Bondmanp I also noticed some difference with my Pangea AC-9SE power cord when I plugged it in. Maybe just my imagination- most engineers would say that there's no theoretical basis for a difference in sound, but it's one of those minor tweaks. |
I thought I'd weigh in, since I've had a pair of Ohm 5000's for about 6 mo now. Originally, I had looked at electrostatics (Martin Logans) but they were more expensive and I was intrigued that Walsh drivers were still made, having last heard them ca 1977. Also, the fact that the company would offer upgrade kits to speakers made over 30 years ago sold me on them as having a quality product and outstanding customer service. I chose my 5000's in Bubinga wood and John was very nice in not charging me extra for the exotic product. He even sent me several samples to choose from to help me make up my mind. The speakers came triple boxed and of course unscathed. The construction is great, no scratches or flaws. They are well broken in now and sound fantastic! I find that the audio sources and the recordings themselves are the most important factors in enjoyment of the speakers. Hooking up my iPod is great for background music if I'm having a party, but no way would I sit down and listen for pleasure with that.
Ok, so what's my setup? I started with a tube preamplifier of unusual design, probably the first in the states to own a Ming Da MD300 APS (sourced through Pacific Valve & Electric). The initial stage uses 6SN7's, and I use VT-231's from WWII. The final stage is 300B's, and I have Gold Lions from Genalex (Russian). This can be a bit microphonic so I installed tube dampers to help quiet them. The sound stage is amazing when using this with the 5000's, really makes one feel you are AT the concert and you can place the instruments easily. This preamp comes very, very close to a SET sound, which is what i was looking for. I paired the preamplifier with a Sumo Polaris II that's about 20 years old. At 6 ohms it puts out 170W per channel and I've never even begun to think I'm underpowered. So for me tube/SS has worked out well, getting the SET sound I wanted without having to go for a super efficient horn speaker like a Klipsch.
My speaker wire is an old Monster Cable product which is no longer made- it's braided from 8 cables in a Litzendraht design that results in very low capacitance.
I bought a Sansui TU-919 from eBay for my tuner, and I'm very pleased
with it. I originally used a HD radio from Sony but decided on an analog unit from the late '70s.
Nothing special for the CD, except it's an Onkyo C-S5VL that comes with a very good Wolfson DAC and plays SACD. I don't fiddle with the different digital audio filters, just use the factory settings. Some SACD's are scary good- Pink Floyd DSOTM and Who's Tommy come to mind. The bass response is great on these SACD's, but it's also impressive on CD's, like Zappa's Inca Roads.
Vinyl (Pro-Ject 5.1) can be fantastic, like the Blind Faith I picked up for $5, but sometimes recordings sound quite bright. Haven't figured that one out yet.
It's nice at the age of 58, four kids out of the house, to get back to my musical roots and have an old school setup to showcase the Ohm 5000.
James |
Mapman the 5000 uses veneers, not solid exotics. The end result is very pleasing, though not the glossy finish of a rococo dining piece. I was torn between that and purpleheart. John never had a request for that wood, but he got me a sample. So if anyone out there wants to have a one of a kind, look at purpleheart.
