I started this 2 years ago. Got the B&W and loved them but recently moved up to the Wilson Alexia 2 which are in a different league of amazing.
Narrowed to 3: 802D3, Sopra 3, Reference 3
Hi all,
Here's the situation:
Room is 14x17 with vaulted ceilings from 9" to 14", and the room is mostly open to a foyer with high ceiling and is about 10x10.
I'm currently running a setup scavenged from my home theater:
Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ > Rotel RC-1590 Preamp > Rotel RB-1582 mk2 amp > B&W 805 D3
The sound overall is excellent, but it's a little bright and lacks bass presence (as you'd expect for a 2 way bookshelf). Here are my top speakers I've auditioned:
B&W 802D3 ( Auditioned with: Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ > McIntosh C52 > McIntosh 601) at Magnolia
KEF Reference 5 (Auditioned with Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ > McIntosh C47 > McIntosh MC452) at Magnolia at the same time as the 802.
Focal Sopra 3 (Auditioned with NAIM DAC > NAIM NAP 500 DR Amp - 140W per channel) at difference location
I also heard the KEF Reference 3 and Blade but ruled them out, the Ref 3 for sound, and the Blade for price and it being kind of ugly.
Here's the thing, I feel like I'm not sure what to get. I love the general sound of the 802, but I'm afraid even with the MC452 it'd be a bit bright. It also really lacked the presence in the bass like the Reference 5.
The Reference 5 sounds wonderful, and the bass is prolific, but I'm a little concerned about it being too warm. I heard the Ref 5 and 802s in the same room with virtually the same equipment, back to back, and they were so very different. The Ref 5 was warm, with rich full mids, that maybe were even too lush, with bass so good I honestly thought the subwoofer was on.
The 802 had good bass, but nothing to write home about (and it even had the more powerful 601 monoblocks), but the clarity was astounding, I just fear it'll be a little too bright for my room, which seems to lean bright already. That said, there is just something so exciting about the sound of this speaker playing orchestral. The problem was I much preferred the KEF for rock/r&b.
Then, to add to the mix, I liked the Focal Sopra 3 a lot, but I also felt it lacked bass presence, though it was on the weakest amp by a wide margin. The Focal seemed to be the middle ground between the B&W and KEF, but the bass concerned me. I'm not a bass nut, but I do want my bass to be powerful and don't want to have to add a sub. (Even for orchestral, I felt the Focal lacked a bit in the low cello and bass parts)
My plan was to keep the Mytek, and probably get a McIntosh C47 and MC452 or MC462, as I think the Rotels are probably too bright and underpowered for any of these setups. I was definitely hitting 300+W on the 802s during my audition while listening to orchestral music.
Thoughts? Is the KEF really that pudgy in the middle, is the B&W really that bright, and does the Sopra 3 really lack bass presence?
p.s. I thought the Blade was better balanced, but also still pretty warm.
Here's the situation:
Room is 14x17 with vaulted ceilings from 9" to 14", and the room is mostly open to a foyer with high ceiling and is about 10x10.
I'm currently running a setup scavenged from my home theater:
Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ > Rotel RC-1590 Preamp > Rotel RB-1582 mk2 amp > B&W 805 D3
The sound overall is excellent, but it's a little bright and lacks bass presence (as you'd expect for a 2 way bookshelf). Here are my top speakers I've auditioned:
B&W 802D3 ( Auditioned with: Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ > McIntosh C52 > McIntosh 601) at Magnolia
KEF Reference 5 (Auditioned with Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ > McIntosh C47 > McIntosh MC452) at Magnolia at the same time as the 802.
Focal Sopra 3 (Auditioned with NAIM DAC > NAIM NAP 500 DR Amp - 140W per channel) at difference location
I also heard the KEF Reference 3 and Blade but ruled them out, the Ref 3 for sound, and the Blade for price and it being kind of ugly.
Here's the thing, I feel like I'm not sure what to get. I love the general sound of the 802, but I'm afraid even with the MC452 it'd be a bit bright. It also really lacked the presence in the bass like the Reference 5.
