Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

holmz +1 - time domain response has significant SQ impact.it also has to include small signal steps, scaling to max power level to check dynamics

Which dynamics @westcoastaudiophile ?

We are not talking about impulse response anymore are we?
Are we talking about compression?
or some stickiness and hysterysis in the drivers?

I lost lock and am not following.

@jerryg123 

What’s really great is @amir_asr slams a line of affordable cables…

Thanks for acknowledging that. A $10 bottle of water is also affordable.  It doesn't mean they get a free pass to claim health benefits for it over a $1 one.

If a $100 cable is no better than a free one that came with your gear, then the truth needs to get out about that as well as a $1000+ cable.  Maybe to you $100 is nothing but for others, it is good money they don't want to throw out.

What’s really great is @amir_asr slams a line of affordable cables…

@amir_asr 

What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device. 

This is basically just stuff you are making up. You have 0 data to prove that all cables sound the same just like you have 0 data to prove they all sound different.

Don't use money as an excuse like you have some magic spending formula for audio. I haven't seen your system, your room, your measurements, nada. I am sincerely interested in this, thanks.

@fleschler 

@westcoastaudiophile No, I absolutely don’t believe that. After testing 100s of cables, I know for a fact on various systems, that the most expensive cables are often inferior (sounding). 

That is not "fact."  It is hyperbole with no proof of sound changing.  In just an afternoon, you could turn that into fact by only using your ears in a blind test to see if you can distinguish any of those two cables.  Repeat the test 10 times so that we know you are not guessing.  

Until then, what anxiety must be there to think there are so many cables with different sound instead of sitting back and enjoying music like we do....

@mitch2 I need to get a second preamp and I was deciding between the HPA4/LA4 and the Holo Serene.

Alpha Audio NET - Review Holo Audio Serene Level 1 preamplifier – Tastefully Serene (alpha-audio.net)

Holo Audio Serene Preamplifier - Analog Components - Audiophile Style

The above review compares the 2 preamps. I already own the LA4, and it is an end game preamp for my office. I have to decide today whether to buy a used HPA4 or the Serene. Not sure which way I will go on that.

@westcoastaudiophile 

@amir_asr "Do you really think we don’t listen to music?”using your own jargon, what “irks" me is a claim as you are able to distinguish in your listening tests between 0.001% and 0.005% THD sources, employing ~5% HD speakers, and unknown real load HD amp.

I haven't said that so it shouldn't irk you.  What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device. 

Many people here say as actual "A” SQ quality is better than “B”, even if setup “B” includes lil better measured standalone component, assuming integrated system performance. 

That's not remotely what they say.  They say they buy gear based on what they "hear."  They completely ignore measurements.  All they have to do is demonstrate that they only used their ears and we will be pals.  But they refuse to close their eyes and provide no other means to connect the experience to only what they hear.

@holmz +1 - time domain response has significant SQ impact.it also has to include small signal steps, scaling to max power level to check dynamics. 

@fleschler 

@westcoastaudiophile I don’t know of any high end/expensive/boutique cable manufacturers who provide testing measurements of their cables.

Iconoclast does. They have extensive specifications/measurements. Alas, none of that resulted in better/different sound:

 

I have been running through my preamp options here ranging from purely passive, to a high quality op-amp active stage, to a tube active stage with NOS Amperex (Holland), to a well-regarded unity gain solid state model. The preamp has been sort of a sticking point for me over the years and I have owned around 20 highly regarded (by reviewers) preamps, both tubed and solid state, and at varying price points up to and in a couple of cases exceeding $10K.

The recent comments here about the Benchmark LA4, caused me to reconsider that unit that I was previously interested in but for whatever reason never pursued. Based on all the "professional" reviews, as well as user/owner comments here and at Audio Asylum, it seems the LA4 measures superbly, and drives whatever signal is provided accurately, clearly, and without embellishment. Theoretically, that should work great for me since my front end (streamer/server and DAC) is known for being full-bodied and tonally dense, and my amplification is known for being musical - IOW, I do not need a preamp to add anything to the mix but only to provide a display, a remote, and to stay out of the way sonically.

