Naim introduce a turntable - the Solstice Special Edition

20K for the whole system seems ok. I wonder what the price is for each piece. TT, Aro tonearm, cart and phono. My guess this is a test run. If successful it'll become a regular product in their lineup.

The URL you provide, for all its verbiage, doesn’t bother to mention whether the new TT is a belt- drive or direct-drive. Since it’s really a Clearaudio, I’ll assume belt.

The WhatHiFi piece says: 

"The Special Edition Collection includes the belt-drive Solstice turntable; the Aro Mk2 tonearm; an Equinox MC cartridge; a Solstice Series Phono Stage; a Solstice Series Power Supply and bespoke accessories set."

It looks ridiculously overpriced but the Aro 2 should certainly draw a lot of interest.

The original Aro remains the best tonearm I heard. 

It seemed expensive at the time but even the used price never went down.

Seems like a 'private label affair' meaning they are branding other exant gears. Naim generally sounds ok...

Funnily enough, the ARO remains the worst tonearm I have owned. I couldn’t wait to get rid of it!

Using Clearaudio to build a high mass turrntable in the German style (Brinkmann, AMG etc) is a surprising choice for Naim. They have always been associated with the British school of fleet-sounding lightweight turntables - Linn (of course) and Rega mostly, which are probably the two brands most represented on the turntable threads in their own forum, but also Michell and Roksan.

The plodding sound of high mass turntables (I have owned an AMG and a Kuzma) really seems contrary to the Naim philosophy. It will be interesting to see what owners think of them.

The plodding sound of high mass turntables. That's a first. Never heard those two associated that way before. Certainly no one who has ever heard mine has said anything like that. And after 20 years, you would think someone would have noticed. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 

The plodding sound of high mass turntables (I have owned an AMG and a Kuzma) really seems contrary to the Naim philosophy

Its not the high mass, it is the design and implementation.
I have heard both the TT's you mention - the ploddy sound has nothing to do with mass, the rubber belts and weasel motors are the primary issue.

Yeah, I would have thought Naim would lean more into the Rega than Clearaudio camp. Maybe they got Clearaudios to stop and start on a dime like a top of the line Rega? Guess they‘re too much competitors for a turntable alliance to be made and us to find out.

Awful (in my opinion), like typical mainstream “high-end” nowadays.  Those designers are from the same school? 

I can see someone choosing it only  going with full Naim system.
As a standalone unit it may be good and rather highly priced.

extremely overpriced. Im sure there are better options out there for a fraction. Nonetheless, some wealthies will buy it.

Established audio brands adding a turntable to their line-up is an interesting trend which confirms that vinyl is here to stay. Not that I ever doubled that, but for many years all these big companies did. They now seem to think the vinyl market is strong enough to warrant such products. McIntosh (also by Clearaudio) and Mark Levinson (by VPI) immediately come to mind, but I’m sure there are many others.

I assume these products will mostly appeal to the ’one brand life style’ crowd, who feel they miss out if they don’t own a turntable. They don’t mind a hefty price tag, quite the contrary. Nothing wrong with that and as OEM it opens a bigger market for the turntable specialists, which is good for business and keeps the analog industry alive.

I'm pretty sure that Clearaudio builds turntables for other brands.  McIntosh is Clearaudio, is it not?  But Mac's don't reach that price point, even with a great cartridge upgrade.  

@rossb ,

"Funnily enough, the ARO remains the worst tonearm I have owned. I couldn’t wait to get rid of it!"


Although it sounded very organic on the LP12, better I thought than Linn's own Ekos, I can easily imagine it could be a nightmare to use.

Manually cueing turntables can be tricky enough with any deck, but a unipivot arm on a spring suspended turntable?

Not for everyone I guess.

The ARO was certainly an ergonomic challenge. But my real objection was that it sounded awful - thin, lightweight, no bass. Typical of the worst aspects of unipivots. I much preferred the Ekos I that preceded it and the Ekos II that replaced it.

The ARO was certainly an ergonomic challenge. But my real objection was that it sounded awful - thin, lightweight, no bass. 