The Reference 5 sounds wonderful, and the bass is prolific, but I'm a little concerned about it being too warm. I heard the Ref 5 and 802s in the same room with virtually the same equipment, back to back, and they were so very different. The Ref 5 was warm, with rich full mids, that maybe were even too lush, with bass so good I honestly thought the subwoofer was on.
The 802 had good bass, but nothing to write home about (and it even had the more powerful 601 monoblocks), but the clarity was astounding, I just fear it'll be a little too bright for my room, which seems to lean bright already. That said, there is just something so exciting about the sound of this speaker playing orchestral. The problem was I much preferred the KEF for rock/r&b.
Then, to add to the mix, I liked the Focal Sopra 3 a lot, but I also felt it lacked bass presence, though it was on the weakest amp by a wide margin. The Focal seemed to be the middle ground between the B&W and KEF, but the bass concerned me. I'm not a bass nut, but I do want my bass to be powerful and don't want to have to add a sub. (Even for orchestral, I felt the Focal lacked a bit in the low cello and bass parts)
My plan was to keep the Mytek, and probably get a McIntosh C47 and MC452 or MC462, as I think the Rotels are probably too bright and underpowered for any of these setups. I was definitely hitting 300+W on the 802s during my audition while listening to orchestral music.
Thoughts? Is the KEF really that pudgy in the middle, is the B&W really that bright, and does the Sopra 3 really lack bass presence?
p.s. I thought the Blade was better balanced, but also still pretty warm.
82 responses Add your response
Well if anyone is concerned about fasteners into an extremely dense baffle just give Richard Vandersteen a call, he answers the phone ( press 2 at the menu ) since 1977... and at ( actually for far less $ ) every pair is hand tuned in the Anechoic chamber Mayor - nice choice of speakers, enjoy them in good health!!!! |
RE: stringreen5,503 posts08-17-2018 4:49pmWhy would you not have Vandersteen speakers on your search list? Well, for starters, it was brought to my attention that Vandersteen's $10-$20K loudspeakers uses self-tapping wood-screws to secure (make that "attach") the driver's to the baffle board !!! That in itself is a reason to stay away at those price points. pj |
RE:
audiotroy2,421 posts08-12-2018 7:05pmMilipai
almost every company offers the same margins and we dont sell B&W
nor Focal. Not huge B&W fans as the Diamond tweeter is a little too
much for us. We love the Focals but we dont need the line as we have the
Paradigm Persona line. Lets face facts Proac was a player in the 90s same as Audio Physic both make good speakers but are hardly the go to lines they were 20 year ago. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ So true guys. BUT, Paraguana (lol) Persona over Focal ? pj |
Mayoradamwest and others You address 2 speaker lines I hope to audition in the same dealer showroom tomorrow. The dealer also carries Paradigm. I read your comments carefully and would appreciate any additional thoughts. I am trading my B&W 802d2's with the object of improving midrange clarity and diminishing high frequency 'ring'. I recently purchased the ML 523/534 combination, which reprises the lush sound of the ML-7/xx but with greater clarity and high frequency extension. The new ML combination diminished but did not eliminate the 802d2's brightness, and exposed some lack of midrange clarity. Having enjoyed the B&W nautilus series for 20 years I lean towards purchase of the 802d3's...which are reputed to improve on the two 802d2 'deficiencies' just cited. Another motive for staying with B&W is my need to overcome the sound absorption of upholstered furniture and draperies....use is in a living room, not a dedicated listening room. Additionally, I listen almost exclusively to classical music, piano in particular, and very much like the improvement in reproduction of piano music that the newer ML electronics in combination with the 802d2's produced. Thirdly, the B&W's have a room-filling ambiance that I imagine is audible to an orchestra's conductor but not in the same measure by members of the audience....in other words, an 'unrealistic' (for concert-goers) but very pleasurable sonic experience. I ask if the KEF reference 5's in particular (or the Paradigm speakers) equal the 802d3's in 'sound staging' and 'ambiance', have equal bass reproduction, bring still greater clarity to orchestral music. Thanks |
Congratulations on your new speakers, I try to listen to what's popular at the dealership' to narrow it down then bring home the finalists to see how well they sound in my room. Having bought expensive speakers that bowled me over in the showroom sound rough at home now I just don't chance it. if I can't find a pair to demo at home and I really need to know I'll buy them used to mitigate the damage should I be disappointed. |
