I own a Jadis JA30 MK ll designed to use the KT150. No they are not a drop in replacement of the KT120 as they draw more current. Jadis gives the option to drop down to the family of KT120, 6550, EL34, etc. with a small DIY mod. inside the amp. Just change a strap etc.
They are redesigning all of their amps. around the KT150 tube with the same mod. for the NOS guys with smaller tubes. I have not modded my amp. to try the smaller tubes including the KT120.
This amp. sounds so good as is on my speakers I have no desire to switch at this stage. The just modded their JA 80 and 120 amps that have been in production sine the 80's. Many users of this amplifier all over the world just not as many here in the states. Pretty strong recommendation IMO of the tube.
I owned ARC once and heard it many other times and it does not compare to the musicality of Jadis or the build quality. Just IMO of course. |
Geez,
I got a real headache reading about all you poor people sitting on pins and needles waiting for this answer or that response from ARC. I learned early on in life that people who do not answer your questions when confronted with them numerous times means they don't know, or they know and do not want to say.
Sell your overpriced ARC gear, buy from Mike Sanders at Quicksilver Audio. He answers questions within a day, was building with the KT-150 while ARC was stone-walling all of you, and his products will last longer than any of us will.
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The KT150 is a fantastic tube, but after a year they seemed less so, and I perceived that they were putting some strain on my beloved Jolida 502p (ear to speaker I could hear the Jolida softly saying, "help me…help me…"). Back in April I put in a set of matched and balanced (I assume "thetubestore" uses a small scale to balance these as they do seem to be the same weight) Gold Lion KT88s and they're sounding beautiful, and I think the gold lettering and their reputation have a large influence on my shallow and obvious "low threshold" sense of what's good. These tubes are REAL good, and my amp seems happy (!). The KT150s are still great, but it is harder now to tell how great they are since they're now in their boxes on a shelf…but hey…they're great at being in their boxes also. They're not trying to climb out, not getting dusty…friggin' great. |
Kevin is highly complimentary of the Gold Lion KT88 reissues, as is Roger Modjeski of Ram Labs and Music Reference. |
Not sure that statement is true or it's subjective but what kind of KT88 is Kevin Hayes referring to? I have some EH KT88 and tried them in my Primaluna Dialogue and didn't care for them at all. The TS KT120 sounded better and that wasn't saying much. |
Add the new VAC IQ 200 to the list. KT88 stock but can roll KT120 and KT150.
Kevin Hayes said all tests between KT88 and KT150 in the factory and dealer sites, KT88 win hands down.
Very interesting!
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My Jolida Fusion 3502 , not the S model has much more premium parts
And has many upgrade options.
I use all 19 50s preamp tubes Big upgrade and switched out the very sweet EL34
Power tubes 50wpc. Now the KT 150 tubes up the power to 80 wpc.
The midrange is almost as sweet as thd el34 ,but better by far in the midbass low bass dynamics much more slam soundstage depth as well as size is bigger.
Online a matched quad $270 delivered. Fantastic tube. If using a smaller or older amp check first. Upgrade to bigger power supplies if possible to optimize for this tube. |
Xti16,
I have Octave Re290 setup for KT120.please confirmed the KT150 tubes can support for this amp.cause I really want to try on the KT150.
Mazad6 |
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Bifwynne...Have you given in to the Dark Side for your replacement KT's ? |
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Just found this on another site.
ARC amps and KT150's
Audio Research finally clarified this morning in writing that the KT150's are electrically compatible with the following:
VSi60
VSi75
REF75
REF150
REF250
REF750
However, because the KT150 is physically larger than the KT120, technical compatibility has not been confirmed at this time. For example, they indicated there might be a "clearance problem" with the top cover of the REF75. MEP can you confirm?
There should not be an issue with the REF150 or REF250.
They made mention that the proper selection of the bias range and device matching of the KT150 tubes for each model is of critical importance for optimal sonic performance. They recommended customers purchase properly matched and biased KT150's from Audio Research for their particular product - when they become available from ARC - later in the first quarter.
They mentioned that KT150 tube sets will not be available for the REF750's for quite a while due to the tube matching requirements for a pair of the big 750's.
ARC made mention that they will NOT be held responsible for damages and/or repairs to a product if the KT150 tubes were installed that were NOT purchased as a set from Audio Research. Interesting.