It's quite true that various woods sound different- when I bought my son an electric guitar as a present, I selected one with a body made from korina wood. More of a classic 60's guitar. |
I have an update on my system. As you know I said that my vinyl was a bit "bright", actually more of a bit lacking on the low end. So I took out the fine high output MC Bluepoint #2 that came with the Pro-Ject and installed an AudioTechnica AT-33EV that was on sale at JR's. I hooked it into my NAD PP3 phono amp, but didn't notice that much difference in sound until the next day when I hooked the phono into my new step up transformer first, then into the MM input of the NAD. The step up transformer is a Raphaelite PM 1.1, sourced again through Pacific Valve (thanks Joe!). The result was game changing! So many more low notes that I never heard before, clean, and not dominating. I can hear the low notes on a piano or guitar in all their glory. Last night I listened to the half speed master edition of "Stradust" by Willie Nelson, ca 1980- it never sounded this good before. So the lesson is that sometimes (as you all know) it's not the speaker that's lacking- this I knew from listening to SACD recordings- but one arm of the system. Unfortunately, PV&Co may discontinue stocking the Raphaelite (they might reconsider if they get a lot of inquiries and NO I have no financial interest in the company), as it didn't sell well, but as far as I'm concerned this one little addition just transformed my entire LP collection into something very magical! Can't wait until I get my boxed set of Dick Dale albums (Sundazed records) in the mail. |
Once again I upgraded my system (Is there any escape from this madness?). You can check out the amp review in the Products Review:Amps:McCormack DNA-250 |
Mapman I have photos but I can't seem to figure out how to put these in a response- it only accepts words, not jpeg. |
Posted my virtual system with photos for anyone interested under "Opinions Please" |
Thanks Newbee and Mapman, last night I moved the speakers in a bit and the speakers disappeared; I was surrounded by music! Finsup the room size is a bit misleading from my photo. There is the dining room behind where I sit that is one foot above the listening area and extends about 20 feet behind where I sit. Similarly, off to the left, the room opens up into a large entrance way. The ceilings are about 11-12 feet high. So when I crank up the volume I can enjoy the music while dining or I can hear when I'm off to the wetbar on the left of the room. If the room were enclosed, I would have gone with the smaller speakers like the 3000 or 2000. |
Right you are Mapman. There are actually four adjustment switches on the back of the 5000's, one of the selling points for going to the top of the line. The 4000's are actually the same speaker without the adjustment circuits. So if you know the size of your room and don't plan on moving them, John at Ohm can set the adjustment from the factory on a set of 4000's. |
Finsup the 4000's are set at the factory, but John Strohbeen (the president) is very reachable by phone and would be happy to talk with you about your particular room. The 4000's are cheaper by $1000 so one has to decide if the flexibility is worth it. I personally find that the adjustments are subtle and the instructions that come with the units are helpful. For example, there are recommended settings for corner placement, wall placement, and room placement that come with the 5000's. I personally wouldn't want a different set of speakers- I LOVE these units, and everyone who has heard them votes the same.
Bondman yes that is correct; I already had a lot, especially when I was well back and slightly above my normal listening chair by sitting in my adjacent dining room. At that point, some 30 feet or more away, it was like sitting in the balcony of a live performance.
Thanks mapman- I posted a comment in my system page.
BTW I think that Pacific Valve sells top notch tube equipment and accessories, but I know that off brand Chinese imports are not everybody's cup of tea- the resell value is not so good, and there is not a prestige factor. |
Interesting design, but it doesn't appear to use a Walsh driver. The only other manufacturer of Walsh drivers that I know of is Physiks in Germany, who produce frightfully expensive and prodigious (the top of the line weighs nearly 1000 pounds) speakers. Part of the appeal, supposedly, of the Ohm is that the Walsh driver in original form produced coherent waveforms across the spectrum. Electrostatics should do the same. The only other "omnidirectional" speaker I've heard was the Bose 901 series, which actually uses direct and reflected sound- I never cared for them much. |
Interesting how different recordings sound with the Ohms, isn't it? I just put on the remastered vinyl of Are You Experienced. On a conventional system, Jimi's sound effects bounce from speaker to speaker; on my 5000's, it seems to swirl- very cool to listen to. Then I put on a new version of Abbey Road (vinyl), which while very enjoyable seemed to have the top end of the treble muted. Just seems that the record is biased to the bass side.
I've noticed that in my setup if I sit close, about 8 feet from the speakers, the bass is less noticable than if I move to 15 or 20 feet back. My particular room has an open dining room behind my listening area, with lower ceilings than in the main room, and also two steps up from the other floor. The net effect is that if I shift into the dining area I get the "blacony in the concert hall" sound. Nice to have these options, depending on my mood. James |
Mapman I had to chuckle over that translation. It's almost as if it makes sense but not quite. I think that he liked them though. Maybe I'll get my son to translate (he's a German major in college) and see how he does. |
When I first had my 5000's, I hadn't listened to fine stereo in quite awhile and naively placed them near my wall (glass windows actually) towards the corners. I thought they sounded great of course, not having had a reference point for many years. I upgraded some components and following mapman's suggestions began moving them out from the rear windows and in from the corners. Now that I have them where I want them, I've reached a point of supreme satisfaction such that I don't wish to move them further. It's hard to explain in words, but when one reaches the correct placement it's a bit like discovering resonance; that is, you suddenly say to yourself, now THAT'S sweet. I find that I forget about right speaker/left speaker as it becomes completely irrelevant.