The only negative I read from a minority of the reviewers is that in some systems they did not perceive the same level of body that they heard with other preamps, and particularly tubed preamps. A couple of people thought the Benchmark made their systems sound a little thin. Of course, Benchmark indicates this is likely because of improved timing and the absence of distortion (and the measurements support that assessment).

In summary, the excellent measurements (and reviews) resulted in my purchasing the unit but how it sounds with my gear, and compared to my existing preamp options, will be the deciding factor on whether I keep it. If it causes my system to sound thin, then I will not be keeping it since I have several other preamp options that sound really good.

holmz

As for checking out virtual systems there is a text box beneath each one with a link "read more" which expands it. The links I mentioned are embedded in the description of my system.

The FR is impressive.

Were there any time domain measurement like impulse or step function response? 

As for the topic of "blind testing" it just isn’t necessary or practical. Look, I drop a component in the rack and let it break in for a few weeks. I take it out before the 30 day return period expires. If I can’t tell a difference send it back. If my face freezes in "grinrictus" I leave it in. The people who argue about blind testing are just using it as a crutch to win an argument.

Well even in medicine the use oof blind/double-blind testing is standard.
So the witch doctor can cure quite a bit.

these stories have almost practical way to repeat themselves. How would Flescher’s neighbour know whether one needs a power cable or IC or fuse? It becomes a mishmash or trail and error to arrive at some nirvana, and it is not even clear that the sound is ni fact changed or not. It reads more like a story.

If those cables seem to make a difference, then do we believe that they will measure electrically different or not?

@westcoastaudiophile +10 Even his own member Mr. Hooper/Prof chooses and inferior distortion unit A over superb measuring unit B component (CJ versus Benchmark L4) for it’s possibly easier to listen or enjoy in his system. Personally, I think that is quite an extreme example of difference in sound, like the difference between the COS Engineering DV1v and DV2v DACs. Different presentation of music. (The latter two probably measure nearly the same though, they are so similar in construction, just D1v has twice the parts power section and chip count).

I could tell a CJ pre-amp or amp from super clean measuring solid state units, but not .0001% versus .0005% distortion.  Not even .1% from .0005% or probably 1% at 1Khz from .0005% at 100 db.

@amir_asr "Do you really think we don’t listen to music?”using your own jargon, what “irks" me is a claim as you are able to distinguish in your listening tests between 0.001% and 0.005% THD sources, employing ~5% HD speakers, and unknown real load HD amp.

Many people here say as actual "A” SQ quality is better than “B”, even if setup “B” includes lil better measured standalone component, assuming integrated system performance. audio system to check should include actual components, interconnects, components match, and room acoustics.

@amir_asr , if you go back and look at my posts on ASR I felt the same way, you were flip and taking cheap shots. Now, I agree not to take shots about your listening skills, tin ears, etc. You need to agree not to take cheap shots about listening experiences of others, it is irksome both ways. I don't even want to bring up your toilet and fart jokes, ugh.

@coralkong 

Put the multimeter down and try listening with your ears. You might be amazed at what you discover.

This is what irks me immensely.  Why on earth do you weaponize one of the main things we have in common?  The enjoyment of music?  Do you really think we don't listen to music?  That we don't use our "ears?"  Why build cheap/false talking points like this?  If you have a logical, technical argument, make it.  But for heaven's sake, don't resort to cheap shots like this. 

That aside, half of my reviews involve listening tests.  That is about 150 reviews a year which dwarfs any other reviewers out there. And of course any audiophile.  So don't tell me to listen.  I do and I know the limitations of that task for evaluating audio gear.

And we all experience what you do: the falsity of changes that are not real.  I have done AB tests of the cables sighted just like you do and reported those outcomes in reviews.  They are worthless and I indicate it as such.  And I note often how the cheap generic cable "sounded better."

So please, in this informed discussion, leave aside lines like this.  

@fleschler thanks for reply (again)! I still don’t see measurable performance metric you are looking for at manufacturer’s data, to name a few: loop resistance, loop inductance, EM shielding, flexibility, EOL, etc. in your reply I see price as only differentiator, even for the same manufacturer. 

"A $35 Chinese made cable is going to cut corners no matter how one looks at it.” - what electrical spec is compromised?