@bassdude and @mtrot I actually listened to Leonard on the Aeris! You're spot on with the lower mid bass on them. That midwoofer's magnetic structure alone is 10 lbs, and in that open baffle arrangement, there isn't any cabinet resonance at all. The dipole arrangement on Aeris plus Wavelet correction really makes the transition from sub bass to midbass so clean and sets the speaker apart. I believe that is a contributing factor to how resolving and revealing the Legacy is. |
I just became a dealer for Vandersteen Audio speakers. We respect territories. I am blown away with the performance of the Vandersteen Quatros with Bryston 4B- 3 amplifiers. I also like Audio Research Pre-Amps with this combination. Look up and find a local Vandy dealer...Amazing Powered Woofers with lots of room correction too ! |
I have to agree with @bassdude on the Legacy Aeris. Of the 3 options, I'd go with the Sopra, but the Aeris has a richness to the texture of instruments and voices that really makes it stand apart from the others. I auditioned the Sopra, 803D and Magicos. On the Legacy each instrument is in its own plane- I've never heard better depth from a system. There are very pronounced differences in the layers as well as very subtle depth and width cues that were only revealed on the Aeris. Well recorded classical or jazz piano showed how the Aeris correctly portrayed not only the timbre of the instrument (I'm super picky on piano) but also the space of the room it was recorded in around the instrument. I think the extra layers had a lot to do with the open baffle 10" and 8" drivers on the Aeris top. The dual 12" subs and passive radiator really afforded a realistic weight to each instrument. I really like the OP's ROI list! That's important to remember :) |
I replaced the Rotel RB-1582mkii with the MC452 2 days ago and it completely changed the sound in my room. I’m astonished at the bass out of these 805D3s. I doubt I’ll need a sub in this room with the 802s. I’m excited to see how much better it will get with the McIntosh preamp and AQ cables, but I will say this Mc amp with the 805 is a winning combo. |
The breakup distortion the new midrange on B&W D3 series was designed to ameliorate still doesn’t do it to the degree that it does in your 805D3 with its butyl, rubber surround. Consider adding a subwoofer. Your room may be overloaded by the very top B&W one (& some others) so ideally, you’d want to listen to it first in your room. You’ve plenty of room left in your budget for good cable so be sure to get that right. The cable company lets you try before you buy but some of that flexibility may be attainable elsewhere. |
mayoradamwest...Don’t mean to throw a wrench into your speaker choice column ..but..the Acoustic Zen Crescendo II is truly a music making machine of the highest order that has to be heard to be believed...a true contender in the sub $25,000.00 price range. Good luck with your search. |
I have owned many, many, many cables from both ends of the spectrum ($400 looms to $30k looms). What I have found, is that MIT cables have consistently allowed my system(s) to sound their best. They deliver everything they claim, but most of all, my music just sounds so unbelievably organic, dynamic and tonaly correct. MIT cables also allow you to feel as though you are in the space of the musicians like no other I have heard. I’ve wasted a lot of time and money attempting to improve and or deny how good they are...they are simply wonderful cables! By the way, there are diminishing returns to some degree, so you can have 90% of the best performance within MIT for an affordable price. If interested, I have a supplier who can get you anything by MIT at an extremely good price. I am a long time customer of his, but have no affiliation or monetary connection with his business. He is simply a veteran of the audio industry with tons of experience and knowledge. |
Hi, I just thought I would post my 10P's worth to your query, even though I live in the UK. Not sure if Gato Audio are distributed in the US but if they are try and get to listen to a pair of Gato Audio FM-50 floorstanders. Marvelous speakers with all the frequencies you could possibly wish for, including excellent bass response. They are bi-wirable/bi-amp(able?) also have a set of pins at the back which can be set to give greater or less, frequency response to suit your ears. I prefer them to B&W 800 series anyday although to be fair I have not compared them to the Diamond range. Even so, they are a truly superb sounding pair of speakers, which in the UK at least, are retailing for around the £7K mark. Best of luck in your pursuit of great sound and best regards to you. Namar57 |