No mention of pricing |
PS: What I meant to say is that to me the KT150s sound much better. Out of curiosity (audiophilia nervosa) I plugged the KT120 back in a few times and even tried to mix both types of tubes but I always quickly returned to just using the KT150s. |
I've been running four KT-150 in my VSi75 for about a month. At first I was enthusiastic. The sound has more power and more depth as somebody else already said. But, it sounds a little less "sophisticated". It sounds great, but has less finesse. Maybe that's the difference between something that is specifically designed around a specific tube. Anyway, if you like more power in the most basic meaning of the word, this is it. What a bargain upgrade. |
Bifwynne, I was a big ARC fans too. My first hifi preamp was ARC LS-1 in the 80's. I had used the 40th Anniversary and recently upgraded to Ref 10.
I brought a pair of Reference 250 last year and in the first week, one of them failed to power on after shut down. They were finally replaced. My recent experience with ARC have been fairly bad. Reliability is a real issue.
ARC had lost my support on power amp. My amp had been changed to Pass Labs and to me Pass Labs sounds better. It is kind sad to see ARC losing its long time customers. |
Bifwynne, I agree that there seems to be "ulterior motives" , in ARC not blessing the use of KT150's in the reference series. It is a mistake too, no one is going to sell reference series amps to buy the new Galileo series, because they want to use KT150's. If it is policy not to pronounce on the new tubes, it is losing customer loyalty.
I have about 200 hours on my KT150 equipped Ref 75 and no problems at all, apart from not being able to put the lid back on. No biasing problems, excess heat from transformers, nothing. The only advice I have received from a dealer is, the more power tubes you need, the more risks to the amps there may be, so the Ref 75 would be the safest to re tube. I can not say if this is true or not. In any event, the KT150's are a big step up in the Ref 75, IMHO. |
I too waited anxiously for ARC to bless the KT150 s with the Ref 150 when I reached 2,000 hours on my KT120s in the summer. But they didn't, so I purchased another set of ARC KT120s.
I have owned 2 ARC amps and 3 preamps and have always purchased my tubes directly form ARC due to the comfort factor, but the reports were so good on the KT150, that I managed to meet with an insider at ARC who assured me that, unofficially, the KT150s were recommended for the Ref 150. Purchased a matched set from Upscale and can say they are better than the KT120s. Just sorry I didn't take that shot earlier cause I now have a full matched set of KT120s with only 500 hours on them.
Go with the KT150s. You won't regret it. |
Your gut tells you there is no issue with 150s as does my previously noted survey. This must be digestion related. |
I totally understand. I was told flat out "no" for my ART monos and ARTsa. I don't mind because I love them the way they sound and I'll take the chance if I choose to install KT-150's in my amps. At least we know of some ARC users actually using the KT-150 without problems. I suspect they (ARC) will never sanction the KT-150 and also suspect the Reference series and Galileo series are similar but we'll never know unless someone does a full breakdown.
ARC may not be the only vendor but there is only one manufacturer of these tubes. If I were you, buy the KT-150 and enjoy them. Life is way too short. You've already had problems because of a bad KT-120, I doubt you'll have any more or different issues with KT-150's. In fact, I believe the KT-150 will last longer and sound better. |
Joeinid .... the Ref 75 uses only 2 pairs of KT-150s. The Ref 150 2 quads. The Ref 250, I think 3 pairs per channel. My gut tells me that there is NO issue, but I am not a techie and I will not give advice or do something that is crosswise to ARC.
As far as the GS-150 is concerned ... yes it costs a small fortune. But other than a designer skin and a 2 tap (4 and 8 ohms) output tranny, I'm still waiting to learn how the innards differ from the Ref 150. On paper, the two amps spec identically.
Joe ... I'm annoyed because my tubes have 2000 hours logged on them and are ready (crying) to be replaced. One old tube already arced and took out bias resisters. I really want to use the KT-150s ... but won't because ARC has NOT sprinkled holy water on the new tubes.
I'm annoyed because ARC has had their hands on the KT-150s for some time now and should be able to report the results of life testing. I repeat what I said ... I smell a marketing trick here. Or, ARC doesn't have enough KT-150 tubes for current GS-150 production needs AND for current Ref amps.
Either way, it's annoying. If it's a cheap marketing trick, I'm pissed. If it's a supply issue, ARC is not the only tube vendor in town. |
Thank you David,
Let's hope we all get some official good news this year regarding KT-150's. I plan on ordering my first quad as soon as the stores are open. I'm looking at another week or so before they are installed and singing.
Happy new year everyone.
Bruce,
Keep the faith. I know of some reviewers and speaker makers who have been using KT-150's in their Ref 75's for quite some time with zero issues. Also, if you notice, the new ARC Galileo series of gear is not marketed as "reference" yet it is more expensive. Early reports are great but I'm not spending that much for them. |
FYI: ARC owners. I spoke with Chris Ossana from ARC on Monday about an issue involving the white Teflon caps in my Ref 5 SE and Ref 150.
