All wall outlets are current-limited. All you want is a conditioner that has a greater limit. ;-) |
Some definition of 'reasonably priced' might help here.
I've posted several reviews on inexpensive power line filters/conds... among them my exp with the RSA Haley has been best in so far as using a lesser seemingly so, restrictive unit. Albeit, every cond/filter allows current flow through it to the devices attached, up and to it's maximum.
What I suspect you infer is one which does the least damage to the leading edge of musical notes and transients. Correct??
Again, RSA comes to mind... although I'm sure there are others...
'Reasonably priced' however remains a relative item with regard to performance and one's perspective on the price paid for it.
|
I'll second Jim's recommedation of the Running Spring Audio Haley. Great unit for the $$$, IMHO.
Cheers,
John |
I use a Panamax, don't 'member model, but it is near-top of the line and even has an isolation transformer for lo-draw items. There are a brace of hi-current outlets.
That being said, my amp was stifled thru it. Plugging even my modest Rotel RB1070 (130x2@8) was a no-go.
I eventually dropped a line for amps ONLY and use a PS Audio Soloist outlet, which cleans up the power and provides some surge protection without messing up the dynamics. I plug my sub into the same outlet. |
I really don't believe there is a conditioning device out there that doesn't limit current to some degree. I would certainly like to hear it, if such a thing exists. Having said that, conditioners are fine on front end components. Forget about them for amps, tried way too many, sick of trying.
As for choices, who can say, everyone has an opinion. You will have to try a wide variety to get to your personal choice. Personally, I like my BPT 3.5 Signature. |
My recommendation is to have dedicated 20 amp lines run to your outlets (if you don't already), but even more important have your electrician install a dedicated isolated ground and have all your dedicated audio receptacles use this as common ground. |
The RSA Haley did great in my system. These days I'm using a combination of Alan Maher's Power Enhancers. |
True enough,if you use 15a,20a outlet(That's all you'll get)
pre,cdp,dacs don't need much power.Power amps seem to like alot more at times.I'm using Torus and their transformers are huge.If my memory is correct it can give you up to 400a(short term).There is alot of info on the audiocircle site.I use to use Shunyata before and HOLY COW,what a difference the Torus
makes.A huge,huge upgrade.They are pricey(rm-20a-$3200.00,
rm-10a $1800.00.they do have smaller ones also.
I believe you would add up maximum amperage that each component can absorb at full power and divide by 2/3.
For me 5X7Bs=5X16.5a(at full power 4ohms)82a and at 8ohms 41a.
So 2/3 of that is 65a at 4ohms and 27a at 8 ohms.Except for my power amps,I would never sell the Torus,She's too good. |
I also use a few Alan Maher's Power Enhancers. They are great products and one can customize the sound by putting them in various locations.
My only issue with it is that it takes a long time (days and weeks) to stablize the sound. Before it gets stablized, the sound is good one day and bad another.
Every time you power down the system for some time and the stablization process re-starts, which is annoying. |
My recommendation is to have dedicated 20 amp lines run to your outlets (if you don't already), but even more important have your electrician install a dedicated isolated ground and have all your dedicated audio receptacles use this as common ground. |
http://cgi.ebay.com/Isolation-Transformer-240-120-to-120v-4-8-kVa-Rack_W0QQitemZ320283133608QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320283133608&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
There's a 5KVA Topaz listed for $1000 too. |
Dedicated ckts? They aren't the 'end all be all' in providing clean power to componenets. All they do is limit, NOT eliminate, in house 'born' artifacts. Remember, voltage and current need a path to flow. A complete round trip path. The neutral side of the power lines, dedicated or non dedicated, are tied together at the ckt breaker box. Consequently, so is the common or ground leg.
Through those two paths, one more so than the other unless there's some default somewhere, ALL the house power is in the end seeing each other's strengths and shortcomings.
Dedicateds do reduce issues, but they won't eliminate them.
The suggestion of true isolation as said above, by isolating BOTH the neutral, common and powerlegs via Tformer, and iso'd ground is the best bet. Period.
Even still, there can be issues, albeit depending upon the build and design of the iso Tformer, remember, even that is attached to the incoming power line to the home.