This thread took an interesting turn ;-) As I mentioned above, I ordered 2 sets of AudioQuest Water XLR interconnects. That said, my system is currently around 40k, and there is no way I would spend more than around 10% on cables, let alone 30%. I mean, with 12k, I'd be way better off improving other areas of my system. I do believe cables matter... a little... on a system that has had all the other areas optimized. In my mind the ROI is in this order: 1) Speakers 2) Acoustic treatements 3) Source/DAC 4) Amp/Preamp 5) literally anything else 6) cables With an extra 10k not spent on cables, I could have gone to the 800D3 speakers, or done a really sophisticated room treatment, or upgraded to something like a Chord DAVE, probably even a Pass Labs X350.8 (when including my existing amp budget) or Pass Labs preamp. |
Whoops, I meant to write: "I’m NOT trying to convince you otherwise." (Your anecdote about the a system "springing to life" after changing the Ethernet cable only adds to my skepticism about your other anecdotal experience with other cables. Having seen many debates over ethernet/digital cables, with input from electrical engineers, it seems to me the technical case made for audible differences is weaker than the one for audible differences to be extremely unlikely. But many audiophiles think *everything* makes a difference, which is precisely what can happen when one relies purely on uncontrolled, subjectivity-based anecdote. Our perception can change for various reasons, and when you always ascribe this to an outside cause, it allows people to come up with all sorts of dubious and contradictory ideas. It’s why the world is filled with crack-pot medical nostrums - and countless other wild claims - that have fervent believers). |
Prof, Please try replacing those $800 each Pirelli Pzereos on a Ferrari with some nice Copper glass ply, tires and see where that takes you. Cables are one part of setting up a system and yes they can highlight certain frequencies or reveal more information. or mask informatin. Your evidence may be valid to you and your ability to hear, or it may be that the "expensive cables" you heard were not worth the money or it may be that your system does not have the resolution required to enable you to experience these differenences or your speakers don't have the resolution required, it could be a zillion reasons. Without hearing your set of variables we can not come up with an answer. Most cable demos we do are very audibile and we can show through demontration how better cables dramatically improve a system. We did one demo where we changed one ethernet cable and the system sprang to life that cable cost $210.00 and was the only change we made. We have changed a single USB cable and have similar differences. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
audiotroy, I’m not saying in your case that you are out to shaft people in selling cables. I see no reason to think you don’t honestly believe what you say about the performance of high end audiocables. And I’m trying to convince you otherwise. Your car/tires analogy only might hold if audio cables had the type of audible difference you and other audiophiles ascribe to them, which is begging the question at hand. If high end cables are changing the sound in a tone-control manner, that’s not higher fidelity, it’s choosing a way to color the sound. If they perform "better" in terms of actual fidelity, actually passing more, and more accurate information than lower priced competently made cables, then that claim seems to remain problematic.I’ve given reasons in long threads on this elsewhere so need to go in to it here. What you offer is anecdote, and I have my own anecdotal evidence to justify why I personally wouldn’t take your "30 percent of the budget" advice. I’ve heard speakers I own hooked up to regular old belden cables, and also hooked up to $40,000 worth of Nordost (and other) cables. If there was *any* sonic difference going on, it didn’t jump out and sure as hell wouldn’t have been worth such an insane difference in price point between the cables to me. I’m no high roller, but a rough estimate of part of the system I’ve been using at home is around $45,000 in speakers/amps/pre/turntable/dac.Yet a rough estimate I spend on my cabling (mostly belden and old kimber pbj and some other cables) is around $400. (Which is probably more than I’d spend now if I were to re-do it). So that’s about .8 percent of my budget on my cables. Whereas if I’d spent your recommended 30 percent, I’d have laid out about $13,600 just for cables!!! I can buy amazing speakers for that amount of money! As I’ve detailed in a long thread on this forum, I’ve been out auditioning a great many terrific, well regarded loudspeakers. And