Neutral Dac?

@grannyring  Hey Bill that is awesome thank you. I know we both use the Circle Labs A200 so knowing there’s synergy is helpful and Tron is not a dac that was on my radar. Colin is a great guy and also using his tchernov usb cable which is amazing(I still have your Acoustic BBQ usb and still think very highly of it). Knowing you well and trusting your ears, your recommendation holds great weight and thank you!

@schw06 

Like you I have owned and listened to many dacs over the years. I enjoyed many of them. However, I sensed there was still a dac out there that could do a better job of consistently engaging me into my music.  One that would become the foundation of my music sytem(s).   I never thought I would spend the kind of money I did several months ago on a Tron Atlantic dac.  My wife and I are thrilled with the purchase however.  This dac is really one that nails exactly what you are hoping for in your system and music enjoyment. It delivers in spades on my desires. It is the centerpiece of my system and the most transparent, pure and even handed dac I have heard.  

Tron offers this dac in 3 levels. I purchased the top level offering. I suggest just trying it in your system. Gestalt Audio Design in Nashville can help you.  Talk to Colin as you already know him. I tried this dac and was moved to buy it.  Most expensive single piece of gear I have ever purchased.  However, it is the BEST audio purchase I have made to date.  Best decision I have made.  I think the price range is $8,000 - $13,500 depending on the level.  Yes, a lot of money. 
 

@audphile1 in that $5k ballpark what dacs would you put in the “natural” category?

As to that bit of a background you provided, I would look for the most natural sounding DAC. I think we’re past the “neutral” dac discussion here.
From there move on to level of resolution, details, imaging, soundstage. You will begin to scratch that surface at around $5k retail price. Benchmark and Schiit won’t be your ticket. 

@hilde45 +1

@schw06 you didn’t offend me at all. Besides, you came around. We’re good.   

I honestly don’t care how it measures, If it’s considered neutral or lush, or whatever and however you want to describe it.  I only care about how it sounds in my system.  

@soix @oddiofyl Thank you both for weighing in those helpful examples.

@hilde45 i agree and hate the word neutral so how about if I substitute the term “dac that minimizes coloration” .

I am a big believer in synergy.   I had a NAD m51.  Sounded great in my system.   Why I replaced it with the RME ,  I’ll never know.  
 

That’s not to say I didn’t like the RME , I did but the NAD has a more natural sound to me.  The RME is what you would expect from a studio DAC , clean and clear.  
 

I have an all tube system, have for a while.   Except the DAC.  I have always said I would never buy a tube DAC.   I guess my logic was that if it had tubes it would be colored and not true to the source.   
 

Then I put a LAB 12 DAC 1 Reference in the system and it’s like the best of body worlds.  Plenty of detail, great tone , body, it just rocks….

There's no such thing as neutrality.

The two most uncolored components I’ve had in my system was a Bryston BP-6 stereo preamp and my current Musician Pegasus R2R DAC. The Pegasus does a superb job of maintaining tonality and fluidity but without truncating upper treble detail that some R2R DACs get accused of doing. I recently added a Denafrips Iris DDC to allow me to take advantage of the Pegasus’ i2S input and got yet another significant boost in transparency, detail, soundstage, and imaging. At $1100 I think it’s the epitome of not only a neutral but also a natural-sounding component that to me is the best of both worlds and is also a great value for the level of performance it provides.

@audphile1 I appreciate your time and thought in your response and apologize if my response offended you…not my intent at all. I appreciate your advice about not seeking out absolute neutrality in system building.
Maybe I should put a little more “meat on the bones” of my point/question as the lack of background has led the thread a bit astray. I’ve been afflicted with the hobby for close to 25 years. If you look at my feedback (which embarrassingly is probably only half the transactions) you’ll see I’ve rifled through way too many speakers/amps/sources. For future system building I’m just trying to assemble a few pieces to use as neutral/relatively uncolored benchmarks to compare against. They won’t necessarily be in my primary system (but might depending on synergy).
For me, too much seasoning in a system with compensating one colored component for another is not the approach I want to take and believe there’s usually a spot or 2 where uncolored gear improves the system…hence my question about what people view as a neutral/uncolored dac.

Have some mention the Soekris 2541 as a candidate.

You completely missed my point but that’s ok.

@audphile1 

I agree about measurements and cost. Apparently asking peoples opinions about what they consider an uncolored dac is unanswerable in your opinion. Thanks for weighing in. 

@schw06

Forget measurements. Forget the cost.
What is your definition of neutral and uncolored? How would you possible know that you heard it? What is your reference point that would help you determine that?

How do you know that you just heard a dac that colored the sound or didn’t color it when you literally have every single element starting from power, outlet, cables, source, I can go on and on here, impacting the overall presentation. Unless you can answer these questions and eliminate all of the change factors from the equation, there’s no way to get to the answer. No one could possibly answer this for you.

Don’t burden yourself with getting to ultimate neutrality of components. When you build a system that gives you goosebumps when you sit down to listen, that is a far bigger achievement than soliciting thoughts from others on whats the most neutral DAC. Who cares. 

Everyone's reference will be different than yours. The system and room you hear a component in provides a different starting point and as @mlsstl points out, it comes down to your ears and preferences. Most shops are happy to let you try / demo a piece in your rig. If you don't have a local shop most manufacturers have demo programs. Even if you have to drop some dough on return shipping it is well worth it to find the piece that works best in your system.

@mlsstl  Well said but I'd argue there isn't a single forum discussion that isn't ultimately meaningless. That being said I have experienced some dacs that have a lot more "personality" than others and curious about people's opinions of dacs that are the amp equivalent of "straight wire with gain". I'm trying to stay away from the concept of system synergy.

@2psyop Thanks for weighing in. Ironically one of the 2 of those manufacturers makes a dac that I consider to have very little personality(exactly what I'm asking about). I've not heard the other brand.

In reference to anything audio, "uncolored" is in the eye (well, ear) of the beholder. You can pick any DAC out there and you will find those who think it's great and others who say it's garbage.  You are the only person who can decide what works for you, but admittedly, discussing things with those who have a differing opinion can make for interesting, but ultimately meaningless discussions. 

I would say other electronics in any given system will affect the sound as much or more than the DAC. And additionally the "synergy " between the components and the room itself. Even though I don’t like the word "synergy" as it tends to not specify the problem much. I have a Schiit DAC and a Benchmark DAC and I think other components actually have more impact on the "neutrality " of sound in my high fidelity system. IMHO