It may prove to be the case that the Mains / KT ratio of the Ref 75 might receive sanction , however we may speculate that the Ref 150's 8 x KT / Mains ratio may prove too near the Red Line without major surgery , if at all.
However it would seem prudent to await the 'The Word' from ARC central on this matter regardless of model , especially for units still under warranty . |
Hopefully we may hear some definitive direction from ARC in the not toooooooooo distant future as to which models , if any , may be certified to utilize the KT150 . |
Thank you for your input Hifigeek1 .
May I inquire whether you have in fact spoken with , or had direct and very recent contact with ARC R&D on this matter ?
I ask as your comment ~
" nor have they sonically tested or life tested it as far as I know"
would tend to contradict what scant information we have at this time some of which purports to be from ARC themselves !
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Good morning Hifigeek1 .
Thank you for the qualification and for the most current situation report we have had to date.
I am certain many ARC owners will be eagerly awaiting your future posts in this regard . |
11-13-13: Hifigeek1
Regarding the KT-150. It is not known yet if this tube is a drop in replacement for the KT-120. I'm awaiting info from the ARC engineering dept. on this issue. The KT-150 puts out more power than the KT-120 which could mean it draws more heater current than the KT-120 does. When I get more info on this, I will share it here. Until that time, I would be very careful using this tube.
Hifigeek1 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Good morning Hifigeek1.
I was musing upon whether any further 'evaluation in progress' reports may have filtered out from ARC Central ?
Rgds. |
Thank you for the update Ffg1 , hopefully we may receive some direction early-ish in the New Year . |
Good evening Gary.
I was wondering whether you had been in receipt of any further 'Official' news?
If so ,I sincerely hope that you have not been 'Clipped' for such temerity, And are not currently propping up a flyover, somewhere in Minnesota! |
Thank you once again Hfg1 for keeping we ARC'rs in the loop
Were the utilization of the KT-150 to prove technically compatible , I do hope , regardless of pricing , that ARC R&D leave such a decision up to the end user rather than deciding not to sanction the option on cost alone.
Presumably ARC are considering the price that they would wish to charge for ARC Factory approved valve sets.
Jasper. |
Sounds promising Hfg1 , the last time I ran this past the main UK distributor being a number of weeks past the situation ,as far as was aware at that time , was that the Ref 75 would be Circuit/Traffo compatible , the Ref 150 he thought more doubtful !
The situation might have been misinterpreted however ,and the situation may well have developed since that time.
We wait upon the Judgment of Zeus ! |
Good morning Gary (Hifigeek).
Merely wondering whether there has been any further progress reports coming out of ARC Central ?
One would presume a bare minimum test time in line with ARC's retail tube guarantee regardless of any decision whether to retail directly or not. |
Hmmm, standard ARC Central Obfuscation ! I had enough of this when inquiring as to the current situation over ARC's lack of customer disclosure in regard to their phasing out of the 2Uf Teflon coupling capacitors on the Ref 150 .
I sincerely hope that you have not been in any way compromised over this Gary ! |
FAO ~ Bifwynne ,
http://www.audioaficionado.org/audio-research/23028-arc-coupling-capacitors.html
You should have no concerns as long as you experience no necessity for ARC to replace any of your 2uF coupling capacitors ,note post #17.
(I trust that posting the above does not contravene any forum rules ? , my apologies to the Mod's in advance and please delete should this be the case ) |
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Bifwynne, Whilst not the sharpest of images when blown up I am pretty confident that they are indeed sporting the Mythical KT150! whether the circuit has been modified in any way is of course unknown.
I am aware of at least two intrepid ARC owners currently running KT150's in their 2x output valve per chanel VSi75's, bias set at 65mv , with no ill effect(as yet)noted.
Again one might theorize that ARC R&D may be a little more confident in respect of KT150 loading on the Mains transformer(s)as supplied on certain of their recent models, they may however be a little less comfortable ,as yet ,in respect of Mains headroom on other models , in particular were a Single Mains transformer is already supplying a Quad of 6550's or KT120's per channel .