usually they have been hooked up to very expensive audiophile brand cables, power conditioners, ac cables etc. Yet, as I have expressed that thread, almost none managed to impress me as much as my own speakers - in any respect, be it detail, resolution, tonality, etc. And my poor speakers are being fed by "meager" cheap cables. That strongly suggests to me that my audio budget - as outrageous is it is in light of your advice about cable expenditure - has been spent more wisely where it matters to me; the quality of speakers in particular far swamps any apparent contribution of expensive cabling. I’ve "saved" a tremendous amount of money that I would have had to spend if I listened to rules like the one you espouse. If I had another $13,000 to spend, I’m quite sure that sonic benefits would be much better realized by putting it into even better speakers (or room treatment) etc, vs cabling. You have your views based on your experience. I get that. I’m just offering another view, and why I’m glad I don’t follow the type of advise you are giving. And offering alternative viewpoints may make someone, like the OP, think a bit more before simply imbibing audiophile lore about the money they should put in to cabling. It may be helpful, maybe not, depending on the mindset of whoever reads it. But that's how it goes. (That’s all I’ll write on that subject here, as it’s been covered in the cable forum anyway). Cheers, |
Mayor the analogy was when it is time to replace warn tires on an expensive high end car replacement tires are expensive, don't put on the good tires watch the car's performance suffer greatly. The only way you know if you really like the B&W better than the Kef's or vice versa is to hear both on the same system or at least setup with electronics similar to what you are using or going to use. The KEF's you might have actually liked better than the B&W on the correct electronics, the B&W are excellent we have heard the 802 and they didn't rock out boat but what you like is up to you. As mentioned before these are all fantastic state of the art contenders and with a suitably well setup system any of these loudspeakers should make you very happy. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@audiotroy I've agreed with all your other feedback, but the analogy with cars I'm not so sure... I just happen to be somewhat of a subject matter expert in sports cars. The reality is that for ~99.99% of sports car buyers, they will buy a car and will be set. It's not a matter of buying expensive tires, so much as they come with expensive tires and you should always just replace them with the same thing. The audio world is different. You can't just buy speakers. They obviously won't play sound by themselves. It's more akin to the speakers being the chassis or body of the car, and the electronics being the engine. Perhaps the cables are the suspension. I could have an amazing chassis and engine, but if I put on shocks from an '88 Buick, the car is probably going to feel pretty shitty. As an update, I heard the Ref 5 and 802s again last night on the exact setup that I wanted Mytek > C47 > MC452, and it was an easy decision. The Ref 5 sound good, and have an epic mid and low end, but there was just something a little unnatural about the sound for me. The 802s were really just spectacular. I ordered them in white, along with the 452 and C47. Since I was throwing around money, I also ordered AQ Water ICs, but still need speaker cable, power cables, and perhaps a power conditioner. |
The Doctor is correct! My recommendation would be to call Joe Abrams at Equus Audio/Portal Audio and discuss your system and budget. He is an audio industry veteran who will give you sage advice for free. He also has huge discounts on MIT cables which are extremely musical and involving to listen through. |
Prof lets make the comparision with a sports car you going to spend $80k on a sports car and just replace the expensive stock tires with just anything and expect the system to perform? The fact that most people in audio who have acutally demoed cables will agree with premise that cables will make a rather audible difference in the performance of a system. We have purchased our demo cables at a very ridiculous amount of money, if we couldn't hear the difference do you think we would have shelled out the money ourselves? The fact that sometimes changing one cable in a system can make the sound pop to life is proof that cables can be a huge part of getting a system to sound right. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Hello MAW, I agree with audiotroy, I had issues with PS Audio P5, though I did not experiment with the P10 or the newest P20, maybe those are different. However, I felt that they compressed the overall feel of the sound, enough that even though I only plugged in the ancillary upstreams, it was eeough that I sold it. The Torus RM15 is a different beast. Much better than the PSA P5, I had them both at the same time in my room. I did not plug the amp/Boulder 2060 into either on a regular basis. I did try the Boulder into the Torus the other day, mostly because it was raining and lightning around my area, I noticed a loss of definition as well. So, I would suggest: 1. Power conditioning is important, mostly for non-amplifier upstreams. 2. Power cords are important, the most important I noted was gauge of wiring. I use all WEL NRG which are silver, I am not sure if the silver improves on a copper wire.... I do have the NRG10, I should try them out against each other some day. 3. Wires are important, I am sure when I upgrade my XLR to the AQ Fire, I will experience some benefit, however, definitely the speaker wire is a good way to improve the system sound, I adore my AQ WEL, I am sure they will come out with something better at AQ, but I’m not spending $30,000 on an 8ft pair for a minute improvement. Re my system cost, yes, most was acquired used. The speakers were brand new however from my local dealer. Break down of cost was: Approx 19 for the Bowers. Approx 18 for the Boulder Approx 10 for the Emm digital front end dac and transport 2 box unit/stack Approx 4 for the preamp Approx 1.5 for the Torus RM15 power unit Approx 5K for the speaker cables And I got the 4x 1m NRG WEL for free (long story) I think that breakdown of pricing is fair for the speakers. Approx 20% for the cabling is a fair budget. And an amp that is about the cost of the speakers or less is fair. DAC does a tremendous difference, maybe 20+% of the budget goes to that. My next moves will likely be: 1. Finish room treatments, need diffusors and bass traps. 2. AQ Fire someday 3. Subs x2 4. Cary SLP05 transition into Ref5se preamp 5. Try AQ Hurricane at the power conditioner to the wall. |
If you want warm Kubala Sosna cables are very warm and liquid particularly the Emotion range. If you are using Mcintosh with B&W and the system sounds bright than you have a very live room and have to address that. Our golden rule on cabling is that cabling should be 30% of a systems overall budget. So if you are using $10k amp and preamp you should be looking at $1,500-3,000k for your inteconnects and $2-3k for your speaker cabling. Older Cardas Cables are very congested sounding, the Hexlink 5C and Quadlink are not the last word in openess. We are firm believers in power conditoning, active units have way more issues than passive units, we have tested many PS Audio units and don' t like them at all, give us an Isotek, or Audio Magic any day of the week. Personally with all three of these very high end loudspeakers we would love to see you upgrade to even better components than the Rotel gear whiich is good but not as refined as the much more expensive stuff. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@joey_v thanks. You're setup looks amazing, and I'm surprised you did it for 60! Is that mostly buying used? I am debating how much to invest in cabling and power. It seems like there are mixed results on power conditioners (even the PS Audio ones), which make me think I should focus on power cables and ICs. It looks like I can get some nice Kimber or Cardas ones for around 500 each used on audiogon. Thoughts? Which made the biggest different feeding your 802s? |
Thanks, all! I used Gik Acoustics for my home theater and was happy with the customer service. That said, I think, to my ear, the room is a bit over-dampened. Also, I wasn't thrilled with the quality of the materials, as the panels seem to be covered in a pretty cheap cloth. In the room for the 802s, it has a beautiful sound, but probably needs a light touch of treatment. I don’t want to ruin the aesthetics of the room, however, as it’s a centerpiece room (my drinking room) of the house, done in a mid-century modern style. |
I agree with jimmydd. When you hear the right speaker you will know it. You know what you're accustomed to. It's happened to me only 3 times. Don't be in a hurry with that type of investment. The last time I wasn't even considering new speaker. But why I bought them is because after hearing them I couldn't get that sound out of my head for months. If not that much trouble bring your pre/amp/cables with you for a demo. That way you'll know if the electronics are right for the speakers. Best of luck |
I think control the room, and you will be happy with the 802d3. Heck I think any of those 3 and you’re still beyond 99% of the population. Re my system, it was built for the sole purpose of pushing whatever speaker I had beyond reasonable limits, it’s not typical. Because I bought smart, my total cost is approx 60 for all not including room. |