I have compared streaming to my ripped cd files. maybe my system is not resolving enough but I truly find it hard to detect a big difference, MAYBE on certain albums I can just detect a hint more digital glare or harshness to the streamed file compared to my local ripped file but its a tough call.
Well, allow me to introduce myself first. I'm a passionate audiophile who use high quality digital sources like Esoteric/Emm Labs/etc. When playing file from server couldn't match the quality of flagship CD transport, I developed my own solution that could be considered very close and satisfying enough for me to enjoy.
Then I signed up for Tidal streaming CD quality, it was a disappointment comparing to tracks I ripped from CD with Plextor Premium2 drive. Many of my highend audiophile friends and vendors also told me in private that Tidal sounds unacceptable for highend systems. They also sell and use with other servers too not just my products.
So, I spent years searching for promising solution to cure network inferiority hoping I can enjoy Tidal streaming with my systems. I couldn't find one that I can truly enjoy with. They usually sound more cleaner or more spatial with richer ambient or more quiet but couldn't get solid dynamics and coherent sound that can deliver good deep and tight bass with good control and expand.
Well, at least my recent product is good enough for me to deliver missing aspects and my friend who used to complain about Tidal now say he can enjoy Tidal in serious highend system even with airplay. Some also said it's like playing from hard drive directly. So I get satisfying results now.
I think having a good reference to compare will make evaluation of our systems being more rational. Going streaming only is also fine. I'm just curious if there's anyone else comparing between streaming and good quality local playback to notice the difference.
I don't know. I cannot possibly try them all. I have an Innuos ZENith MK3 and a DAC with USB input, so I look for potential solutions that may improve that particular set up. It's worth experimenting and trying different things. It's a hobby, so it's fun
@thyname Ok, USB to the endpoint makes it super clear. I got confused thinking RJ45 to the endpoint was the goal.
I understand there are some clocking things (beyond my pay scale of understanding) that the EtherREGEN does but I wonder how it compares with the following for USB end point streaming. So taking the EtherREGEN + OpticalRendu scenario you described and comparing with the following:
You get Ethernet (copper) from router / main switch into the B side of EtherRegen
Then you buy a SFP fiber transceiver for EtherRegen (it has a FMC port, but not the transceiver). Something life the one at the bottom of this page ($20):
@thyname When I originally read about the EtherREGEN it was 3AM. Now that I had my 2 hours of sleep I looked at this again with full mental agility. :)
It seems the question I need answering is what goes into the streaming endpoint in the EtherREGEN + OpticalRendu flow, is it USB or RJ45?
I can help you understand, although it’s self explanatory.
ultraRendu has optical input. So you need a fiber cable to feed it. So you ‘turn around” the EtherRegen.
I am not the sharpest tool in the toolbox so I still do not get it. I think you may have wanted to say opticalRendu instead of ultraRendu, Sonore states as "Cable Ethernet Input to USB-Audio Output".
Whatever, the case, I will figure it out and I will buy this EtherREGEN since it is an obvious business expense for my office network.
Thanks for your effort in explaining.
Don't worry about further explanations I will give a call EtherREGEN and figure it out over email or phone.
First delivery is scheduled for November 15. Having said this, based on an AudiphileStyle post yesterday, Alex from UpTone shipped 35 units yesterday. So 35 people will likely get them tomorrow (Saturday, November 9).
I am in the first batch, but it does not appear I will be amongst the first 35 recipients.
Yeah... I agree in your case there is no need to maintain other devices. The Ayre EX-8 would indeed take care of everything as one-box solution. Enjoy!
Thyname Right now I do not, once I bought the EX8 I sold off all the equipment that this unit replaced, DAC, Headphone amp etc. However I have tried the USB input from my iPad mini2 using Amazon UltraHd tracks and I have to admit that it sounded pretty darn good to say the iPad is streaming over my wifi network. So yes I am of an open mind as obviously the EX8 trying to be a swiss army knife cannot hope to compete with more costly item specific units.
@uberwaltz : I used to have the Ayre QX-5 Twenty. So I can freely speak about it. The QX-5 Twenty had the Ethernet "bridge" built in. However, it sounded better (to me) when using the USB input with a good external streamer, than the built in Ethernet bridge. But that is just me. You can try it for yourself (assuming you have a good quality USB streamer / end point).
That EtherRegen does seem like something interesting if you have an RJ45 input in your DAC with a built-in Roon Ready Media Server in the DAC, such as a Lyngdorf 3400 integrated. If you used the Sonore USB based output products on this Integrated you would be wasting money by not using the built-in RJ45 streaming of the DAC.
Exactly why it is on my very interested list as my EX8 has just that input for streaming too.
