No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
I have tried many cables to drive modified Magnepan MG IIIa’s with a Pass Labs 250.5. The best so far are DIY five foot cables made with 16AWG .999 pure solid silver inside 1/4” poly sleeve connected directly without termination to amp and speakers. The two leads per side are keep 2 1/2” apart from each other in a ladder design. Every 12” a three each piece of plastic plumbers strap is fixed to the cables with zip ties to keep the cables apart. Total cost: under $7 per foot ($70 for for two five foot cables). The sound is holographic. Best bass these speakers have ever produced. Very revealing mids and highs, particularly with DSD recordings.
Mr. maplegrovemusic
Thanks. They do not get specific, of what that resistance is or what is the cable length. However, digital amplification (D class) have a different nature of it's output model (electronics) than A/B Class amplifiers, that are most common. Tube amplification is also very different, mostly have high output resistance (relatively to A/B class) or low DF. Athe calcualtion also do not apply to non coil speakers (as ribbon or electrostatic).
@steve cham -- true. But if the solder or soldered connector brittle, cracked or oxidized, the pins are oxidized or wobbly, or the metal mismatched then you can get plenty of degradation in sound. It's happened to me and some serious pros in a neurobiology lab. Tens of dollars isn't going to beggar anyone.
Mr. stevecham I would not recomand of a "1 inch square (cross sectioned), or other rectangular profile, six nines, pure copper bars". It is not flexible at all. What is your guide to end up with that kind of wire? What amp, speaker and distance? Getting a thicker than 12-14 AWG connected to the amp and peaker, requires a short wire that would fit into a banana plug. Ther are such, that can use up to an 8 AWG wire (better than 12-14 AWG). Such ending, can be done for up to 4xo AWG (214 mm2 = 0.33170066340133 sq in). Thats a lot!
b4icu- Here is a link to a interview with a amp designer. At the 22 minute mark he discusses they have designed a speaker cable that is the correct impedance for their Ion digital amplifier . Your statement above and now watching this video , this is the first I have ever heard anyone mention this . You are onto something here .
Mr. stevecham
Thanks for reading, but I'm concerned the way you do it... I wrote that "
The electronic point of view, of looking at the electrical current loop of an amplifier, speaker and cables, the speaker cables are an extension of the amplifier ". Let's say you have an Amp. with a DF of 500. What it means, is that the Amp.'s output resistance is 8 ohms / 500 = 0.016 ohms. If you add your 8' 12 AWG copper wire, it is equivalent to: 0.0256 ohms. (it is by the AWG table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm - using the feet raw, and do 16' as it is 8' for the red, 8' for the black = 8' *2=16' we end up with this 0.0256 ohms. Your cable have a 1.6 times higher resistance than what your amplifier's DF has. This is like degrading your amplifier's spec. to a DF of only 205. The other 300 were desmissed to a time the speaker cables get better. You call it
INSIGNIFICANT! (?) If you would have a tube amp. like the Vtl 250 mono blocks, with an output resistance of 0.86 ohms, you would be right. But with a DF higher than 100, your cable are no Transparent Cables, as Mr. chayro, try to claim. They are far from being perfect. They are most likely holding back your system's performance, by 60% or more. If you have spent $10k on your system, try to go ack to the genius who sold you this speaker cable, and try to get a refund of $6k, as that kind of money was spent for nothing. As long as you come up with says that do not rely on some calculations, but only on some bold assumptions based mainly on "Nothing", you can not keep up in this conversation.
Even if could connect our amp to speaker terminals with 1 inch square (cross sectioned), or other rectangular profile, six nines, pure copper bars with only air as the dielectric, there would be NO improvement in sound. None, zilch, zip. Arrrgh!
morg111, invective aside, is a truth-teller. The article he cites, http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm, is science combined with common sense, and a real money-saver. All that said it makes sense to take care (or pay some company some tens of dollars to take care) with the end connectors to amp and speakers.
+1 morg111! What the heck b4icu is spouting is NOT SCIENCE!
Example (one of many): "Unfortunately, most speaker cables are of 14-12 AWG and with some length from 8' to 24'. For the length, by increase the length from 8' to 16', in order to keep the same resistance of a cable, the cable's cross-section needs to double. For 24' length it needs to triple and so on."
No. That is not correct.
And the cable does not contribute to the Damping Factor (DF).
Resistance in an 8 ft length of 12 AWG copper wire is INSIGNIFICANT!
