Last Lemming,
where are w/ regards to powering those Thiel speakers.
They will require both high current & high power from the amp of your choosing. |
Great tastes, Miles is amazing and it's nice many recordings are available. Take a listen to "In a silent way" on mofi wax, I've yet to own but love the recording. Very relaxing! Pink Floyd division bell sends chills when I listen to it, Possibly perfect sounds. I'm flirting with picking up a 2.2 smartsub if i can find in walnut to match my mains. Let me ask... Do you ever need to go higher than 10 on the BAT volume control paired with the Halo? |
I listen to all sorts really, but if I had to try and narrow it down, I like Miles Davis (who doesn't right?), Pink Floyd, Harry Connick Jr., Norah Jones, Classical, Johnny Cash, Queen, Led Zepplin . . . well all sorts. I've just recently added a REL R-328 subwoofer that has really filled out the bottom end nicely and added a certain "body" to the music that is very, very nice as well. |
congrats on a happy amp pairing it looks like you got a good one. Happy you are giving the CS2.4 a chance, I picked mine up in 2005 and have never desired anything but. What music are you listening to? |
Well this a21 sure is a sweet thing! I haven't heard umpteen thousand dollar amps on my system to compare, so maybe ignorance is bliss but by my ears it doesn't take any wrong steps that I can hear. At least no major blunders. I've recently switched out my power cords of my power conditioner and the A21 to Pangea AC9se's and that gave the sound more body and more defined sound stage.
I am really starting to like the sound I'm hearing!! |
Ok let's start over . . .
Got the Parasound Halo A21 up and running. Not exactly sure what the burn in time will be, but stay tuned! out if the box it's very promising, but I've been down that road before as well. |
No. It's a 5 channel beast made by a now defunct company which is still highly respected. I use a Signature EAD Prepro for music and HT which was modded for me by Noble electronics. Very nice sounding stuff at a good price. Haven't cranked up the Boulder yet to compare the two, but it should be interesting. I also notice that Bryston has been pairing with Thiel at CES and I considered a Bryston integrated for the 2.4's before I found the Boulder on A'gon.. |
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I am driving my 2.4's with an EAD pm 2000 & have for 4-5 years. I'm pleased with this little amp which goes 750 wpc into 5 ch. Am going to dedicated system with a BoulderAES 500. Looking forward to how this.20 yr old unit will sound! |
How about an older Rowland? |
I don't doubt that I might be trying to push a rope, and what I require is a powerful amp that can provide the current needed, but I also one that will synergies well and not emphasize the the forward nature of these speakers. Other than. Buying Krell what would you suggest would work in the $3k to $4k realm? |
Yeah my problem is they are in the living room and can't really do the "face each other" idea |
Last_lemming,
In my first post I mentioned wiring the speakers out of phase. If you just swap the +/- on ONE of the speakers and face the speakers at each other in close proximity, most of the sound will cancel (especially with mono material or white/pink noise). You can then play them much louder without disturbing neighbors, etc. Of course you can't enjoy them set up like this but they should break in much faster. Forgive me if you know all of this already or don't have the ability to properly place them for this.
Dick |
I don't think so.
I was documenting my impressions at a local forum, almost on a daily basis.
My room then had a bad 50Hz problem so a number of R&B songs were unbearable to me. So that's what I did. I put in a Squeezbox to stream my "problematic" tracks every day.
I even used to "remote control" my home PC to dial up the volume during the day and dial it down before I got home (no one was home but the missus never let me leave the house with the volume as loud as I liked haha).
Anyway, I was very encouraged to read of a similar experience from another Thiel owner in avs forums and his comments struck a chord with me. |
Thiels are too good for the other equipment you are considering. These speakers sound excellent with excellent ancillary equipment...otherwise, you are spinning your wheels. |
Yeah I'm hoping your right. I'm probably approaching 250. I've got about 100 hours of decent loudness playing through them and another 125+ just letting them play at night, though not very loud. So I've got a bit to go
Not doubting your word on them loosening up, but do you think some of that loosening up was you just getting use to them? |
If you don't have 300 hours at least on the 2.4s, the 2.4s sound very horrible. I remember the agony I went through with the first few months of ownership.