Life testing of a new production valve and thorough evaluation of any potential implementation within existent models may take a reassuringly great deal of time .
Mere speculation on my part of course ,In which , as an Ref150 owner I would very much like to be proven wrong !
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" 03-18-14: Bifwynne
Wolf, are you mixing and matching thoughts. I think Tsushima's comment refers to life testing the KT-150, not so much the sound. "
Just So Bifwynne , altho I would consider that from an ARC perspective the most prescient factor would be due diligence
in respect of equipment safety margins and measurements , more so than valve denudation or even how each model responds audibly , even tho improved fidelity would be the the catalyst for such experimentation.
That said , I do feel that ARC's somewhat nebulous position on this matter and apparent disinclination to engage with their customer base , especially those who may have an material interest in the models,under/not under ? R&D,to be less than understanding!
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Wolfy Wolfy , really now , am I to be so misconstrued !
Surely a somewhat weak and Sophomoric humour cannot be the sum total of your input on this matter ! |
Oh, I seldom underestimate the 'potency' that is the playful use of the intentional parapraxis, or indeed the deployment of the mixed metaphor in bringing forth the 'small' man with their need to indulge in pompous grammatical correction , particularly when they have little of value to add in respect to the subject under discussion.
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We have another ARC VSi75 owner, commenting elsewhere, in respect of his unsanctioned adoption of the KT150. He reports that no obvious anomalous behavior has manifest itself,as yet,from either amplifier or himself.
Commenting further, it would appear that he considers the substitution to have been quite efficacious.
"I'm so glad to tell you that this is the greatest improvement I 've ever heard for the money!
Maybe a 15 hours - break in is just a little bit to say that Vsi75 is born for KT150, but soundstage is wider and deeper than ever!
Bass is more bass and midrange is so natural and 3D through my Sophia 3!"
It would be useful if these guys were in a position to monitor bias readings and transformer/circuit temperature.
Perhaps I may make a few inquiries, and post any further information on this point.
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I shall update If/When there is any response to the following,
Quote:
Originally Posted by cesare59
After 70 hours of use i can say that kt150 it's a must for vsi75 owners!
Soundstage IS wider and deeper! Midrage it's more realistic then with kt120!
Only bass in my system are lean than before..."
My question,
"Most interesting cesare59, Do you feel that the base notes on passages of music, familiar to you, have in fact altered sonically? Or, That due to a shift in emphasis perceived elsewhere in the spectrum you are mostly experiencing a different balance to those familiar passages." |
04-20-14: Wolf_garcia
BASE NOTES...man..."Base fishing anyone?"
LMAO, Base fishing? No, not quite. I do however find 'Angling' for the Lesser Pedantic Grammar Pilchard considerably more edifying, Altho, a somewhat 'predictable' feeding habit does tend to leave them incapable of resisting the bait/bate as proffered.
;0} |
Well Folks, at long last, we may observe at least one product line where ARC is intent upon an implementation of the KT150.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/05/audio-research-galileo-line-new.html
Reference 150 and 250 SE upgrade models perchance?
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Comment from an ARC REF75 owner residing in Seattle.
"Call ARC. My dealer did, and they told him to tell me to go ahead and put them in my Ref75." |
From the same, as yet, unsubstantiated source.
Marc, If not too much of an imposition would you mind inquiring, via your dealer, as to ARC's position with respect to the REF150 please.
"I was told that they recommend them in all kt120 based products. But you can also call arc yourself..."
We are still but Agaricus bisporus to the omnipotent Audio Research Company. |
From the same unsubstantiated source.
Marc, If not too much of an imposition would you mind inquiring, via your dealer, as to ARC's position with respect to the REF150 please.
"I was told that they recommend them in all kt120 based products. But you can also call arc yourself..."
We are still but Agaricus bisporus to the omnipotent Audio Research Company. |
Apologies for the double post Folks!
Until such time as ARC issues an official statement, sanctioning the use of KT150's in specific model's, I quite understand your cautiousness in this regard Bifwynne. |
However,
When one considers that It would appear ARC have been 'life' testing this valve for over a year now, Albee that in conjunction with the development of a new product line, I find it inconceivable that ARC-R&D have not concluded whether the KT150 is safe to run, or otherwise, In specific models within the current Reference line.
