I spent the last 6-8 months building a decent (at least to me) system that I enjoy quite a bit. I sold my CD player about a year ago and currently only relying on streaming. I was in the market for a nice CD player but figured why not give this analog thing a shot and see what all the fuss is about. So here we are :)
One thing to keep in mind is that while I might be a total noob when it comes to analog/vinyl, I've been dabbling in audio for almost 15 years and have gone through my fair share of system. So I have a good idea of what I like -- warmth over neutrality, but not overly lush. I like dynamics but not at the expense of timber and tonality. Mostly listen to jazz, vocals, classical, and classic rock. My system includes ...
Sonore opticalRendu streaming via Roon/Qobuz/Tidal Luxman DA-06 DAC Luxman 590AXII Sonus Faber Olympica II
My goal in building an analog rig is to treat it as a journey instead of trying to get to the end game right away. I want to start with buying a turntable and use the phono stage in my Luxman. Just like other things in audio, I suspect there's a tipping point, in terms of dollars, below which you cannot appreciate what analog brings to the table. I know a few folks who bought fairly low end TTs and gave up claiming that vinyl is no better than CDs. I don't know if that really is the case, or they were playing below the tipping point. So the question is where does that point lie? I obviously don't want to start with SOTA turntables but also don't want to cheapen out so much that I'm not able to experience the magic if you will. So now on to some specific questions ...
1. Since I'm starting out, I want to buy used to maximize value and stay within the sweet spot (whatever that happens to be). Good idea? Or too risky given so many moving parts (literally) when it comes to turntables? Is $2500 a decent target for used and 'gentle' introduction? Feel free to suggest cheaper alternatives by all means. At this point, I want to set the bar to a max of $3000.
2. Which manufacturers/models to consider and which to stay away from? I don't want something that's too complex for a newbie. I know that I will be upgrading in the future so something with good resale value would be nice.
3. I've seen some TTs sold without cartridges. Given that I'm totally inexperienced I think I want to get something that includes everything except phono stage. Am I overthinking, or should I be open to buying separately?
4. Finally, feel free to share any obvious do's and don'ts that I should keep in mind.
Look at Thoren. New or vintage. They can be a heck of a bargain and they make some HIGH quality TT if you really want to spend a bundle OR NOT... 400.00 to 8,000.00 or WAY more.. pretty big gap.. LOL
Same with carts.. 200-2500.00 That is my retip Denon (s) to 3 Hand made carts.. Guy in Elk Grove CA 15 year ago..
A lot of options there.. MM, MC, L/H, MI, Tonearm and TT first then match the cart.. Music and type of vinyl to.. OLD mono, mono, new mono, Old stereo, 70s (gets worse) 80s (LPs) got real bad.. NOW... all good again just 10X the price.. for 50-60s vinyl quality. weird!
I protest.. the prices are too high on GREAT vinyl.. LOL
I understand you will be buying records. Cost will vary from, say, $1 to, say, $100, speaking both used and new. Judging by what you said and by the choice of your equipment, you should be happy with Nottingham turntables. But then again, I always recommend them within certain price range. Used table is a gamble to a degree, I bought used here on Audiogon and won.
There is no tipping point. Records are better, period. I’ve written a zillion times how shocked my wife and I both were when I dug my beat up old Technics out of the garage, hooked it up just to see, and heard music far more warm and inviting than my five times as expensive CDP. I’ve also done demo’s and the only ones who ever even hesitate to prefer records are audiophiles. Normal people who know nothing about anything except what they like always prefer records.
But I’m audiophile enough to know where the "tipping point" thing comes from. Digital does a really good job of fooling people into thinking its more detailed and dynamic. Most audiophiles think the only valid comparison is flipping rapidly back and forth between identical snippets of the same track. If that is all you do then the tipping point thing is understandable and easy to explain.
CD is really good at transients and leading edges. Its grainy and coarse, the opposite of liquid. But this grain is easily mistaken for detail. Only the really expensive top end digital starts to approach the naturally smooth liquid ease of vinyl. Records on the other hand, its easy to get a rig that sounds nice and full and warm, but very expensive to dig out all the wealth of rich inner detail (so much you can’t believe!) that lies buried in the grooves.
