Network optimization for serious streamers

@thyname you may have the exact same issue with a loose wire in your modem power supply necessitating it’s replacement. 😊 only a 90 minute chat yielded a technical assistant who thought it was strange but did indeed send a replacement ps.  Strange I asked that a $2 part might have a loose internal connection?   Every time it was bumped it would blink the power on and off…..

So I am thinking get a second from Verizon or Amazon and cut off the barrel w some wire and solder it myself.

@fastfreight :

and what is the barrel connection into the G3100 Verizon modem???  None of the adapters I try work.  One fits in but I do not think the center pin makes contact.  Do I need to buy a replacement from Verizon and cut it off?  Please help!

I cannot help with that. In fact, I posted the same thing in this thread back in February:

 

 

I tried to do this with my Verizon FIOS G3100 router, and I failed:

 

Why? Couldn’t find the wiring and dimensions of its DC input connector. None of the standard ones work. And the Verizon folks had no clue. As usual. I tried everything.

 

Hello all, including @thyname ​​@lalitk ​​​​@antigrunge !

 

Hope everyone is well.  Enjoying our 1 year anniversary on Tortola!

 

so I now have my GrimmMU1 going AES into my Tambaqui and love it.

I have sold my Aries G2.1.  I now am not using my super Gucci Sean Jacobs DC4 Ar6 power supply.  It has three outputs which can be adjusted, at least one. 12v and two others.  Being in your guys camp off everything matters, I am considering using this top power supply for my M12 Gold switch and my Verizon G3100 modem.  I already have a JCAT OPTIMO 3 Duo doing this nicely.  It costs about 2000 vs about 10,000 for the Sean Jacobs.  The OPTIMO 3 is also likely easier to sell.  
So a long ramble into 2 questions:

what do you think? :)

and what is the barrel connection into the G3100 Verizon modem???  None of the adapters I try work.  One fits in but I do not think the center pin makes contact.  Do I need to buy a replacement from Verizon and cut it off?  Please help!

Thanks!

@willgolf 

They are frikking expensive.  I recently purchased a QSA Silver Jitter Plug.   Oh my did that ever work.  I was lucky enough to get that used. 

I'm glad you're enjoying the QSA Jitter Plug. I have the Red version and am equally enamored by the improvement it brings to my music listening. A couple of months ago I was trying to raise funds for another audio purchase and thought about selling the plug. I took it out of the system for just two days and realized how much it was bringing to the table. Changed my mind and put it right back in the chain. Sometimes what seems to be a subtle improvement at first can make all the difference in the world.

@agisthos where did you buy it? Did you have a 30 day return option?

I just want to give an update on the Melco C100 ethernet cable, because what it does ties directly into network optimization.

One end of the cable has a floated ground, so its ’asymmetric’. The idea is to not pass noise downstream, instead noise can only drain one way (backwards), away from your streamer/dac e.t.c

The theory makes sense to me, so I got one in to test. Immediately out the box, with no break in (if you believe in that) it was much superior to the Nordost Heimdall 2 ethernet. You can buy 6x of the Melco for one of the Nordost cables.

A qualifier - I do not have any fancy audiophile switches yet, just a basic Netgear switch. So perhaps my network setup is noisy and the Melco is a real benefit here but in a higher end setup maybe the Nordost would be preferred.

But for now I don’t really care because for the price the C100 is an absolute bargain. I have 3x more coming to isolate the NAS/Modem/Wireless devices upstream at the router.

@sns  I just noticed a comment you made on 28th Jan about the addition of the Finisar 1475 being the final upgrade of your ethernet stage.

Can I ask your impressions of it?  I'm at the same stage.  I have the FTLX1471D3BTL and am very happy with the sound, but like all here I'm always looking for improvements.

@willgolf 

I just forwarded my contact info via PM. Looking forward to speaking with you. 

 

Just ordered two more of the Linkup 8 cables.  The build quality compared to what I had was night and day.  If interested in Hijirii call Colin King at Gestalt Audio in Nashville.  A great guy, with great equipment and you can test drive the cables.

Very interesting read, thanks. BTW, you can find me over on WBF too, I spend a lot more time over there but post little. You can see my system in my sig on WBF if interested.