Thats not my experience.
I own several arms including Aro/Dynavector/FR64S plus many others.
In a direct comparison using the same cartridge on both the Aro & Dynavector there was no lack of bass from the Aro. Dynavector was tighter in the bass, but the Aro went as low and remained tuneful ( good timing ).

I would be looking elsewhere in your system for the thin sound. What I do know of the Aro ( I've owned it for over 20 years ) is that I beleive it has a narrow operating range with regard to compliance & tracking weight. High compliant cartridges and very low compliant cartridges with long cantilevers tend to be less compatible with the Aro.

My Aro has been set up with a custom tonearm lift and on the fly VTA via thumbwheel.

The plodding sound of high mass turntables. That's a first. Never heard those two associated that way before. Certainly no one who has ever heard mine has said anything like that. And after 20 years, you would think someone would have noticed. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 

Yes, Millercarbon, high mass does result in a certain sound that one can easily label as "plodding" or "boring" or "dull". I have had the opportunity to use three different platters of drastically different mass on my restored and hot-rodded 301-the original lightweight platter, a 35 lb solid brass platter, and an alloy with copper top platter that is about ten lbs. Each produces dramatically different sound with the light OEM platter being the most lively, fast, and dynamic. 
Don't you think [realize] that the rest of us are tired of your claims that if we were only to come to your house Tekton Moabs would be seen in all their glory, that the clouds would open and angels would descend, and that the true glory of perfect home audio would make itself apparent to us mere mortals? You must be very lonely. 

Naim was always a strange company IMHO. We got some of their electronics in to sample way back when and I thought they were tinker toys, expensive tinker toys.

@rossb, no big surprise. I keep telling everyone that bass with unipivot arms is always challenged to on degree or another.

@chakster , I wouldn't call it awful. In typical Naim fashion I would call it an over priced tinker toy with a funny looking fat latter :-)

Plater 

fsonic, Your little experiment with a single idler-drive turntable and platters of different mass does not "prove" that high mass per se is the cause of a "plodding" sound, whatever that means to the author.  It only means that you prefer the lighter platter on your Garrard.  It is only information useful to you with your turntable in your system.  Furthermore you fail to mention which platter, if any of the 3, was OEM to the 301.  The 301 drive system was probably designed with a particular platter mass in mind; it would not be surprising if heavier platters would overload the drive and cause a sense of dullness or plodding or that a lighter than original platter might enliven the sound.  But I couldn't say that unless you were to reveal which was the OEM platter.  However, I hope you see my point.

fsonic, Your little experiment with a single idler-drive turntable and platters of different mass does not "prove" that high mass per se is the cause of a "plodding" sound, whatever that means to the author. It only means that you prefer the lighter platter on your Garrard. It is only information useful to you with your turntable in your system. Furthermore you fail to mention which platter, if any of the 3, was OEM to the 301. The 301 drive system was probably designed with a particular platter mass in mind; it would not be surprising if heavier platters would overload the drive and cause a sense of dullness or plodding or that a lighter than original platter might enliven the sound. But I couldn't say that unless you were to reveal which was the OEM platter. However, I hope you see my point.

And to think I used to respect your knowledge. If you knew Garrards at all, a scintilla of a speck of a flea's patoot, you would know the answer. The OEM is the lightest by far. But not my favorite. My preferred platter is the mid-weight or mid-mass if you will. Or won't. 

Should anyone question the motivation for my response to Lewm, the answer is here "Your little experiment". So f-ing condescending I could just...... Well, you get the idea. 

Should anyone question the motivation for my response to Lewm, the answer is here "Your little experiment". So f-ing condescending I could just...... Well, you get the idea.

@fsonicsmith
Well after the red mist subsides, @lewm s point is correct.
Just because you had a poor result with a heavy platter on your 301 does not mean a heavy platter cannot work with other setups.

I have built both Garrard 301’s and 401’s and in fact the heavy platter options are different for each model On my 301 I use a modified original platter, heavier platters upset the bass timing. Conversely on the 401 I built increasing the platter to a 11kg brass platter improved pitch stability.

I have both a 301 and reference high mass TT with 26kg platter.
It is the high mass turntable that has speed and coherence the Garrard 301 ( nor anything else I’ve heard apart from the DD Technics SP10mk3 but that has other issues ) cannot match.