@westcoastaudiophile No, I absolutely don’t believe that. After testing 100s of cables, I know for a fact on various systems, that the most expensive cables are often inferior (sounding). High Fidelity cables using large magnets in line is one of the worst examples just based on poor engineering (which I previously described one $1 million system owner who was dissatisfied as was I, until he changed from $105,000 in those cables to $3,500 in cables). I have no idea how the HF cables test/measure and I doubt anyone else does either.

You can view the non-proprietary construction of the GroverHuffman.com cables (older site, could use an update on materials) and his patent. His cables sell for  $300s to $900, not $1000s or $10,000s. He loses potential customers because they don’t have the cachet of expensive, name brand cables. He has more than enough business (handmade) with a world-wide following.

A $35 Chinese made cable is going to cut corners no matter how one looks at it. In the commercial appraisal business one can offer cheap, fast and good quality work but only two, not three. I provided good quality (great quality) as fast as possible. Not cheap.

 

@fleschler thanks for reply! I see as on you are measuring cables by price, not electrical performance, and priciest cable does sound better.

@fleschler +1, the most important measurement= listening satisfaction :)
In LEAN manufacturing they have a saying, what gets measured gets done. The problem is you can measure too much and get lost in the details. This is why I stick with the 80/20 rule. 20% of any system provides 80% of the results. I don't see the value of buying a DAC or a cable that measures so well that only a bat can hear the difference. If you get that 20% right the rest is an adventure toward a moving target which we can only aim at but never hit...perfection. 

 

@westcoastaudiophile I don't know of any high end/expensive/boutique cable manufacturers who provide testing measurements of their cables.  I certainly don't know how the better sounding cables measure.  Similar to my prior occupation as a commercial real estate appraiser (not to be confused with residential appraisers), my exhaustive work involved both science (math, computer models, physical inspections, details, interviews) and art (interpretation of non-physical elements such as location, effects of details on the adjustments such as environmental issues, etc).  I provided reasons for all my adjustments, based on paired sales analysis and judgment calls (based on my experience and interviews).  

So it apparently is with cable manufacturing, a mixture of science and art.   I can't explain it.   I would hope that manufacturers would do a better job of it rather than puffery.  While most explain part of their cable construction, many don't, possibly due to proprietary construction limitations.   Even some of the most expensive cables have virtually no information (MasterBuilt, sound great in systems I've heard but I have no idea why).  

One of those best friends had worked part time a decade+ ago for a major audio high end retailer. He brought home a lot of equipment. He was generally dissatisfied. It is when he met my best friend (Golden Ear and remastering engineer) that he settled on his equipment which consists of a VPI Scout+/arm, Dynavector 20X2 H, McIntosh C20 (2nd version), RAM RM 9, Kyocera 310x and Von Schweikert VR35 export. He was still unhappy with his sound (this is in 2020). I proceeded to suggest changes which he gladly did. These included giving him a Black Synergistic Research power outlet, removing the cheater plug on his amp, replacing the XLO cable with GroverHuffman Empress cabling from 2016 for the CD player, pre-amp to amp and very low capacitance, all silver turntable cabling. He had a good quality turntable power cable and the other equipment have captive power cables. His shelves were wood and set on screw points on his stand. Two wobbled where the pre-amp and CD player stood. He replaced the screws and stuck blu-tack instead (his VPI sat on Aurios and a 2" thick concrete slab).

The result of my and his tinkering with cables, shelving and tweaks was utterly amazing. He is ecstatic with his system and although it is not high-end, it is oh so beautiful to listen to. His speakers permit great imaging and soundstaging nearly 90 degrees seated on side couches. He has excellent deep bass and full dynamic sound. Total current cost of his system is under $15K. (The VR35 export are superior to the VR33, using parts quality from the high end speaker line). He has returned the favor by introducing me to be-bop/post-bop jazz (he has the very expensive LPs) on CDs. My 50s-70s jazz collection has doubled by about 300+ in the past year (I have a sizable early jazz collection as well). Great performances and great sound. He purchased a large collection (55) of Mercury Living Presence classical CDs from hearing my complete collection.