As to the LinkUp 8 cables, I'd work backwards from the Muon Pro cable. I did find that I got the biggest SQ increase from the ONT (optical network terminal - where the fiber enters your house) to the router, and from the streamer back to the wall connection. But for $37 each, I have them in the entire signal path, starting at ONT going to router, then router to A side of an ER, out the B side of the ER to the wall, and then from the wall in the audio room to my N10 streamer. They work great for TV as well. I've been slowly learning about the network side of the equation for some time now and I think this is an exploding part of the industry where big leaps are being made in the digital world. I know my system has made great strides with the changes I've made in cables, Uptone Audio EtherRegen + Paul Hynes LPS, etc. -I will be interested to read about your Muon Pro system and the switch when you get it.

I've been deliberating going Hijiri as well. Just need to get a couple other things done first. Lalit speaks highly of them and so does grannyring, and really many others on the Hijiri thread here on Agon. If you've not seen that thread, please go look it up and comment on your experience, I'd appreciate it.

Finally, will also be very interested to read about Aries Cerat.

@pokey77 

I recently received two of the Linkup8 cables to go along with the Muon Pro streaming cables.  Right now I am waiting for my upgraded LDMS.  I am trying to figure out where to use the Linkup cables.  My thought right now is to start at the front end in my network closet.  Example....Netgear modem to Araknis Router WAN....Araknis router to Araknis Switch.   Once I get my Teddypardo LPS I will use it to go from the Netgear to the Araknis router.  

I do value a few individuals on Audiogon although I am more prone to go to WBF for advice.  I have a full loom of Hijiri Powercords and RCA cables and Sternklang SPDIF cable.  I believe Grannyring has used them also.  I am a newby to this network discussion and I have learned a ton in the last 2-3 weeks talking to a few people on the phone from these threads.  I need to call Lalitk but it is so hard to get in contact with people on Audiogon vs WBF.  

I am also studying the QSA Lanedri thread on WBF.  I have been a proponent of boutique fuses and love the QSA lineup.   They are frikking expensive.  I recently purchased a QSA Silver Jitter Plug.   Oh my did that ever work.  I was lucky enough to get that used.  I was going to buy their LAN cables but ended up buying the Muon cables.  

This hobby is so damn addicting.  Soon I will be posting my journey to Aries Cerat on WBF.  These will be my final audio purchases.  

@willgolf 

Hey Will,

The recommendations you are getting from @lalitk are solid. I realize you are functionally blind, but if possible, take a look at lalitk's system. It is very dialed in and thought out.

Network cables are certainly important in a system. I use the cable he recommended above throughout my system for over a year now, from ONT (optical network terminal) all the way to my N10 streamer. It made the most difference for me from the wall to streamer and from the ONT to the Router. I've not used or demoed any of the $500+ Network cables, but the four sub $100 cables that I've tried including Supra Cat8+, a known hi-value Network cable, were all easily trumped by the LinkUp 8. The LinkUp 8 is of very high quality components and excellent build quality. They make a very significant difference in my system; I've tried them individually at all places in my system, and as they were added you could hear the SQ improve with significantly reduced noise floor, improved dynamics, and increased frequency response top to bottom. At their price point, they are a very good option and a good place to start.

I know you mentioned elsewhere that you purchased the Muon Pro system and that Network Acoustics will have a Switch out in June. I've been very tempted to go that route as the Muon Pro is passive (doesn't need a power supply) and I know @grannyring uses this setup. He also has the discontinued NA Rubicon switch and loves the combo. I will be waiting to see what Network Acoustics releases; not sure if it will have the name Rubicon or otherwise. Seems lots of people like the products they manufacture. I am also curious to see what Uptone Audio releases around June as well, having been using their EtherRegen for years.

BTW, thanks for the comments on the LDMS server, much appreciated.

How important are WAN cables in a network?  Any recommendations?  

@willgolf

No direct experience with Muon Streaming cable yet but I used to own ENO LAN cable in my earlier setup. @grannyring, someone whom I trust and respect; posted his impression about Muon LAN here recently. And Muon Pro LAN comes with 30 days, no questions asked return policy. A system like yours would greatly benefit from an ultra high resolution LAN cable. As far as LinkUp LAN, the only thing cheap about this cable is its price. The build quality is outstanding and the sound is balanced, open and detailed. I couldn’t have picked a better cable for a 15M length from my Infinity 1GB speed modem/router to my Telegartner M12 Switch Gold. Again, use Amazon generous return policy to test drive the LinkUp LAN cable in your system.

@lalitk --thx.  Did you buy the Muon streaming cable also?  I assume that goes from Server to DAC. I am curious as to why you just bought the cheap $36 Linkup cable from the wall to the Filter as opposed to a better cable?  