I believe that incoming feed is primarily where we get much of the nasties we endure, ignore, or deal with in our audio & video systems.... not from the home itself. Or at least not as much.
That's why so many feel it a more cost effective way to go by using dedicated ckts + a PLC. So unless you're starting from scratch and just now building a dedicated entertainment room, just join the pack and do the now priceier "Agone try & buy shuffle" to find what fits the billet for you and your's. |
The only amp I can confirm likes huge current to be available was my old Carver M400t, the (in)famous cube. It would dim the lights on VERY loud (and or) bass hungry passages. For an amp of 'only' 200x2, it has a quick blow 15amp fuse.
Other amps would be limited by the capacity of there transformers.
Unless you were willing to drop a REALLY big line...like 440v to an equally large transformer, you ain't gonna' get more than about 15amps out of any circuit, maybe 18 out of a 20.
Also, unless you have some kind of stabilized voltage, even that much current is a pipe dream. |
Anyone had any experience with the APC products? They don't seem to be mentioned a lot in threads of this type. |
Vett93,
I don't understand the comment regarding powering the system down. Removing the PEs from the outlet and then re-inserting them will require some break in process to reoccur, but I can't see how powering down the system would affect the PEs. On the other hand the component power supplies, mostly the capacitors may take some time to recharge, thereby causing component break in, but not the PEs IMO. |
Vett93
The PE does not experience constant break in after it has stabilized on the circuit. Average break in is between 8 and 12 days pending model. I agree with Clio09, it sounds like you are experiencing the EL caps in the component power supply re-stabilizing / recharging, this is normal and heard in filtered and non-filtered circuits.
Regards
Alan Maher |
Is this unique to me? I have APC power line conditioner for my HT, Shunyata Guardian for my 2-ch audio, and 4 PEs and one PE V S/AC. I have found the system took a week to restablize in the following occasions:
1. We went out of power for about 15 seconds one day.
2. When I am away for days, I power down the APC that has 1 PE on it, switch off CD player, and unplug the power cord to my power amp. My power amp is in stand-by mode when I switch it off and still consumes power.
I asked Alan on AudioCircle why it would take days to stablize, and I believe he said that PE would interact with the power supply. Did I mis-understand it? |
Vett93
This appears to be unique to your situation, when power is cut from the PE, APC, Shunyata Guardian, or the S/AC. each will require a re-stabilization period, but so will all other filter designs, including ferrite and choke based parallel designs. Cutting the power to the APC with the PE installed is no different from unplugging the PE or the APC from the wall. The APC by itself, without other forms of added filtering, will go through a re-stabilization period as the EL caps in the power supply charge. Circuit re-stabilization for any power supply is normal, component or PLC
for example lets say you own a balance power unit...the transformer inside the PLC takes 14/15 days to re-stabilize, pending the max amperage of the transformer vs. circuit size vs. system min and max constant draw pending amp and tv design. Component power supplies also go through a re-stabilization phase every time power is cut, normal power supplies take 48 to 60 hours pending the size of the power supply to re-stabilize, this is why manufactures mention a conditioning/break-in period when the component is first installed, it doesnt really matter what you label the interaction, adding any capacitor based power supply to an inductance based circuit is bound to create resistance in the form of odd harmonics, or in worse case scenario voltage drops until the capacitance, inductance, resistance balance of the circuit levels out and creates a stable magnetic field within the in-wall wire geometry, so to answer your question. it's not the issue that the interaction is unique to your situation, what you have to come to understand is that it's normal to experience a harmonic swing every time the system is unplug the from the main. Another thing to take a look at is added components to a stable circuit, adding anything from a DVD player switch mode power supply, to a pc UPS, to a digital alarm clock, to a lamp with a 40 watt+ bulb, will swing the circuit for a period of time until the circuit magnetic balance, were talking about the circuit electrical center of the in-wall wiring, re-stabilize and lowers harmonic ringing.
