, Even Toole, are not on the road and lack knoweledge... All that from these 2 who speak ill against all these people, turntables owners, tweakers, pretending science...It is almost all audiophiles... 😊 No acoustician by the way are on the same page exactly about small room treatment.... It is an art when applied not a pure science.... |
I think people with less elaborate systems are constantly looking for inexpensive ways to improve their systems and fall pray to marketing hype. It is the old science vs religion conundrum. So, keep up the good fight. It is a lot of fun watching them squiggle around the facts. They can not get their heads around the fact that some of us do not have to hear an item personally to know it does not work. Guys, it is just knowledge and experience. It is very easy to take advantage of those that have neither.Well said, @mijostyn |
Here is my take on the eMat. I have a fairly nice system, have what I consider decent but not extravagant anything, nice enough speaker cables, interconnects and aftermarket power cables. I can hear changes when made to my system easy enough. Other than that just mentioned I have never purchased one tweak. I happened to obtain a few eMats free from a friend. So no skin in the game one way or the other. I put the mats in the cover of my electric panel and on or under all major components (not speakers). I also made one other minor change to my system I cannot remember. I have to say that at the time I noticed a nice identifiable improvement in the sound of my system. But because of the other non eMat related change there is always that question in my mind how much improvement there would have been without it. Personally I attribute it all to the eMats but truly have no idea how. |
millercarbon ...
Good point, Miller. Most likely, he wouldn’t know what to listen FOR. Or, his preconceived notions would skew his brain into convincing him that the sound is mediocre. (it’s that glass tabletop, don’t-cha know). audio2design ... No front wall reflection control And again, you assume way too much. 1. Reflections are taken care of by the Hallographs. There are the two you can see in the corners behind the speakers, but there are two more behind the listening position. I can assure you that they are very effective. In addition to the Hollographs, there are Tube Traps behind the listening position. Then, there are the SR HFTs placed around the room. Oh, and the glass tabletop is removed for listening sessions. 2. All reflective glass surfaces like the pictures you mentioned have their own tweak in place, which I will not mention at this point. (secret stuff ya know) Mahgister would approve :-) . Same with the "rattling" blinds and the curio cabinet. 3. Those older speakers you mention are like most Legacy speakers. They perform way beyond their price point. And the best part? They have continued to keep up with every improvement I’ve made to the system. I don’t know what Legacy did in building these speakers, but when it comes to the Signature IIIs and the older Legacy Focus speakers, they got the darned things right. Imagine a pair of Harbeth 40.2s but with better bass and better highs. That is what these Legacys are doing at this point. Tonally amazing like the Harbeths too. 4. You mentioned the need for a center channel in a theater system. I used to work for an ultra-high-end audio/video dealer. When I say "ultra-high-end," that is exactly what it was. Two elaborate separate rooms, one for video, one for audio. The video room used all Goldmund electronics and the big Goldmund speakers. The performance was spectacular. Guess what? There was NO center channel. We found that it messed up the natural imaging presentation. We used to talk customers out of buying a center channel speaker. Not only did they save money, but they got better sound. And in the audio room ... we used the best electronics and speakers money could buy. Compared with what I’m getting at home using all of the PPT tweaks, and everything else I’ve done, yes ... the soundstage was bigger, it played louder, and was impressive in all ways. HOWEVER, when it comes to intimate realism, in a much smaller room, I’ve got it beat hands down. 5. Now right there is the problem with you and your ilk. Your type does a lot of assuming. What magic powers do you possess that allows you to know what something sounds like without hearing it? Do you have X-Men superpowers? I suppose you have super strength and X-ray vision as well? Nah ... super arrogance is your forte. 6. The invitation still stands. Frank |
mapman ... the moral of the story is people should spend thousands of dollars on things that nobody can explain ...Not at all. Everyone is free to spend their money however they please and - given that this is a hobbyist’s audio forum - should be free to do so without enduring insult and attacks from others. Of course, some seem to come here specifically so that they can insult and attack. Here’s my take on the PPS eMat: 1. I’ve never tried it 2. I have no plans to try it anytime soon 3. I refrain from criticizing those who have experimented with the product. It’s so simple! |