Because so much of what we hear is digital, and because everyone has been indoctrinated to the fantasy that digital is flat and neutral and perfect, it is by default what most think of as "good". Well if that is your standard, all that etched exaggerated detail, its going to take a pretty darn fine rig to get there. At that aspect of it, anyway. At warmth on the other hand, forget about it.
This is where the snippets come in. If you sit and relax and play side after side, after a while your brain loses touch with the crazy notion that etch is detail, vinyl sounds great, and its going back that is hard to take.
I have no intention of adding a turntable no matter how good it sounds. While I was there I found myself wanting a dryer more clinical presentation but listening to my system just now there seems to be so much missing that was present in your system.
Classic example! Exactly what I’m talking about!
So my advice is, get whatever turntable/arm/cart you like but do not try and make it sound like digital! Enjoy the wonderful balance analog naturally loves to hit between detail and warmth. Do this and the further up the food chain you go the more of both you will get. Also realize that with records the turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono stage are all equal.
That does not mean spend the same amount on each. Although it could. What it means is if you get a nice rig like oldhvymec recommends, or heck any $3k rig for that matter, and run it through the phono card in your Luxman, expect to be shocked how much better it will be with a good quality stand alone phono stage.
You’re probably smart to start like you plan, using the Luxman. Avoid low output MC. Anything below about 0.5mV only makes the phono stage challenge harder. Get some nice medium output (.6-.8mV, something like that) and you will be in great shape should you want to upgrade your phono stage to something like the Decware ZP3 https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZP3.htm
That front end, on some Nobsound springs, or even better Townshend Pods, and with some quality wire, will shame just about any digital you can find at just about any price with mega-warmth, incredible detail, and emotional involvement no bits will ever be able to match.
Do take a drive into Dallas and see the guys at Audio Concepts. These guys know analog and they are a Luxman dealer so you will be able to at least hear different turntables on your rig.
Great folks and I have spent a ton of money there over the years.
Thorens, Technics, Nottingham, all sound like great suggestions. Keep 'em coming folks. I've also heard good things about VPI and Rega. I have been buying used equipment for a very long time with great success (knock on wood). But am I to assume that a used TT presents a greater risk compared to, say, amps or DACs? If so, then maybe new it is.
Also, what are the pros and cons of MM vs MC?
@oldhvymec -- man, you're right about the vinyl prices. I was looking at some well known recordings (Miles, Coltrane, Chet Baker, Patricia Barber, and other usual suspects) to get my collection going, but the good ones seem to be quite a bit more expensive than CDs.
@yogiboy Thanks for the links. This looks interesting and very much within the ballpark of my budget.
@inna The Nottingham looks really nice, but the link you provided is being shipped from Netherlands and does not include a cartridge. Not sure if there's a US dealer, but I'll definitely research.
Disagree with MillerCarbon....depends on the quality of CD player/Turntable setup/recording itself. Many times the CD is better, many times the turntable is better.
Take the information with a grain of salt, especially when it comes from a Vinyl fanatics like millercarbon. He’s been ‘high’ on Vinyl for way too long and unfairly pooping on digital (streaming or CD) ever since he graced us with his presence here.
Analog is not for everyone. If you have a reference quality digital setup, investing in a analog does not make whole lot of sense. Are you a patient man, cause your patience will be put to ultimate test with Analog. And I’m not talking about the initial setup, it is quite a process and will require your total commitment.
A decent Analog setup requires lot of care and attention to the detail. Even then, It is not without its quirks...prepare yourself to get used to clicks, pops and surface noise, it is simply unavoidable. You will end up with pressings that are inherently imperfect regardless of label and price. You will need to be judicious about record labels, random buys will leave you frustrated. Just like digital, there are plenty of bad sounding pressings. But pressings from Analog Productions, MoFi, Blue Note Records are of very high quality and 98% free from surface noise. They will cost you from $35 to $60.
You will also need to invest in a decent record cleaning machine. Estimated cost $700 to $5000.
I will not suggest you to buy used TT / cart...buy from a retailer that offers 60 days no questions asked return policy. Two distinct advantages, 1. You will get invaluable customer service support while you get yourself acclimated with the initial setup, 2. If you decide, analog isn’t for you, you pack n ship the TT / Cart back to the retailer and get your money back.
Look at Pro-Ject, Clearaudio or Thorens Turntables, you should be able to find good options under $3500. As far cartridge goes, check out Hana S or Hana M MC cart, they would be a great match for your phono in Luxman.