Therefore, why there is still no official directive in this regard from ARC is, at best, a mystery, at worst, close to the choreographed confusion of real farce! |
Whilst I, And for the most part, concur, with David and Bif regarding this Conspiracy Of Silence from ARC Central, especially in respect of the models sporting a Single Mains/Quad Output ratio, I am a tad less optimistic for the ratio as sported on the Ref150. Although this ratio may still prove safe and workable, within the performance envelope of the KT150 /REF150, under a marginally altered bias setting for the Master tubes ?!?!? |
Well folks, further somewhat encouraging news ~
"@bsandovalb, Do you know whether the owner of said Ref150 had sought/obtained official sanction for this, either from ARC Central or an ARC authorised dealer ?"
"Hi, in fact, the owner is the local ARC dealer, he also put kt150 on two ref75 owners.... Both also very happy!"
Only to be countered shortly after by this ~
"I sent aquestion to Audio Researchon using KT150 and this is his response:
One user has filled in a contact request from the website Audio Research
It follows below the summary of the data filled by the user:
Name: FRANCISCO
Surname: CANO SANCHEZ
Message:
Hi. I own AR Ref 110 and AR Ref 150 (Bi Amp, B & W 802D). I wonder if I can use the new Tungsol KT150 in my two amp, and if so, how to adjust the Bias"
"Hello Francisco,
The KT150 has not been approved for use in the Ref 150.
Best Regards,"
Kalvin Dahl
Customer Support Manager
www.audioresearch.com
service@audioresearch.com.
Now, does this mean~
ARC-R&D Has conducted full testing of the KT150 in the Ref150, concluding that the extra draw of eight OPT's left too little of a safety margin with a Single mains transformer?
Or,
Testing of the KT150 within our current Reference Line is still on-going, therefore at this time "The KT150 has not been approved for use in the Ref 150"?
Or,
Just be grateful for this single line of Obfuscation.
Is it really too much to ask for a reasonable disclosure on this matter, set in context?.
We're testing now to be complete, and conclusions have been drawn, again, Is it really too much to expect an official statement to be made, together a list of which models are, or are not, cleared for use with this Fekin Tube!!!
If only Mushrooms had teeth, we could be pulling them out with pliers. |
A little further information via 'Our man' In Costa Rica.
"Today, I went to see (and hear) the ref150 with the kt150... The owner told me it was the dealer who suggested the use of kt150, has only 62.2 hrs on the clock, but absolutely no problems... The dealer told him that an ARC representative told him it was safe to use them, he already tested a unit with kt150 with 3500 hrs so far and recomended based on his experience..."
Has ARC issued any guidelines, as yet, to their distributors and dealers with respect to this matter?
Or, have a couple of them simply 'Gone Off The Reservation' |
And for the interest of members that 'actually' have a material interest in this matter, further comment from a guy in Florida running with an Ref75/KT150 combo~
" That is a good assumption. I have also heard that "when or if" they "sanction" the KT150s they will offer their products at different price points depending upon the tubes the gear is being sold with.
I am closing in on the 150 hour mark on my REF75/KT150 combination and can tell you this upgrade is a no brainer. First 10 hours expect a much fuller an rich sounding experience with amazingly fantastic midrange, but slight attenuation of the higher octaves of what you are used to with KT120s: BUT right out of the box, you know you have something special. By 25-50 hours of listening there is no attenuation of upper octaves and all sounds incredibly balanced with a richness and fullness I have NEVER experienced with a tube amplifier. When you get past the 100 hour mark, you will hear things you have never heard; literally. I was listening to BlueCoast ESE #1 Dayan Kai first cut with a buddy of mine. We have heard this cut many times as my buddy likes to use it as reference. My system is upstairs, my wife was away and my 3 dogs were downstairs. My buddy says, someone is breaking into your house. I laughed as he ran downstairs, my three dogs sleeping, all doors closed and I said, that is background noise of the album you are hearing for the first time.
