First question for me is what Class D amp modules D-Sonic uses now. Most of what I have read has been speculation
Reading info on Pascal site again, Pascal may not be the most impressive Class D amp out there on paper compared to other newcomers I have seen mentioned as possibilities for D-Sonics, especially for some tube or other higher output impedance pre-amps, but for the price are still certainly worth consideration in any case. |
BTW, I considered the older D-Sonic Icepower based amps at the time but ended up going with Bel Canto for significantly more cost. THe 10K input impedance rating of those older D-Sonics plus no special robust design for the Power supply to the IcePower module used were the main reasons. I use an ARC sp16 tube pre-amp. Who knows, maybe it would have worked out fine, butI have not regretted going the way I did. THe newer D-Sonics have more appeal for me, especially assuming the higher powered ones have 40K input impedance or higher. That is what I recall reading for Pascal Class D amp modules on the Pascal site, but not certain. Pascal amps also appeared to be stronger out of the box in terms of power supply, current delivery capabilities, and overall switching amp specs compared to older Icepower. Assuming those are what is used, I would expect the product to sound VERY good, at least if they live up to the specs on paper. Were I in the market for another amp today, the D-Sonics would be a much stronger contender than 2-3 years a go or so. |
TObe,
10K ohm input impedance may be fine for many tube pre-amps, but I would just note that there are some Class D amps designed to work well with any pre-amp, inlcuding tube, like Wyred4Sound and Bel Canto, that introduce 60Kohm or higher input impedance for that purpose for best results in all cases. 10K may sound fine but could be more hit or miss for best results in terms of dynamics and low distortion IMHO. The reason is that most impedance ratings including those for pre-amp outputs are nominal for all frequencies but actual impedance varies significantly by frequency, so my opinion is that a high amp input impedance is a good insurance policy in order to be safe. |
At D-Sonic website under the Product tab, the input impedance for the 600W and 1500W output M2 series are listed as 60Kohm. But I e-mailed Mr. Deacon last month asking him what is the input impedance of the M2-1200S and M2-3000S stereo amp. He replied 10Kohm. So I'm not sure, but 10Kohm should be fine for all solid state active preamps and most tube preamps. |
ALso if anyone is interacting with D-Sonic to buy, if you can ask them to confirm what Class D modules their newer amps use, I would really like to know for sure. Pascal Class D modules have been inferred elsewhere where I have read but not confirmed. I'm not sure the specs I see published on D-sonic site match Pascal or not. THat does not mean that those modules are not used and tweaked in some ways by D-Sonic, though I recall in the past D-Sonic seemed to merely put stock Icepower modules in a box with no apparent electronic mods. Not sure what D-Sonics expertise is to be able to do electronic tweaks as opposed to merely packaging amp modules from other sources. |
I'd check the input impedance spec of the newer D-Sonic amps.
The older ones were stock Icepower, 10K ohm input impedance, not a great match for most higher output impedance pre-amps, like most tube pre-amps. DOn't know about Placette specifically.
Newer D-Sonics use Pascal Class D modules I believe and I recall reading these have 40K or so input impedance, which is much better for use with high output impedance pre-amps.
I would confirm the D-Sonic output impedance specs though in that I am not 100% certain about specs of the newer D-Sonics. |
Coot, is that Placette VCU a Placette Audio passive linestage preamp? If so, you might have an impedance mismatch with the D-Sonic M2 which I believe have an input impedance of only 10Kohm. Actually there some confusion, is the D-Sonic M2 input impedance 10Kohm or 60Kohm? At 10Kohm it will give trouble (roll off highs) to resistor type passive preamp and some tube preamps. If the input impedance 60Kohm, there should be no problem. |
Absolutely! I have learned much from you guys and other forums as well. Only fair to reciprocate.
My system is MacMini > M2Tech Hiface2 USB/spdif converter > M2Tech Young DAC > Placette VCU > B&K EX442 > Ohm Acoustics 5000s
Regarding the amps' break-in, can I run them with speakers off w/o damage? |
Coot: At the rate I am going, you'll have your new amp before I will have mine, so when you do get it, please post your impressions. Thanks! |
Thank you all for your sound advice (pun intended). I will go for the amps first - a pair of D-Sonic M2-1500s sometime in the Fall. |
Coot - If you review my more recent posts, you will see that my Odyssey Audio HT3 amp (w/ cap upgrade), which is rated at 150 watts/channel @ 8 ohms, was audibly clipping **in the midrange**, especially on vocals. I do run my Walsh 2000s with powered subs, but the Odyssey was struggling with the midrange. IMHO, I would go with a beefier power amp before I added subs to a pair of 5000s. You will still get plenty of bass out of the Ohms, and if your room is large, and your present amp is clipping, you could damage the 5000s. |
Fore Coot, with classical/organ music, and OHM 5000s, 250-500 juicy watts from a good Class D amp or appropriately beefy Class A/B may well add value.