This is where the enjoyment comes in and not in measuring equipment for my friends and myself. Give us some measurements so that we understand the limits and interactions of equipment, then listen for the rest. Cables and tweaks to date, require listening only without adequate (easy and quick) testing.

@fleschler thanks for your “story”, your “sales" skills are outstanding!

on other hand I am still not getting answer on my question, what manufacturer’s measurement of original cable is missing, and what measurement “improved” cable exceeds on?

 

@kota1  and @coralkong  We obviously think alike.  There is a point of demarcation, especially for trained listeners, where we know what we are hearing and can over 30 days make a "sound" decision.  

I guess in the circle I run with, remastering engineers, musicians, audio equipment manufacturers and audiophile friends are too stupid and uneducated to know better than test and measure audio equipment to prove they have made the correct choice.  I don't think so.

@westcoastaudiophile My neighbor and friend did not have anyone criticize his system but he heard others and knew there was something missing.  His system had/has great ambient soundstaging, good tone color and dynamics.  Many of his recordings sounded listenable.  Others did not.  My system pointed out to him that his was missing consistency, just like my choice of a Dynavector 20X2 L cartridge, whereby all my LPs sound was elevated, or my digital system which makes so many of my mono recordings (especially jazz) sound as real as stereo.  His system was so inaccurate that when a bass was played, it had notes up and down the scale come forward and recede, a highly irregular frequency response.  Once the new power cables were installed, playing a bass was a gripping experience with no holes in the scale.  My best two friends visited him as well and the one with the Golden Ear hearing within five minutes discovered further anomalies such as a metal sculpture and an open fireplace on the sidewalls were disfiguring the sound acoustically.  We closed off the fireplace and removed the sculpture and the sound became more coherent.   My neighbor was very thankful for the help.  His other cabling is Kubala Sosna and high end Siltech which sounds just fine in his system.

 

@fleschler please help me to understand what are you trying to say! is it about cables not measured / disclosed / faulty? 

Topic: "Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?"

Post: "My neighbor and friend was ashamed of his system when I lent him ONE power cable for his amp."

 

BTW- If your room is difficult and you want a top shelf reference Earl Geddes is a fantastic resource, check this out. The title is home theater but the principles appy to two channel as well. If you use a sub check page 236 for setup tips. Earl's PhD thesis was on bass management in small rooms:

Premium Home Theater Design and Construction

 

@amir_asr ,

Funny how you regress to passive/aggressive mannerisms when you get called out.

Put the multimeter down and try listening with your ears. You might be amazed at what you discover.

Go ahead and tell me that my "boutique" audio setup sounds the same with a $30 power cable and a $500 power cable. Go ahead and tell me that again.

See, here's the rub. Once you know better, you know. And no one can convince you otherwise.

So quit trying to "save the world" from itself, and try listening to the music. 

Your channel is a joke, pandering to fools who are desperately trying to convince themselves that their $500 (insert piece of equipment here) is just as good as a $15K (insert piece of equipment here).

You ought to be ashamed of yourself, really.

 

@holmz

As for checking out virtual systems there is a text box beneath each one with a link "read more" which expands it. The links I mentioned are embedded in the description of my system.

As for the topic of "blind testing" it just isn’t necessary or practical. Look, I drop a component in the rack and let it break in for a few weeks. I take it out before the 30 day return period expires. If I can’t tell a difference send it back. If my face freezes in "grinrictus" I leave it in. The people who argue about blind testing are just using it as a crutch to win an argument. Look, you need a panel of "trained listeners", you need the proper setup to switch quickly, and lets not go there. If you insist the best you can do IMO is buy a ABX Comapartor from Van Alstine but without a panel of trained listeners it still amounts to a "Pepsi Challenge" to my ears.

 

@holmz

How to measure a room is a great topic for a new thread. All I would say is whatever software you use get a good calibrated mic. There is DSPeaker, miniDSP, TrueRTA, REW, and of course Audyysey, DIRAC and ARC.

If this is a rabbit hole you don’t want to dig you can have a calibrator do it remotely such as www.accucalav.com:

 

holmz , It was stated correctly that this is a thread about measurements. Why not post some to discuss? It is a starting point, not a destination, OK?