Then one day, the tardiness of the bass went and the highs lost their initial harshness. |
Ok. Might be sending the ciaudio's back. There are some really good things to like about them but something isn't quite geling here with the Thiels. Maybe I should just sell the damn Thiels! I dunno getting real disappointed trying to make these speakers work. Anyway I'm going to be auditioning the Parasound Halo 21 in hopes to find some synergy. Not sure if it will be there. It seems the speakers need the bass and mid bass to open up to balance out the highs. The D200's went a long way in doing this but carried an edge to the highs I found a bit tiring. I did look at McCormacks like some of you suggested, from Spearitsound.com but I don't think they have a 30 day return policy.
Anybody have any thoughts on the Parasound, I'm not sure it's going to do me any favors in the highs either, or at least bring out the low, but it gets relally good reviews. |
Ive lived with the ciaudio d200 mkii's for about 2 weeks now and probably have about 100+ hours on the units. I've been running them in balanced configuration. So far these amps seem pretty good. Great bass control and plenty of power to drive the Thiels. The sound is very open and full with good imaging. He highs are good with a slight emphasis on acoustical guitar plucking and cymbols with voices being slightly recessed, but not on all albums which leaves me to believe its more the recording than the amps. Not sure yet. In all the amps seem quite neutral. |
No offense taken. I try to read up on a subject before I ask a question, but my understanding of electrical design is limited to construction and architecture and reading about electrical component design gets me quite lost in tryin to truly understand it sometimes. Home electronics fascinates me, though my understanding is quite superficial. It's good to hear from people who do understand it and can explain it to common folk like me. |
04-17-12: Mapman
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Bombay, my point was that technically no amplifier in practice (as opposed to theory) is perfect, so there is always some information "loss" or perhaps transformation (not completely reversible) would be a better term.
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Agree. yes, there's always a transformation of information when we switch mediums: sound pressure to electrical & back again. I see, that's where you were coming from. I agree. 04-17-12: Last_lemming
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I'll make sure that in my future attempts to gain more knowlege on the subject that my lameness does not attempt rear its ugly head if at all possible ;)
Sorry, I should have been less sarcastic. No offence meant to you (or anyone else) & I hope that no offence was taken. Don't worry too much about it & don't let that disuade you from asking your questions. Well, reading up before is always a good idea no matter how much one knows but these forums are meant for learning. I've been laughed at many times in these forums & continue to be. I've also asked newbie questions & written material that I regretted later. All part of the learning.... Glad that you found the post informative. |
Well Im glad my ignorance has amused you today!
I certainly don't claim to be an expert at audio design or technology, which you obviously know more about than I do. Thank you for your post, it was very informative. I'll make sure that in my future attempts to gain more knowlege on the subject that my lameness does not attempt rear its ugly head if at all possible ;) |
"So, if the class-D amp is designed correctly, information-wise you should not be losing any information."
Bombay, my point was that technically no amplifier in practice (as opposed to theory) is perfect, so there is always some information "loss" or perhaps transformation (not completely reversible) would be a better term.
I would agree though that whatever you choose to call this, its no more of a concern with a well designed Class D amplifier than it is with any other amplifier type, so practically no reason for concern (at least in theory).
In the end you gotta trust your ears. Theory and its practical realization in design and construction are two different things. |
04-17-12: Last_lemming
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What im ultimately interested in when it comes to how "D" amps work is if there is a loss of information like some say when comparing Vinyl and CD players. The Class D amps work a the principle of an on/off nature similar to how cd players work with 0's and 1's. My understanding is that class D amps use PWM (I think I have the acronym right) thus it would seem their sound is "interpreted" if you will just like CD's have to "interpret" between the bits. Is my thinking right on this or am I off base? Im I losing audio information in a digital amp? My understanding of the CI D200's is that the switching is analog, but the on/off concept still remains.
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04-17-12: Mapman
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I'd say it is accurate to say that the sound of any amp (Class D or otherwise) is "interpreted". The mechanisms used by different types of amps vary however.
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Since no amplifier is perfect, I would say yes, however, again same true of ANY amp design.
Class D amp technology is relatively new and innovative.