My Bel Cantos I use on OHM 5s are 500w/ch of good Class D. That should do it I would think, but extra power in reserve if needed can probably not hurt, though some caution to avoid overdriving might be in order in that my 500w/ch amps seem to never break a sweat and I have never tried anything even more powerful.
I'd do the amp right first and then determine if any need for subs. With organ music, they may or may not still add something of value if set up right, depending. |
Coot I think 180 wpc@8 ohms is enough. Before I got my McCormack (250 wpc), I was using 130 wpc amp and it sounded nice. The extra power was noticed primarily in the deep bass response, and you should be fine, particularly with classical music. Also remember that Ohms have an impedence of 6 ohms, which means your 180 watts will be over 200. |
I should add that music is mostly classical of which a large portion is pipe organ and large scale orch. - sometimes w/organ & chorus (ie, Mahler 2).
With my B&K when I turn it up, sq sounds a bit choked and closed in. On chamber music sq is wonderfully rich and natural. |
D-Sonics are worth a try IMHO.
More recent models are better suited for use with a tube pre-amp I recall.
Current delivery/robust power supply is more important than just power/watts.
Using subs should offload low bass from mains and reduce demand on the main amp so lesser amplification might be used if a good sub or two is in the equation.
IMHO, OHMs right sized t o the room with optimal power amplification do not need subs, but using subs is certainly an option if desired. |
Re: Power for 5000
I am considering both a new power amp and later adding subs. It has been stated here and elsewhere these speakers need lots of power. Is the power needed for the bass driver or the rest of the drivers? If I add powered subs, does the 5000 still need the same amount of power as without the subs?
Current amp is c1990 B&K EX-442 ~180WPC @8Ohms. Thinking of D-Sonics.
Any and all comments welcome. |
Drakef5: An audio club budy of mine uses a Denon AVR, suplemented by Crown power amps (not sure which ones) to power his own design speakers and subwoofers. Plenty of oomph, but I suspect they lack the refinement that an amp designed for audiophiles would have. If you decide to try the Crowns, make sure you can try them out in your system and that they can be returned if you're not happy with the results. |
Dsremer - Thanks a bunch for chiming in, your posts were very helpful. The AVMs, Merrils and other Hypex-based Class D amps are just too expensive for me at this time, but the D-Sonics might be a nice compromise between price, power, and sonics. I am looking at the 1500 watt/channel stereo model. The amps I had on loan were the Arion Audio RS-500 monos. Sounded fantastic, as I have stated. But, you know, if 500 watts is great, 1500 watts mmust be 3 X as great! |
I've also used a 30 wpc Jolida hybrid with my MWTs and while the sound was quite nice the amp clipped more than once while listening at reasonable levels. Obviously, care needs to be taken when putting together any system but lower-powered amps with Ohms line may not be the best match. YMMV of course. |
I have driven my Ohms with 32 watt/ channel tube amp. Tubes will usually produce higher spl than ss at same output, but I did experience a couple of instances of amp clipping so in my experience there is a risk of equipment damage at this power level. |
Thanks for the replies guys. @petepapp i do have the parasound amp and i like it better with the amp than just the receiver.
87 db at one meter is close to the threshold of hearing damage and with the sound of the ohms being magnified by the walls and surrounding environment i think that is plenty loud.
Anyway i just learned something about this expirement ...that ohms does not require big power to sing but blossoms with more.
It is a bliss if one is satisfied with a lower powered setup since its less hole in your wallet:). But...i guess this really is a sickness that i have where i am trying to extract every once of goodness that i can get with the ohms hence expirementation and less dollar in my pocket.
For now i will enjoy what i have until i get the itch again. |
1 watt into an Ohm is a SPL (sound Pressure Level) of about 87 dB at 1 meter. This is relatively inefficient. For example, a Klipshorn corner speaker has a SPL of 102 db- you could practically drive them with a flashlight. So double the power, dB goes up by about 3. So to go from 87 dB to 102 dB would require 32 watts in an Ohm., or 32x the power. This would be in an anechoic test chamber, without the affect of furniture, rugs, etc adsorbing the sound. And sound degrades quickly with distance, amplifiers clip at their limits, etc the power requirements are much more that the 32 watts. |
Drakef5,
Most Ohm users, if not all, (and I think it is all for those who have tried) report very positive results when giving the Ohms more power. While waiting for your Parasound, why not try an Emotiva amp? 30 day return policy... |
1 watt into the Ohms,which are not highly efficient, will probably not even be audible or barely so. |
How loud is 1 watt? I just wanted to ask because I connected the ohm sw2.2000 on a 45 watt kenwood kr-5150 and the meter was not even touching the 1 watt indicator and it was already loud. Not sure if the kenwood receiver was truthful but it was plenty loud at halfway mark of the volume control already.