@willgolf

I would go with Option 2 - EdisCreations Silent Switch OCXO Extreme version switch and Fiber Box II before your LDMS server. Use a generic LAN cable like LinkUp from Amazon between your wall plate to Fiber Box and then to your switch. I subscribe to everything matters philosophy but in this case the last LAN cable between switch and LDMS matters the most, So check out Network Acoustics Muon Pro LAN cable. If you decided to get both Ediscreation switch and Fiber Box II, I would experiment with placement; wall to switch then fiber box to LDMS or wall to fiber box then switch to LDMS. Here are the links to Ethernet cables,

 

 

 

 

@sns or anyone else

HELP.  I am functionally blind and reading long threads is extremely hard for me.  I am also not a computer / digital expert.  This is a great thread and one that is really timely for me.  So, there are too many suggestions and I am unable to try them all out.  I am super happy with my sound and wonder what people mean by noise in the system ( sorry).  What in particular is the noise that you hear when listening to music?  

I am intrigued by this discussion and would like your help.  I built my house three years ago.  I have a dedicated 20 amp line into my two-channel room and separate theater room.  I use a Inakustic 3500 power conditioner at the end of the chain.  I have a network closet that is next to my theater room but 50 feet away from my 2-channel area.  The whole house network includes an Araknis 310 Router and 210 Switch tied to a Netgear C1000 modem and an Audioquest 1200 power conditioner.  I ran fiber and cat 6 from the Araknis to my two-channel area.  

My audio components are Lucas Audio LDMS Music server (imo just below Taiko) and a Lampi Horizon DAC.  The rest is not important to this discussion.  I have been using Fiber for my LDMS.  However, I am getting an upgraded LDMS and Lucas has suggested I go back to Cat 6 Ethernet.  

Even though I do not know what noise I am supposed to hear, I am intrigued by wanting to improve my audio experience.  I have been doing some research and this is what has been recommended to me.

Option 1

TeddyPardo LPS 12V / 2amp that would connect to my Netgear modem.  I was surprised when that was recommended.  I thought it would be connected to the Araknis Router and Switch.  Apparently the Araknis is already a good home network solution, 

Paul Pang Quad Switch.  This would be attached to the source wall Cat 6 cable.  I would then need to identify an Ethernet cable to go from the Paul Pang Quad to the LDMS.  

Option 2

EdisCreations -  Hong Kong

12V 6amp EdisCreation LPS Extreme

Silent Switch OCXO Extreme version

And then if I really want the best, I would add their Fiber Box which goes before the Silent Switch.  They are also recommending their silver LAN ethernet cable.  

Am I missing anything?  Is there anything else I should be looking at or considering?  No one to my knowledge has mentioned these LPS or switches in this thread so if possible you may want to check out their websites.  

I really would appreciate your feedback and if you want to private email to not clutter this thread please do.  

P.S. what got me started on this topic as I am having major buffering and freezing issues with my TVs and even in my theater room.  .  Everything is streamed through Roku.  I can not figure out why I have to always reboot the system.  The Cable company said their system is fine and the Araknis is totally up to date.  I have no issues with music buffering.  

Thank you 

Blind Will aka Willgolf from Arizona

 

 

 

 

 

@debjit_g To clarify, what you said is what I meant to say.

Vertere HB ethernet reduces noise and is analog sounding.

Very transparent speaker cables will reveal any noise in your system or streaming setup.

I personally find there are many places where noise can be injected in a streaming setup.

@macdude how can a ethernet cable be analog sounding and reveal any noise in the streaming setup at the same time ? Analog sounding cables tend to reduce noise in the system, whereas a transparent sounding cables tend to reveal weakness in the system.

 

@lalitk I’ve tried many ethernet cables. Pink Faun, Audience Hidden Treasure, Shunyata Alpha, Entreq, Network Acoustics Muon, and others.

Vertere HB is a very analog sounding ethernet cable and is in a league of its own. It has less harshness/abrasiveness than other ethernet cables.

If you have transparent speaker cables, they will reveal any noise in your streaming setup. There is where I find Vertere HB to be superior to other ethernet cables.

So to answer your question, this cable allows you to relax and your shoulders to sag because of things you don't hear - mainly noise.

I want to share a network upgrade in sound quality that has me smiling. I have used the Network Acoustics streaming cables and filters since that were offered several years ago. Network Acoustics is really doing some great things for streaming audio sound quality. I just upgraded to their newer Muon Pro streaming cables and filter. I was not sure the sound quality improvement over the standard Muon would be worth it for me. I learned it is and here are some improvements I hear in my music streaming.