During the course of the call, I asked Chris about the KT-150s ... again. Chris continues to tow the company line. Chris said that ARC engineering has NOT approved the KT-150s for use in the current Ref amps; only the "new" GS-150 amp.
No one could say they are a bigger ARC fan than me, but I am getting big time irritated by the approval lag. ARC has been life testing the KT-150s for well over a year. I admit that I am not a techie, but from what I can glean from the web, aside from a little more current draw, the "120s" and the "150s" spec almost identically.
Further, ARC's published GS-150 specs look almost identical to the published Ref 150 specs. I smell a marketing rat here.
Even still, I will not chance risking my amp until ARC sprinkles holy water on the KT-150s. But I am getting annoyed big time.
My KT-120s are ready for replacement. I already blew 2 bias resisters because an old tube arced. I would like to buy 2 quads of KT-150s from Upscale Audio but am waiting on ARC. As I said above, I smell a marketing trick to sell the "new and improved" GS-150 that specs identically to the Ref 150, but for the KT-150s.
Sorry for the cynicism.
Happy New Year.
Bruce |
Wow! your art amps are impressive,that's a good way to go ,to try it on the smaller amp first.I usually see Bill and Lew at ces ,2 years ago they were raving about how much they were liking the kt120's,last year they were not officially at the show as vendors ,but I ran into Bill ,Lew ,and Jeff their engineer in the hallways at the show .I asked about the kt150 and Bill said he had just acquired some but hadn't had a chance to test them yet .Jeff was concerned because of the higher filament voltage and that my amps transformers were not optimized for that tube,Bill didn't seem to be worried that the amp couldn't handle it ,more that,some of their customers still like to use 6550's and thats what the amps were designed around.Anyways I have always been a huge fan of there products and enjoy my amps and my ct5 pre amp,maybe someday art's.thanksagain |
David,
Thank you again. I appreciate your input very much and I am so happy you are enjoying the new sound. I have the ART monos and an ARTsa. I was also told no on the KT-150. I can't imagine them blowing up the amps but may affect ultimate longevity going forward. I have a small integrated that will accept KT-150's and plan on hearing them in that one first. Thanks again! |
Joeinid just want you to know that I'm having no issues at all.yesterday I had a lot of my audio friends and audio business contacts over to here the magic thats going on in my system.The amps were running for 5 hours,and pushed them to their limits a lot off that time,again no problems at all.everyone who was there had the same comments ,ie,best dynamics I ever heard ,totally grain free,the instruments,sound so full and rich,imaging and stage depth huge.I can honestly say going from kt120's to kt150's is the single biggest improvement i ever made in my system.ill try keep you up to speed thanks David |
The current heap of hot glass in my simple Jolida has been amazing me lately...the 150s seem to have settled in and sound so damn good I'm STOKED with them. |
Dakingat55,
Please keep us updated on how your amps are doing with the KT-150's. I'm too chicken to try them right now.
Thanks! |
Such a rebel! Especially when you consider that no amp has ever been reported to have blown up from 120s or 150s. |
Call me a rebel CJ told me flat out NO, but I just replaced the kt120's in my CJ premiere 12's with kt150's,60 hours in no issues ,been monitoring the transformers to see if they get hot ,no issues.the sonic difference is astounding in my system.I have had these amps for18 years,and have run 3 brands of 6550's 3 brands of kt88's,for almost 3 years kt120's.I switched to kt120's beccause of better bass and better dynamics,but I always felt they brought a little touch of electronic edge,I didn't know if that was coming from somewhere else in the chain.Back to the 150's,the sound is so dramatically better,I will never go back unless my amps blow up or I do.Dynamics like nothing I have ever heard,no grain or edge,best bass ,best and deepest soundstage ever and most musical |
Jasper .... I am perplexed by the hype surrounding the GS-150. On paper, the GS-150 specs identically to the Ref 150, except for the KT-150s and possibly a different output tranny.
I am sufficiently familiar with ARC's product line to have the status to ask ... what changed? Maybe better passives??? .... maybe the output trannies sound better??? I would like to understand why and how the GS-150 is better and different than the Ref 150, other than its new "package" and use of KT-150 tubes.
BIF
P.S. I am getting an uncomfortable feeling that ARC's old guard is being replaced by marketing/business geeks. An old saw from business school is that if you can't improve the product, ... change the package. I am concerned that that is what the GS-150 may be ... a Ref 150 in a new package.