As to you setup, become comfortable with what you have for 6 months or so before changing or upgrading components. That way the previous experience will be well drilled into your memory. For me, adding a more powerful amp helped the low end, but these are 5000's and yours may be quite happy with what you have. The other big, big difference for me with vinyl was adding a step up transformer to the MC cartridge before feeding into the MM input. It just revealed the bass in the vinyl. Oh yeah, the speaker placement helped with that too. |
As you know from my previous post, I switched my 5000's from being powered by a SUMO Polaris II (130 wpc) to a McCormack DNA-250 (250 wpc) and experienced a "fuller" bass. The midrange and highs seemed the same. So while the Ohms run fine on moderate power they do seem to light up more with muscular amps, though one needn't go overboard. Keep in mind that Ohms present 6 ohms, rather than the more typical 8 ohm load, so a given amp (customarily rated with an 8 ohm load) will put out more watts at the lower load. I myself am somewhat skeptical of high output tube amps, and think that a tube preamp coupled with a ss amp is more appropriate for a speaker like the Ohms, if one is looking for a "tube" sound. That's not to say that it can't be done with all tubes; it's just much easier. And tube rolling with a preamp is easily done because the power demands don't overwhelm the different tubes that one might use. My preamp uses 300B's (granted, overkill) and 6SN7's, with the option of rolling out the 300B's for 2A3's. But I suspect that the Ohms will sound good with just about any decent amp, even modestly priced integrated ss ones from one of the chain stores. |
I would just call up John- he's very friendly and approachable. Just flat out ask him if they go on sale or if he can do something special for you like free shipping. Also, if you are willing, he can sometimes give you a deal on speakers that have been rebuilt from old cabinets. Or maybe someone returned a pair of 3000's so he could give a used price- one never knows unless you ask. |
I actually think that the vast majority of "breaking in" is just getting used to the incredible sound stage that these speakers offer. It truly is a foreign sound when one first hears it. A good analogy would be headphones. One can put on a pair of topnotch headphones, and listen to music that has a flat frequency response curve from 20-20,000. But some people don't like them and prefer speakers. Sam thing with OHMs, but as in headphones one needs to put in 100 hours of listening to see if this does it for you and for many it will- just look at all the earbuds that one sees.
Having said all the above, I admit to fiddling around with speaker placement, switch positions (I have 5000's), etc until I was happy. Now I'm at the point of, "if it ain't broke, don't f*** with it". As a confession, I switched out the WWII 6SN7's for the Black Treasures from Shuguang- the RCA's were too microphonic, but they did give voices a dreamy quality, like being transported back to the 40's. |
Mapman, Bondman and others, I have a serious question. I have a turntable, many CDs, some excellent SACDs, a top notch FM receiver, and thousands of mp3's, mostly ripped at 196 kps or higher. Yet, 80 % of my listening is done on vinyl. Is it that I'm just an old guy who cut his teeth on vinyl and I'm into nostalgia or is there something unique about my setup with vinyl? Keep in mind that I took a nearly 30 year hiatus from vinyl until I set up my new system. |
Just updated my system with a Pangea AC-9SE power cord hooked up to my McCormack DNA 250. I know that this is a somewhat controversial subject, but Steve McCormack himself recommends upgraded power cords, so I bought a 2 meter cord from Pangea (and got $50 off- now through the end of the month!). I immediately noticed that the ground loop hum became barely audible. As to the performance, it may just be my imagination, but the bass notes seem slightly clearer and "fuller", to the extent that I just can't imagine using a subwoofer with my 5000's. Does anyone else think that a high quality power cord makes a difference in sound? BTW, this thing is as thick as a garden hose! |
Coot I'm very happy with my McCormack DNA-250. The bass respose was noticibly improved over my Sumo Polaris II. Note that the McCormack is rated at 250 wpc, but that is into an 8 ohm load and the Walsh 5000's present 6 ohms so the output is over 300 wpc to them. And the price of the amp at around $2500 is very attractive. The other thing is that if you want to upgrade the amp, Steve McCormack (who lives in Vista, CA) offers upgraded caps, etc at a variety of price levels. |
Coot I can only put them some 15" from the wall, but the stage depth is pretty good nonetheless. My living circumstances (and my wife) prevent anything else. The 5000's include adjustment switches that help with adjustment for room placement (ask John for specifics). My only "weakness" is my SACD/CD player, which will have to do for now, but if I had $1000 to spend it would be without question on the OPPO BDP-95.
