@halcro If they used motors from outside sources to build DD turntables for other companies, they could have done the same thing for DD tables under their own name.....
They didn’t, so I guess you are correct to assume that their heart was with belt drive technology. Even if it didn’t rule the world back then, DD did. Apparently they still do, as the designer of the big Micro tables (can’t remember his name) started TechDas after the rebirth of vinyl. These are again belt drives with more then a hint of the ’old’ technology of tables like the SX-8000mk2. They now seem to have access to vast investment sums, with the AirForce Zero costing a grand or more......
|
why didn’t Micro build DD tables of this quality level under their own name? I don't think Micro Seiki were big enough to invest vast sums in the DD Motor technology that Panasonic, Victor, Pioneer, Kenwood or other Japanese 'Giants' could. Bear in mind that Yamaha used a Victor DD motor.....🤗 It is an interesting question.
Micro Seiki also built Luxman PD-444 Direct Drive Well again.....Luxman got their motors from Mitsubishi whilst Micro-Seiki did the 'cosmetics'. A total 'sub-contract' package.....😝 I think that Micro's heart was really in its belt-drive technology which led the world IMHO. |
Apparently they did, which still leaves my second question: why didn’t Micro build DD tables of this quality level under their own name?
It is an interesting question. Micro Seiki also built Luxman PD-444 Direct Drive |
Okay, so I assume that the high priced 2000X on Hifido recently must have been equipped with the heavy platter and other ’extra’s’. My mistake.
@halcro my first question was to get confirmation that Micro built these tables. Apparently they did, which still leaves my second question: why didn’t Micro build DD tables of this quality level under their own name?
|
Thank you halcro. The following is the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article about the Toyota 2000GT: "The Toyota 2000GT is a limited-production, front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, two-seat, hardtop coupé grand tourer designed by Toyota in collaboration with Yamaha. First displayed to the public at the Tokyo Motor Show in 1965, the 2000GT was manufactured under contract by Yamaha between 1967 and 1970. A halo car for the automaker, in Japan it was exclusive to Toyota's Japanese retail sales channel called Toyota Store." The motor on the GT 2000X does differ to the motor in the 2000 and 2000L. In the 2000X motor motor/ spindle shaft is of a larger diameter plus the phosphor bronze well is commensurately larger. This increase in diameter has NOTHING to do with the heavier 18 Kg platter. It was just a refinement made to the motor in conjunction with the introduction of the premium X model. All GT 2000 series( GT 2000 and GT 2000L and GT 2000X) turntables were designed to be used with the optional 18 Kg gunmetal platter. All of them were standard with the 6.5 Kg aluminium platter (ie despite the uprated bearing in the motor of the 2000X, it came standard with a 6.5 Kg platter). Since so little is known in English about the GT 2000 series turntables it is imperative that what is published is accurate. The Vintage Knob entries have and continue to cause a measure of confusion since many people reference them. People who repeat what they see on TVK add to the dilemma. Others then see the repeat referencing of the TVK mistakes and erroneously conclude that TVK has been corroborated by the 'additional' information. I have seen these falsehoods innocently stated by lew over the years and have repeatedly politely set the story straight. I should not have to do this every time that lew contributes to a GT 2000 thread. I am exasperated that I need to do this again. Enough is enough. |
but I sense a certain discomfort in your words. With good reason @edgewear.....This has all been discussed multiple times over the years but obviously to no-one's benefit. @theophile is frustrated and it's not only this Subject that keeps raising itself endlessly.... All your questions have been answered previously. Please do a Search...🧐 Just to summarise a few points:- - Micro Seiki did most of the build on the deck and tonearms
- Yamaha lured the designer of the Victor TT-81 motor from JVC
- Yamaha commissioned him to design the motor for the GT-2000 based on the Victor TT-81 with its Bi-Directional Servo Control
- The Yamaha GT-2000 motor is essentially a coreless version of the TT-81
- The motor is the same for all the GT-2000 variations
|
@theophile I don't know what's your problem, but I sense a certain discomfort in your words. Repeating 'please cease repeating...' five times?
Anyway, Hifido in Japan offers GT-2000 models for sale on a regular basis, usually priced around $2k. Recently they had the much rarer 2000X on sale at over $6k, which sold immediately. At 3x the price of the 'regular' 2000, one might assume there is a 'difference' to justify this, no?
