After months of research and mental anguish ;) I've narrowed down my search for new amplification to the two in the title. There are obvious differences like the fact that one is a stereo amp while the other are monoblocks. Anyway, if you had to, which option would you go with and why? Thanks!
Hifigeorge: but anything Odyssey that he ever mentioned is negative.
This is incorrect, only the stereo’s that are made into monoblocks Klaus. The stereo’s amps I’ve said sound quite good if you search.
This was after my friend who was going to be your Au dealer saw had me check them out. After I pointed it out to him when he lifted the lid in the samples he got, the Monoblocks were just a pair of the stereo’s monoblock’ed, when he showed me the inside.
As for the stereo sample he got at the same time, I said to him it should sound better on the speakers we had, 89db-90db but a hard impedance load, and it did. So Klaus I only put **** on the monoblock’ed stereo’s amps, not the stereo amp.
I usually don't get too involved in discussions about my products, just let it go. Served me well over the past 32 years. HOWEVER, there are times when enough is enough, especially since a casual reader really might be influenced by some posts, which, without a doubt, are key intentions for some. So, it's time now to set the record straight on some outrageous posts.
----------------- First off, to the original post....yes, why not Pass if you don't want to go with Odyssey...Pass amps are good, and as long as you'll be happy, more power to it. Obviously many people seem to prefer Pass over Odyssey regardless if they ever had any direct comparison experiences, and how can you not be swayed by that much opinion ???? and I'm sure that there are some honest posts in this regard as well...... As for direct comparisons, and notwithstanding nilly-willy shadow posts, I can also point to a more professional, in-the-open and published comparisons: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/11/27/magnepan-and-tekton-meet-pass-labs-odyssey-job-merrill-red... Keep in mind though that these were early Kismets and have since then improved massively.
----------------------- As far as I and Odyssey are concerned, a little background here for the following points: In the past 22 years we have over 6800 individual customers who by far mostly bought amplifiers from us. In the past 4 years alone we have had over 400 of them who upgraded earlier models to Kismets...over 90 % of original owners still have their amps...just to show satisfaction levels of our customers. And yes, I have been nuts busy all the time, and at times simply can't find the time to address all of the issues a customer might have, but I always find time on the phone when someone calls.
Now, in the same time span there were a couple dozen deals that went sideways...some of them really, really bad, and yup, of course I screwed up several times myself and could have done much better, yes. However, I'm also not in the habit of taking s...... and am able to shut down any cooperation if I feel it's warranted. 1. Brings me to Robert's ( Bullit 5094) post. Let me just say without pulling email threads that it didn't really get down this way. Let me just say that I'm quite sensitive to being taken advantage of. 2. On a side note to Hifigeorge: Man, I have no idea, but anything Odyssey that he ever mentioned is negative. Has been brought to my attention a few times already. As for our monos which he called crap, let me just say this, knowing all of the different models well, of course: The monos are vastly superior to their stereo counterpart...and yes, while the wattage stays in the same neighborhood, the more important current goes up big time, however. Either way, specs aside, in musical terms the monos are much faster, detailed, fuller and richer with staging and pretty much everything in the micro- and macro area improved. Don't have any idea as to what experience he might have with other stereo vs. mono amps, but certainly not with ours.
3. Hiendmmoe: This is a legitimate former customer, yes. However:No, you don't have to constantly re-bias the amps. And the custom bias setting is not based as much on speakers, but more on the actual voltage, as the bias itself is directly dependent on it....voltage goes up, so does the bias, and vice versa if it goes down. But then again, some people just have a need to tweak and tweak and tweak, and never seem to sit still....and yes, biasing any amp is one of these things. Regardless, what peeves me off here is customer support being average at best ???? Excuse me ???? Just by pulling right now a quick search I came up already with 19 (nineteen) separate email threads with mmoe. In addition 21 (twentyone) phone calls. Hours and hours and hours of my time talking about the amps, biasing help, synergy and set-up advice, etc. Yup, just below average support after I already pocketed the thousand and thousands of $ in profits (not).