The ohm sounds beautiful with the vintage kenwood by the way, warm but detailed with lots of bass and punchy sound, albeit a rich and forward sound. When I switched to the denon as preamp and the parasound hca 1500 however, the soundstage is deeper and wider, I'd blacker as well as the music is more transparent than the kenwood. |
Kbuzz-
How's the bass response with the Bryston?
Last week I shut my sub off for headphone listening (speaker tap on my Marantz- just shut off the sub and I'm good to go), and forgot to turn it back on. It took a while to notice the sub was off when I went back to the MWT's |
Just put my bryston o to my mwt's The prior posts re power are spot on. Bryston plus ohm equals beauty |
Thanks Dsremer, for your first hand account and opinion. |
There is considerable more refinement( you really are not aware that you have exchanged a top A/B dual monoblock with d-class amps). With the AVM mono"s you can adjust the sonic signature with switches on the back... from clear to medium to smooth to match with different speakers, the bass controll is more defined,the bottom end will suprise you there is a clear sweetness to the mids with no glare produced, the upper end is not bright nor does it tend to roll off as some other amps will do.
The d-sonic is used in my home theater with ohm 300 mk11 and it works well with the ohms, they sound faster in response more bottom end (requires a good power cord)
The avm mono's is used in my main system with tyler woodmere's which are a more open top to bottom and can reproduce any weakness in the front end/amp used (also improves with a top power cord)
I hope this helps.. both are very nice power amps but the avm's take it to the next level.
p.s. any body need a M.LEVINSON 336 mine will be available soon
Dennis |
Dsremer,
Other than cost, what are the biggest differences between m-sonic/Pascal Class D and AVM/Hypex Class D amps?
THanks. |
Not to hijack this thread but here is your info regarding the AVM AUDIO MA3.2 MONOBLOCKS
D-CLASS HYPEX
BALANCED AND SINGLE END INPUTS
BI-WIRE-SPEAKER TERMINALS
750-VA-TRANSFORMER WITH 50,000 uF FILTER CAPACITY
240W/CHANNEL 8ohms 430W/CHANNEL 4ohms totally stable at 3 ohms
Please feel free to e-mail me at propofol@earthlink.net for more info
Dennis |
Which OEM provides the Class D modules for the AVM MA 3.2 MONOBLOCKS? |
In response to the question about d-class the d-sonics are quite nice and match my aragon 2007 multi channel in sonic bliss they really do a better job on the low end then many A/B amps that I have listened to. Now first I must let you know that the next d-class amps I am going to discuss I am now a dealer for...AVM MA 3.2 MONOBLOCKS these are in my opinion a sonic match for a number of very fine amps. I currently have been compairing these with my M Levinson 336 dual mono block... they grab the low end better have a wonderful mid and nearly equal the top end of my 336. Condidering that the 336 retailed for $10,000 12 yrs ago and the AVM MONO BLOCKS are a little over 1/2 the price run much cooler,and cost pennies to use, I feel these are a great buy. Also because of their much smaller size can fit nearly anywhere... I am becoming a big d-class fan.
These are the 2 D-Class products that I have used enough to comment on, they are both non fatiguing, quick & powerfull easy to work with. I am very happy with both products....Dennis PrimeOne Media |
Ditto. I too would like user feedback on D-Sonics as I will be upgrading shortly. |
TObe,
I am interested in any review or comparisons you can offer on teh new D-Sonic amps as well. They use newer Class D amp technology and reviews and user feedback on them is in early stages. Thanks. |
Dsremer, I'm eyeing the D-Sonic 600 w/ch stereo Class D amp for purchase next year. In your opinion, have these new Class D modules surpassed Class A/B and are approaching pure Class A amp, sound wise. |
Holy schmoly!
Did I read that someone is considering a Crown XLS1500 to run a pair of Ohms? I use an XLS1500 professionally with my bass rig. I gotta tell you, I can run one channel into a 4-ohm cabinet and overpower a PA at an outdoor concert with that rig.
And actually, yes, it is a great amp for home speaker use- I know quite a few guys who do it. Although, with my Micro Walsh Talls it's overkill, so I don't.
There are two drawbacks that I am aware of. First, the noisefloor of these may may not be optimal. They're not exactly whisper quiet. Using the lowpass filter to cut some highs may be a good idea if you have too much high-frequency hiss.
