New $35K pivoting tonearm

@Berlinta, Frank, thank you for correcting my error. I looked at photos of an LT arm in Texas and it did not appear to be wood. Neither did the headshell. I must be mistaken. My apologies. I appreciate your contribution to this forum.

06-30-14: Lewm
Jeb, Now please make a cogent argument against wood tonearms, if that is your position. Your arguments by analogy are nonsensical. And if you did not read any of the previous posts, you may not know that Reed, Durand, Schroeder, Pete Riggle, and several others DO currently make and sell wood tonearms.

+1

Wood is just another material. Plastic is used in everywhere and yet nobody complains about it. There many other topics to talk about, such as bearing, wiring, geometry, etc... I'm with Lew, if you can't come up with a good argument, just move on to, say, a $35K tonearm?

.

Jeb, Now please make a cogent argument against wood tonearms, if that is your position. Your arguments by analogy are nonsensical. And if you did not read any of the previous posts, you may not know that Reed, Durand, Schroeder, Pete Riggle, and several others DO currently make and sell wood tonearms.

And those plastic park benches suck, by the way. Nothing like a splinter up your arse to let you know you are in a park. Central Park in NYC still has 100% wood benches for your sitting pleasure.

They used to make boats out of Wood , not any more. Seen a few wood tonearms many years back. Where are they now? They don't even use Wood for park benches anymore.

I started this thread 5 months ago thinking someone might be familiar with, or has heard this arm. I'm a little surprised it doesn't already have a glowing endorsement from Tone magazine, the marketing queen of the industry.

The Durand arms, while not as overpriced, are a little expensive? Seems to me price is based on relative performance and the Vertere arm should be almost twice as good. That's assuming the Durand arm is worth $19.5K.

What about the ViV Rigid Float, anyone familiar? The arm has no offset. The cantilever is inline with the pivot which eliminates most torsional affects on the cantilever. The tradeoff is increased alignment error. The arm has some endorsements from presumably respectable reviewers. There are 3 models of different length, all under $5K.
Regards,

What is odd to me is that the OP started a thread about a $35K tonearm marketed by the previous guru of Roksan, and about which none of us know anything, apart from its cost. Then the venom was directed largely at Durand tonearms for the sin of being "expensive" and made of wood. Yet the Durand tonearms cost much less than $35K (even apparently with the latest and greatest upgrades on a Telos) and have a highly favorable track record already among thoughtful audiophiles. Could it be that certain harsh critics with ulterior motives were lying in the weeds waiting for a chance to snipe at Durand?...... Nah. But not impossible to believe, for reasons which should be obvious to any veterans of the Audiogon Analog forum.

Let's keep in mind that, if one is affiliated with a company making a all-metal tonearm that is price competitive with the Telos, it would be good strategy to dump on the Telos (and Schroeder tonearms) for being made of wood.

Hi,
@ Peterayer: Just to make sure that there is no mis-information spread:
Both armwands and headshells on the LT arms are made out of wood, albeit treated differently to make them impervious to humidity changes and otherwise improve their physical properties.

Some general info for those who consider wood unsuitable for armwands:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

As you can see, the TEC of wood(here fir, untreated, along the grain; other wood species are in the same ballpark)is an order of a magnitude lower than aluminum, even perpendicular to the grain, they are comparable.

Although the headshells on LT arms can hardly be called "composite" headshells, I did use composites on No.2 and Ref. arms, incl. combinations of Delignit, phenolic impregnated silk or paper, different types of wood glued together or less well known high tech polymers.
The use of such materials vs. metals alone is no guarantee for a neutral/accurate tonearm, but properly implemented, they allow for building highly precise and non-resonant structures.
Does such a tonearm "sound" good, aka, does it have as small a sonic signature as possible? Many other factors at play, ultimately it is up to the customer to decide...

And yes, many high end products are overpriced, - but not all of them.

All the best,

Frank Schröder

P.S.: I tried to post essentially the same response a day ago, but it didn't show up til now, hence this, second attempt. I apologize should this lead to a douple posting.

I'm with syntax as well! Next year if not earlier the price may go down more than half-way I figure.

