Newbie Looking for Advice on Streaming Music
Here is a list of Audio gear that Tidal supports, e.g built in support I think http://tidal.com/us/download |
I I will recommend starting from functionalities and end up with products. Do you want Roon? Then certain products are recommended. Do you want Tidal. Likewise. Are streaming from a computer or phone? To a HiFi? Multi room? Just at home or also mobile? Personally I wanted streaming to HiFi and from my phone and I wanted it from router connected by Ethernet and with my phone as remote controller. I wanted Tidal as primary source. I did did not know about Roon at the time and opted for a HiFi setup at home and a all-in-system in my summer house and iPhone streaming on the go. As all is based on Tidal I selected streaming products with Tidal build in. |
Yes, the Synchro-Mesh can be ordered with 24/96 or 16/44.1 output. Any sample-rate up to 24/192 at the input works. This will reduce the jitter to 18psec and your AN DAC will love this. I highly recommend at least putting my Standard BNC cable with RCA adapters on the output side of the Synchro-Mesh. Actually best if used on both input and output, but you can use any cable you already have on the input. See: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154918.0 Steve N. |
Buy an Intel NUC kit with a suitable sized HD and Windows 10. Add JRiver for music management. Buy an external DAC. Schitt Audio has a great variety from a $99 Modi2 to a $2400 Yggy. I had the Bifrost Multibit and it was very good for $600. Control JRIver from any cheap android tablet. Here is a NUC you may want to consider... https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAA0S6135083 Plus now you have a fully functional Widows computer. You can load any other software you want to on it. |
Just a quick update for all the other "newbies" like myself. $35 Chromecast got connected to my Wadia 781i working as a DAC, streaming Tidal from iPad in Hi-Fi (Master Quality is on my to-do list, any tips will be greatly appreciated! Maybe it needs MQA decoder?) sounds pretty decent, now I am considering signing up with Tidal for another 3 months of free streaming... |
Got it! I will use iPad instead of Win7, Many Thanks!!! I just noticed that Tidal gives Master Quality option only thru its desktop app. But Tidal/Desktop does not connect to Chromecast. "cast" option becomes available only when Tidal is launched from under GoogleChrome. Bummer!! And to make Chromecast work with iTunes or JRiver will be a separate headache... |
In terms of streaming you are fine, esp. if you use the Chromecast's digital output. Its digital output has been shown to be bitperfect, and bitperfect is bitperfect. That digital output is relatively jittery, but not to the extent that a good DAC could not deal with that. You say you are also streaming from Win 7, I assume casting from a tab in Chrome on the computer. Sonically that is inferior to using the tablet or your phone to cast. |
Quick Question to all "in the know". Since yesterday I am using $35 Google Chromecast dongle to stream Tidal from iPad or Win7 into my Naim Audio stereo. Once I get mini-Toslink cable, I will use Wadia 781i as a DAC. Any comments on the benefits of getting more expensive "streamer" (I am more than happy with Wadia's DAC!) will be considered. Million Thanks!! |
Hello Don Blackie a great streamer eith excellent dual dac Wolfsons best dacs in the Lumin D-1 , the New D2 has a built in power supply , the D1 allows you to buy a seperste Linear power supply of your choice . Which I did and is a Huge improvement across the board , better fuses,and power cord Mike st audio Archon very helpful Even after the sale which is Very helpful when learning the Excellent Lumin app. For under $2-k without the upgrades and still sounds very good Analog sound comes to mind, and has Room, as well as Tidal with MQA- high res capabilities. |
@audioengr Hi Steve I was looking at the Synchromesh on your site and I think I am reading this right. There is an option for an output that down-samples to 16/44.1 correct? My DAC just does redbook and I have issues when inadvertently streaming MQA albums through Tidal so if that is in fact the case I would fine that very useful. Thanks! If relevant streamer is an Auralic Aries Mini to an Audio Note DAC-3 signature. |
I personally think MQA is bogus, but if others prefer to believe otherwise that is up to them. Similarly I do not believe streamers themselves make much of a sonic contribution, if any. If there is one, it is in the DAC. For 16/44 all I can say that that is really not a serious challenge anymore for remotely decent DAC chip sets. So as long as streaming Tidal etc is only 16/44 there is little point in worrying too much. For most people a DAC with variable ouput is a great pre amplifier, unless you insist on an analogue input (but for those there is e.g. the Marantz HD DAC1, plus of course the Benchmark DAC3 in a different price bracket). |
I may have missed it somewhere along the way here, but a significant consideration with respect to the Bluesound that has not been touched upon is MQA compatibility. Streaming Tidal MQA is a real treat. If you want a single box solution with VERY good sound, the Bluesound PowerNode 2 is a streamer, MQA compatible DAC, and amplifier all in one. Amplifier is high quality (NAD). The Node2 has the same MQA compatibility BTW. The Powernode 2 has a subwoofer out (and internal fixed 80hz crossover you can turn on or off). I use it with some nice Monitor Audio Gold 50's and a Velodyne compact sub to VERY good effect. Don't know how you can be up and running MQA with quality amplification any easier or cheaper - while you research separates. You may decide they aren't necessary... |