---------------------------------------------- Again, it is not the best policy for a manufacturer to get involved in online discussions about their products for obvious reasons. (and not the ones where some manufacturer or dealers go anonymously online to either hype their stuff or put down the competition, which is rampant.) It also never looks good to appear too defensive, especially since this might give more credence to the points that you address. For direct discussions we have our own circle at Audiocircle, where I also stay out of discussions for the most part. But there are moments where I have to speak up, and this is one of them. Stay safe, Klaus
I owned Kismet extremes for 3 years. Never really enjoyed them that much. Very smooth sounding but when it came to musicality they never really cut the cake. Besides they’re very quirky amps: Need to be biased to each speaker to sound their best, must be left on continuous, brake in period 3 months. More trouble than their worth. Also, as much as people have praised Krause, after sale support was average at best for myself.
+1 Klaus I have a pair of his Kismet References that he upgraded from Stratos and I couldn’t be happier. When you buy from Klaus or have them modified he does bias them to your electrical supply which is very important to getting them to sound right in your system. You get tremendous value for your dollar with Odyssey audio products.
I have Odyssey Kismet Monos (In Kartango Cases) & they are fabulous. Significantly cheaper than Pass & with somewhat better Specs in Damping Factor & Slew Rate, which are important in Bass & Slam. I do use Sub Woofers, as I am somewhat of a Bass Freek.
Mine are driven by an Assemblage Pre-Amp; both Amps & Pre-amp were purchased used, @ significant savings. Amp SN's are in the 52xx range & may even have better parts than those reviewed in the link above, as Klause of Odyssey is continually improving his products.
When I got the Odyssey Amps, I used my existing 8 Foot Twisted Silver Plated Copper
Cables on my Anthonney Galllo 3.1's
Later, I replaced these with 3 Foot, 20 Gauge,
5 Strands ,Twisted Pure Silver Wire
with Teflon shielding (wound myself from wire of which I had bought some 30 Years ago). WoW did the HIGH Frequency Response Jump out!
Yes, a big advantage of Mono's comes from using Much Shorter Speaker Wires!
Best of Sound as you continue your quest for Audio Perfection.
I'd go with Pass. Pass amps are recognized by MAGNEPAN, as the "go to electronics, when it comes to driving "MAGGIES" . Superlative in every respect. You might also consider PASS monoblocks and pre-amp if your budget can stand it. I am confident you will thank yourself.
The bridged ones, would have been crap also into your Revels as well for the reason outlined. And as for pre to power impedance, I don’t see 800 ohms into 10000 ohms such a bad mismatch either.
georgehifi I would disagree with you regarding my speakers/amp combo. Actually at the time my speakers were Dali Rubicon 6's that actually had a nominal impeadence of 4 ohms when I aquired the Kahrtargo monoblocks. The Kahrtargo monoblocks had a input impedance of 10k ohms My Dehavilland UV 3 had a output impeadence of 800 ohms so that was the deal breaker. At minimum my Dehavilland needs to "see" 18K ohms per Kara at Dehavilland. Happy Listening Mark
Last year I bought a pair of Kismet Monoblocks in stratos cases. Thery were used and I had them sent to Klaus for an inspection and upgrade.He installed the latest soda can sized output caps and an power supply upgrade. He said that the time that this is the same configuration that he has in his personal system. I have $5000 all in. I have heard Pass Labs amps and I they are better but that degree of better costs a lot more. If you go to any audio show where Klaus in showing his room is always among the best sounding rooms in the show.I would love to own a Pass amplifier but for the money Odyssey Kismets are hard to beat. I'll keep mine until I have the $20-30K to buy a Pass product.
Nelson Pass' products are head and shoulders above anything Clause supplies. Not even in the same ballpark. My experience with Odyssey is, purchased a Candella/Kismet. Never had any trouble with noise from amps prior to this. This pair you could hear noise from the listening position. Clause send new power components including a new transformer and had me change things out. No help. Returned it all to Clause who withheld shipping both ways and even credit card fees from my refund. Then told me all his amps make that much noise. Really? On top of that, I wasn't impressed with the sound over the noise either. I own Pass products too. Exemplary performance. If you can afford it, go with a Nelson Pass designed product.
Personally, I have owned 2 sets of Odyssey Monoblock Amplifiers. They were enjoyable, yet both sets were sold. No plans on buying more. I have never owned a Pass Labs amp. It sounds like they are the real deal. If the Pass Amps are anything like Balanced Audio Technology Amps, I can see the attraction.