I believe Transparent Cables does just what you ask - they take all of your equipment parameters and calculate the "perfect" cable specs for you. See? Your search is over.
This has got to be one of the dumbest threads ever created around the subject of cables.
I read through every single post, holding back laughing and crying the entire time. The OP of this thread doesn’t have the first idea about the science behind the transmission of amplified sound. Instead of wasting my time explaining to you all what is wrong with these posts... you can start down the road of real understanding by reading this- http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
All this is eye-of-newt-and-toe-of-frog. Get good, rationally-engineered, not-too-expensive cables (I use Blue Jeans), and keep them matched in length and reasonably short.
I would like to make myself clear about the speaker cables:
Speaker cables were never tackled by the audio industry properly. They've
been over looked or got a magic approach, rather an engineering approach. Bad
for all of us.
The roll of speaker cables is to connect the amplifier and the speakers.
But not only. It is also to extend the DF of the amplifier. The higher is the
DF the better. However, the speaker cables needs to be also better (lower
impedance). There is a relation between the two. This relation can be
calculated, as per the cable's length and their gauge.
Any approach that goes with an empiric "try and error" is
mostly of people who do not understand the technical side of this subject. Others
have a business oriented interest to keep the crowd in the dark and feed it
with confusion. The less the customers know or understand, the better it is for
their business. They can tell fairy tales and sale their products well. Some audiophiles
are so deep and badly embedded in that crap, that it will take a brain surgery
to get rid of that.
For those who think that those wire tales of gauge vs. length on the web
are helpful, or that they can keep the "try and error" approach, with no
particular formula to get closer or zoom in toward a desire result, rather than
try to understand and use some science and sense - this conversation was not
for them.
For those who may accept that there is a physical (electrical) relation
and it can be calculated and implemented, it may be a significant way to
improve their sound. Unfortunately, most speaker cables are of 14-12 AWG and
with some length from 8' to 24'. For the length, by increase the length from 8'
to 16', in order to keep the same resistance of a cable, the cable's
cross-section needs to double. For 24' length it needs to triple and so on.
The electronic point of view, of looking at the electrical current loop
of an amplifier, speaker and cables, the speaker cables are an extension of the
amplifier. Actually it is an extension of its DF or output resistor. When using
that for the analysis, the speaker has almost no significance, as what its
impedance is. It has significance for the amplifier, as of what power it needs
to drive: low impedance and low efficiency requires more powerful
amplification. Those usually come with higher (and better) DF. That calls for a
thicker and lower resistance speaker cable. For most, at a time they are ready
to accept the extra expanse on amplification, the speaker cables are way over
looked. It is a sad decision as the optimal performance of that system is now
limited and held back by the poor speaker cable.
People that were using 12-14 gauges, 12' long cables, when replacing it
with the right cable as for their equipment (0 gauge and just 8' long for
DF=500) the sound had improved significantly. This particular example reflects
an improvement of x25. It is a tremendous sonic difference.
Sometimes, you hear that say, that at a certain level ($) of a sound
equipment, you need to double the budget to get as much as 10% improvement. This
is a classic case of a better amplifier with even better DF, without taking in
consideration the speaker cables. Now it all the sudden has a mathematical
explanation, to support the say.
Mr. stereofro10 I'm sorry for you that after my effort to pass you
an
insight, you got it all wrong. I see that the say: "It is hard to teach an old dog a new tricks", is true!
"
Doing it with engineering skils is another. I only say that with the engineering skils, you can reach the optimum first time, every time. The listening way, of try and error could be longer, nor promising an optimum result. You may alway assume there is one better out there that would upgrade your sound, without knowing, you are already there and nothing will make it better - only worse. This is the fee of ignorance."
That is absolutely ridiculous. My ignorance is continuing to engage in this silly thread, until now ...
If 10 people listened live to leaves rustling on a brisk fall day, would all 10 report the same sounds? Would they all pickup the faint sound of a wind chime in the distance? Could they all hear the same birds chirping?
I say they would all have similar, but different listening experiences based on focusing on individual things. One may focus in on a bird chirp because they are familiar with that species, another might dismiss that as noise and focus on something else. Do you see where I am going with this?
How do you measure that? Music has the same effect on the ears, people hear different things, they focus on different aspects. How do you measure that?