Steve, shadorne, willemj, Thanks for your discussion here. I’m in a similar situation. I have a W4SDac2DSD, which is not bad, but am looking into what I need to start streaming Tidal, Spotify, etc. I have an old MacMini that I’m using for personal computing (home office) that I may convert to audio-only use. I’ve also been eyeing higher end streamers, and I’ve also been looking at NOS R2R ladder dacs, like Metrum, Denafrips, etc. Any thoughts and discussion are appreciated. |
My integrated, a hegel h360 has an onboard dac but i'm new to streaming and currently run a usb from a laptop to the unit and with tidal's highest res option many songs sound very good but am I getting the most from both formats? 1 being tidal and the other being the onboard dac? a dealer recommends the blue sound into my analog outs which makes no sense to me? Not to me either. The USB interface on most DACs is a weakpoint IME. you have the issues with USB SQ mixed with an unknown USB implementation. I would avoid the analog outs and use your Hegel DAC. The Bluesound would be a good choice if there were features in there that you like ie; player software, user interface and streaming accessibility. I would use the S/PDIF output from it and reclock it with a Synchro-Mesh to lower the jitter. I would use a very good S/PDIF cable, like this one: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0 If you want to improve your USB, then get a Berkeley USB converter and a good S/PDIF cable to your DAC. Get a good power supply to power the 5V in the USB cable, which powers the input side of the converter. This still requires a good player software and a good USB output port to sound decent. All USB ports are not the same. I use Amarra for USB, but Jriver with Ethernet is better. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
gary wrote: @audioengr, for those of us who don’t have an Ethernet-enabled DAC and use a Windows-based PC to stream our song library (JRiver) / TIDAL to a USB DAC using Wi-Fi, is there an Ethernet-based solution - other than buying a different DAC - to reducing jitter in the digital signal prior to it arriving at the DAC? Steve, I know you believe ethernet delivers the highest quality signal, but I’m not able to run a cable from where my router sits to my audio-based PC. I also have my WIFI option that adds onto the Interchange or my Ethernet DAC. Its a 3-box solution for Interchange and WIFI. 2 IEC power cords. I don’t have these on my website yet, but I have had them for 6 months or more. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Just looking at your oscilloscope plots, I would say you have plenty of triggering issues - this would explain why you get bimodal distributions and distributions that look a mirror image of each other. I don’t believe they are triggering issues. The trigger error is something like 1-2 psec. All of my products don’t have the bimodal shape. Even the bimodal is only maybe 10 psec between peaks. Insignificant. I don’t want the DAC in the picture when I’m testing my various interfaces. I want to measure the digital jitter directly. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
My integrated, a hegel h360 has an onboard dac but i'm new to streaming and currently run a usb from a laptop to the unit and with tidal's highest res option many songs sound very good but am I getting the most from both formats? 1 being tidal and the other being the onboard dac? a dealer recommends the blue sound into my analog outs which makes no sense to me? |
@audioengr, for those of us who don't have an Ethernet-enabled DAC and use a Windows-based PC to stream our song library (JRiver) / TIDAL to a USB DAC using Wi-Fi, is there an Ethernet-based solution - other than buying a different DAC - to reducing jitter in the digital signal prior to it arriving at the DAC? Steve, I know you believe ethernet delivers the highest quality signal, but I'm not able to run a cable from where my router sits to my audio-based PC. Gary |
@audioengr Just looking at your oscilloscope plots, I would say you have plenty of triggering issues - this would explain why you get bimodal distributions and distributions that look a mirror image of each other. You would be much better served by analysis of the final analog output of the DAC - any jitter will show up as distortion of the known digital input signal. The APx555 by Audio Precision is designed to robustly test for jitter by injecting known signals. https://youtu.be/2ac1bJih05k |
@audioengr Understood. You seem like someone that is very passionate about this stuff. I like to read about things I am buying so I can understand them better. Understand that you might not be marketing this as a product. If you plan to in the future, put out some literature and let me know so I can do some studying on it before I purchase. Thanks! Don |