My wife and I immediately heard the music fill in much more between the speakers. I did not expect that, but it was easily heard. We also enjoyed even greater realism of voice and instrument. Voices were now connected with bodies increasing the realism of vocals wonderfully. More “stuff” was removed from the signal helping us hear further into recordings. Smearing or blurring of instruments seemed to vanish as we could hear separate instrumental lines previously masked or even hidden. Yes, resolution was improved nicely, but the tonality remained natural and not presented as hyper detailed. Nice!

I own the Innuos Zenith 3 and found this upgrade impacted sonics more than the PhoenixUSB Reclocker and Ideon 3R Master Time Black Star units I had and sold. I placed the Muon Pro filter before my Network Acoustics Rubicon switch finding this position ideal in my system. I had always placed the NA filters after the switch in the past, but this time before the switch was preferred a tad.

 

“It does things no other ethernet cable I’ve tried can do.”
@macdude

Would you please elaborate on things you’ve heard through Vertere HB? What other ethernet cables you’ve tried in your system?

@macdude My analog are all Cardas Clear Beyond.

I'm getting a Vertere Pulse HB LAN cable very soon.

@thieliste Vertere HB is out of this world if you can get it to mesh with your analog cables. 

It does things no other ethernet cable I’ve tried can do.

@upshift  Trust the ears. Listening comprehension is a life-time journey. Eventually all manufacturers will do it for us. Don't hold your breath.

@singingg 

You're research has been extremely helpful!

Is there a way to determine directionality with ethernet cables other than trial and error listening tests?

Thanks,

JD

 

@pokey77  I never tried the GF as I was just starting out and wasn't ready to spend big bucks. Make sure to upgrade ONT and router PS!

@tonywinga thanks for your sharing the results of your tests. Very helpful!

@singingg 

Fantastic summation of your 4-year journey. I've got to read this again for sure.

You mentioned the Gigafoil. I'm not understanding if you tried it and if you did, is it still in the system or did you find that it was better without it?

I'm sure I'll have more questions once I reread this post and hope to continue optimizing my Network as well.

BTW, I also found that reversing the direction of the Network cable on my ATT ONT to Router connection brought about a very nice improvement; it was quite clear it needed to be swapped. I too hear the stage open up, really just hear much more resolution with decreased noise floor and resulting greater dynamics and ease. I used Supra Cat8+ but found I have a spare LinkUp 8 that I can try. Will leave the 8+ in for now as I'm really enjoying just how good it all sounds now.

I recently bought 3 Pangea SE Ethernet cables to see how they would compare to the basic $8 CAT7 Ethernet cables that I had running from my Modem-Router-(FMC1-Optical Cable-FMC2)-LHY Network switch.  From the network switch to my music server I already have an AQ Cinnamon Ethernet cable and so I left it alone.

I ordered the 3 Pangea SE Ethernet cables at the same time but they arrived one at a time over a 10 day period.  The newest cable now has about a week of run in time so I am ready to make a conclusion.  You can see my system on my system page.  It is a very resolving system and my hearing is still very good.

After using all Pangea SE Ethernet cables (with the exception of the AQ cable to the music server) in my system for a week I find that they make a contribution to the sound by improving the clarity and resolution just a bit.  I detect no difference in tonal balance- once the Pangea cables were broken in, as compared to the basic $8 cables.  When I put one $8 Ethernet cable back in the system, I noticed the loss of clarity right away.  I played a few different songs and I am confident I would be able to identify the Pangea SE ethernet cable.  I know, this seems crazy what an Ethernet cable can do to the sound.  A couple of years ago I would never have believed it myself.

I found that the Pangea Ethernet cables sounded harsh- the highs were not good when first installed new into the system.  Direction didn't matter as they sounded harsh either way.  But after about 36 hours of run in the cables sounded good and I found correct orientation of the cable easily discernible to hear.  Beyond that 36 hours of run in time I could hear no additional changes in the sound of the cables.

Overall I feel the cables are a good purchase.  They are about 6X the cost of basic CAT 7 Ethernet cables but are a good value if they can make a difference in your system.

Has anyone got any advice out there based on my system setup above ?

Sorry I jumped to the end here without reading everything - how can I improve (tidy) up my networking to improve sound quality in this context:

Now I have done ’some’ tidying up but where further do I go - with the caveat that I must use Wi-Fi but fortunately Wi-Fi is an OK connection for an Auralic G1 streamer?

So far this is my ’networking’ setup:

ISP router >> ASUS RT-AC86U router configured as an AP >> wireless to the Auralic G1.