Don’t buy used Vinyl at least not in the beginning. I am happy to send over couple of LP’s your way to listen. Or better yet, take a drive and come over to my home for one on one experience with Vinyl :-)
PS: The weakest link in your otherwise awesome system ~ Sonore opticalRendu.
As far as I know, there is only one Nottingham US distributor/dealer - Holywood Sound, http://hwdsound.com/ , in Florida. Larry is good but he is a Moving Coil fanatic and will try to dismiss MM cartridges. Pay no attention if you want MM. He can install and align it for you, even if you don't buy that cartridge from him. You would just have to send it to him. You might also want to check out analogueseduction.net in the UK. I am just not sure if they now sell Nottinghams with US voltage motors. They can also install and align cartridge for you. Price should be lower than in the US because you wouldn't have to pay VAT. US customs fees might apply and might not, don't know for sure. I just bought cartridge from them once a few years ago. Nottingham Interspace is also good and less expensive. Nottingham gives you a very musical and articulate sound. And speaking of Spacedeck, it sounds bigger than one might suspect before listening to it. I use simple Goldring 1042 MM cartridge and I like the sound. Sure, you can put $1500 MC and get more speed and resolution, but it might not be better in every respect.
Oh yes, I forgot. Okki Nokki $500 record cleaning machine works just fine. I use it with Disc Doctor brushes and Audio Intelligent fluids - three solutions: enzyme, archivist formula and distilled water. Three bottles. Sometimes, as a pre-cleaner, I first use..#15 solution or whatever they call it. Ultrasonic machine might do better. Some people even use two - first regular machine and then ultrasonic.
If you want low stress, Technics 1200GR. GEM Dandy Polytable is worth a look. If you want to invest in a project that will yield superior sound, look at a refurbished Garrard 401 from AudioGrail etc.
In terms of simplicity, Nottingham is easy to set up. I remember it took me probably less than half an hour to do it. Cartridge installation and alignment takes additional time. After that you just change the oil every year or so, and you might want to check everything at about the same time. The belt lasts for a long time, the motor is reliable and not really expensive if you have to replace it. I replaced the record mat that comes with Nottingham, as does just about everyone, with Boston Audio mat. There are other options. I also don't use the Nottingham platform, I put the table on 3" thick maple platform. Again, most people do just that. 2" thick is minimum, some do 4" thick. And you would need some decent cones under the platform.
My journey last year, lots of help here, led to an extremely happy result, one deck with 3 tonearms: Long 12.5" Arm for MC; 9" Arm for MM; Compact 9" Arm for MONO. All aligned, balanced, instant back and forth Stereo/Mono in a listening session. I play a lot of Jazz, many Mono LPs.
It began with a Vintage JVC Dual Arm Plinth CL-P2: Stereo Arm and Mono Arm.
This, from Japan is expensive shipping, but shows the JVC deck well:
Then I realized I was using my MC to play LP’s that were fun but not audibly dynamic, or to test LP’s for sale, wearing out a non-replaceable Stylus, so I squeezed a 3rd arm on the left side, to get the 3 types, use the replaceable stylus for ’less than special’ LP’s
My finished 3 arm deck can be seen in the last photo of my eBay listing:
A turntable is really the combination of the table and the rack. A lot of the best performance is only really possible with a massive stable solid rack. Which extends to include the floor. So while all your choices may be pretty similar when used on that massive solid stable floor/rack system, if that's not what you have that's not what you'll experience.
I've helped people solve the problems with not so good placements, and the problems are usually worse and harder to solve when the turntables are really light weight. So you will want to consider very realistically where and how it will be used.
I forgot a real good one.. The Russco, QRKs, and Sparta. If you want to get CRAZY look at EMT and Fairchild.. Look at my home page. Click the speakers.. You’ll see a Russco Broadcast. I Mounted it in 1" Red and black oak. (stair flats). At the primer and wet sand stage now.
I paid 60.00 for the flats, and 130.00 for the TT. I picked up 6 at one time at a FM station that shut down.. QRKs. Sparta, ALL the same I love um.. Just about twice as big as ANY of the Garrards, or TD121 or 24s. I got um all..
They que an LP to speed in less than 1/2 a revolution. They will out last my great grand kids.. They have "GEAR SHIFTERS". LOL YUP!