BTW as you are so keen on having all the facts, can you confirm these tables were built by Micro? Or is TVK entry wrong here as well? Inquiring minds want to know....
|
lewm
"4-30-2020 4:31amA nice GT2000X will be about double the cost of a GT2000 or 2000L. The X version is rare and very desireable, about $4k to $5K, last time I looked. Has bigger motor and heavier platter and better standard tonearm, compared to the GT2000, plus an outboard PS, but some or all of those upgrades were also optionally available on at least the GT2000L. It’s a bit confusing on Vintage Knob. I’d rate a fully equipped X version up with an SP10 Mk3 or Pioneer Exclusive P3."
Lew, please ignore the TVK entry on the GT 2000 series. Forever. Once again the TVK entry is leading you to propound "facts" which are (in fact) unfactual.
It would appear getting straight the information about the GT 2000X and the optional accessories is becoming a regular bete noir for you. So let me remind you, once again, of the fact that the GT 2000X came standard with the same platter as the GT 2000 and GT 2000L. They all came standard with the 6.3 Kg aluminium platter. Pleased consider this fact. Please cease repeating otherwise.
The optional power supply was just that. It did not come standard with any of the 3 2000 models. It was an additional order to getting any 2000. Please consider this fact. Please cease repeating otherwise.
The optional 18 Kg gunmetal platter was just that. It did not come standard with any of the 3 GT 2000 models. It was an additional order to getting any 2000. Please consider this fact. Please cease repeating otherwise.
There was NO option to upgrade ANY of the motors on ANY of the GT 2000 models. Please consider this fact. Please cease repeating otherwise.
Lew, I have outlined clearly these facts on this board more than once for your sake specifically due to your erroneously putting forth fantastic fiction, repeatedly. Please consider these facts. Please cease repeating otherwise.
|
Speaking of GT-2000L, I've read somewhere that the Yamaha GT series of DD turntables were built by Micro Seiki. Can anyone confirm this is a true story?
That would suggest they were also responsible for the GT-2000X, which is generally considered one of the Japanese top turntables, on a par with Sony PS-X9, Technics SP-10mk3, Pioneer Exclusive P3, Kenwood L-07D and perhaps even Denon DP-100.
This begs the question why Micro never built DD turntables at this quality level under their own name. Apparently they were capable of doing such. The Micro DD series had a good reputation, but they were decidedly mid level. Anybody know why?
|
Vac, If you are asking where I saw a nice used Yamaha GT 2000L most recently , it was at Audio Union in Ochanomizu. I buy LPs across the street at Disc Union. Our son lives in Tokyo as a permanent resident, and we visit him at least once a year. But sadly we canceled our trip in April, because of the coronavirus. For new stuff, I have been buying mostly at Yodibashi Camera in Akihabara, just because they have such a huge selection.
|
@s htinkydog. The Nagaoka MP110 is a great cartridge, but if you can get the 150 or 200. |
@lewm : where in Tokyo, Disk Union? Why do I ask? Because I’ve been to several of their locations.
Thanks. |
Call Underwood Hi Fi I'm sure he can give you a great turnable at or around your price.Check it out asap!! |
|
@unison77 - yes it was gigantic and tremendous - my bad - what a great name.
I've bought from Russians and they are very honest and easy to deal with, likewise as @chakster said the russians have a lot of excellent technicians - they didn't lose their machining skills
I got a mint FR64S for about £700 plus postage about 2 years ago |
Chakster: There you go, much better!!!! I’m not looking to build a reference TT. I bet you can’t with $1k, but don;t give up and buy the best you can within your budget. First of all, I’m just getting into vinyl. This is why you need Technics, it can be your last turntable. I still have those pair i bought more than 20 years ago and it’s working as new. It’s a whole new world for me. I was reading about all the adjustments I might have to make and that’s what turns me off, although I’m sure others live for this. Life is easier with Technics and MM or MI cartridges, this turntable is very simple to adjust (VTA on the fly, removable headshell with nice overhang gauge) and it build to last fovever, at least 20-30 years! And secondly, I’m not looking to blow several grand. I’m looking for a good, solid quality entry level unit. I have no plans on upgrading whatever I decide on (that’s what we all say). So I want to get something decent and get it right the first time. Yes, the answer is Technics mk7 ($899) in black or silver. |
hmmmm, lots to think about now. |
I agree, Technics just came out with the 1200mk7.