Platter mass has to be viewed in context with the capability of the drive system and how that mass is managed in terms of stored energy.

The plodding sound of high mass turntables (I have owned an AMG and a Kuzma) really seems contrary to the Naim philosophy.

While I relate to this observation, I have had mixed experiences with high mass TTs.

The lazy sounding ones1. Verdier2. AMG Viela3. Kuzma4. Walker
Open and fast sounding ones1. Kondo Ginga
2. Micro Seiki SX-8000
3. Avid Acutus4. Hartvig
Interestingly none of the low mass TTs sound plodding 

For the record (pun) I have kept all three platters. I have a heavily modded/hot-rodded TD124 too (see my profile and system if you wish) and I have kept the OEM platter and a use a high mass one. 
This was no experiment. I bought a Lyra Etna Lambda from Steve Dobbins, a recognized 301 authority, and he recommended his mid-weight platter over my solid brass one. I do prefer his. Perhaps with a different cartridge I might prefer the very light OEM or the solid brass. 
One of the many problems with this Board and it's regulars are those who staunchly defend what they happen to have. 

I die laughing when I hear these terms applied to turntables. Plodding? Does that mean slow as in 33 1/8th or, does that mean increased amounts of wow? Maybe, it is more wow with more rumble. That would make sense on a Garrard as they are rumble machines. Lewm is quite correct. Turntables are designed with a certain mass platter in mind. Increasing the mass on an idler wheel table is going to accelerate wear on the wheel by increasing slippage on start up creating flat spots on the wheel which will invariably increase wow and flutter along with rumble. Idler wheel drives where also designed to slip "Q". A heavier platter would increase the time it takes to get up to speed. The TD124 had that interesting design with the very light platter platter cover which was lifted off the platter by that lever at the side providing very fast "Q ing" and minimizing wear on the drive. Many people do not know this but the TD 124 was a combination belt and idler drive in an attempt to isolate the platter from the motor. It was a rumble machine all the same. It was my first real turntable. With the SME on board it was a beautiful thing. 

fsonicsmith, I think you should convert to streaming only. This turntable thing is driving you nuts.

Interesting topic, platters. My preference is for a lightweight design because I believe Rega are on the right track at least where weight and mass are concerned.

On the other hand both my Rega 3 and and LP12 had heavy platters. In fact one of the most convincing vinyl demos I ever heard featured a turntable with an enormous platter.

It was almost comical in size, could have been 6-8 inches deep. It was rotated by a motor that was housed in a separate box situated several inches to one side via a fairly long thin belt.

My initial visual impression was that this could, in certain domestic situations, be a surefire recipe for disaster.

However the image it cast, via some Avantgarde Trios, was the best I have ever experienced.

Spookily good.

As my memory of the event (London Show late1990s/early 2000s?) inevitably fades, the sheer size and precision of the image being cast remains.

I die laughing when I hear these terms applied to turntables. Plodding? Does that mean slow as in 33 1/8th or, does that mean increased amounts of wow?

No. If it was such a simple thing as slowing down of the platter speed, it wouldnt have made to the market. Plodding as in transients not recovering fast enough and bleeding into notes, a time domain smear. This is quite easily heard with slow music (low tempo). It is not due to wow, it is due to energy storage in a heavy platter which doesn't have an effective drainage mechanism. A design issue. I am not a technical expert in mass and energy transfer in these devices but I have just heard enough of this nuisance, endemic to "new age" turntables. 

Most of the golden era TTs do not suffer with these issues at least. They may not be quiet but they sound like music. Probably because it came from large established audio companies who hire a good team to do the job instead of the typical "1 man" companies designing TTs today.

Fsonic, sorry if you were offended. Actually, I do not own a Garrard 301, and I have no dog in the fight about the weight of a platter on a 301. My only point was the point I was trying to make. That this is a subjective judgment, unless you have measured speed irregularity due to platter mass. For sure at some point even the big 301 motor is going to be affected by platter mass. But if Steve Dobbins was your guru, you were and are in good hands.