Yeah - it could be interesting, but it is a lot easier to measure gear than an in room system.

 

If you look at my system profile I posted the in room measurements. If you read the system description you will see links to my components as well as some specs for my active speakers.

I only see the before/after measurements and the paradigm active reference mentioned. Are they doing the EQ themselves? Or is that happening elsewhere in the chain?

 

This isn’t a contest, this is a chance to compare ideas and obviously no one is perfect.

Your room measurement were nice to see the other day.

 

 @fleschler is starting a build I would love to be able to do, did you check it out?

Just now, but only a thick, door and another shot… so far 2 pictures.

 

He is building a room from the ground up and he posts measurements of the room, great stuff. BTW, your system doesn’t load properly when I check your profile. There are some "banging" systems I can’t even imagine in the virtual systems area. It provides inspiration for me personally, I don’t know about anyone else.

So yes, some not so much.

 

It took NO time to tell the difference once all fiver or six (I forgot) of his Pangea power cables were replaced with GroverHuffman cables.   Furthermore, my pre-amp was substituted for his Audio Research SP-28 and walloped it.  He decided to change the input tubes (6NG/6H6) as suggested from another audio engineer friend and that resulted in sound very similar to my pre-amp.   THERE IS NO NEED TO MEASURE OR BLIND TEST OBVIOUS SONIC DIFFERENCES THAT ARE SUPERIOR. 

Actually that is exactly what (and why it) should/could be tested.
I have never seen a fraction of an iota of measured difference presented in the cables, so it would be very interesting to know that they could be picked out consistently, and then why/how they are improved... Like “What is the mechanism that is at play here?”

 

You don't get this so stay off the Audiogon site.  My friend is so happy, he can hardly contain his joy and like me, listens at night for 2 hours or more.

We have two hypothesis:

1. It is psychological
2. it is real
   1. And maybe it cannot be measured.
   2. and maybe it can be.

I am interested in # 1 and 2B.

… ditto for anti vibration footers as well.

@amir_asr You are such a know it all.  Such a foolish person.   I don't why I answer except you are on Audiogon lecturing us.  

My neighbor and friend was ashamed of his system when I lent him ONE power cable for his amp.  He had the habit of changing gear on a regular basis, including a loss of $22,000 on a D'Agostino amp that he paid $46,000 for.  I heard it when I first moved in in 2019 and found his system so distant and thin sounding on my CDs that I told him I had never thought of those recordings sounding that way.  He came over to my house and heard my "lowly" system (he is also a gentleman and did not criticize my system either) and was astonished that the same recordings had so much color and dynamics.   He also thought other visitors were just being kind and wouldn't criticize the sound.  This is an electrical engineer with a net worth of around $40 million self-made in real estate, not a stupid person,  

It took NO time to tell the difference once all fiver or six (I forgot) of his Pangea power cables were replaced with GroverHuffman cables.   Furthermore, my pre-amp was substituted for his Audio Research SP-28 and walloped it.  He decided to change the input tubes (6NG/6H6) as suggested from another audio engineer friend and that resulted in sound very similar to my pre-amp.   THERE IS NO NEED TO MEASURE OR BLIND TEST OBVIOUS SONIC DIFFERENCES THAT ARE SUPERIOR.  You don't get this so stay off the Audiogon site.  My friend is so happy, he can hardly contain his joy and like me, listens at night for 2 hours or more.

You are the condescending person, not me.  I don't ridicule friends who just want to hear music, imperfectly or with really old equipment that may need maintenance (like old caps).  Many of my friends are musicians, singers, orchestral players and audio engineers.  I often praise friends telling them they made good choices years ago who have older Marantz, Fisher and Yamaha gear for their musical sound, tube and solid state.  

Mid-fi isn't a price, its an execution of audio fidelity.  There are so many great older mid-fi equipment pieces I've heard.  Even a lowly <$75 Sherwood 7100 receiver is mid-fi in my book.  Hook it up to a Legacy Signature III and enjoy beautiful sound.  Cabling can make a difference for mid-fi equipment.  