Note I have turned off all wireless activity in the ISP router (something mentioned here to reduce noise) - so the ASUS is the wireless work-horse.

The ASUS RT-AC86U was a recommended router on Auralics website.

I have access to Cisco and Meraki equipment plus SFPs from work - but would it be necessary in the above config (it might be to clear and reclock the signal further downstream I don’t know).

Comments very welcome and of course relevant to this post.

@singingg 

Well then, I guess we both stumbled onto the directionality thing by sheer chance. I'm glad I read this thread.

System update. It is sounding sublime - and now the audiophile terms. The noise floor has dropped considerably and so you can really hear things not just more clearly, but more fully. There is better separation of the instruments and the background. With the reduced noise, there are significantly greater dynamics and a more complete and holographic sound. I was fairly sure that changing the cable that connects the AT&T ONT to the router would bring a decent change, but wow, it is a very substantial change indeed, and I'm loving it. I'm kind of wary about any more changes for a while as I've been through some weeks now with subpar sound quality. I'm so glad to be at this point now and when I think of my system, it makes me happy rather than stressed because it is not sounding its best.

@pokey77 Cool. The directionality thing is just something I stumbled onto by sheer chance. Just one reversed cable and your whole network is off. I hope others are testing their cables.

The Supra 8 just settled into my system and immediately sounded like a million bucks. I have sent the Linkup back for a refund. I am done with cabling!

I will probably cave in and order the iFi elite PS this week. It is the absolute last thing to do in my system. I will report back and let everyone know how it sounds.

@singingg 

So after reading your comments on Network cable and the ATT Router/ONT cable, I decided to use a spare Supra Cat8+ between the ONT and Router. Once the 8+ was in, the sound was always, but only, a little better than the stock ATT-supplied Network cable. After a few weeks, it didn't seem like it was doing all it should, or to say I didn't really like the sound. So, I reversed the direction of the 8+, and it became more natural and over the course of a week everything sounded as it should be - the sound opened up and the resolution was much greater being extended more on both the bottom and the top, a more realistic presentation. So I have duplicated your experience in the same ATT fiber network location and I'm glad you wrote about it. I've discovered I have a LinkUp 8 cable I can try in that position, but will wait until I'm needing a change, for now I just want to listen to music.

BTW, I found that LinkUp 8 needs a couple of weeks to burn in and settle. Even the Supra Cat8+ I wrote about above took a week to fully settle in once placed in the correct direction, and it already had thousands of hours on it (but had been in a box of cables for a year or two). So you may want to consider trying it again for an extended period. Anyway, enjoy and thanks!

I decided to try some upgraded Ethernet cables after reading some of the posts here.  I ordered 3 Pangea SE Ethernet cables to replace my $8 Ethernet cables that go from modem to router, then router to FMC 1 and from FMC 2 to my LHY SW-8 network switch.  I already have a higher level AQ Ethernet cable from the network switch to my music server and decided to leave it in place.  The Pangea SE cables are about 5X the cost of basic cables and are constructed with silver plated Cardas wire.  Why not?  I already have added the fiber optics, upgraded SFPs in the FMCs and bought the audiophile network switch.  So far, I have received just one of the three cables.  One cable came Monday but the other two will not arrive until tomorrow.  So I placed the first cable between the 2nd FMC and the network switch on Monday.

I had a chance at a first listen last night with the first Pangea SE Ethernet cable in place.  So it had about 36 hours of run in time.  First impression was not good.  The music was annoyingly bright.  I thought maybe it is the silver plated wire, perhaps? Not enough run in time?  Then I thought to reverse the cable.  BAM!  The annoying brightness was gone.  My system now sounds right again.  I listened and enjoyed several songs.  I have no conclusion yet if this cable beats the $8 basic Ethernet cable.  I will reserve that judgement until the entire chain consists of the Pangea SE cables.  But I can definitely say that these cables are directional.  

Uhmm.

CAT 8 ethernet cables are backwards compatible with older versions of CAT. Doesn't mean more bandwidth...that is dependent upon your ISP and network settings. Better shielding and never any drop outs unless disconnected from a port. Up to 40 GB/ps bandwidth so way over specced for audio...but why not?!  

@mastering92 @wsrrsw

The only thing I want is it to please myself with musical sound.

The only thing I know is what I heard. I recommend that all do their own due diligence as to what pleases them and works best in their system.

All the listening tests were done alone.

@singingg

I may be wrong and way off base but somewhere I remember (or not) cat 6 is a better choice than cat 8?

Are you alone listening or are others sitting in?