Mijo, not every idler is designed to “slip Q”. I do know that the TD 124 features a belt to drive its idler, and I mentioned earlier in this thread that when I auditioned the three major Vintage idler drive turn tables, I liked the TD 124 least of all, by a long shot. The comparison may not be fair, because I auditioned those turntables in systems that were not completely familiar to me otherwise.

The TD124 drives the idler with a belt between the motor and idler, and (hence?) it also sounds a lot like a belt drive btw.

The belt is very small in diameter and traverses two pulleys of roughly equal or similar diameter, in contrast to the belt on any true belt drive turntable.  So the issues might be different.  But I have no business discussing a TD124.  Never had one in my own home system.

I never stay angry at anyone for very long. The TD124 sounds very much like an idler imho. 
I don't claim for a second that my two vintage decks are much above an 8 on a scale of 1-10 as to the worst and best out there. In fact, I don't particularly like the clunky feel of engaging the drive lever on the Thorens and I grew up with the table as a teenager way back in the '70's. But overall I do love almost everything else about both decks. 
But I have gone off topic. This was about high mass platters. 

Having heard the 301, Lenco and 124 in the same systems, I felt the 124 sounds the most refined with a more belt drive-ish flow and momentum. But I agree it sounds more idler type when compared to a TD 125, (heard in the same system)

@lewm , I did own a TD124. It was my first real turntable (excluding my two Zenith bug eyed specials). You are probably right to like it least of all.
It was however, a boat anchor. You could probably drop it off a 10 story roof top and not hurt it. 
Every turntable in commercial use was used to slip que. The enemy of radio is "dead air." You had to know exactly when a song was going to start to the 1/2 second. What the DJ did was place the tonearm down on the record with the turntable off, "jockey" the record back and forth until he found the beginning of the song, hold the record in place with two fingers on the rim of the record and start up the turntable. At the exact moment he wanted the song to start he took his fingers off the rim. 
By design, the limited torque of a belt drive turntable made this maneuver impossible. You were supposed to slip the record on a felt mat but that created tons of static. Many DJs like me (campus radio station) just held the rim of the platter and let the idler do the slipping. Great way to tear up an idler drive. Direct Drive cured that problem but my DJ career would end long before it came around. The Idler drive was not designed specifically to slip que. It was simply the best way at the time to have multiple speeds on a turntable. Electronic motor drives were way off in the future. The AC synchronous motor running on line frequency was it.
All of the changers of the day used it. I'm not sure but I don't think there ever was a belt drive changer. Not enough torque to drive the changer mechanism. Direct drive put and end to idler wheel tables in commercial use. Audiophiles had drifted over to belt drive tables as the old idler wheel tables were noisy as all get out. The Thorens TD 125 was the turntable to have in the early belt drive era.

Nice one @mijostyn

My bad for not understanding what you meant by the term slip Q. If you had written it out C U E, I might have gotten the point. I thought you were referring to the fact that some early idler drive turntables, like the grease bearing Garrard 301, and possibly like some versions of TD124, had braking built into the platters so the motor had something to work against.  My response was that not every idler drive relied upon such a braking system to keep constant speed. Anyway, why are you talking about disc jockeys and record changers? I did own a TD125 for several years as my only TT. Very attractive and modern looking. Performance OK. It was very de riguer in its day. Some malign it for unreliable electronics in retrospect.

pani, define “belt drive-ish flow”.

There has always been a "simple elegance" in the design of NAIM components of the past

But I do not see anything "elegant" about this TT - simple yes - it is simply a big round lump on top of a rectangular lump - with an arm stuck on the side

And it's a "Limited Edition" - thank goodness

aesthetically -  I find it very disappointing, even boring, especially for such an expensive TT.

Just wondering if it performs better than it looks?

Still - beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Just another opinion :-)

Look at the bright side. It seems that every major name in audio wants to have a turntable in their line-up. This is a very good thing as it demonstrates how strong vinyl is. And this despite the loss of the World's only full-scale master-plate plant. The industry is finding ways to meet consumer demand for vinyl and the miniscule companies that cater to us 2% of the consumer world who obsess over quality are finding opportunities to sell expensive turntables. 
We 'mercans have very short memories (other than mijostyn evidently). Just 20 years ago Japan was almost single-handedly keeping the faith on vinyl. They were the ones continuing to manufacture cartridges, tonearms, SUT;s, and tweaking vintage decks. 