Saving people from foolishly spending 10X on cabling, etc. compared to their equipment, especially for less than mid-fi equipment is a mitzvah/a good deed.  I remember a friend 30 years ago who wanted to purchase a $3000 CD player to go with a Pioneer 1970s receiver and Onkyo speakers, hooked up with the cheapest RCA ICs and lamp cord.  What a mistake in spending money that would have been.  

AND finally, I 100% disagree with your assessment concerning cables and tweaks.  I say that I'm right.  Most manufacturers of quality audio equipment say that I am right.   They suggest and often urge customers to purchase complimentary equipment and cabling to extract the maximum from their equipment.  They often design special footers for their equipment, anti-vibration chassis, etc.  I've read an ASR forum where the members spent pages excoriating a member when he used an anti-vibration platform under his amps.  If it worked for his equipment, why not?  It may not work for others but maybe it did for his system.  

 

@holmz , It was stated correctly that this is a thread about measurements. Why not post some to discuss? It is a starting point, not a destination, OK?

If you look at my system profile I posted the in room measurements. If you read the system description you will see links to my components as well as some specs for my active speakers. This isn’t a contest, this is a chance to compare ideas and obviously no one is perfect. @fleschler is starting a build I would love to be able to do, did you check it out? He is building a room from the ground up and he posts measurements of the room, great stuff. BTW, your system doesn’t load properly when I check your profile. There are some "banging" systems I can’t even imagine in the virtual systems area. It provides inspiration for me personally, I don’t know about anyone else.

 

OK, let’s get back to basics then, soon as your post your system, the pics, the measurements we can discuss.

For what point? Gear shaming? Or some other strawman argument?

 

Maybe we should just stick to factual things?

For instance the highly linear Purifi motors that their drivers use have lower measured distortion.
And the Vandersteen drivers, and some of Accuton and other drivers, have cones that are more pistonic and don’t have breakup modes happening as easily.

Some may not like their sound, and may prefer more distortion if their ears like that better… but let’s not fool ourselves as some important things can be measured.

We cannot measure synergy, and we cannot easily measure bias. Those are two thing that have a huge impact on how good we perceive the system to be.

Whether a 110dB SINAD is better than a 120dB SINAD is able to be discerned is largely objective, and whether one likes distortion is largely subjective and also in a known objective thing that shows that people like it... they like the sound of some types of distortion.

There is no point in arguing about it or denying it… but it is not what most would call “higher fidelity”.

Lower fidelity make be preferred… OK… so what?

@amir_asr 

Otherwise, let's leave fantastical stories involving one's imagination out of a thread discussing measurements....

OK, let's get back to basics then, soon as your post your system, the pics, the measurements we can discuss. 

@fleschler 

Imagine,  my neighbor's $1/2 million system and he was strangling the sound using Pangea power cables (he has high end speaker, ICs and digital cabling).  Once he replaced them with superior design and manufactured cables, he (and I) now enjoy great sound.  

So half a million dollar didn't get him great sound?  All the money went toward what exactly in those components?  Produce mediocre sound?  Did he think that before you showed up?  Did he apologize for how poor the system sounded before you introduced him to these cables?

Or... did he think he had assembled an amazing system?  That improper listening test made him think new cables did anything?  Go back to his home and do a blind test of the new cables vs Pangea.  Repeat 10 times and let's see if he can tell them apart 8 out of 10 times.  Otherwise, let's leave fantastical stories involving one's imagination out of a thread discussing measurements....

@fleschler 

@coralkong  Really?  Or course!  That's why I tell non-audiophiles not to purchase expensive cables or tweaks because they won't hear a difference if the rest of their system is below mid-fi.  

How are you judging their system to be "mid-fi?"  Just looking at the price?  Who says you are right?  Do you not care that you are being condescending to them in that manner?

Fortunately that is the right thing to tell them because none of these tweaks have been shown to make a difference to sound when only the ear is involved.  So no harm is done....

 

OK, @amir_asr , this site has a virtual system page. Would you please attach a "virtual system" to your own profile? You can see how it has a list of components, a text box to describe your system, and then you can upload some pics, measurements, whatever. I am sincerely interested.

Thank you.