Jazzdoc
Well said. I thought this was a tongue in cheek, mildly humorous take on a 35k arm that no one has heard. My contribution was intended in similar jest. It appears that some Agoners have had "bad" experience with the Durand tonearms. It would be useful to provide a context with details of ownership, system\matching equipment etc. System pics would also be useful.
Disclosure : I am a delighted owner of a Talea2 for 4+ years.
Have a great weekend
Pradeep

Hi,
Just to make sure that no mis-information is spread:
The armwands on the LT arm are still made out of wood. And so is the headshell, albeit both undergo different treatment procedures to make them impervious to changes in humidity.

As for the thermal "stability" of wood vs. other materials often used for armwands, please see here:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

As you can see, wood(direction of grain/untreated fir in this case, other woods are in the same ballpark) has a tec that is an order of a magnitude lower than aluminum and is similar to aluminum when measured perpendicular to the orientation of the grain.

I've been using "composite" armwands on the No.2 arms, and seldomly(upon request) on Ref. arms. Two or more layers of different woods, sometimes in conjunction with Delignit or high tech polymers qualify as a composite too(in my book anyway)

And yes, a lot of high end gear is overpriced, - but not all of it.

Have a relaxed sunday,

Frank Schröder

Conflict of interest alert: I own two Durand tonearms; a Telos and a Talea.

To clear up some of the unintended misinformation on this thread...

a. The new composite Telos armwand is not an upgrade; it is an option.
b. The composite armwand does not use a mounting plate.
c. The sapphire cartridge mounting plate is only used with wooden Telos armwand.
d. The sapphire bearing column for the Telos is an upgrade. As to the cost, I believe the earlier comment "It better not be worth the money or I will leave depressed" nicely summarizes.

For those who have expressed disdain for the "back scratchers" and "wooden spoons", I am sorry that your experience the tonearms was disappointing. So that the community could learn from your expertise, please share more about your audition experience, i.e. system context, LP's used to audition, etc. Thank you in advance.

06-26-14: Larryi
I recall that a very rare Air Tangent arm allowed for remotely controlled VTA. I never heard of azimuth being adjustable that way. Kuzma had an arm pillar with a digital readout that made it easy to adjust the arm up or down and get back to a prior adjustment (just remember the number), but, actual adjustment was not by remote control.

You are referring to the VTA arm tower for the Stabi XL turntables which has a gauge with a round dial.

Frank Schroder is using a composite arm for his new Linear Tracking arm. His old arms used to be wood also.

Will the Telea II model switch over to composite as well?

Unoear, are you referring to the DD platform that Jtinn is selling? I imagine the new arms were developed in part on that same platform, the Wave Kinetics table.

One of the most expensive back scratchier in the world, Or... A pair of them could be used for tossing salads.

Finely tuned WOODEN SPOON

Turns out that Telos after many years of research have finally cottoned on that wood is not ideal for a tonearm, and is indeed in this instance a wooden spoon, or kindling as Syntax would say.

I must have had great foresight about a year ago when I was criticised for describing on the Telos as a "wooden spoon" on the Wave Kinetics thread.

Gotta hear that!

It better not be worth the money or I will leave depressed.

I suspect 'twas a poor Japanese translation ...:-)

I recall that a very rare Air Tangent arm allowed for remotely controlled VTA. I never heard of azimuth being adjustable that way. Kuzma had an arm pillar with a digital readout that made it easy to adjust the arm up or down and get back to a prior adjustment (just remember the number), but, actual adjustment was not by remote control.

The instruction manual with my new Transfiguration Proteus says that on some arms VTA and azimuth can be adjusted by remote. Did try my HT Denon remote....no way.
Is this the new genie out of the bottle ?

...chasing, changing, migrating, pixy dust, alchemical hope. The poor designer appears to fall under, "stress is the artifact of an inappropriate model." Maybe, the problem lies not with the design itself, but with the platform, aka "model," that supports this arm during the tuning-in phase...as the reseller of this platform has been known to say, "designed by west coast grads, etc.".

Cheers!

The optional 4.5K cost sapphire head shell spacer is NOT used on the new updated composite arm wand . Oops... on running out and buying one! Useless on the new arm wand. Throw it in the
goldfish tank next to the fancy glass marbles. Ouch!!!

And apparently there is no trade in discount. Throw away the old, buy the new which has new wires and supposedly sounds much, much better. So $19.5K for the Telos + $6K for the composite wand, more $KK for the sapphire bearing. This is in the high $20Ks now and there are so many options/versions, I've lost track.

