Hi @joyceulysses , and everyone,
This is a fascinating discussion, and it's one I know well. Like you, I spent years trying to get my Roon-based streaming setup to achieve the same level of authority, dark background, and soundstage depth that I was getting from my SACD/CD transport. I was convinced it was possible, but the path wasn't obvious.
After much experimentation, my breakthrough came from a network protocol called Diretta.
In simple terms, Diretta is designed to deliver audio data from the server (your Roon Core or music server) to the streamer/endpoint with perfect timing and minimal processing required by the endpoint before it hits the DAC. The result in my system was a calmness I'd not heard before. A dramatic reduction in that hard-to-define "digital glare" and a huge step toward the effortless, natural sound of my disc player. It truly transformed Roon for me, delivering a level of performance that, to my ears, competes with and even surpasses some highly-regarded commercial solutions in the $7,500 price class.
The challenge is that implementing it is currently a bit of a DIY project. For anyone interested in tackling it themselves, I've documented the entire process in a detailed guide here:
https://github.com/dsnyder0pc/rpi-for-roon/blob/main/Diretta.md
However, I know a 50+ page guide can be intimidating and not everyone has the time or desire for a project like that. Since my goal is to get more people in the US to hear what this can do and gather more feedback, I'd like to make an offer.
To help a few interested members of this community, I'm willing to build a few of these "Proof of Concept" (PoC) kits. A complete PoC kit includes:
- Raspberry Pi 4 and 5 computers in deluxe Argon ONE cases
- Two Official Raspberry Pi 45 W (5V/5A) power supplies
- USB to Ethernet Adapter
- CAT6 cable for the point-to-point link
- Argon IR Remote Control
I'm doing this purely as a hobbyist to help spread the word, not as a business. I'd only ask to be reimbursed for my cost, which is $285. That figure covers all the components, plus the sales tax and shipping I pay to acquire them. Shipping to you would be about $30 in the US.
Please note, my cost is for the hardware kit only. You will also need to purchase the necessary software licenses separately: AudioLinux for Raspberry Pi (currently $69) and the hi-res Diretta Target license (€100, which is about $110 USD).
To be perfectly clear: this is a non-commercial, community-focused offer. I can't provide a warranty or long-term support, but I do test all the components to ensure everything is working perfectly before I ship it out.
My hope is simply to make it easier for a few of you to hear the potential of this technology in your own systems and, hopefully, share your impressions—good or bad. If you're curious and want to be a "test pilot," feel free to send me a Private Message (PM) here on the forum.
If you're interested in a commercially available solution, I understand that SOtM has added Diretta Host/Target support for their sMS-200 product. Implementation generally requires you buy two of them (good for their business). Here's a link for more details:
https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/how-to-set-up-a-direct-ethernet-connection-between-diretta-host-and-target-eunhasu-v0-5-9/
Happy listening!
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Mixing and matching components has been a great source of enjoyment for audiophiles since the early days of Hi-Fi.
With the advent of really well designed digital audio receivers, I2S bus implementations, DSP and great DACs, products have emerged that provide amazing performance with remarkable simplicity.
For this we suggest you take a look at the miniDSP SHD. The SHD provides all of the above plus opens the world of proper subwoofer integration and Dirac live to the mix
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Hi All
I added the Teddy Pardo External Power Supply to my Bluesound Node
Big upgrade. I did have to void my warranty and open the unit. Pull out the node power supply and add in the card to work with the Teddy Pardo unit
Immediate sound stage improvement. Blacker background and a cleaner presentation
There are links on forums to research this power supply
I am running Node into PS Audio Directstream mkII DAC Via Coax. Files on a Bluesound Vault on NAS controlled by Bluesound App. Running through wifi
Well worth it
john
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Not sure it's entirely an answer to this query but I now use JPLAY as an alternate streaming program. SQ seems better than Roon/Nucleus. My Bartok DAC has its internal streamer, Mosaic , which is also excellent. Mosaic is best when used by UPnP to connect to Qobuz Connect, a new feature at Mosaic. The differences are small but if you are fussy about things. Nice to have alternatives.
Have fun...
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Great to hear. I agree with upgrading your CD player. I moved from a Sony 300 carousel to a Rotel that’s in the same lineup as my amp and preamp. It definitely made a difference including using the XLR connection from the player to the preamp. Sounded better right from the opening of Baba O’Riley. I now burn my CDs into my Innuos MK3 streamer so I use the USB connection. It sounds as good as the CD player.