@coralkong 

They lost me for good after hooking up a $400 power cable to a $500 DAC and then stating that it measures, and therefore sounds, exactly the same as a $30 power cable hooked to the same DAC. Uh-huh. 

huh indeed.  You are telling me with straight face that a much more expensive audio product was shipped with poor AC cable as to need another one for $500???  If you paid thousands of dollars for it, what on earth did that money go to if it is not independence from mains interference or whatever the new cable supposed to do?

If there ever is a backward logic, it is that.  That your expensive, boutique audio products are not engineered well enough that they need all sorts of tweaks. I would think it is an insult to their designers that you would want to mess with their products this way. 

The products I use to test with these cables are state of the art despite their reasonable costs.  And they show that if you buy a performant audio product, they are in need of no tweaks.  This is demonstrated both with measurements and music null tests.

@westcoastaudiophile 

@amir_asr "They make very rudimentary measurements often using obsolete audio analyzers” 

Dear, your APx555 with -117dB NF is outdated to measure my -124dB NF DAC :-), not talking here about RFI/EMI noise polluted environment. 

nice try though! 

I already corrected you on this in the last thread.  Here is the results of a recent review again:

As you see the analyzer has no problem measuring dynamic range of 130 dB for this DAC.  Your 124 dB DAC is good but is 6 dB or one whole bit worse than this unit.  If you are charging more than a few hundred dollars for it, I suggest going back and redesigning it to lower its noise unless you are having noise pollution as you mention.

You also looked up the wrong spec for APx555 analyzer.  The -117 dB is THD+N.  This is a worst case spec (company is very conservative in this manner).  I am able to measure THD+N to -124 dB:

With FFT analysis like above, we can dig as low as we want as far as distortion spikes anyway.

 

@coralkong  Really?  Or course!  That's why I tell non-audiophiles not to purchase expensive cables or tweaks because they won't hear a difference if the rest of their system is below mid-fi.   The reverse is true as well.  Imagine,  my neighbor's $1/2 million system and he was strangling the sound using Pangea power cables (he has high end speaker, ICs and digital cabling).  Once he replaced them with superior design and manufactured cables, he (and I) now enjoy great sound.  

Slightly different take: I chose not to upgrade my cartridge to a $4K Hana Umami Red despite it probably sounding great on my hot stampers but possibly not as great on the vast majority of my LPs  I'm using a Dynavector 20X2 L and a Zesto Allesso SUT $3.6K (paid 50%) which is great sounding for all my LPs.  I paid more for the SUT than the cartridge but I will never have to upgrade my SUT again.  

ASR is a joke for people who want to think that their $500 (insert source piece of equipment here) is just as good, if not better than a $15000 (insert source piece of equipment).

ASR's "measurements" PROVE it's better!

They lost me for good after hooking up a $400 power cable to a $500 DAC and then stating that it measures, and therefore sounds, exactly the same as a $30 power cable hooked to the same DAC. Uh-huh. 

The entire process is flawed.

@mitch2 When I look(ed) for components, the specs (hopefully honestly) told me data I could use to assemble synergy. After having owned inefficient speakers and 20 years of electrostats, i decided I preferred conventional multi-driver dynamic speakers. Amps to match the speakers and pre-amps to match the amps (Such as my 1990s Audio Research SP-14 and Classic 60-a great match). Cartridge specs to match the arm.

Unfortunately, there is a lack of information for cables and tweaks (usually none). Trial and error are the remaining methods. I don’t use blind tests as I have both Golden Ear friends who are also remastering engineers (with their own and different audio systems) and friends and family who come over and listen for hours. The untrained listeners have enjoyed music at my home for decades, regardless that I heard the problems with the reproduction as much as the good sound. As I have become a better listener, I also can point out subtle differences and evaluate them over time. I only want to make changes to my system if the change is dramatically better. I’ve dismissed probably 75% of subtle change equipment (mostly tweaks and cables), maybe more. I auditioned 11 footers for my pre-amp and isolation transformer (Bryston BIT20) as the two dealers asked for my opinion and sent them to me free. Only one was extraordinarily bad and I tried it under every piece of equipment (except my turntable) but always resulting in a lugubrious paced sound, certainly a black background as advertised, but dark and muddy (Magico Q Pods).