Measurements are only a small part of the whole system and listeners that have experimented with all that has been mentioned in this thread, like to use all the different types of cables & tweaks to create the sound they prefer. You are not going to change anyone’s minds here. Your argument has been around for decades and ad nauseam on these type of forums.
One can’t listen to cables. I listen to my system with different cables as they do or don’t sound right to me. Cables have no sound, they only contribute to the system’s over all sound, good or bad.
Mr.
grannyring For the
3x0 AWG
suggestion: My suggestion was for 3 AWG at 8'. You require 20'. That increases the cable resistance by 3 and if you go to the guage table it calls for a 3 times 0 AWG to keep it the same as a 3 AWG of 8' long. That's Ohms law. I only use it for this suggestion.
Regaring Mr. Dill's remark of what he can hear, no one's ears can replace measurment instrumentations nor engineering calculation. Whatever you like it or not, Audio precision, HP and more are still in business. If ears would do, we would not need them. What you can hear? As you had tried in a blind test listening to all cables from 14 AWG to the 4x0 AWG and your ears pointed towerd a 12 AWG 99.9% pure cooper with cryo and burn in...? Now you can hire this service, as the standard listening to IEEE.
But we have been enlightened grannyring. The measurements have been made and need to be adhered to for the best sound, that's it. There can be no more improvements. Bottom line, don't listen to your ears, listen to those measurements. What a crock ...
My ears have heard it over and over. That simple. So obvious as to make the truth of it most secure. Your methods do in fact point to much thicker gauge than normally used in nearly every instance. Look at your suggestions here for proof. 3x0 AWG in my system! Oh my!
Mr. grannyring I feel like my idea was not thoroughly understood. It is not about thickening the wire, the thicker - the better. It is about doing an engineering calculation, that is based on the equipment spec., to specify the precise guage your system requires. In some cases, getting closer to that guage would get a better sound, but after reaching that gauge, getting thicker with the cable, will not add quality, only get more expensive. This is not like tuning in with endless try and error, as it is mostly done today. Your chaise after a specific cooper wire, is not the point. You are captive of cable’s manufacturers promo, with promisses that are not helping your sound getting any better. It is only the product getting more expensive. It is an awful VFM.
Regarding your say on Burn In and Cryo, let me get a bit humoristic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0 It would get you an idea, what I think about those subjects. Especially at 02:05.
Burn In:
A cooper wire with some soldered ends does not need any burn in. What is it good for? Well, if a dealer had demonstrate or/and sold a cable, for some $3,000.- US plus. And unfortunately, that is not delivering the promised superiority.
What that dealer or sales person can say?
"It will open up and sound way better after a burn in".
Most customers have nothing to say against this argument that have been common and accepted for no particular reason. It is taken for granted. For the sale process, it is done and dusted. Good for the dealer, not so good for the customer. He was satisfied by a fishy story over a good product.
Why playing some music at low volume with those cables, hooked up 24/7 for a week, would do the job better, than giving it a jump start to a car or a truck and get the same amount of current flow in less than a minute?
Why would element 29 (Cu) change conductivity properties, over othre metals in this table? Did anyone tested a cable befor and after to say what changed regarding conductivity? For all those says (skin effect and others) to get some nderstanding won’t hurt. None been explained nor proved by an experiment.
I’m happy we don’t live in
times of the Maya empire. That could have end with a human sacrify! on the subject...
I am open to new ideas and do find your ideas interesting. When I say I may disagree I am referring to your chosen cable quality, burn is reality and cryo treatment. Burn in is real and cryo can indeed help the sound. I tend to agree that heavy gauge is usually a plus, not always however. Depends on the rig and listener sonic priorities.
Mr. grannyring, you say: "Based on your way of thinking, which I don’t agree with totally, " It is up to you to accept or decline my say. Please be kind to acknowladge me when and if you get any (other) explanation or way to calculate a speaker cable. As far as my search reached, there is nothing else out there. Most just embrace the usual: high purity cooper (in electricity nothing is made under 99.5%) creyogenic treat, bi wire, burn in, or exotic snake oil :-) All non sintific says, that never convinced me to solve the relations or get the true answer. So, good luck with that.
Mr. sejodiren says: I use jumpers for my speakers. who needs banana plugs... Enjoy. The contact with the clamps of the jumper cables are at a very little area. A good banana plug is way better on contact. also less risky if it disconnects or the red wire touchs the black...
The link goes to a 4 AWG cable that claims 500A. by the guage table, a 4 AWG can conduct only 60A cont. or 135A momentary. Just for the record, not that you need that high current. I also do not like that they are molded in two parallel lines.