You can certainly use WIFI from your latop and even the DAC. The DAC however requires more attention for good results, since it is the endpoint. If you want a WIFI solution that sounds really good, I have one with grounded LPS supply and CAT7 cables as well as an isolator. Not cheap though. You just located this next to your DAC and plug the Ethernet from the DAC into this. It is WPS enabled, meaning that it learns your network and password from your router. Once it learns this, then the network is secure. During the programming, it's not secure. Takes about 5 minutes. WPS I believe is Wireless Pairing System. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@marktomaras Thanks! I have no feedback yet on the configuration since everything is still en route to me. Im literally that new to this hobby. Im sure anything will sound nicer than my 2 sonos Play speakers I currently use to listen to spotify :) Good info on the bridge. I was under the impression I needed to use the RJ45 port on the DAC and hardwire that into my network. Everything in my house is Wireless, router is in a closet and the stereo is going in an area that would be difficult to drop ethernet cable into. But now I see what you are saying. Plug my macbook into the bridge (easy to do) and control the playlist via roon or tidal app. Makes sense. Would be nice to have a solution to where I dont have to plug in my laptop. Thats where I was thinking the chromecast could come in handy? |
No streamer, a computer plugged into the DAC via ethernet cable, and that’s it. You must be using a swap cable to go directly from computer to DAC with Ethernet. Would probably get better SQ using a router with a LPS with earth ground tied to DC common to wire to the DAC. Leakage is a significant problem across Ethernet interfaces. If you cannot do this, at least get a EMO EN-70e isolator and put it in the cable. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I suspect that differences in SQ when changing cables or sources on S/PDIF can be heard in DACs with low J test jitter. I just don't put much stock in this method. I have yet to hear ANY DAC that is immune to jitter on the S/PDIF input. The B/W of AP equipment is insufficient to do direct jitter measurements. I need the 7GHz scope. I like to think outside the box. That is what sets my products apart from the pack. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@audioengr Great that you are measuring jitter, however, you are just using your ears to judge if a DAC rejects jitter and sounds right - in fact you claim that no DACs successfully reject jitter which is counter to several manufacturers claims as well as independent test results ? How do you reconcile your conflicting approach when there already exists a jitter J test which is used by Stereophile and which is part of the measurement suite offered with Audio Precision test equipment(the world leader in audio test gear)? Also I am curious that a jitter expert does not use AP test equipment? Is there a problem with AP equipment also? Just curious because you make many claims but your approach is let’s say - rather unorthodox. |
By the way, doesn’t the direct stream Junior have a built-in PS audio bridge 2? This allows you to stream without the chrome cast. I have an older perfect wave DAC MK2 with bridge Mark 2 and this is the set up I use. No streamer, a computer plugged into the DAC via ethernet cable, and that’s it. I control the system using Roon software, a very good audio control and organizational app. You may be able to use the Tidal app directly with the latest bridge firmware, but don’t quote me on that. i can tell you, my PS Audio Dac sounds far better when using the PS Audio bridge than using USB |
If it were only true, you could get the best DAC on the market for $500. Reviewers would not be giving rave reviews to ladder DACs that cost $10K+ and then buy them for themselves. The thing that motivates people to believe that most DACs sound the same is that the sources that are feeding them have so much jitter. Take the transport for instance: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0 or a Sonos Connect: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154310.0 And then add a S/PDIF coax cable: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0 If these sources are not reclocked, there will be enough jitter to mask most differences between DACs. Add in an inexpensive active preamp, and you have additional distortion, compression and noise that will mask the rest. The good news is that a good reclocker like the Synchro-Mesh can fix this. Also, replacing your active preamp with a good transformer passive linestage like this one will eliminate the active preamp contribution: Every DAC has a different sonic signature. I have been to enough trade shows over 15 years to know this for a fact. And perfect measurements means little. The current measurement suite doesn't quantify dynamic response or jitter properly. New measurement techniques are needed for both of these metrics. This is why I'm doing the measurements above, direct jitter measurements. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
The more power the better, and solid state amps usually perform rather better/more neutral under real speaker loads (see the graphs in Stereophile). Beefy solid state power amps do not need to cost an arm and a leg. This is how I felt, until I was introduced to SET high-power tube amps. My reference I used at trade shows and for voicing was a pair of 600-1000W JC-1 Parasound monoblocks. Very low output impedance and obviously high power. Almost needing two power cords each. Also runs class A for 25W. Then I modded a prototype pair of point-to-point wired SET TUBE monoblocks that output 35W each. The SET tubes outperform the high-powered SS in every way, from high-frequency extension to dynamics to bass extension and tightness. And of course the midrange is more beautiful. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I have no views on the PS Audio Jr other than that it is pretty pricey. I have not seen any proper tests with measurements done with serious lab gear like from Audio Precision. The currently best one on that is probably the Benchmark DAC3. By and large I don't believe there are many meaningful sonic differences between well designed electronics, whatever the subjectivists on this forum want to believe. If there are differences, they are not necessarily for the better (e.g tube sound). The straight wire with gain criterion was met ages ago with solid state amplification, and I am increasingly inclined to believe that the same is now true for DACs. I am using the analogue output of the Chromecast Audio, and cannot hear any issues, even on a revealing system with Quad electrostats. Even if there may be a slight sonic degradation playing 16/44, it must be small, and I am also pretty sure that relatively affordable DACs like the Sonica, the Pioneer U-05 or the Teac UD-501 are as good as it can get. If you look at the measurement data for such DACs, you can see that frequency response, distortion and noise levels are mostly quite a bit better than for amplifiers, so they are not an problem. Electronic perfection has become pretty cheap, and there is nothing more perfect than perfect, given human hearing limitations. Those who believe they can hear differences between electronics are never able to repeat their insights under controlled conditions. With electronics the three things that really matter are: 1 matching gain structure to avoid clipping. An example is the 2.0 Volt rca output of many digital sources and the too sensitive line inputs of many amplifiers. 2 insufficient power to prevent output clipping in dynamic music. In a largish room a few hundred watts per channel will do no harm. 3 load independent flat frequency response. Real speakers have varying impedances along the frequency spectrum, and some amplifiers' frequency response is far from flat under such realistic conditions (see the graphs in Stereophile - the audible limit of non-flatness is about 0.2 dB). Many tube amplifiers are very bad at this, hence their individual sonic signature, which is nothing other than an engineering shortcoming. This is not to say that audio systems cannot be improved, but the weak links are the speakers, with their far bigger deviations from the flat frequency response, and much higher distortion that we would accept from any piece of electroncis. Finally, there is the issue of room interaction. Look at any in room response graphs and you will be horrified. |
One avenue to take is getting a Sonos connect off of craigslist to get a bump start, plug that strait into primaluna . There are about 3 on Denver craigslist from $175 -$250, they should be easy to find about anywhere. That will get you bump started streaming red book quality (16/48 ). This will give you time to survey the landscape. You can upgrade the power cable on the Connect and add a good coax digital cable and still be in for low investment.
Lots of good used DACS on the market so you can start rolling DACS while you still have the Connect.
Then when you find a DAC you like you can upgrade the Connect with the Wyred4Sound mods or dump (Connect) and jump to the Bluesound or something else. Depending on you music taste you might take a look at Deezer and compare to Tidal. Deezer has a very large library of world music vs Tidal. I ran both Tidal and Deezer for a bit and decided on Deezer because the large library. Note: I have not seen the interfaces on other products but the interface and application for the Sonos products is top notch. Support is good as well. I had an issue with dropped connections and Sonos had me run a diag utility within the application. I then called them back and they analyzed the output and detected some disturbance at the bridge. I moved the bridge just a short distance and it cleared the problem. |
See here for a review of the Sonica DAC: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/search?q=sonica Summary: it is a good one with two limitations: the analogue input is less than perfect and there is only one optical, coaxial and usb input each. Try to connect a disc player, a tv and a Chromecast or other streamer and you are one input short. |
I would heartily recomend the Oppo Sonica DAC, I use one from my main Computer / DAW to my Head Amp from USB when mastering CD's and can say I have only good things to say about it. I don't use anything else on it but the USB straight in to the Head amp. It does have the apps for networking and it has a superb volume control which again I don't use but it could save the cost of a preamp and with less electronics in the mix should be more transparent. The DAC chips inside are Sabres and the top ones and they are very well implimented so they give top notch sound but do take a long time to burn in. If you can afford to put the digital output from say a DAB radio trough it for a couple of weeks before you do some really serious listening it will reward you in the end with a really open sound for the money. Good luck, Jim. |
For streaming Tidal, I suggested the Node 2 as a place to start. I believe the Node 2 requires an external DAC which should be purchased commensurate with partnering equipment. If Music Hall has them for $300, a great place to start. I am looking to purchase of a server to for the playback of AIFF files and am considering the Vault 2 which can be used in my secondary system with the internal DAC and in my primary system feeding my Bryston DAC. |
@willemj I appreciate all your input as well as everyone else's on this thread. I used your input to make my next move. I went ahead and purchased the following: Google Chromecast Audio PS Audio Directstream Junior DAC Toslink full to mini cable as I didnt want to mess with hard wiring my DAC to my network and will use chromecast to connect it. Will plug this into the PrimaLuna to start and go from there. |
