Need to adjust the speed every time I turn on turntable

Update for interested parties.  The issue was multiple items  1.  Replaced the caps on the power board.  2.  Issues with the variable resistors to set the speed.  I may have pushed them down as I adjusted the speed frequently.  3.  Belt.  The standard Oracle belt did not work well with the Origin Live motor.  There a Oracle belts from Origin Live.  Things are looking brighter. 

Well, that link doesn't seem to work, just type in FNET and look for FNET Server Web Display. US Frequency Gradient Map on the top bar will show you the display in real time.

BillWojo

Found an interesting site that shows the entire North American grid in real time and the deviations as they occur. The bar graph above the map goes from 59.940 to 60.060 Hz and is color coded to the map. It changes more rapidly that I thought it could but not enough to cause us concern.

Type in FNET/Grideye
BillWojo

Agree, teo. We also tend to draw false relationships between a list of causes and a list of effects with no real data to support a connection of one to the other. But it makes us feel good to have a pat explanation in hand.

Humans tend to confuse experience with reality. The human mind is designed for this as a modus operandi. A simple statement about a complex scenario, it is....

Hence the grating, constant, and unstoppable nature of forum arguments.

Only with Belt Drive turntables! 

If you are often fiddling with the speed adjuster, you may have created a "flat spot" in the 10 turn pot. Go to USAM, look for dealers on the right side and contact hyendaudio. He can help you with advice and parts. I replaced the pot and my Delphi II is dead stable now.

Frequency coming from your wall outlet is 60 Hz and is held very steady.
Remember that the generating station is using HUGE generators, HUGE! the rotating rotors weigh many tons and through the grid are locked into generators from other power plants, slowing down a generator would cause havoc on the grid and the other generators would try and pull it back into sync.

Ever see a generator being brought up to speed? It must be precisely matched to the speed of other generators on the grid and MUST be exactly in phase or a disaster could easily happen. Could wipe out the generator and part of the grid.
Every cycle is counted and usually around midnight the generators are slowed or sped up if a few Hz needed to be added or subtracted.

Remember the old clocks on the wall? They never lost time, they relied on a steady 60Hz feeding the motor and simple gearing to work.

Early TT used that steady 60Hz to maintain a precise speed like the clock. Of course slippage from the driving elements can not be accounted for but the motor always ran at a proper speed.

BillWojo

Thank you!

As I stated before, replace the controller.  The motor is likely ok.

15 years old and only 200 hours.... the filter caps in the power supply could easily be defective as a result (they last longer when charged). It may be that the regulators are unable to regulate the DC voltage as a result.

I have been in contact with Origin Live this week.  When they saw the pictures from my setup they said motor and transformer is 15 years old.  Must buy new both control board and transformer.  When I said - has only been used 200 hours.  Do you provide any discount for existing customer they said - read our FAQ.  It must be something else.Any thoughts????

How old is the belt?
What you describe sounds like a belt issue

A dirty belt/belt tension is the number one cause of this in my experience, also check to make sure pulley isnt slipping on motor shaft and be sure to clean pulley grooves

Bruce 

Just wanted to point out that many of the posts seem to confuse long term speed stability with instantaneous speed stability.  A turntable may measure out perfectly for speed over longer time intervals yet still create momentary episodes of pitch instability due to short interval speed errors.  There's a difference.

A long time ago when I began to notice speed fluctuations on my VPI TT I cured it with a clean-out and lubrication of the bearing and a lubrication of the motor.  So that might be an issue,

But phoenixengr, who apparently now licenses his inventions to SOTA, solved the problem forever initially for me and other VPI owners with his Falcon/Eagle/Roadrunner.  Now sold together with a advanced design motor by SOTA.  If they make it in a way that is compatible with your TT you might look into it.  It's clearly the way to go for many reasons including better SQ, and it's quite low-cost for what you get.. 

phoenixengr

Thank you for that insight around speed fluctuations, phoenixengr! 

In the later 90's, I had a full blown SOTA Star Sapphire with vacuum hold-down / electronic flywheel (line conditioner) - paired with a Fidelity Research fx64 arm with mid-priced Grados.  The speed would hold only through a 3-4 hour listening session no matter what I tried, including swapping out for a new motor with an engineer friend.   In the end, I simply lived with the issue.  Two decades later, it's still comforting to know that something can be done. 