I can help you understand, although it’s self explanatory.
ultraRendu has optical input. So you need a fiber cable to feed it. So you ‘turn around” the EtherRegen.
That switch is more than galvanic isolation that fiber provides. EtherREGEN has two isolated data/power/clock domains. Each isolated domain is re-clocked using 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter (less than 0.8 picoseconds) differential flip-flops. So full isolation and reclocker
For the few people who have an endpoint with optical input (the excellent Sonore opticalRendu comes to mind), one can “turn around” the EtherREGEN and feed that DAC-connected endpoint from the optical cage, while connecting the lone ‘B’-side port to the network. Thus ‘B’ >’A’.
This EtherRegen device seems like it would be better than 2 Sonore opticalModules to go from Ethernet RJ45 -> OM -> Fiber Optical Ethernet -> OM -> Ethernet RJ45. Simpler seems better to me but I have not heard either.
The Sonore modules that output USB is what I have heard and own and they seem simpler in the audio data flow.
That EtherRegen does seem like something interesting if you have an RJ45 input in your DAC with a built-in Roon Ready Media Server in the DAC, such as a Lyngdorf 3400 integrated. If you used the Sonore USB based output products on this Integrated you would be wasting money by not using the built-in RJ45 streaming of the DAC.
@grannyring Don’t you have the Lyngdorf 3400? I am demoing this with an external amp (SimAudio 860 or Luxman m900u) and the new to USA Yamaha NS 5000 ASAP.
You probably know this, but if you were not fast enough to order EtherRegen within one hour from launch, and order it now, you won't get it until some time in 2020
Yw David. Of course now have to decide if I want to purchase them or look at other avenues. i am sure I would get them at about 45% of retail but still a fair cost Decisions!
To spice things up, I ordered the EtherRegen the day it launched. Lucky enough, able to make into the first batch. So it ships on November 15th. It will be interesting to compare it with the opticalModules. Replacing them entirely. We'll see ....
@thyname Thanks. Your findings are important to me. I've held off on adding fiber "links" within my system because I do not want to screw up aspects like timbre and tonality (both of which you report on positively) etc.
FunJoe's switches have been out for quite a while and may be worth a look. He has two versions: one with 24 ports, a Femto clock and upgraded LPS and the other is an 8 port unit with (I think) just the Femto clock.
No idea about the reasons why. I can tell you that when I put the TPLinks, the improvement was almost nonexistent. Totally different level with the opticalModules.
@grannyring -- simple: Ethernet (copper) coming from router ----> first opticalModule (powered by one SGC 5v linear power supply) ---> fiber cable ----> second opticalModule (powered by a second SGC lps) ----> Ethernet Cable (copper) ----> Innuos ZENith MK3 ethernet input.
The opticalModules replaced a pair of tPLinks FMCs I used to have before.
Improvement is audible. Mostly in timbre and tonality. Everything sounded more natural, and more focused.
@yyzsantabarbara. I have an SOTM Switch using SOTM Cat 7 DBL copper ethernet cabling. I also have an Innuos Server/Streamer and will most likely get two of the Sonore optical modules like @thyname.
@thyname. Please share how you set up (Wired) your two optical modules to your Innuos and the resulting sound quality improvement realized?
To be fair, I found some network switch mods or audiophile built products making mediocre or subtle improvements over stock one too. I think it also depend on which network switch you try and with what device and application you play with.
If designer has good reference ears and can tell good quality from listening rather than just specsheet alone, he usually build something he can truly enjoy with his standards.
For those who never have any real experience before, they shouldn't assume too much. I'm also challenging network experts here in Thailand for testing switch in multimedia. Hopefully someone will join up.
Oh they are great! As I said, I currently own a pair of opticalModules. In terms of streamers and servers, I was very happy with Sonore solutions, but I ended up getting an Innuos ZENith MK3 last January, that works well for me, and takes care of both streaming and "serving" (and CD ripping)
@thyname Given your history with the Sonore products what is your opinion on the Sonore products and their place in this thread's discussion about Network Switches. My experience will have me continue to stay with the Rendu.
I have been using Sonare products since the first day the microRendu became available. After I used the
Rendus' I became confident that, FOR ME, the Rendu isolated the computer processing from the audio signal. What I mean is that a busy CPU did not correlate with a degraded audio, FOR ME. Unlike a direct USB connection from the CPU to the DAC. I listen 8 hours a day M-F for years with the Rendu. The Rendu's are awesome products. BTW - I said FOR ME.
I have not bought the Optical yet because I am waiting for any bugs to work themselves out. Only issue for me now is that the next DAC (demo of speakers upcoming) I get may already have an RJ45 Ethernet streaming built-in (noisy) so I may live with that until I get more funds.
@david_ten : thanks for your post on Sonore. I was replying to someone else.