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@joyceulysses
Yeah!!! There are soo many wonderful options out there when it comes to separates, or Streaming DAC's on the market today. Me, personally, I was just as impressed with the Ayre Streaming DAC as I was with the DCS, so I went with the better value product, and I've never been happier!!! Happy listening.
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@joyceulysses I had a Node before my Innuos. My son has it now. I've run Qobuz on a tablet. My son runs Qobuz on his phone. I've also used Audivarna on a laptop and used the streamer in my dac. In my system, Audivarna sounded better than Roon. It could be that I didn't have things optimized correctly. Idk. I have read that Roon requires a lot of computing power to sound it's best. I don't have that. I loved the interface and wanted it to work, but in my system, it sounded flatter than the other options.
I mentioned it because it should be easy to put Qobuz or Amazon on your phone or a tablet. You don't need Qobuz connect.
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@kennymacc I haven't listened to dCS Bartok but I listened to dCS Lina which I believe uses similar core technology (Ring DAC) and is also a integrated Streaming DAC. To me it sounds amazing; extremely revealing with superb clarity. It is not a physically huge device and I am impressed of what it can do within its size.
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@joyceulysses
Before opting for a Streaming DAC configuration, I did do extensive research and listening tests, and I personally came to the conclusion that implementation was the key. I found both the Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty Streaming DAC, and the DCS Bartok Streaming DAC's to be so incredibly impressive sounding, they made me ask myself, why is there a need to go with separates? In either case, at their price points, I don't know how cost effective the Ayre or DCS would be to most audiophiles LOL!!! Happy listening.
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@sls883
As previously stated, every audiophile's doing their own thing. What works for one, may not be the best option for others. It's all good. Happy listening.
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@kennymacc Thanks for the recommendation! Do you find integrated streaming DAC more cost effective?
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@sls883 Not yet -- I almost have to use Roon because of my large local album collection in my NAS. Bluesound Node is terrible for still not yet support Qobuz Connect. Do you find Qobuz Connect superior to Roon? What is the difference?
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@ghdprentice
Even after approx. four years of having a dedicated music streaming audio system, to this very day, I'm still in total awe, every time I pick up my trusty iPad Roon remote, at the sheer brilliance, of the absolutely unreal technology, that is audiophile caliber music streaming. Happy listening.
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Have you tried streaming without Roon? If you use Qobuz, for example, stream from their service directly without Roon. I tried Roon and I didn't like the sound with my gear. My system is not optimized for Roon.
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@joyceulysses
The Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty streaming DAC was an absolute game changer for me, and forever changed the way I listen to music!!! In the wonderful world of high-end audio, everyone's doing their own thing. For me, streaming turned out to be pure gold, but it took some time, research, and effort to finally get it right. Happy litening.
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I have a Denon DVD A-110 SACD player which sounds amazing thru my McIntosh amp. I cannot imagine an external dac making an improvement..The 24 but remastered redbooks are good the new SHM CD's better and the SACD's optimal.
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This is another of those questions where the only wrong answer is an absolute statement of what is best-or not. I don't find much difference in my streaming set up and CDs-I think its more dependent on the mastering of the track or album. So, the convenience and variety of streaming works very well for me.
On the other hand, I have friends who say their CDs sound significantly better than any streaming set up they have heard. Who is wrong? Nobody-its a subjective thing and the only way you will know is listen for yourself. I can safely make a definitive statement about what I like-but not what you might like.
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I have to concur with Ghdprenice. I purchased an older N100 to try streaming with an Aurender. I can honestly say the sound exceeded my expectations. I no longer am interested in physical media. The streamer is all that I want to listen to for the ease of operation and sound quality. I have posted my PS Audio SACD transport for sale and plan on purchasing a N200 or N20.
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@joyceulysses
I have a BS Node N130 and I bought a Teddy Pardo LPS for it and it made a very nice improvement in the sound.
My two cents.
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@ghdprentice Thank you. I just decided to go for a used MSB Discrete with Renderer V2. I will likely move my Ideon combo to a future headphone chain if my life will need that. Even in that case, I will still do some streamer upgrades over the Bluesound Node. My experience with the PST transport makes me realize that the entry-level Ideon DAC sounds amazing and certainly punches above its price, and that it my current streamer is a bottle neck. Aurrender sounds like a great option and I will certainly be looking for it on used market if I decide to go for that path.
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I use an Aurrender N100H with an Ayre QB-9 20 DAC for my headphone system. My virtual systems are posted under my UserID.