Secondly, they want to see a high voltage at the input. They only have a 1.4 Vrms sensitivity, and experience and a lot of discussion has led me to want at least a 2 Vrms input, which I get with my Eden Navigator pre-amp.
If input sensitivity is an issue, then consider the Carvin HD2000. I also think it looks better, since it's black. |
Emailed John S and he said they are under warranty and I am sending both drivers (not cabinets) back for repair and matching. Just 4 screws to loosen then pick up. |
Just though that I would jump in on this long running forum..
I am a long standing owner of Ohms starting back in the early 1970 with a pair of Ohm Fs,
Currently using Ohms as my home theater setup with a pair of 300 MK11 as the fronts a 1000 as a center, walsh 4's(rebuilt) as surrounds and micro's as back surrounds...
I am powering the 300MK11 WITH A D-SONIC 600/channel D class amp and the remaining 5 channels with a aragon multichannel 200/channel amp, 2 subs and a onkyo 5508 with sig upgrades by the upgrade co. This is the final result of many different attempts to produce the best home theater sound room (within budget) that I am able to.
As Ohm fans we know how good they are for 2 channel but they are outstanding in a multi Ohm speaker home surround application
Dennis |
Sounds like you did nothing wrong. Dome tweeters are mechanically fragile instruments. |
I was using new balanced interconnects and that made volume louder and punchier. I did not have to turn volume control as high to get prior volume levels |
Right channel clipped on amp (600 watt Bryston) and high frequencies died on same speaker. I did not turn up volume anymore than usual. I never run in clipping. I always turn volume back. I sent John S an email |
Blueranger,
What did you do to make them "blow". What are the symptoms - just no sound? Was there any strange noise just before?
I would call John S. |
I just blew the tweeters on one of my 5000 speakers. Is there a fuse to replace? or do they have to go back to factory. |
My 5000s sit on a suspended hardwood floor. I firmed up the bass considerably by installing 3 FIM pucks shown here:
https://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=325
under each speaker. No other modifications were made or added. Gets rid of vibration and resonance. |
I have been using a pair of Ohm 200 MKIIs in my system for about 12 years. I have made regular upgrades to the system based on my impression of the "weak link in the chain". After each change the Ohms have been fully capable of revealing the improvement in system performance. My last upgrade was the addition of a very high end Thor preamp which made a dramatic improvement. I will be traveling to Montreal this week to retrieve a pair of Classe DR3-VHC super high current monoblocks that I had recapped and have never used. These amps were desinged to drive Apogee Scintillas. I fully expect another huge improvement in system performance. The point of this is that whatever changes I have made, the Ohms have responded and I have never considered them the weakest link. Pretty remarkable for a pair of $2000 speakers. I will probably be considering a driver update, but definitely not replacement. |
On my Ohm Walsh 3's I removed the casters and replaced them with solid rubber footers. Then, because they sit on carpet I went down to Lowes and picked up a piece of solid birch 1" thick which I cut into two 14" squares, after painting them black I installed 1 1/2 spikes.
I placed the new stands where the speakers were previously positioned and put the speakers with their new footers on top (leaving about an inch of clearance). To me the bass sounded noticeably cleaner and more defined, not a night and day difference but better nonetheless. Plus they look a little better to boot. |
Odd note of the day:
After a ton of experimentation with room position, my Ohms ended up sitting atop a pair of subwoofers. The added height seemed to improve imaging and the subs (plus Audyssey) made any impact on the bass output irrelevant. Of course, this decision led to a ton more experimentation: What goes between the top of the subs and the bottom of the Ohms?
I tried tile, marble slabs, wood shelves, with hard cones, soft rubber footers, etc. I ended up using one tick towel per side. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but it seems to damp the vibration from the sub while also keeping the speakers stable.
I understand that this one flies in the face of audiophile dogma, but it worked better than anything else I tried and better than traditional on floor placement.
Go figure.
Marty |
I just got through making a cradle around my OHM 5000's. Let me explain. I have them sitting on 15" X 15" granite slabs and 4 tip toes underneath. Even with the wheels locked they were a hazard of falling off. I have better bass response under the granite. I took a 1 X 6, stained them same shade as speakers and used L brackets to connect. Looks pretty cool. I will post pic later on my page. Has anyone placed granite underneath their OHMs and could they tell a difference? |
Disclaimer: OHMs and Peavey commercial horns are opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of design, but I still would be interested to hear how the Crowns might do with OHMs. From what I read they use some Harmon International proprietary Class D chip circuitry that may or may not be up to the task of driving a less efficient and more difficult load than most pro speakers present. |