And why do high end/expensive tweaks and cables have to be packaged like jewelry? Why are some footers packaged in elephant foot proof padded cases (Q Pods for instance)? Is it just a vanity item for some (YES)! My Synergistic Research power outlets, fuses and HFTs come very simply packaged in foam in paper boxes. That’s all they require.

@fleschler you have good point! I know some important performance metrics are not disclosed because companies are too greedy, competition, standards are not consistent or detailed, third party test LABs are getting the best - tuned samples, for qualification and publicity. 

@amir_asr "their performance shot up through the roof” 

because “xyz" roof is too low? 

@amir_asr "They make very rudimentary measurements often using obsolete audio analyzers” 

Dear, your APx555 with -117dB NF is outdated to measure my -124dB NF DAC :-), not talking here about RFI/EMI noise polluted environment. 

nice try though! 

Enjoy your system and music but don’t engage in trying to convince others that you are right. You will lose that argument in any evidence based discussion.

Thank you. Keep up the good work at ASR. When I am describing my observations about components or cables, it is not about being right, but being supportive to other people. Like others are doing by measuring. Being ’right’ is not the only motivation.

@tantejuut

We don’t all have 1000+ people at hand to conduct (DBX) tests for any statistic significance. Or have expensive test equipment. Interpret measurements correct and be humble about your personal bias as a tester or audiophile. I can live with that.

Yes, you only need one person, you, to conduct the quick test I described above. As long as your listening tests have statistical strength -- hence the 10 trials -- you will have my attention for sure. We will take on the task of measuring and recreating the listening test to see what is going on.

And yes, being humble goes a long way. I have lost track of how many times I have been wrong in sighted/uncontrolled listening. After a while, you learn to not put forth such testing to have any strong value.

On tester bias, I am not following you. When I measure a piece of audio gear, it is the instrument which generates results and it doesn’t have bias. Yes, you can come up with tests that are not credible such as talking about this and that characteristic of a cable. As I explained, we don’t listen to cables directly so such information while sometimes useful, is not proof of efficacy. The proof is what sound comes out of an audio device/speaker/headphone.

For the above reason, my tests focus on output of audio device. If it never changes across testing a large number of such tweaks, it does put such products on their back, making it doubly important that listening tests be conducted such that they only reflect sound and are beyond mere guessing.

@tantejuut 

4) On the other hand, people should not make claims about the hearing capabilities of other people. If multiple people subjectively can describe parameters of a component that can’t be supported by measurements (yet) it should be taken as a starting point for further investigation. 

Yes, further investigation would be for said people to conduct a blind test to make sure that only their ears told them that.  If other senses were involved, naturally measurements would not show it because we are only measuring sound.

With respect to many audio tweaks like cables, the above test is dead simple as levels don't change.  So all you have to do is hide the identity of what is being changed and see if the listener can detect the change at least 8 out of 10 times.  You can take seconds or days to listen for such a change.  And do so in your own relaxing home environment, system and music.

If you don't want to do that, then the road ends there really.  No sense in then insisting that you are "hearing" a difference.  Enjoy your system and music but don't engage in trying to convince others that you are right.  You will lose that argument in any evidence based discussion.

4) On the other hand, people should not make claims about the hearing capabilities of other people. If multiple people subjectively can describe parameters of a component that can’t be supported by measurements (yet) it should be taken as a starting point for further investigation. We don’t all have 1000+ people at hand to conduct (DBX) tests for any statistic significance. Or have expensive test equipment. Interpret measurements correct and be humble about your personal bias as a tester or audiophile. I can live with that.

1) It is a good thing that measurements can inspire companies to bring the performance up to a higher level. Consumers should be taken seriously.

2) We listen to sound that is generated by components who work on rectified, filtered, stabilized, modulated, transformed electricity. Everything between the grid matters. That includes all cables and connectors, just as capacitors or diodes for example.

3) Cable companies should not make false claims and deliver proof. I can agree on that part. It can be hard to listen for those tiny changes. Recently I discovered that a cheap Van Damme tourgrade starquad bested my Siltech. I am a pragmatic audiophile so I sold it on eBay.