I use an Arrender W20SE and Audio Research REF CD9se for my main system. I have also tried other streamers and DACS like dCS, Grimm, Berkeley.
I recommend Aurrender, even if used. Outstanding sound. I have tried others in lower tiers and have not found them as good. The DAC is no less important and I have found tends to have a greater impact on tonal balance, the streamer on detail. fullness and noise.
There are lots of good DACs available. I assume you are in the market for a less expensive ones than I have. Just be careful to make sure it is musical. Comparing sonic characteristics using AI is a great way to help you zero in on one. You’ll are unlikely to be captivated by the sound if the components are over detailed and analytical sounding... it is the midrange warmth that conveys to emotional content.
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@kennymacc
+1
I have found the key is streaming done right. I used to channel surf when the sound quality wasn't there. Then, when I achieved great sound... each album was captivating... and my desire to change completely disappeared.
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I, too, am one of those who, after extensive comparisons, went to a streaming music exclusively audio system. Oh, I still have all my old CD, DVD Audio, HDCD, and SACD discs sitting on the shelf collecting dust, but I no longer play any of them (just looking at them harkens me back to my youth). Why? Because I discovered that streaming, done right, at a high level, either matched, or trumped (mostly), the sound quality of my old physical media, whether it be via a transport/DAC combo, or a stand alone player. I even stopped ripping CD's and just stream them, except for those that aren't available on Qobuz. In over 30 years in the hobby, I've never been happier!!! Happy listening.
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@ghdprentice I agree with most of what you said. Streaming is certainly my primary chain which I spend most of my time with. I am planning upgrade my DAC to a MSB Discrete or Premier with Renderer V2 and I2S module so that SACD playback can be unlocked and I will get a much better streaming experience.
On the other hand, I still play CD for nostalgia, collection habit, and fun. I do see a strong value in CD playback, especially for classical music. I get too easily distracted when streaming! And the lack of booklet for most albums is plainly annoying. Some combination of physical and non-physical playback is ideal!
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@cleeds I am pretty sure, at least the drive that companies like dCS, PS Audio, Wadax, etc are using.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/d-m-will-end-production-m3-optical-transport-at-the-end-of-july-2024.38956/
I am not sure about their other product lines, but it does have significant impact on those independent transports. PS Audio's Paul McGowan also confirmed that their new PMG Signature SACD Transport will only have a few hundreds of supply due to the end of production. Hopefully they can figure something out or some other manufacturers (Luxman, Esoteric, for example) would be able to fill the gap. (I have no clue about that though.)
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Or you can get a good streamer and DAC and have millions of albums at your finger tips that sound the same or better than the physical media. Bluesound is very good sounding for the money but is in the bottom tier of the budget streamers. I own one.
CD Players and SACDs are physical transports, streaming the signal to an internal DAC. The quality of the output of the box is dependent on the performance of its internal components.
Good quality streamers cashe the bits coming in from the network, isolate from noise and pass on to a DAC.
Which ever of these are of better quality will sound better. My CD, stored files, and vinyl all sound the same (outstanding), and I have access to millions of albums. So, it is worth the effort to put together a streamer and DAC that sounds as good or better than a physical media player. Saves money and storage space. I got rid of all my CDs.
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joyceulysses
Marantz, which supplies SACD drives for PS Audio transport unites, ceased their SACD drive production ...
Are you sure? Marantz lists multiple SACD players on its website and the SACDM-3 transport mechanism looks like a recent introduction.
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@elliottbnewcombjr You are right... I can see this happening... And thanks for the advice on laser age. I think mine is fine as the original owner used it for ~3 years, but one thing worrisome is that Marantz, which supplies SACD drives for PS Audio transport unites, ceased their SACD drive production. I think PS Audio stated that they have good inventory for repair and replacement though.
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Yes, once you get a great sounding player, you not only re-discover your cds and sacds, you might find yourself buying used CDs and used SACDs. That’s what happened to me after I took advice here and got a Sony xa5400es SACD player.
lasers weaken with use, so if buying used, especially something as old as mine, try to ascertain how much use, and see if replacement lasers are stilll available.
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@rumblestrip Thanks for the advice! I figured it must be power/electronic noise that is bottlenecking the performance.
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One other thing you can try with your Node is to replace the power supply. Several options out there, everyone who has done so says it's a significant upgrade.
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Makes sense! If I end up moving Ideon components to the second chain I will probably still replace the Node.
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The Node really isn’t up to the level of your Ideon components, and a better streamer with a linear power supply would up your streaming performance. Even just adding a LPS to the Node would help a bit.
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