Get that! It’s under 1k and it’s the original...all around better than the Pioneer and you won’t feel the need to upgrade too soon with a table like that. You won’t regret it.
|
I bought a Yamaha YP-D6 new back in the late 70s. Put it in a closet when I got my first CD player in ‘85. Fortunately I kept all my vinyl. Years later I got the old turntable out and spun some records. Couldn’t believe how good they sounded. Inspired me to upgrade to a Clearaudio Performance DC, and expand my vinyl collection. Still have the Yamaha table, it still works and sounds good, but doesn’t compare to the Clearaudio. |
Had a PF-800 bought for $399 when TT's were considered dead. Sold some years later for $699. Bought a Linn. One item along w/selling a Forte 4A Class A amp I regret.
|
Any opinions on the Fluance RT85, anyone? |
Chakster: There you go, much better!!!! I'm not looking to build a reference TT. First of all, I'm just getting into vinyl. It's a whole new world for me. I was reading about all the adjustments I might have to make and that's what turns me off, although I'm sure others live for this. And secondly, I'm not looking to blow several grand. I'm looking for a good, solid quality entry level unit. I have no plans on upgrading whatever I decide on (that's what we all say). So I want to get something decent and get it right the first time. That's why I'm here, to get good solid opinions and advice. |
@shtinkydog i see, i just updated my post above, more options for you, but $1k is tight budget, maybe step by step ? Technics SL1500c also available in black for $1200 (a complete system with built-in phonostage and cart) .......... or $899 Technics mk7 + better cartridge. |
oh, $450. yeah that's not gonna happen. I'm trying to keep this whole thing under a grand. |
Chakster, I'll look into those. I'm afraid to see how much the "signature" grado will be. |
Alrighty then. I’m gonna shoot for the Pioneer. Now for the cartridge. I see here that the Grado Prestige Black and the Nagaoka MP110 were recommended for this TT. Can anyone describe the differences in these two or recommend another cartridge(s)? The best advice is to ignore the Pioneer and buy a proper Technics MK7 instead for $899 About cartridge: Rare Pioneer PC-1000 MKII cartridge with Beryllium Cantilever would be the best, but definitely not at the price of entry level Nagaoka or Grado. If you want the best from Joseph Grado look for Signature XTZ You will see Pioneer PC-1000 mkII and Grado XTZ on this image from my collection (along with Grace LEVEL II Br/Mr). Pioneer PC-1000 mkII sound is very close to my favorite Stanton SC-100 WOS (another excellent choice). Stanton and Pickering are great for those tonearms. You can ask KAB who service Technics. These are exceptionally good MM cartridges. Never buy any cartridge with Conical tip, this is the worst stylus profile on the planet with shortest life-span, and you will may a lot if you want to re-tip MC cartridges. There is ONLY one reason why nagaoka MP110 recommended for this Pioneer turntable, the reason is cheap price, but if you will read more about stylus profile you will understand why it is cheap. Almost any MM cartridge is perfect for Pioneer or Technics tonearm. There are tons of Technics clones on the market, but if you want the real thing look for Technics instead, the SL1500C comes with cartridge and built-in phono stage if the low price is the key for you! Other companies just steal Technics original design (like new Pioneer). Something else: You can also read what ZU AUDIO posted about $899 Denon turntable on their site. That Pioneer turntable made for DJs as the Pioneer target market is professionals (for decades), DJs have been using those direct drives for a long time, audiophiles joined later with some praise about them for some reason. Technics SL1200GR or even cheaper mk7 are much better than all of them. |
I put a Denon 103R on my PLX1000. It works fine - no problem with the tonearm compatibility! That mc cartridge won't work with your mm phono input. It will require a step-up device - a transformer or an active stage (head amp - like a Marcof PPA-1). I have several SUTs and a Marcof (battery-powered). I just always prefer mc cartridges! But the Grado Prestige Black is certainly a giant-killer for such a low price! |
Why stuck on Yamaha turntables? They are not what come to my mind when I think of a turntable. Why not, if you are set on direct drive, a pioneer or the technics? Pioneer plx1000 can be had for 699 or 599 on sale. The technics (forget the model#) can be had for 999. Also I'd be looking at some used but cared for denon direct drives from the late 80's. Now if you go belt drive, there Is a plethora of great models, some of which can be had for under a grand....pro-ject makes a nice table, as does clearaudio, and of course the rega tables....in fact there are so many really nice turntables for not a ton of money that I'm not certain I understand your delay in getting into analog/vinyl..... |
|
Alrighty then. I'm gonna shoot for the Pioneer. Now for the cartridge. I see here that the Grado Prestige Black and the Nagaoka MP110 were recommended for this TT. Can anyone describe the differences in these two or recommend another cartridge(s)? |
I know the OP is talking about "new" Yamaha TT but a lot of the conversation is about the vintage Yamaha TT from back in their "Glory" years.