Are there different length composite arm wand upgrades available? Can you install the sapphire cartridge mounting plate on the composite wand, or does that degrade performance?

The mid tear Durand seems like a promising design which never had a wood arm tube option.

Jeb, No joke?

19.5 K for the Durand " TELOS" WOOD tonearm. This audio bargain of the century has a NEW updated arm wand . It is now made from a mystery blend of composites (plastics) NOT wood! Cost for this upgrade is only 6K!

A wood Arm is never wasted, you can still use it to light up your fireplace.

Hold on to your wallets folks... This is for All you suckers that paid 19.5 K for the Durand " TELOS" WOOD tonearm. This audio bargain of the century has a NEW updated arm wand . It is now made from a mystery blend of composites (plastics) NOT wood! Cost for this upgrade is only 6K! The good news ... the old wooded arm will not go to waste. It will make a killer finely tuned back scratchier.

Hate to disappoint the designer's quest for unique selling points but the Syrinx PU2 I was using back in the early 1980s had offset bearings...

It was a thing of beauty in a minimalist kind of way. ;)

Swampie, To be a Devil's advocate, I would say that a solid metal rod or a hollow metal tube is less likely to warp when it does expand and contract based on ambient temperature. Also, metal is much less sensitive to humidity, compared to wood. On the other hand, I really have liked the sound from wood tonearms I have heard, so I think such concerns about wood are largely bunk.

Not to beat a dead horse but when I questioned wood as a to earl material it was pointed out that metal also expands and contracts w temp change. Assuming (big jump) a competent designer I cools not agree more; it's all implementation. And design trade offs of which there are many.

Agree with Doug; I think it's the non-regular structure of a good hardwood that benefits a wood arm wand vs a metal one, for dissipating energy. But this thread is not about wood tonearms; sorry. Love my Reed. Have really liked a Talea in my friend's system.

Agree with Syntax that the primary function of this arm's price is to attract attention... which we are providing. ;-)

Disagree on the viability of wood as an armwand material, and windy hyperbole will not blow it out of the room.

Energy transfer is not the only way to stop stray mechanical noise from reaching (or reflecting back to) the cartridge. Energy absorption can also be effective, particularly at higher frequencies. The chaotic, cellular structure of wood, especially dense hardwood, provides millions of boundary transitions that scatter and randomize HF energies, preventing the buildup of resonance patterns. These energies are also attenuated as molecular level vibrations are converted to heat. In this application, wood can be a usefully lossy medium.

The Durand armwands have a lower sound floor than any metal armwand I've heard, especially in the musical harmonics region. I believe their wood armwands contribute to this.

As usual, there's more than one way to skin an audio cat... it's all in the implementation.

The AMG uses a spring for vertical motion. i'm sure that is what makes it sound different. Is the diff better or worse, don't know, have not heard it.

Thanks, Sarcher30, for the info. I saw a DIY arm uses flex bearings before. Good to know!

_______

The only kind of bearing that works like that, and does not change the geometry, when flexed, are Flex Pivot bearings. Why they don't just come out and say that is what they are using, I don't know. Probably don't want anyone else to catch on. They seem to be an ideal bearing for a tonearm though. Here is a link to a company that makes Flex Pivot bearings, to give you an idea of how they work. http://www.flexpivots.com/

If they are not Flex Pivot bearings then I don't understand how they could accomplish what they say they do, without some bad consequences. For instance, if you flex a spring, side to side, or up and down, it will bend not pivot. When it bends it will follow a more severe arc than a point that pivots. That would be bad thing.

I read that the bearings are "leaf bearings" or "non-rotating polymer-metal laminate films." Can someone tell me what that is? In a video interview, the designer mentioned the bearings do not have to pivot up and down or left and right and have limited motion just enough for tracking. He said the vertical motion has 22º or 23º of freedom and about 60º of freedom.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

_______

Lewm, my comments on the wooden arms have to do with some of their pricing
and not their sonic quality. Its what this thread is mostly about, that at a certain
point you have to say enough is enough. I'm sure that the price of this arm will
serve its purpose and provide Vertere with plenty of free advertising, and I wish
them success in their business. There IS one born every minute. As far as WT
goes, there's 10 of those born every minute!