Listening to Eva Cassidy, Live at Blues Alley, listen for the clinking of glasses in the background as well as the deterioration and raspiness of her voice as the album progresses. Pretty unique in the difference pre and post KT150s. As it turns out she was sick with the flu at this recording and she wasn't happy with the way she sounded, although I think it is sublime but you can clearly hear the progression. It was like listening to the recording for the first time.
One warning. These tubes are so good at resolving that all little nuances of digital recordings (especially if your speakers are capable below 40Hz) made from master tapes, not direct digital become noticeable. This presents a problem for some people while others love it.
For those of you with a REF75 and relatively efficient speakers, be prepared for your audiophile friends to shake their heads telling you that there is NO WAY that is a 75watt amp.
For those questioning whether or not to make the change, go for it and enjoy. The best 350 I have ever spent on audio, bar none."
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And from another Costa Rican based corespondent, seeking advise, in respect of an amplifier to drive his Martin Logan CLX speaker,
"Problem solved.
You are absolutely right, following those who recommended to test the amp at home, I did just that and I found the ARC 150 to be just right in the sense that it gives me the full bodied presence I wanted, plus the prerequisite of better imaging and full range of frequencies. Like I said, I tested it and it's staying here. One more additional reason is the dealer brought it with the KT150 tubes already installed, so it made a huge difference. Thank you all for helping solve this little riddle and let me say I am happy. It worked great." |
A very recent comment posted on another forum, Dealer/User location as yet unknown.
"My dealer got confirmation i can use the kt150 in my ref750s. They also suggested i wait a bit because they mention with the amount of tube in the 750s, ARC find it difficult apparently to match a large number of kt150 so far. This would not be an issue with smaller amplifier using less tubes. Not sure what to make of it but i will likely upgrade to the kt150 in the near future anyway..."
__________________ |
I doubt very much whether we will hear of any 'Official' sanction, If at all, in respect to the utilization of KT150's within the current Reference range (in particular to the 75W and 150W models) for quite some time until after the initial retail launch of the Galileo series.
When one considers that their implementation of the KT150 is a notable component element, not merely audibly, but also in the marketing of the New product range (perhaps even more so) then ARC are unlikely to shoot themselves in the pocket on this one. |
Merely wondering whether anyone has news of any recent development on this?
Perhaps slightly tangential yet of interest. It would appear that Allnic Audio are now shipping their KT120 amplifiers, T2000 integrated, A2000 stereo power amp and M3000 monos, sporting KT150's.
" "After listening late into the evening I can say that installing the KT150 valves into the T2000 yesterday has transformed the sound to an extent I would not have thought possible.
It has dramatically improved in all respects. Everything is much more clearly defined, better articulated and more accurately represented.
The first most notable aspect is how much more quiet the background now is.An 'electronic' background has been replaced by the real ambience of the concert hall.
When listening to a favourite 1984 LP recording of Mahler's 4th and with eyes closed there was no hint of there being speakers in the room at all. What was there was a vividly clear sonic picture of the orchestra in the concert hall and I was sitting midway back in the stalls.The physical space was practically visible.
Each instrument was more accurately represented in terms of its characteristic tone, colour and dynamic range and also where it was in the three dimensional space of the concert hall. It was both proportional and in perspective.
The other improvement was in timing and flow. The music flowed more naturally, with more energy and life making the listening pleasure more intense. The KT 150s have made a significant improvement, which for a couple of hundred pounds
is remarkable."
Way to Go AR Central( Where is that I'm with stupid emoticon when you need it) |
@Andrewrona, I was conveying the information from the position of a somewhat frustrated ARC owner, A form of self flagellation if you will! |
Another titbit from elsewhere.
" My dealer has checked with Audio Research and apparently I would be able to put the KT150 in my 750s tube amp without any modification to the units. The only reason I cant do that now is because they claim they dont have enought KT150s on hand to properly match the quantity I need for the 750s. I guess this means they might adjust the bias of the KT150 in such a way that it works with my units. I have no ETA from them since they claim being very busy with the G series at the moment.