I'll go with the Pass as it's a respected, musical, quality amp. No offense to Odyssey - I was curious if it was close enough as it would allow me to get more power for the money. @jafox I'll check out the SL amps out of curiosity. Thanks.
I think I see what you are referring to in the photos. In the mono version there is a sleeving containing a red wire and a yellow wire, which appear to connect the amp’s output connectors to the printed circuit board. With the red wire going to the part of the circuit board that is associated with one channel in the stereo version, and the yellow wire going to the part of the board that is associated with the other channel in the stereo version.
Which is suggestive of a bridged design. However I suspect that the two channels are paralleled, rather than bridged. With one wire, probably the yellow one, going to circuit ground, and with a connection between the outputs of the two channels being made somewhere where we can’t readily see it, perhaps underneath the board, and in turn connected to the red wire.
As you know, bridging can potentially increase power capability into 8 ohms by 4x (i.e. by 6 db), although most bridged designs fall somewhat short of a 4x increase due to current and/or thermal limitations. But in this case the increase in 8 ohm power capability of the mono version relative to the stereo version is almost negligible (less than 0.8 db). And as you indicated bridging reduces damping factor, while the damping factor of these monos is substantially higher than the damping factor of the stereo version.
Also as you know, paralleling can potentially increase power capability by 2x, while increasing damping factor rather than decreasing it. But IMO it doesn’t speak well of the robustness of the power supply and/or other aspects of this design that the mono version only 20% more powerful into 8 ohms than the stereo version.
In any event, it’s really a moot point as far as we are concerned, as you, I, and several other posters recommend going with the Pass amp whether the Odyssey monos are bridged or paralleled or something else.
I have been following this thread from the start. As the OP stated, only two options were to be considered: Pass and Odyssey. But there actually is a logical third option: Symphonic Line (SL). Have a look at the link below and I will explain further.
Jonathan Valin states that the circuit in the Odyssey is the same as in the SL RG-11, the lowest model in the SL lineup. Maybe so, but that is where the similarity stops. I have an older rev 15-20 years old)of the RG-11. I borrowed a stereo Stratos amp a couple years ago. I believe the Stratos was higher power rated, but the comparison was no match. The SL had so much more clarity and refinements throughout it was not even close! I honestly don't know how JV went so crazy for the Odyssey amp, and referenced h super-fi amps in his coismparisons. The Stratos simply sounded like a budget amp to me. And here I had a very early version RG-11, and it walked all over the nearly new Stratos.
I have no idea what is going on with SL amps, but they are just incredibly stunning. I got the RG-11 for $700 a few years ago and I am absolutely positive that nothing on the new or used market can touch it for anything even close. JV did mention it was 5K at the time of his review, and I can clearly understand why! I have gone through a ton of amps trying to make my speakers sing. Even the coveted Nelson Pass SA1 mono amps of years ago, that were able to drive the woofers of the Sonus Faber Amati speakers in a most awesome fashion, were easily outclassed by the RG-11 in clarity, tonal coherency and mid and upper-octave refinements.
I had heard of SL a few times along the way, but this little RG-11 amp can do a darn good job driving the big Sound Lab A1 speakers and could even make the SF speakers sing fairly well too at medium volume. Inserting the Stratos to drive the SF's, and the result was severely dimensionally flat. So Rolf Gemein, chief SL designer, just does something special here.
I have since purchased a new version of the SL RG1 amp. This is the next up the SL line, and it has much more capability to drive my speakers to impressive levels. And it brings on a much more refined portrayal of space. A shoot out with the big BAT amps gives the pros and cons of refined detail and finesse of the SL vs. the big bold powerful BAT. I can only dream to go up another level or two within SL.
So @whatsmyname, yes, I suggest that you do indeed call Klaus at Odyssey? And why do I say this? Because he is the SL distributor in the US. There is a good chance he might have an SL amp for you to audition. And the SL will give the Pass a serious run for the money, and likely take the checkered flag.
almarg I believe that the Odyssey Stratos monos are not bridged
Al have a close look at my first post links to the "Stratos stereo" and then the "Stratos mono", and I’ll see if I can get some better shots if you still can’t see it.