I am very familiar with the company. I currently own two opticalModules from them and SGC linear power supplies. Over the years, I have owned other products for them, including microRendu, ultraRendu, and SGC server (i5).
Good you found out for yourself by actually doing it and testing. Now you have first hand experience! I have done the same as was also very impressed with the sonic results! Be sure and use great ethernet cables like the Cat 7 sold by SOTM. At least try it! A good low cost one is the Cat 8 from Supra.
I have been watching this thread since its inception as the subject matter is of great interest to myself as a possible upgrade. Then it got a little out of hand but now seems to be on an even keel again and with Davids blessing feel I need to post this.
But first a bit of background to set the scene; My "trade" is installing and commissioning huge multi million dollar high speed production packaging lines all over the USA. These comprise of many individual complex pieces which are now all connected and communicated to/from by industrial Ethernet. This entails many I/o drops, repeaters and switches. Obviously these have to be of the highest quality and robustness as we cannot afford any part of the system crashing, stopping, performing none approved actions etc as millions of dollars are at stake! Nearly all of our electronics are Siemens.
Ok, so I started to think what if? Just so happens I had an eight port switch and its matching 24v LPS in my "office" so time to test it out. Now this was a quick down and dirty install as the LPS is mean to be hardwired inside cabinets fed by 460/120v transformers in the field so no power cord as such, ended up butchering a stock power cord to make it work for today.
So this setup replaced my el cheapo (sub $10) 4 port 5v USB power switch that then feeds direct into my Ayre EX8 super integrated from my modem/router. All Siemens cat 7 cabling by the way, don’t ask the source.... lol.
Well first up I streamed some ripped CD,s from my NAS and what did I hear? Well nothing tbh. And by that I mean the absolute blackest midnight inky silence between notes I have ever heard, period! It is not subtle at all. I must have had more bass bloom/boom that I thought as now bass notes are so well delineated that it is almost like a new instrument has been thrown into the mix! The texture of acoustic guitar for example is startling in its intensity. This is obviously something I should have looked at LONG ago! But I was a bit of a doubter that something so simple could be so big. Now this gear is not audiophile ( whatever the heck that means anyway!), but it is of the highest industrial standard and cost to the consumer would be about $900 for the switch and LPS. Now I just have to make up something a little bit better and neater for power and best place to locate it etc.
This I only got round to this morning so low listening hours for sure but that will change rapidly I can assure you!
@thyname I’m a long-time Sonore customer and currently have their previous gen (non optologic) Sonore Signature Rendu SE player. I’m also a long-time customer of Small Green Computer for their servers. I’ve paired SGC with Sonore for a number of years now.
I had the opportunity to try Sonore’s (as they refer to it) "Signature Rendu SE - single enclosure opticalRendu and linear power supply" very early on but chose to hold off until SGC released a server with an SFP. SGC is out with their unit, but I’m holding off on making a final choice in a Server.
I also followed the very lengthy Computer Audiophile (now AS) thread on addressing network (and noise) isolation with the use of layered fiber solutions. I chose to hold off on doing so for a number of reasons, primary among them was the need to hear a fiber based system to determine if the resulting sound quality / performance met my needs and goals.
You didn’t have specific questions in your previous post. If you do, let us know and I’ll respond if I’m in a position to address them.
@atdavid Thank you for your advice. About my product, I don't ever recall talking about it publicly except sharing that I launched a new product on that day and that's all. Aside from that, I'm sharing my opinions as fellow audiophile. I know some smart companies are using proxies to promote their goods but it's not my style though.
I don't consider myself as a business owner in audiophile market. Maybe that'd be my weakness but I'm glad I still have clients who understand my nature and support me regardless. I'm trying to overcome this shortcoming and get over it soon.
Well, networked audio is a new territory to audiophiles and not many people are well informed about it. Imperfections are often hidden in the dark like 10G promoting end to end verification to improve transmission for the first time and no one said anything about this issue so far.
I am back to this discussion and will tout the Sonare product again. See the post below about eliminating the noise that these switches are also trying to eliminate.
@atdavid I'm Keetakawee from Fidelizer. You know internet bring the worse things of mankind and I took my stance to fight those who try to ruin other people's hobby like them. However, I always treat my clients right and you will never see anyone being mistreated as a client.
This switch is what I developed for myself along with other possible products I decided to use it personally because it will lead to controversial if they get out to light. I bought a few audiophile switches before, trying some highend one along with other tweaks without success and EtherStream is too effective to keep in the dark. And they don't need to pay larger sum of money like $600-1500 USD.
Hi @nonoise Yes, I saw that on Facebook group promoted by someone. Yes, it is not so expensive, but it is a modified Cisco SG110D-08 switch, not something built on purpose from the ground up like the EtherRegen
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