I have a Yamaha linear tracker, the PX-3 that is an outstanding performer after a little maintenance work.
It included features such as a coreless motor that Technics finally turned to when designing the new series of SL-1200 TT, only took 35 years to catch up.
Micro Seiki did a lot of the component building on the older TOTL Yamaha TT as well. Micro wasn't known for being a leader in electronics but they could build mechanical components like tonearms and such better than most.
BillWojo
|
|
FWIW, the story behind the name "GT2000" is that Toyota had then recently introduced their top of the line sportscar (which is now a VERY valuable collector item), which they called the "2000GT", because it had a 2-liter motor and was a GT car (2 seats meant for rapid touring). Yamaha just turned it around to get GT2000, so to associate with the Toyota sports car.
|
BTW I have a nice vintage Yamaha belt-drive TT in a wood plinth in my collection. |
The best TT for under $1K is the Pioneer PLX1000. When I wanted to add a new TT to my collection of vintage TTs, that is what I chose! Direct-drive in a very substantial plinth and an excellent tonearm/headshell. There is even a high-quality interconnect included! Add a Grado Prestige Black cartridge ($79) and you'll have a truly excellent vinyl-playback system! PLX1000 - $700 (and free shipping from many online retailers). Check out the review by Herb Reichert in Stereophile from a few years ago! |
@unison77 since the OP asked this question just for fun, the recommendations to buy vintage turntables (Yamaha or anything else) is irrelevant in this thread.
Russian audiophile scene is very strong and a lot of local vendors can restore almost everything. A lot of very rare items are here available for sale (including extremely rare stuff). When you buy anything from overseas (no matter what country) packaging is important not only for vintage gear, but for any audio gear. The art of packaging is the key. Some amateur dealers have no clue how to do that, but professionals can do that very well. |
Yamaha GT abbreviation: GT means Gigantic & Tremendous. |
Re Russian second hand market: they bring Yamaha turntables from Japan (Yahoo or InJapan), with lots of risks involved (technical and cosmetic condition, etc.).
Most of buyers upgrade stock tonearms. I think that Micro Seiki (direct or belt drive turntables) are more popular, with same reservations. |
@yogiboy, Thanks for recommendation and link for Grado cart. I just ordered one and headshell for it. Easy as pie! |
Put a Nagaoka MP110 on it and you'll be a lot better off than on many other cheap belt drives. If it was my money, I'd save for the 1200GR.
|
By "descendant", they mean a copy! It's built to a price. It's very good for the money but it's no 1200. |
Chakster, according to Music Direct, the Pioneer above is a descendent of the Technics, and even betters it at only $700.
Any thoughts? |
Buy Technics SL1200GR for $1700 NEW (or find lightly used for less), do not expect anything else under $1000 will be even close to Matsushita (Made in Japan). This is the best NEW direct drive at this price available today, tonearm is nice too. |
Yogi, thanks! Everyone else, I'm interested in current models only, no vintage. That's why I asked when someone offered the 750/751.
I didn't know that the sub $1k current Yamahas were garbage, according to some.
|
|
shtinkydog OP128 posts04-29-2020 12:18pmMark: Are the p750/751 vintage or current models?
They are vintage turntables. Yamaha doesn't make a decent new turntable in my opinion. except models way over 1000 dollars. I didn't know you asking about new models. New there are so many other turntables better than the current Yamaha models I wouldn't even consider them.
|
The main problem is that the integrated tonearms for these decks were designed for very high compliance cartridges that were all the rage on Japanese consumer decks in the late 70s/early 80s.
This greatly limits the availability of cartridges that will work well on these tonearms. Tons of high compliance cartridges available NOS on ebay from brands like grace, Stanton, Pickering, ADC, Sonus, Sony etc. All of them are MM or MI, some of them are amazing. I'm buying those cartridges myself all the time. |
No, I don't have to buy Yamaha. I was just curious as to why not so much here about Yamaha turntables. |
Can i first say that nobody has a better name for a turntable than Yamaha:
GT - Great Turntable 2000
Secondly, correct me if i am wrong, i think they were developed with Micro Seiki.
All said and done Why not go for a demo of the new yamaha stuff. Do you have to buy Yamaha? |
Hey yogi, i saw that earlier!!! Looks impressive!!! I'll have to buy a cartridge for it.
I just don't know whether it's MM or MC. My integrated is MM.
|