I wonder what the birth rate is for this?
"HiFi-Tuning Supreme Fuses - 99% Silver + 1% Gold = 100% Sound"

Syntax, I like your sense of humor, but I must disagree with you on the subject of wood tonearms. I own a few that I like very much, and even in theory there are some properties of some hardwoods that seem well suited to the job. I don't own a Durand, but I would like to (Talea, not Telos). Also, although your remark did make me laugh, I strongly doubt that any well done wood tonearm will be affected when your wife opens the window, unless perhaps you are experiencing a typhoon. Why is a metal rod (choose your metal) more sophisticated, or even "better", necessarily? Both types can sound very good. If the early Schroeder tonearms have a flaw (and I don't know that they do) it is more likely related to the string bearing than to the wood composition, IMO. I've got an old but virtually NOS Grace wood tonearm that I have been thinking of modifying by adding side weights at the pivot; it has the potential of any modern expensive wood tonearm, if you like unipivots and if you don't hate wood.
Dkarmeli, I have long tried to hold my tongue when it comes to the WT tonearms, because there are so many devotee's on the internet, but I do agree with your assessment of them. I just don't get the enthusiasm, at all.

you have to be kidding for that kind of money.

Syntax, You're right and I feel the same looking at a chopstick with a hinge for
thousands of dollars. Lets not forget the same reviewers raving about the
ultimate toilet flush design, the Well Tempered arm...

In a way he is the first one who offers a normal Arm in that new price range. Personally I will wait until I can listen to one. I agree, when JV will get one as a long term "reference" we will read that a new sonic wonder hit our Planet. But, to be fair, none of you showed identical "emotion" when pieces of wood became available for 8k (Schroeder) or later the piece of wood from Durand (double).
Where is the beef? Designed by knife or expensive material which really has some energy transfer? Each his own but I think, a good executed Arm for 35k can serve more sonic pleasure than a material which changes its parameters when your wife opens the window. And, take care of

Audiophile rule No. 1: No Panic

Any manufacturer who wants to be taken serious, needs a high ticket device. Downgrade from top is more simple than to move up from the bottom. It is a Roksan Arm in new clothes...and a new name.

G m c, you're not imagining it, vaseline and colonoscopy lights included!

are the additional conductors in the wire feed for led lights on/in the tonearm? or am i imagining this?

$35,000.00 tone arm, at lease for this money you have something to play with.
I think the wire industry tops it all even surpassing the cryogenic treated cable elevators .
There are many examples and right now on sale here on Audiogon,
a 6 foot Elrod ac cord for $15,000.00 marked down because it is used ,yours only $8,000.00,....
The envelope is always pushed only when there are customers that are willing to buy into it , I think this speaks volumes and I need to come out with a new line of wire,....

Rereading the description it seems the headshell and armtube are made separately then welded together.

It says, horizontal and vertical bearings are offset by 23mm so the effective length is different in the 2 planes and correctly optimized. I don't see how this is any different from other arms with offset bearings.

Regards,

$35000 for a tone arm?? One thing for sure...JV will review it and give it a rave review if he can use it as a long term reference.

I thought the really unique aspects of this arm are the different horizontal and vertical effective lengths (offset bearings so inertia is different in horizontal and vertical directions) and the pivoting counter weight so that VTF and SRA aren't as effected by record warps. Those seem to be fairly unique features. I think there is also a light at the headshell to illuminate the LP for groove selection.

I did hear this arm a year or so ago at the NYC audio show in an unfamiliar system. There was no way to isolate the performance of the arm from the rest of the gear. The system sounded OK.

The price is outrageous.

The Axiom and Schroeder LT arms are more interesting, IMO. They are also expensive, but not 3X+ the competition.

01-27-14: Fleib
Well, I didn't say any of the features are unique.

Well the $35K list price is rather unique, for a tonearm anyway. ;)

Well, I didn't say any of the features are unique. They seem to be the highlights of the PDF. The bearing material might be unique and the claim is, it's the only arm with completely silent bearings, although even if true I'm not sure how relevant that is. Friction spec is not provided.

The armtube/headshell is machined out of one piece of titanium, but so is my old Alphason 100S. I was hoping someone who heard the arm would comment.
Regards,

Ill be jumping on one soon Ho Ho!!