I was happy with my Sumo (130 wpc) until I got the McCormack- made a nice difference, but I liked the Sumo for a year so just enjoy what you have and upgrade as finances permit. I don't think that Conrad-Johnson is abandoning the brand- in fact, they will install upgraded capacitors in a DNA-250 if desired, and I'm sure that their service is good too. It comes with a 3 year warranty if you register it. |
If you want to hear drum attacks, I just purchased a Japenese import of a remastered Who "Quadrophenia" on SACD. It's unbelievably good on the 5000's. Since I just heard the Who last month play their Quadrophenia live (with a very competent substitute drummer), I could compare that with the Ohm's. They are just as good as the live, and I have my kitchen and bar nearby! |
1 watt into an Ohm is a SPL (sound Pressure Level) of about 87 dB at 1 meter. This is relatively inefficient. For example, a Klipshorn corner speaker has a SPL of 102 db- you could practically drive them with a flashlight. So double the power, dB goes up by about 3. So to go from 87 dB to 102 dB would require 32 watts in an Ohm., or 32x the power. This would be in an anechoic test chamber, without the affect of furniture, rugs, etc adsorbing the sound. And sound degrades quickly with distance, amplifiers clip at their limits, etc the power requirements are much more that the 32 watts. |
Coot I think 180 wpc@8 ohms is enough. Before I got my McCormack (250 wpc), I was using 130 wpc amp and it sounded nice. The extra power was noticed primarily in the deep bass response, and you should be fine, particularly with classical music. Also remember that Ohms have an impedence of 6 ohms, which means your 180 watts will be over 200. |
Have you guys seen the new Ohm website? http://ohmspeaker.com It's a beta site, much better than the current version, plus there is an incentive to find errors. I can't believe it, but the Ohm 5000 talls are priced at $3250, instead of the current $6500. No kidding! Check it out. |
Oops! My bad- the new website lists the 5000's at $3250 EACH, the same price currently for a pair. Anyway, the website is much improved find a mistake, email John, and he will take 10% off the price of a new set of speakers- limit 4 per customer. |
Coot, a SET would not work for the Ohms. A push-pull of high wattage (such as a McIntosh, would need about 150 wpc for the 5000) tube would be fine. My approach with inefficient speakers is to concentrate on a tube preamp with a powerful SS amp. That way one can play around with tube swapping without busting the bank (preamp tubes are relatively inexpensive), and tubes last much longer with the modest amount of amplification of the preamp. Some of the tubes are cheap, and some cost upwards of $1200/pair, like the Sophia Electric Royal Princess 300B, and with amps you might need to replace the tubes in as little as a couple of years with heavy use. |
I changed my listening setup a bit (see my virtual system) by getting a superb rack at Timbernation. It's made of tiger maple and walnut, a good compliment to the Bubinga of the Ohm 5000's. Now I get visual as well as aural delight!
Since my Chinese preamp has no phono stage (BTW, Pacific Valve the importer is out of business) I upgraded to Liberty Audio's B2B-1. This phono stage is unbelievable and I have it written up in another post. Now I'm waiting for a Lyra Delos, as I accidentally bent the cantilever on my Audio Technica. Bent it back and aligned it, but something seems different about the sound.
No doubt that the 5000's are overkill, but they can assume a commanding presence. Most of the time I respect my neighbors, but every so often I crank them up. |
A pair of Walsh 5 series 3 is up for auction today on Audiogon, if anyone is in the market. |