I am tempted to try sourcing the KT150s myself but given I am not them impact of the bias current have and the matching issues as well if I was to get them from the web, I guess I will be patient. I only have 700 hours on my 750s anyway so I can live with the set of KT120s I have for now! " |
David, mere speculation, however I suspect that the ratio of output tubes to mains Transformer(s) might be the issue, rather than power output per se. |
Veerapaneni, has your (ARC?) dealer been given *Official* sanction from ARC Central for the utilisation of KT150's ? |
Reading across the forums it would appear increasing numbers of Ref owners are loosing patience with Obfuscation Central and are electing to run with KT150's .......
"I ordered 8 KT150s for my Ref150 from Upscale Audio on Friday - I had them overnighted. Before installing the KT150s I re-biased the original KT120s to the specified 65mVDC. I have a device that plugs in between the power cord and outlet letting you see how much energy you are consuming. It also displays real time wattage and amps. My thinking was to take a reading with KT120s installed and then with the KT150s (set to the same bias) level to see how much additional power the KT150s required. The results are: KT120 (331 watts / 3.04 amps) and KT150 (336 watts / 3.10). The difference does not look significant. I don't know how really meaningful these numbers are and would appreciate anyone's thoughts.
The installation went perfectly - I have had no issues so far. I took temperature readings of the internals and the case with an IR thermometer and did not see notable changes.
I have about 6 hours on the KT150s and I am glad I made the switch. Improved bass, more space around instruments, more meat on vocals and a huge improvement on the sound of guitar strings. I will post additional comments when I have more hours logged. Thanks to all for the great information influencing my switch to the KT150s! " |
Wolf_ whilst In no way insinuating you to be a Numb Nutz....around valve gear, however, i'd be inclined to back the bias right off of the incumbent valves, insert the 150's, then steadily increase bias back to to circuit spec or close to on the conservative side for a while. |
@ David12, I'm curious as to whether you attended the GS series soirée at KJW1 this weekend past? |
Whoa!!! Pause it there, please. @Smoffatt, would you care to re-read my post of the 12th Inst, perhaps paying a little more attention to the punctuation.
@Bifwynne, please note the above.
For my part, I am no stranger to frustration with Obfuscation Central myself, remember 'Capacitor Gate'?.
Whilst recently discussing the GS150 with an ARC sales rep and the main ARC distributor for Europe, I asked whether they had utilized the stock output transformer from the Ref150 line, merely deigning to output the 16 Ohm winding? I was assured that the OPT's as sported on the GS line, had been the subject of an re-design to the winding spec.
They could not elaborate any further, however, one might hypothesise this to indicate larger 8 and 4 Ohm winding sections over the Ref OPT?!?!? |
It would seem that the Death Star may be working on an 'Authorised' tech modification (cost of a handful of resistors and the odd cap unknown at this time) to some of the current production Ref/KT120 models, in order to optimise the utilization of the KT150, Ref 150se anyone!
This would of course enable relatively recent customers to retain any remaining factory/dealer warranty, whilst also affording the proud owner the facility of purchasing ARC factory tested sets of the new OPT's.
Curiously I raised the same point several weeks back, opine-ing, that as frustrated Ref owners were undoubtably going to go Off-piste anyway, that ARC may as well offer an upgrade service and make a few $$$ out of the situation, rather than expecting hordes of Ref owners to upgrade, lemming like, to GS, merely because they are the only officially sanctioned
models within the portfolio sporting the KT150.
Anyway, perhaps an avenue for you consider BiffWhine! |
@Bifwynne, what little I have managed to extract thus far,
Rewound Output Transformers ?!?!? Although I cannot see ARC not utilising the extant Cores and bobbins as sported on the Ref150.
A reworked, and 'perhaps' influential , shortened circuit topology, with a handfull of resistors and the odd capacitor enabling optimisation of the KT150.
And , errr, yes, KT150's.
For my part I am somewhat disappointed that the facility of the 16 Ohm tap has been omitted, however were this to enable the utilization of an improved winding spec then C'est la Vie.
Jasper. |
Bifwynne...Have you given in to the Dark Side for your replacement KT's ? |