During that experience, my rig was situated on a jouncy upstairs room, presenting a real challenge in isolating the turntable from footfalls, etc.  I tried bladders, masonry (never have had any luck with that,) tiptoes, sorbothane, etc...but, the "cure" in that application was a sandbox with super dry play-sand from hardware store and a carefully leveled maple plinth atop the sand under the SOTA.  Maybe this may help others. 

Happy listening and More Peace, Pinthrift   

@lewm I see now that what I wrote was completely ambiguous!

If Edison had won the point, we wouldn’t need rectification in our audio equipment, but on the other hand the DC voltages available for B+ would in many cases need boosting.

We’d be in a different world if Edison had prevailed, for sure. For one thing, we’d probably be paying a whole lot more for electricity. I think the main reason AC prevailed is because of distribution efficiencies.

Oddly, solar electricity is DC. Edison would have liked that.

Sorry for a bit of nothing, but you wrote, "AC is not safer than DC - that was Edison’s argument...."  I interpreted that to mean that Edison argued that AC was safer than DC, which we both know was not the case.  I had a feeling you merely made an error in syntax, but I just wanted to get it straight. Now I see how you meant it.
Just think: If Edison had won the point, we wouldn't need rectification in our audio equipment, but on the other hand the DC voltages available for B+ would in many cases need boosting. Also, it would have been difficult to assure that everyone got the same DCV at home.

lewm

Cleeds, As I recall, from reading those very same history books, Edison promoted DC electrical transmission

Exactly. That’s what I wrote. Edison promoted the electric chair to warn about the dangers of AC. All of Edison's early electrification work was DC, such as in NYC, where he ran some of the wires himself.

Cleeds, As I recall, from reading those very same history books, Edison promoted DC electrical transmission. It was Westinghouse and Tesla, who had left Edison, who promoted AC. Edison infamously electrocuted an elephant in order to demonstrate that AC was unsafe.

Okay here's another thread where obviously mijostyn and clearthink want to talk about things other than audio, so I'll exit here. I guess these guys are really amused with themselves.

mijostyn "One fart from cleeds and the whole electrical grid will collapse."

Mijostyn I have mostly thought of cleeds as an oozing infected boil but you're observations about his incessant masturbation and farting raise the question of which is worse hear is it the foul result, consequence, and effect of his farting or is it cleeds spewing of jizz after massaging his little flesh stick that is worse?    

mijostyn

AC is the preferred way of transmitting electricity to customers because it is way safer, more efficient and lower maintenance than DC.

Oh no, AC is not safer than DC - that was Edison’s argument when he was battling it out over power distribution. That’s why Edison promoted the electric chair. It’s all in the history books.

The grid is constantly adjusted to within 0.5 Hz of 60 Hz. It tries to vary with load. Higher loads tend to slow it down. The number of cycles per day is held to a constant (so clocks will stay on time). Any spurious signals contained on the line would not effect this frequency or the operation of any AC motor. AC is the preferred way of transmitting  electricity to customers because it is way safer, more efficient and lower maintenance than DC. Westinghouse 1, Edison 0.  The grid is protected from local occurrences by transformers, those cans hung up on the poles that reduce the voltage from kilo volts down to 120 per leg. Transmitted power has three legs at 120 degrees. Industrial zones get all three legs and have "three phase power." Residential areas get only two legs which sucks if you like big woodworking machines. You have to get a phase converter and manufacture the third leg. I digress. One fart from cleeds and the whole electrical grid will collapse.  

sleepwalker65

AC frequency, which before accounting for noise from other sources can vary by up to +/-2Hz ...

Please explain how noise affects AC frequency and how you arrived at this spec.

Noise that breaks the synchronization can increase this to 10% depending on the power factor of the source.

If that were true, the entire connected electric grid would collapse. The function of the AC frequency is to allow multiple electric sources to be connected and work simultaneously on the same grid.