EASY plinth to design too. Just big and square, I added Queen Ann legs to match the speakers.. Different for sure. 65 lb un weighted.. I’m sure it will hit the 200lb mark when I’m finished.. 4-6" of Plaster of Paris (hot set) comes to mind for the insert on the bottom..and 1/2" of Butyl Rubber. That's about 200 lbs. :-)
Garrard Killers.. "for peanuts", as the Titan of tinker would say..
Washing machine motors.. HUGE fractional motors and LOTs of OEM and after market parts..
If they ever catch on I’ll make a quid or two.... I have a few.. LOL
I have purchased 3 cartridges and over 100 Albums from Elusive Disc and their service has been exemplary. So much so that I owe it to them to send them business. I have no financial connection to them what so ever.
+1 on buying from a local dealer, shipping turntables is difficult and fraught with danger. A good dealer will set the table up for you and help you troubleshoot any issues that arise. Also a dealer can offer you an upgrade path most likely if you want to move higher up in whatever brand you choose. And of course the chance to both audition and return if unsatisfied.
Two brands have not been mentioned yet so I'll mention them. SME and Roksan. Take a look. I don't know if you could get even used SME with tonearm for $3k, though. In any case, I would go British. Technics would play alright but it's in essence DJ table, don't expect sophisticated sound. Rega is mass market. Nottingham conveys emotions of what is being played, that's why it has such a cult following.
https://www.tonepublications.com/review/review-the-funk-firm-little-super-deck/ Very capable deck with the best arm in price range. I always liked Arthur's designs. That leaves you approx with 1k for the cartridge. Otherwise usual suspects, Rega, Thorens, VPI, Project, Clearaudio, Technics... Or in the used market for Nottingham, Linn, Roxan, Avid... Good hunting.
Best bang for the buck is to find a used turntable for sale from local audiophiles. But it does not come as often as it used to be. As suggested, Technics 1200GR with $300 ~ $500 MM cartridge and similarly priced phono preamp would work nicely with your gears. Then, buy some records (new, used, from ebay, discogs, ...) and enjoy the music. Be aware that not all vinyls sound better than CDs. There are many poorly recorded or pressed records that sound like CDs or even worse. Usually those audiophile records with superb sound quality cost a lot more. You may have an urge to upgrade in a few (?) years, but you would need to invest whole lot more to get better. By then you would have a lot more knowledge about Analog and you can make a better decision for which turntable, which tonearm, MM or MC, ... to go for.
The new Technics SL1200 series of tables are NOT DJ tables. That is a total misconception. The only thing the new ones have in common with the older ones are the looks, nothing else.
Lenco L70, L75, L78 with heavy plinth and better tonarm. I had heavy plinth (50 pound, birch plywood) Lenco L78 with vintage SME 3009 tonearm and it beated hand down Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck with Spacearm tonearm. Lenco has much more accurate pace and rhythm, better bass definition and texture, better instrument separation. The difference is huge if you listen classical piano or pipe organ. Regards, Alex.
Some people do put better tonearm on the Spacedeck, I just don't want to complicate the matter for the OP. I have no complaints about pace and rhythm of the Nottingham. Bass, resolution and instrument separation might use improvement, that's true. But not bad at all.
FYI: The original Technics SL-1200 was not produced for DJ use. It did become popular with DJs because of its features!
Technics SL-1200 is a series of direct-drive turntables originally manufactured from October 1972 until 2010, and resumed in 2016, by Matsushita Electric (now Panasonic Corporation) under the brand name of Technics. S means "Stereo", L means "Player". Originally released as a high fidelity consumer record player, it quickly became adopted among radio and disco club disc jockeys, thanks to the direct drive, high torque motor design, making it initially suitable for pushbutton cueing and starting of tracks on radio and in dance clubs. It is still extremely popular with audiophiles.[citation needed]
I really appreciate the suggestions and well-thought out responses. Reading through the comments I've realized two things. First, getting into analog is even more complicated than I thought, but I was kind of half expecting it anyways. It certainly is a lot more work than choosing a DAC or streamer given the various pieces of the analog puzzle.
Second, I agree with everyone who suggested working with a dealer to get my feet wet. That's certainly good advice. I'm going to reach out to my local dealer and see what they can do to get me started.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