@lewm  My bad Lewm, I was too busy flying rockets through the neighbors windows to worry about spelling. Actually, I am dyslexic which was blamed on a bicycle crash when I was 6 years old. My head hit a concrete curb and I was knocked unconscious. I woke up that night with my pediatrician Hyman Alford, MD banging on my knees with a reflex hammer. My mother says I was black and blue under both eyes. It is not the usual form of dyslexia. I can read, but I have a hard time remembering what I read. If I read a name I will never remember it but if someone tells me the name or I speak the name out loud then no problem.  I can enjoy reading a novel but I won't remember anything about it. I get much more out of TV documentaries or audio books. 
Without spell check I am worthless. I did fly rockets through the neighbors windows :-)

pani, define “belt drive-ish flow”.

A more continuous sound with not so sharp start-stop transients

@pani , define "not so sharp start-stop transients? Would that mean more Wow versus flutter? Or. maybe lack of same?

Audiophiles have developed some interesting way of describing what they think they hear, descriptors that have no definable parameters like pace and timing. Pace as an example is synonymous with speed which is supposed to be 33 1/3. Does this mean if a turntable has better "pace" it is running at 33 2/3? The music has timing not the turntable. There is a reason turntables sound like they do. We may not know the reason because it is hidden, more difficult to identify but it is there. The principle determinants of a turntable's sound are the cartridge and the tonearm. After them a turntable can inject noise (rumble), it can have speed fluctuations (wow + flutter) and any part can resonate or pass on environmental vibrations which will alter the system's frequency response. Theoretically all good turntables regardless of drive should sound exactly the same, like nothing, nothing at the right speed. They do not have pace and timing and they do not soften stop-start transients, whatever that means. 

@mijostyn, if everything about music reproduction was technically measurable then 

1. Almost all TTs should more or less similar
2. We would not need anything more than a Technics SL1200 for a near perfect music reproduction.

When we "audiophiles" say pace, it is not speed. A song measuring 183 secs will still end in 183 secs but we are talking about the way notes get formed and carry the flow. The agility of the notes, the leading edge sharpness, the body and decay, and the lead up into the next note, all forms the structure and flow of music. DD, BD & ID all have a certain characteristic way to joining the notes (due to the kind of distortion the drive brings to the platter). Whether technical measurements detects anomaly or not, our ears can very easily detect these differences.

Pani, it is exactly that kind of gibberish that I find particularly non sensical.
Stop trying to make up excuses for what you think you here. Just enjoy the music and comment on whether or not you like the sound. When you come with things like, "the leading edge sharpness, the body and decay, and the lead up to the next note, all forms the structure and the flow of the music." I want to puke. The structure and flow of the music is the sold responsibility of the artist not a bunch of tubes, wires, belts and paper cones. We "audiophiles"?? Please exclude me from that group

Exactly! what the artist actually created, when it gets messed up during reproduction, is what we are talking about. You do not hear it, thats awesome. I also would like to be in your position.

It is not about what I "think" I hear. I know what I hear and I spot it without analyzing much. Whether I can express it well, is a different matter but I honestly try not to mince words. 

You don't like this mumbo jumbo? I get it. 

Btw, when you put on a Michael Jackson record on a $15k TT and don't feel like dancing to the rhythm, there is something wrong. Is it wow, flutter, da da da da, I don't know. But It happens very often in high end audio.

Thats why most audio demonstrations in shows happen on simple vocal based music, with couple of instruments in the background. 

@pani,

"Thats why most audio demonstrations in shows happen on simple vocal based music, with couple of instruments in the background."


When I went to an early presentation of the Naim Ovator s600s that's exactly the kind of music they were displaying.

Of course they would probably cite many reasons for that, high quality recordings / lack of compression etc.

Unfortunately 95% of my collection isn't like that. A good tip is to take your own music with you as most folks will oblige you. 

The only problem is if you notice the room quickly beginning to empty.

On the other hand, at the last show I attended (2019) they were quite happy to play the entire side 2 of Abbey Road.

Most of the listeners remained seated if I remember correctly.

Here's hoping it's back on later this year.