I look forward to being proved wrong because I am an ARC fan. |
Note to self: Start selling larger tube cages and top covers to ARC amp owners with KT150s...maybe a lid bulge? |
@Bifwynne, what little I have managed to extract thus far,
Rewound Output Transformers ?!?!? Although I cannot see ARC not utilising the extant Cores and bobbins as sported on the Ref150.
A reworked, and 'perhaps' influential , shortened circuit topology, with a handfull of resistors and the odd capacitor enabling optimisation of the KT150.
And , errr, yes, KT150's.
For my part I am somewhat disappointed that the facility of the 16 Ohm tap has been omitted, however were this to enable the utilization of an improved winding spec then C'est la Vie.
Jasper. |
Thanks Johnny R ... finally a straight no BS answer.
Johnny, one other question. The GS-150 and Ref 150 spec identically on the ARC site. Everything .... distortion, power supply, bandwidth, whatever. So what changed??
Also, will ARC sell KT-150 tubes for regular stock Ref amps and at what price?
Johnny ... you are the best. |
There are a quite a few ARC amps where the tubes will not clear the top cover. Be advised. |
I don't own an ARC amp, but having followed this issue I feel I can finally sleep at night knowing the suspense and drama presented to the ever cautious ARC owner by the 150 dilemma is finally resolved. Whew...now I gotta buy some stock in Tung Sol. |
Spoke with DG at ARC today and he said electrically engineering has signed off A OKAY for use with the KT 150 with the
ARC amps below. But from a Mechanical standpoint one must take note with clearance and observe the larger 150s can vary on glass height with Cages and such could be a close call in some situations etc.
Enjoy, Merry Christmas
Johnny R Audio Connection
VSI 60
VSI 75
Ref 75
Ref 150
Ref 250
Ref 750
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Thanks Smoffatt. Looking forward to learning about the circuitry changes in the GS-150. So far, the ARC web site gives no clue. |
Here's an update. FWIW.
My ultimate goal is replace my ARC REF separates including Classic 120 monos with a very good integrated while maintaining (to some extent) the sonic attributes of my current set up. Discussing my options with an ARC dealer yesterday, he was saying that the GSI75 with KT150's is due out in early 2015. It will probably be introduced at CES in January for a release to market thereafter. He is checking with ARC to get a release date and wether it will sport a Phono stage and a DAC in the same box as originally announced by ARC a few months ago. Me, i don't think that they can put both in the same box for obvious reasons hence the delay.
OTOH, what about a REF75 with KT150. He told me that ARC will not ship a REF75 or REF150 with KT150 even if a customer ask for it and willing to pay the added cost. Although the specs are nearly identical for the REF150-GS150, he says that those are only the tip of the iceberg. The electrical design of the GS150 is different from the REF150 and is optimized for the KT150.
He is not sure if the amp is going to age prematurely with KT150. This is an ARC question to answer. |
Tsushima1 ... I asked my ARC authorized tech to contact ARC's repair folks to find out if ARC is offering any kind of an upgrade kit for the current Ref amp line. He is unaware that such is the case, but said he would check.
I also asked him to try an get a definitive answer to my Q about using the KT-150s in my Ref 150. Namely, whether the KT-150s will damage or prematurely age my amp. I am looking for a "YES," a "NO" or "DON'T KNOW" answer.
I think he will get the "same old-same old" answer as the rest of us.
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GS line hit the stores yet? |
It would seem that the Death Star may be working on an 'Authorised' tech modification (cost of a handful of resistors and the odd cap unknown at this time) to some of the current production Ref/KT120 models, in order to optimise the utilization of the KT150, Ref 150se anyone!
This would of course enable relatively recent customers to retain any remaining factory/dealer warranty, whilst also affording the proud owner the facility of purchasing ARC factory tested sets of the new OPT's.
Curiously I raised the same point several weeks back, opine-ing, that as frustrated Ref owners were undoubtably going to go Off-piste anyway, that ARC may as well offer an upgrade service and make a few $$$ out of the situation, rather than expecting hordes of Ref owners to upgrade, lemming like, to GS, merely because they are the only officially sanctioned
models within the portfolio sporting the KT150.
Anyway, perhaps an avenue for you consider BiffWhine! |
Tsushima ... more importantly, the main question is whether ARC changed the innards of the GS-150, principally the components that would handle the increased current demands of the KT-150 tube. Specifically, the power tranny and other passives that drive the tube.