ROTFLMAO!!! Last_lemming, Mapman thanks much for providing the laughs today at lunch time...... This is a classic case of the bling leading the lame.... Yes, class-D amplifiers do use a principle called Pulse Width Modulation or PWM. Class-D amplifiers are, what one would classify, discrete-time systems. They are essentially a mix of both analog & digital hence "discrete-time" as opposed to being purely digital wherein the signal/data would be digital from start(input) to end(output). An every day example that touches our lives would be a digital signal processor in our smart-phones - digital data in, digital data out, then, a D/A conversion & we get brightness modulated on the LCD screen/phone call translated to voice/keypad push converted to user-asked-for action, etc. The technology for class-D audio power amplifiers is new to the field of audio but it is a very old technology overall. Class-D amplifiers are basically modified switch-mode power supplies (SMPSs) that are appropriately modified to modulate a music signal (rather than track a reference voltage). As many of you already know, you home desktop computer & your laptops extensively use SMPS. That big metal perforated box into which the power cable connects on your home desktop computer is a large SMPS box. SMPS power supplies have been in existence since the late 1960s & early 1970s. Back then SMPSs had very low bandwidth in the 100s of KHz. Recently, with the advancement of technology, SMPSs can have upto 6MHz of bandwidth. And, they do if you look at National Semicondutor's, Maxim's, Analog Devices' catalogs. SMPSs are now extensively used in smartphones today - there must be atleast 6 SMPSs in a Apple iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy S2, etc. So, the technology is old but the advancement lies in making the noise performance very, very good for audio applications because the human ear is very sensitive to noise in the presence region (1KHz-5KHz). In a Class-D power amplifier the music signal is an input voltage reference (moving reference, of course) & there is an analog filter that averages this input signal. This average is compared against an internally generated ramp signal. When the ramp signal is above the average signal, one output power transistor is on while the other is off. When the ramp signal is lower than the average signal the other power transistor is on & the 1st power transistor is off. So, now you can see that the time that the on transistor is on varies each time - it depends on how long the ramp signal is above the average signal. This is where you get the pulse width modulation (PWM). The 'pulse' being how long the transistor is on. Needless to say one power transistor is P-type supplying current into the load & the other power transistor is N-type pulling/sinking current from the load. After the output of the power transistors there is an analog filter to cut down the spurs that are created by switching transistors. If these spurs were not cut down they would create a very noisy output & totally destroy your listening pleasure. The other equally important reason for filtering is that the on/off pulses of the power transistors do not resemble in any way shape or form the analog music signal. If you filter/average these pulses then the averaged signal does accurately represent the input music signal. So, you can see where the "digital" nature of the class-D amplifier comes in - power transistor either fully on or fully off. If you look at power transistor classification, this action is categorized as class-D (we all are very familiar with class-A & class-AB power amplifiers which are prolific in the audio market). You can also see where the analog nature of the class-D amplifier comes in - the analog filter averaging the music signal. The 2 systems are meshed together as a whole hence class-D amplifiers are not fully digital & they are not fully analog. They are discrete-time meaning that at specific time spots a certain action takes place (one power transistor turns on & the other turns off). But if you look at time on a continuous basis you see that they analog filter has a continuous-time analog output voltage. So, this system is analog & digital all at the same time. So, the analog filtering post power transistors is an interpolation & there is some loss of signal as the filter smooths out the on/off pulses but the key here is that if the on/off pulses are, say, 10X faster than the highest frequency audio signal (20KHz) then, music signal is oversampled high enough that there is no loss of information (per the Nyquist criteria) & you have sufficient number of data points to reconstruct the analog music signal (per Shannon's theorem). So, if the class-D amp is designed correctly, information-wise you should not be losing any information. And, BTW, neither do CD players lose any information! Hope that this helps.... |
"My understanding is that class D amps use PWM (I think I have the acronym right) thus it would seem their sound is "interpreted" if you will just like CD's have to "interpret" between the bits. Is my thinking right on this or am I off base? "
I believe you are correct that Class D amps use PWM (Pulse WIdth Modulation).
I'd say it is accurate to say that the sound of any amp (Class D or otherwise) is "interpreted". The mechanisms used by different types of amps vary however.
"I'm I losing audio information in a digital amp?"
Since no amplifier is perfect, I would say yes, however, again same true of ANY amp design.