AC synchronous motors rely on stability of AC frequency, which before accounting for noise from other sources can vary by up to +/-2Hz, which is an error range of 6.7%. Noise that breaks the synchronization can increase this to 10% depending on the power factor of the source. Bottom line is to use a line frequency conditioning device for equipment that has AC synchronous motors. This is why quartz oscillator disciplined phase locked loop controlled DC motors maintain speed with much greater precision and reliability. 

@mijostyn, I agree 100% with you, and that is what I dumped my origin live modified LP12.  

Testpilot, well then I guess origin live has some work to do. A turntable should be a set it and forget it device. Drifting motors and controllers is not acceptable in this day and age. Neither my SOTA or SME vary at all, cold, warm, upside down or sideways. The SOTA I check maybe once a year and it might drift a little. The SME not at all.  

I had to replace the controller on my Origin Live table when the 45RPM setting became unstable.  The speed was all over the map from extremely slow to chipmunk fast.

@mijostyn, speed drift is quite common with origin live dc motor.  See the faq https://www.originlive.com/support/hi-fi-problems-troubleshooting/dc-turntable-motor-problems/

I had stopped listening to albums because the speed fluctuations drove me nuts.  It was very audible.

I finally bit the bullet and sent it back to Sota for a new motor, board, speed control and maglev bearing.  The sound is now amazing.  I can clearly see that it runs exactly at 33.3 and it sounds just as good.

My advice, stop playing games with your table.  Either fix it or replace it.  DC motors get old.

AC motors are locked to the drive frequency, but the wall power frequency does vary a small amount over short periods.  This will manifest itself as a wavering on single notes, but will not show up as speed drift over longer periods of time.  Long term speed drift is caused by changes in the belt and bearing lubrication over time and changes in stylus drag from the beginning of a record to the end.

The speed of DC motors is more difficult to control than AC synch motors.  Even with tight DC regulation of the voltage, the motor speed will be affected by torque load and temp.  Some of the OL motor controllers compensate for speed changes with load variation (stylus drag), but without temp compensation, the speed of the motor will still wander.
A synthesized PSU will lock the speed of an AC synch motor to a quartz reference, but as I posted above, this does not guarantee constant PLATTER speed.  Even with perfect motor speed control, the platter speed will drift over time.

I run mine through a PS Audio Power generator.  (P1000) Same Voltage. frequency every time. 
Also every time I put a tiny screwdriver in the adjustment screw the speed goes crazy.  I adjust and it goes back to normal again, and I can determine if it is improved.  Ground issue???

glennewdick

one thing to consider is your power going to your house changes a few volts all the time that alone will throw off a turntable with out compensation.

No, it won't. Turntables don't rely on AC voltage for speed regulation. The ones that use AC motors are synchronous to the line frequency, which is subject to only very tiny deviation by the very nature of AC distribution systems. Those that use DC motors employ regulation in the DC power supply.

one thing to consider is your power going to your house changes a few volts all the time that alone will throw off a turntable with out compensation.  

My place fluctuates up to 10volts depending on the time of day and temperatures. 

There is of course the well-proven quartz oscillator based PLL method used in better direct drive turntables. 

This is a common problem with BD tables. It is caused by a combination of belt slippage (which can be cured with proper tension) and belt creep which cannot be cured, but can be compensated for with feedback. No matter how accurate the motor speed, without feedback the platter speed will vary over time due to a number of variables that cannot be controlled.

SOTA now sells a PSU and tach with feedback that will keep the platter on speed regardless of variables such as belt diameter and durometer, stylus drag, bearing oil viscosity, temperature, belt creep etc.
https://sotaturntables.com/product-category/eclipse-series/

I do not think so testpilot. He is setting the motor speed when it is cold. It should be the same next time he checks it cold. dcaudio, next time you start up check the speed but do not change it. Get an idea of how many dots drift by a fixed point in 10 seconds. Lets say it drifts 5 dots in 10 seconds. Check the speed again when it has warmed up for 30 minutes. How many dots does it drift now. Let us know what happens!!

The Origin Live’s motor controller’s DC output drifts when cold and then stabilize once it warms up. 

With my VPI Classic 3 SE Sig/w 3 belts/ADS.... there's a constant need for adjustment between listening sessions.