Your Amp. is class D (Digital PCM). No DF or output impedance is provided: http://lyngdorf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/tdai-2170-owners-manual_v17.pdf The 30A output is the only clue but not good enough. Speakers: conventional coil loaded. Ok. As so, I'll do an assumption, that the
Lyngdorf 2170 have a DF of 250. For 20' a 3x0 AWG might be required. For an 8' a 3 AWG would do.
The cables you are using, are too long to my like. I understand your managment desire and other esthetic issues. Fire place steals the mid placment option of the Amp. between the two speakers.
Use what ever cable you think is good for you. The one I used had excelent results. You are welcome to take your favorite.
I understand completely OP. Just looking generally at this topic.
20 feet long. Must run cables under the house to keep it clean looking per wife. Fireplace in the center. Lyngdorf 2170 and Dali Epicon 6. I make cables and do mods as a part time gig.
The 2170 is not going ever 🙂
Based on your way of thinking, which I don’t agree with totally, I would need thick gauge. I use 7 AWG now. It comes down to personal preference and listening. However I am always open minded and willing to experiment. You need better conductors than your chosen cable in my opinion. Copper clad aluminum is not as good as I would desire. Thus my post here.
Mr. grannyring What equaipment are you going to connect, and how long your cable is going to be? I’ll repeat my say: not all need a 0 AWG! some don’t need a thick cable at all, some do, some need it even thicker. It better be calculated. It would be a dissapointing DIY project to end it up with no actual sonic benefit. I’m not saying go 0 AWG it’s the best! I’m saying let’s calculate (engineering!) the right cable and than get it, the first time right.
Been reading this and find it interesting. I would buy a tinned finely stranded pure copper 0 gauge wire which may actually sound great based on my experience with stranded tinned copper wire from Duelund, Western Electric and Supra. Such wire is available using oxygen free pure copper. Not sure how I would terminate just yet.
Going back for a minute to the JPS cable Add.: http://www.jpslabs.com/aluminata.shtml Even though it is a power cable, they state: 60A and 14,000W and 250A and 48,000W. Absolutly impressing... By the AWG standard (https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm) a 60A requires an 8 AWG and 250A a 000 AWG (50% thicker than a 0 AWG. Two are required and a GND). None would fit into that cable, even it looks really thick. Do you see the nylon sleev? It’s for you not to see what is beneath it. However, the IEC standard 60906-2 (2011) limits the power to 20A. Older versions are up to 15A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country Any liscenced electrician would tell you that. What they state is not legal. That would end with burned or melted pins on the plug. A house line is also limited and even the 60A needs a 3 phase instalation. The plug showen is for 1 phase. A long story is told there, without any sense to back up the price (?). I'm just trying to show you guys, what is going on in this dubious industry. My question, is what is that good for? So is the thing with speaker cables. They will tell you a lot to keep a friday night conversation on the subject, to keep you happy, but not much of the most important and required properties.
Sorry, I have no picture of that taken. I'll try to explain. The ideais to use a short 8 AWG (the thickest wire that can fit into the banana plug) that is going between the banana plug and the 0 AWG cable. As I said in one of my posts, an 0 AWG can not be soldered. It takes to long till the tin melts. By the time it does, the plastick sleve is damaged and a significant part of the cable's adge is subjected to oxidization. I use a cable shoe to fit (DIN 70 size) and crimp it with a 0 AWG crimping tool. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DROF-Mechanical-crimping-tool-for-10-to-2-0-AWG-6-to-50-mm-Made-of-Steel/16...
The 0 AWG is kind of difficult to work with. every step that would be eassy with an ordinary wire (up to 12 AWG) is getting bulky.
I do not use spades. They are not good for contact (it gets lose in time) and every here and there it need's to be fasten. An endless maintenance.
If you are into make one for yoursrlf, I may offer you that service.
b4icu, would you like to show us the naked termination going from the 0 AWG cable to the spade or banana connector? I would like to see how you did that. Thanks!
Just seen this add. on this site: http://www.jpslabs.com/speakercable.shtml For jps cables. Not a word on any technical data: resistance, for what equipment they are good for...They do talk about a lot of power (Watts) or current (Amp’s) and a shield for speaker cables: What is that good for, at a time the Amp. output resistance is less than 0.016 ohms (FD=500). This is more like a short circuit. Any one who knows a little in electronics, can tell you it won’t pick any noise. And the output signal is relativly large. They look awsem. I can give them that. Put them a silk tie or a dress and they are ready for a graduation party. Is it important to look that good or is it important to fit the system or produce a btter sound? Somthing must justify the price...So lets do them look good.