Class D amp technology is relatively new and innovative. From what I hear I would say Class D amps are competitive soundwise with other good amps out there these days, perhaps even with some at much higher price points. Like most things, there is no definitive "best". It all depends..... In the end, you just gotta do your homework and trust your own ears. |
Well, I only have a couple hours of listening time on the amps right ouf the box. But the bass is better. What im ultimately interested in when it comes to how "D" amps work is if there is a loss of information like some say when comparing Vinyl and CD players. The Class D amps work a the principle of an on/off nature similar to how cd players work with 0's and 1's. My understanding is that class D amps use PWM (I think I have the acronym right) thus it would seem their sound is "interpreted" if you will just like CD's have to "interpret" between the bits. Is my thinking right on this or am I off base? Im I losing audio information in a digital amp? My understanding of the CI D200's is that the switching is analog, but the on/off concept still remains.
Also, Im driving the amps right from the NAD DAC and its working great, the highs are really nice and not bright at all so far. |
ref1000m's are lean and mean, no doubt (damping factor of 1000 as I recall), yet also most muscular and articulate. There is no flab in the sound whatsoever FWIW. That was the first thing I noticed when I first hooked them up. That might be a good or bad thing depending on the speakers need for damping. Some might endup sounding too lean, depending on personal preference.
THe ref1000ms are the perfect mate to the OHM Walsh speakers, especially my larger 5s, which are my mains. I think they are are a very good match with my smaller monitors also (Dynaudio and Triangle) however I could see where some might prefer less damping (more like a tube amp) with smaller monitors or even floorstanders with smaller drivers that might not be able to let loose as needed with such high damping. A damping factor of even 50 on a SS amp is generally considered to be fairly high and sufficient in many cases.
My impression of the Thiels is that they are a difficult load to drive similar to the larger OHMs, and a natural candidate for a Class D amp accordingly, though my recollection from hearing Thiels in the past is that they may tend towards the leaner side of things soundwise to start. I still think a highly damped Class D amp could deliver some very unique and extraordinary results with Thiels, similar to what I observe with Dynaudio. The BCs smooth and fatigue free top end could be a match made in heaven. I would expect similar things from the Channel Islands, but have not heard those so cannot say for sure. |
I'd be willing to bet that the Thiels will sound much more balanced after they break in. My Merlins sounded very bright and tizzy until they got some hours on them. Now they are VERY smooth and the bass is incredible. They hadn't been played very much right before I bought them. I suspect the woofers had to loosen up so that the balance between lows, mids and highs was correct. The tweeter has calmed down and gotten smoother too. Unfortunately, break-in time and dealers' return policy don't always match up. Search the forums for break-in time on the 2.4s and play them as much as you can (even if you're not listening). You're new class D amp should make that economical. |
I have had good partnerships between my Thiel CS2.4SEs and my Bel Canto REF1000Ms. If I had the choice, I would have preferred the REF500Ms. They use 3rd gen ICE modules and seem a little less lean than the REF1000Ms. |
Ok, bass is more resolved and has more heft and punch with better body. Dave Brubeck's "take five" drum solo towards the end of the songs is real nice! |
Ok. Hooked up. First impressions - so far promising for being completely green out the box. No glaring flaws. Highs are a bit softer, not so edgy. Simon and garfunkle live seems more "live". |
My Channel Islands come tonite. So in a few days to a week I'll give an update. If I'm lucky all goes well and the warm sound and good bass control will mate well with the hard to drive, bright Thiels. Not sure how long it will take to break in these amps enough to get a feel for the sound and dynamics, but it better be sooner than the 30 day trial period! |
Jim Thiel wasn't fond of Class D amps with anything but sub woofers. But, thing have been moving fast since Jim passed. I might get a chance to hear a Wyred 4 Sound amp on Thiels soon. I'm encouraged by the reviews, I do hope Class D can make running speakers like the Thiels more affordable. |
Bel Canto ref1000m monoblocks might come in used at around your budget and would have a good chance of ending your amp search for the Thiels. |
The direction I would take with any Thiel which wasn't totally clear in my last post was a tubed pre-amp with a ss power amp. Thiels really seem to like this combination. |
Djohnson54, no component is completely neutral. The otherwise very fine and superb value McCormack amps work wonderfully with more laid back products such as the Vandersteens. Some might even like the combination of McCormack's with other somewhat forward sounding products, including Thiels. I just thought a caution of doubling up on similar divergences from neutrality was in order. |