At this point, all I have to go on are the published specs of the Ref 150 and the GS-150, which are IDENTICAL!! I can surmise and infer all day long. I have only one question. Will the KT-150 damage or prematurely age the innards of the Ref 150. That is ALL I care about and I can't seem to get a straight answer. |
Brf ... you touch on my very question. How does the GS-150 differ from the Ref 150, save the fascia and the tubes?
Not getting any definitive answer to my question. In the absence of any information to the contrary, all I can see is that the GS-150 and Ref 150 share identical specs ... on paper. I concede that published specs do not speak to whether other important components have changed ... but so far, no information in the public domain ... yet. |
Will the Ref 150 work with KT 150 tubes, probably yes, but is it optimized to be used with KT 150's, probably not. That is why they developed the GS 150. |
Whoa!!! Pause it there, please. @Smoffatt, would you care to re-read my post of the 12th Inst, perhaps paying a little more attention to the punctuation.
@Bifwynne, please note the above.
For my part, I am no stranger to frustration with Obfuscation Central myself, remember 'Capacitor Gate'?.
Whilst recently discussing the GS150 with an ARC sales rep and the main ARC distributor for Europe, I asked whether they had utilized the stock output transformer from the Ref150 line, merely deigning to output the 16 Ohm winding? I was assured that the OPT's as sported on the GS line, had been the subject of an re-design to the winding spec.
They could not elaborate any further, however, one might hypothesise this to indicate larger 8 and 4 Ohm winding sections over the Ref OPT?!?!? |
Smoffat, let me be clear. I am not interested in ARC's precious cache of KT-150s. I understand that ARC will charge $200 a tube. I have no intention of paying $1600 for 8 tubes ... period. Instead, I will probably buy 2 quads from Upscale Audio. Upscale is charging about half that.
I only want to know one thing and one thing only. Will the KT-150 damage or prematurely age the Ref 150? That is it.
Oh ... and as far as Tsushima is concerned, he is in no position to know the answer to my question. Just because the KT-150s presently "work" in his Ref 150 is not responsive to my question.
OTOH, if I learned that the innards of the GS-150 were identical to the Ref 150, then I could fairly infer that the KT-150 would do no harm. |
Hey Bif, don't sweat it. The post above from Tsushima1 states that he ordered KT150's from Upscale and put them in his REF150 with no apparent issues. All is good.
You can not order KT150's from ARC because Kalvin will ask what amp you want to put those in and if you say a REF150 he'll tell you that the amp will blow up and take the house with it. You know why? Imagine each owner of a REF75-150-250-750 calling into ARC for matched pairs/quads/octets of KT150's. If they commission the use of the KT150's in those amps they will likely be "stuck" with a BIG stash of KT120's that no one would want and to make matters worst, most of their older amp models won't "sport" the use of the KT120. I don't think that ARC want people to trade their REF150 for the new GS 150. They just want to keep their little precious KT150's for that new GS series.
Having said all that, you can now call Kevin and get a matched set of Octet for your REF150, put them in and enjoy the music!!!! If you wait for ARC's blessing on the 150's the KT200 will be out. |
Agreed David. Take a look at the ARC web site and stare at the GS-150 and Ref 150 specs. The GS-150 specs identically to the Ref 150, but for a few extra watts of rated power ..., no doubt because the GS-150 uses KT-150 tubes.
If the GS-150 has different innards, ARC should say so. Bad marketing in my opinion. At this point, as a consumer, all I see is a retro'ish looking fascia and KT-150 tubes. If that's all there is, one would be crazy to part with the extra cash for this new entry to the ARC line-up.
In the 60s, we used to describe good looking so called muscle cars as "no-go showboats." Until I hear otherwise, that's what I think of the GS-150.
Really annoyed with ARC. My amp is close to a retube and I would like to drop in the KT-150s. All I want to hear from ARC is that the KT-150s will NOT damage my amp. I'll take my chances on sonics and tube life. |
Thanks for this re-assuring comment Norfish. I feel the same way as you did before making the swap to the REF150. I will audition a REF75 in my system first and make a sonic assessment. If i feel that i need more "bottom end grip" i will audition a REF150. Will likely audition with KT120's.
Upstream i have a GNSC modded REF3 LE (Limited Edition) and REF2 Phono (not SE version). Steve was a great audio guy. Too bad GNSC is now defunct but with the new amp/preamp models that ARC has released in the last 3-4 years, i'm not sure a company like GNSC would be very relevant today as much they were 5 years ago. My Classic 120's were modded in 2005 including the balanced inputs from SE. The REF3 and REF2 Phono were done in the spring of 2010 a few months before GNSC was shut down. |