The basic PE design, like many other products, lower circuit inductance in order to damp the circuit, lower RF and EM interference, increase power factor correction, and control circuit ringing created by everything installed. All power supplies, including the APC and Shunyata , communicate to one another via circuit/capacitance leak back to the wall. In most cases the capacitance value of the leak is incompatible with other circuit/power supply design leakage, thus the continued search for audio nirvana, but the PE puts an end to the leakage incompatibility problem/circuit crosstalk by retuning the circuit through strength and frequency coverage. The distance strength of the PE basically overwhelms the power supply, circuit in-wall wiring, and component power cord wiring. The frequency bandwidth of the filter neutralizes odd harmonics created by circuit crosstalk, including non-a/v circuits. The PE also retunes the component power supply, including the APC, so all components ring at the same frequency, this is important, it is the best way to lower circuit feedback noise, interaction between components, and damp RF/EM fields. The side benefit of this type of filter design is a user tunable circuit, but that is a different topic that should be reserved for another day.
Regards
Alan Maher |
When I suggest reasonable price I am simply using what I have spent on other components in my system, Magnepan speakers, Sunfire amp, Sunfire pre, Acurus cd, Rotel DVD, Kimber cables and so on. Personally for me $1000+ is just too much for a power conditioner. I could see spending $400-$500 on a nice used conditioner, but I am a bargin hunter by my nature and like the hunt of searching out killer deals on all my audio.
Thanks for the thoughts so far. |
I could see spending $400-$500 on a nice used conditioner This could get you a new APC H15 conditioner that is rated around 1.5 KVA and which as been tested to ensure it can deliver high current to power amps and UL rated to boot. Although this APC is an industrial pengineering company used by IBM/Sun/Oracle/Google and many others for data servers - this particular model has been deliberately designed for audio applications. Apparently they saw a market niche where profit margins are very high and all they had to do was reconfigure their design. Since they manufacture huge volumes of these power conditioning devices for industry I suspect you get amazing value that would not be possible if they just served teh audio market. |
Care buying a used Power Conditioner is urged. The MOVs, Metal Oxide Varistors, used to shunt power to ground can do so only so many times than are 'worn out'. I would tend to avoid a used conditioner, except perhaps, in the case where NO surge protection is provided.
Other surge protection schemes, like a whole house unit, may have a better lifespan. |
Hi Nissan- take a look at the Furutech E-TP80. This is an exceptionally good 8 outlet power conditioner that does not limit current, is well made and is very reasonable in price ($500.00 new). You should be able to try this at home from someone like the Cable Company that offers home auditions just to hear if it meets your needs. |
I agree with Magfan, when purchasing a used conditioner with protection, the MOV's do wear out over time. So I would either look for a used conditioner with NO surge protection or buy a new one with surge protection. In your price range, you should probably consider a new Monster EP3650 or a Tara Labs AD/6.
Personally, I'd go for the Tara Labs AD/6, which IMHO sounds better. However, Monster does a great job standing behind their product. I shipped a HTS3500 once, and it was damaged in shipping, Monster sent me a brand new one....no questions asked.
Cheers,
John |
FWIW, Several of the suggestions do not regulate the output voltage from main
swings like the APC H15 does. This means if power sags during heavy loads or
when your AC comes on then these devices will not boost the voltage output to
compensate. Sagging voltages is one of the reasons that electrical equipment
can end up having a short life - in some cases it may even affect performance.
(The H15 is actually the basis for a Rotel conditioner RLC-1040.)
Why spend $500 just to get a glorified power bar with MOV's and filters when
you could buy something serious (even at this entry level price). |
For various ..... political .....reasons, I'd avoid Monster.
My Panamax is decent, good protection levels, several zones and an isolation transformer. Also protection for phone and small dish / cable. AND, as if that wasn't enough, a volt and amp meter a small work light (flex) and 12v control. |
Look into the Equi=Tech Q series balanced power conditioners. I have experimented extensively with balanced power, trying various isolation transformers from the major transformer manufacturers. For the past 4 years I have been using a DIY balanced power conditioner with separate trsnsformers supplying my analog and digital components. I am using an Equi=Tech Q type isolation transformer for the analog components. I experience no current limiting, and there is a clearly noticeable improvement in my amp's low-end performance. I can't imagine ever going back to plugging directly into the wall. |