This is better shot of the stereo The Stereo https://ibb.co/0yHZFTM The Mono has a transformer case and some extra PS caps around it, but it’s a bridged stereo Stratos https://ibb.co/9ZqDw18
I believe that the Odyssey Stratos monos are not bridged, and the use of the term "bridged" in their description ("
RCA & XLR (bridged) inputs") is misleading. There are several indications of that:
1) See the posts by me and Stereo5 dated 6-4-2018 in this thread. Apparently the word "bridged" is confusingly used to refer to a direct connection between one of the two signal pins on the XLR connector and the signal pin on the RCA connector.
2) The specified power capability of the monos is only slightly higher than that of the stereo version (180 watts vs. 150 watts into 8 ohms).
3) The specified damping factor of the monos is higher than that of the stereo version (>800 vs. >500).
That said, and although I have no experience with Odyssey products, as a Pass owner (XA25) I would second the comment by @fsmithjack above. The two brands are not in the same league IMO.
Um - let’s see. What should I choose a Lexus or a Kia. Sure Kia make some nice cars that people love and have great warranties and so on but so what. This is not a legit comparison by any stretch.
nothing wrong with a bridged amplifier if done properly!
Really? then please show how to bridge this common simple Nelson Pass Threshold S300 amp "properly" so it’s just as good as the stereo version. https://imgur.com/we3VoER
Kismets can be put in the stratos cases for a great price reduction, or even the khartago cases to save even more.
Same amazing,amps in smaller cases, give Klaus a call, call between 9-11pm for best answer. tell him I sent you, or that you are interested in. The Kismet amps in different cases, you will be pleased. Kismets in the top tier cases are about 5000k roughly, Kismets in strato or khartago cases much less. Cake Klaus, see what he has to offer, tell him your speakers, tell him your considering the Pass amps, he will be honest with ou.
Thanks everybody. Please note that the Pass I reference is a dot FIVE not eight. I can’t afford an 8. The .5 can be bought used for roughly the same price as the Stratos Stereo Extreme or Stratos monos basic. I’m aware of the fact that Klaus does custom builds and there are multiple tiers/options. The Kismets are out of my price range so they are not a consideration.
Pass allows a 2 week trial with a 5% restock fee and freight both ways. Maybe out $600 if they are returned. Do not know what Klaus offers. My advise is to try the Odyssey first.
The Kismets range in price from 5500 in the top tier cases. to lower in different cases. its not the cases, it’s the guts and top tier parts, capacitors etc!
Don’t want the best cases, get the top amps in smaller cases.
Call Klaus and chat and hear him! he will put you in the correct direction.
I actually owned a pair of Odyssey Audio Kahrtargo monoblocks and found they were horrible in my system. It could have had something to do with the output/ input impedance mismatch between my preamp and amps.
The information on the Odyssey web site about the Kismet Reference amps is pretty sparse. Dimensions and 8 ohm power output is about it. Also, no price. Anyone know what these things cost?
The weird thing is that the Stratos line is well documented on the web site. This doesn't inspire confidence.
I owned a stereo Odyssey amp and a pair of Odyssey mono blocks at the same time and I can confirm that the stereo amp sounded better than the monos. I have heard a lot of Pass amps and would agree that they are probably better to my ears. Odyssey makes a good product though.
My buddy had the
Stratos amps for many years. I brought over a Luxkit Class A amp that simply crushed it in very way. He sold it the next day. I'd would without any thought go with the Pass not even close.
I actually owned a pair of Odyssey Audio Kahrtargo monoblocks and found they were horrible in my system. It could have had something to do with the output/ input impedance mismatch between my preamp and amps. Make sure ratio is at least 20 to 1 I own Pass Labs now and will never look back Mark
I just wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Odyssey.
I would not have dismissed so quickly, if it were just a stereo version and not bridged into mono, stereo amps. But still would have given the Pass the nod.
I don't see where any of the above responses mention sound quality. Resale value, after sale support and some theoretical technical issue are relevant, but they should only be considered after sound quality. I have not tried either amp with you particular setup so I really don't have an opinion. I just wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Odyssey.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