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Unsound, thanks for the link. I just don't experience that characteristic but, of course, every system is different. Steve says it's slight so maybe that's it. |
A high quality SS preamp from any number of companies into a push pull tube amp, also from lots of companies...problem (maybe) solved. I run a brilliantly overbuilt but extinct Kavent S33 dual mono balanced class A blah blah blah preamp into an upgraded Jolida 502p sporting (that's right...SPORTING) KT120 "mondo-a-mundo el heato mucho" tubes. My theory is to have the cleanest possible signal available before the electrons hit the Greasy Tube Tone Factory, spill out onto the magnesium/aluminum drivers in my Series II Silverline Preludes, and then into my addled brain. This works for me. Maybe it's the addled brain. |
Djohnson54, I'm not alone on the impression that the McCormack's tendency towards forwardness. Some years ago, in conversation with a Thiel rep, he agreed with me when I mentioned it. More recently this was posted here on Audiogon:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1306608523&openusid&zzStevemcx&4&5#Stevemcx |
Unsound, I've never heard the Thiels, just what I've read about their characteristics and requirements over the years. However, I've never heard anyone describe the McCormack amps as "forward." I'm using a DNA-0.5 Deluxe with a pair of Merlin VSM-MXes and it sounds wonderful. On the other hand, I also don't run direct into the amp which I think would tend to push everything forward anyway. |
Chuck,
I did the same thing like you did with Thiel 3.6. Thiel and CJ sound wonderful although The best combination I had in my room years back then was Thiel 3.6 and MCCormack DNA-1 rev.A deluxe edition in mono block configuration. |
Everything Dick, posts is true, but IMO the McCormack amps tend to be somewhat forward, something that might not compliment the Thiels. |
You might try a McCormack DNA-1 or DNA-0.5. They can be found on the 'Gon for $500-$700 all the time. They have a higher input sensitivity since they were designed mostly for McCormack's passive preamps which should be a plus if you still want to drive them w/o a preamp. If you still have a bright sound, it won't be the amp.
Also, don't forget that you can face the speakers toward each other wired out of phase and play white noise through them to speed the break-in process.
Dick |
Mezmo,
I hope your right. I keep hearing about no "emotion" in class d amps, but every professional review, save one, and almost all people who personally own the Channels really seem to like them. I never 100% trust professional critics - just cant really tell where their true intentions lie with advertisers and all. Most of the reviews of the Channels are of the older D200's not the newer D200 MKii which evidently improves the whole product top to bottom. If it turns out there is no "emotion" to these amps that may not bode well for the Thiels since they can sound analytical. Add to that the fact that I will want to drive them directly with my NAD DAC it could spell disaster - though the NAD sounds very, VERY nice. But I'll have a coulple of preamps to throw on them just to see. I could buy a used ARC preamp or CJ preamp just to see if the tubes "add" anything, but one step at a time. haha |
Curious to hear how the Channel Island monoblocks treat you. Had some Rowland 201s (class D monoblocks) on my 2.3s for a spell, and liked it just fine. Class D definitely elicits some strong reactions. As it's a relatively new way of going about high-end amplification, I suspect that there were some early efforts that weren't that swell and turned a lot of folks off of the idea. By all accounts, however, the technology has continued to improve. The Rowlands I have were relatively early, and I understand that things have only gotten better. Hopefully the Channel Island kit will be just what the doctor ordered. Certainly look promising to me (which is worth exactly nada, but anyway). Enjoy. |
Ok, I remember seeing this:
http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/a-mf2100.html
that is why I thought it was class D, I thought all MOSFET was class d. My mistake. |
Your cj MF 2100 is not a Class D amp, it's a class AB amp. |
I actually own an old MF2100, but its not powerful enough for the Thiels. However if I remember the MF series is a MOSFET powered amp, thus a D class amp. Someone correct me if I am wrong on that. A lot of people snub their noses at D class, but when I used my CJ on my old Vandersteen 2CE's they sounded good to me. And now im going to try these Channel Island d200 MKii Monoblocks, they are D class too. Let's hope they are suppose to have a warmer sound, which I hope will mate well to the Thiels. They also have a >1000 dampening factory that should be good for the hard to drive bass. |
I ran a pair of Thiel 3.6's with first a cj MF2500A and then a cj premier 350 both worked great and were ss offerings from cj. I used a cj premier 16II tubed preamp in combination with the ss cj amp and the presentation of was very smooth and detailed. I would recommend that route with the 2.4's.
Chuck |