Mr. Dill This banana plug is as good as it gets. A friend who was a QA at a large hi-tech firm checked the subject and ended up with those over all others. The tip is making a way better contact (felxibility and surface ares), than other methodes. It also last longer and can connect directly to an 8 AWG wire. Thicker than most others would. They can get wires only as thick as 12 AWG.
Regarding the cable, it might be some better or more expensive stuff out there. However, the calculations and the results, show no complains. Why pay more? much more? What is the market price for a 2.5m (8') long, 0 AWG speaker's cables set? The last I've hurd of, made by a respected brand (!) was $32,000.- for a 4 AWG. They have on the TOTL a 0 AWG too. I assume it is even more expensive. I can get it done and shipped for way less, including an accurate calculation for the best required cable for the system.
Expensive is not a better quality. On a market, that two items will deliver the same, the cheaper will prevail.
Regardles of experience, NONE came out with the answer: How to calculate a speaker's cable, or even a clue of what cable is needed. I understand it is hard to admit such a thing, at a time claiming of so much experience. The other ideas were much of let's give it a try and hear if we like it. Not a sucssesive way to get it right on the first trial. If having experience like that count's I'm out. But I think, it doesn't! What is a very experienced member? 10 years, 20 years, 30 years...of
experience? I've 45 years. I'm in this hobby since i was 15. I orgenized 6 audio seminars, demos, lectures, on the 3rd, Mr. Yair Tamam, founder of Magico speakers gave a speach on speakers...and the list goes on and on. Experience alone, wont help. Some education in electronics, working with the top Hi-Tech firms, using the ears and mostly what's between them - is more important. The problem (understanding the way how to calculate the speaker's cable by the equipment it connects) is solved. Now it is only for you and other members to accept. Thanks.
"Mr. Dill, this is not the one you address (Amazone). It is a good 0 AWG cooper wire."
- Do the research, I did, your wire is: Audiopipe HWY 836 USA Standard O Gauge Primary Wire PW-0. Audiopipe offers several different gauges of this wire and they are all copper clad aluminum.
"I’ll tell you a secret: All cables are having a nylon sleve over, for a reason: So no one can see what is beneath it. No one will cut a cable that cost’s a leg and an arm to check it. The cable they use, is no better."
-Not true at all, many of us have done just that. I have re-terminated many cables, speaker, interconnect & power cables. BTW: There are many better banana plugs available, however it seems you are stuck at a price point so you won't consider anything more expensive. Stop acting like you know everything, there are many very experienced members here.
Mr. douglas_schroeder I oppened this disscusion on speaker cables. Please let's keep it clean from other cables. Thanks.
What I think about the subject? The power cord has no significance at all in Audio. It is the last 3’ you tackel, while many are barried in your walls all the way to an AC distribution box and beyond. No one had shown any scintific avidance, of any advantage of one power cord over the other. Tell me pleas, if you use a TOTL US $1,000.- power cord connected to your cattle to boil some water, would it make a better tea? I don't think so. You better use some AC filters, if you live at a place that your mains are noisy. That also may do some ON/OFF turn sequence, to guard your speakers from clicks if any.
Mr. Dill, this is not the one you address (Amazone). It is a good 0 AWG cooper wire. I’ll tell you a secret: All cables are having a nylon sleve over, for a reason: So no one can see what is beneath it. No one will cut a cable that cost’s a leg and an arm to check it. The cable they use, is no better. Some are way wors.
Nakamichi banana: The Nakamichi banana plugs are the best of all I tryed. The part that goes into the binding post, has the best contact area. The same is used in labs. It also can hold wires up to 8 AWG. No other do. CHORD COMPANY SPEAKER CABLE 4MM BANANA PLUGS (SET OF 2) use the same: http://www.analogueseduction.net/banana-plugs/chord-company-speaker-cable-4mm-banana-plugs-set-of-2.... The Nakamichi are better,
The actual cable, is more than the sum of it’s parts. The genuin testemony of my friend (no commercials) is peaking for itself. Even I was surprised for the good. It simply works and do a big change.
PS. No thanks for solving the attached pictures issue on this site/forum?
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