WCSS- isn’t the luxman amp you has right around 10k used?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
| Post removed |
..
@Whitecamaross
. Maybe these ?. https://www.usatubeaudio.com/product/amplification/ayon-orthos-xs/ ......................................Review...........http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-451&lang=en |
I would also throw the Luxman M700 or 900 which can had for $5k and $10k on the used market. I was quoted those prices by a dealer with a couple used anyway..... The H30 was on my list when I got my Plinius and I'm still curious how that would sound with my tradition round driver 801N's. I 'm also interested in Modwright 150SE in mono blocks...Has anyone tried these, thoughts? |
@viber6 I mentioned a power cord to help with the weight of the Emotiva’s presentation, since I’m coming from a 7.1 home theater perspective. I agree with you for 2 channel setups - it would be easy enough (and cheap enough and simple enough) to check out the EQ. For 7 channels, however, It’s much easier and cleaner (in my mind) to do one power cord for a 7 channel amp than it is to have four eq’s, + four more power cords, etc. You might think differently, and that’s OK. @mrdecibel You told someone to not bring in fuse suggestions and to let WC complete his amp journey. The only problem is that the journey has already been at least 2+ years (that we know about) and may well continue for a good long time. Fuses are cheap/easy enough to try. I honestly think it should be WC’s decision. Dave |
@whitecamaross So glad to read of your success and happiness with the current combo of gear. It REALLY is all about synergy. Apparently the D'Agostino just didn't pair so well with the Logans. And that is OK. I've many times heard the Momentum gear with it's matching preamp and with the ARC Ref 10 pre. Both very satisfying. Also heard the new Progression stereo amp/pre amp combo on Sasha 2s a few times and it was very very nice. But for those saying that the DAG is warm and rolled off, that is not correct. It indeed has some warmth to it, but is very high resolution and paired with the right speaker, very very good. Beautiful extension at both ends of the frequency range and ultimately pristine in it's clarity and presentation. I don't own DAG but know it to be a very beautiful option. Again, when the DAG stuff is paired with the right speaker and other components, it is just a pleasure. I've seen the integrated WC has, but can't remember hearing it in a meaningful way. Keep rockin' WC...………. |
Yes, Dag has awesome clarity with soft dome and beryllium tweeters. It’s incredible when paired properly. I think that panels just place different demands on amplifiers and are trickier to make them sound awesome. If I had Wilson audio right now, I bet the Dag integrated would be mind blowing. If I ever go back to Wilson audios (Alexx maybe?) then Dag will be in the mix for sure. For now and with my current speakers , it doesn’t mate as good as arc/ Plinius does. The thing here is that people here associate this lack of compatibility as if something is garbage or no good. That’s just not the case guys. I remember hearing some Alexia 2s with mark leviskon 536 Monos which I owned and it was soooo Boring. It was the biggest disappointment for me and next thing you know I bought Sasha 2s and I was amazed at the dynamics and clarity I had. This is system matching people. |
Yes David Ten, Thank you for making it clear to all, but especially myself, that I suppose I am sounding a bit like viber. Someone had to do it, as you are saying it to me. I will easily back off the attitude, but I will continue my share my own knowledge. Would that be ok ? Zaks. Here is an example. I have ten amplifiers I am rotating, keeping them in my system, active, for as short term or long term, to determine if I like it. If I find an amp so so, I have no interst in a fuse. The fuse will not impact that amp "enough " to allow me to like it ( not as much as a power cord ). All I am saying. Thinking of WC here. Hell, why stop at the amplifier, and change every fuse through out his system. All I am saying. I believe in, and use upgraded fuses. Out of the winner of the Ten (amps, not David ), this the It is a final tweak in a system. Important, but comes later in a system set up. This is imo, and ime. Thank you, Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, you have to be very careful about room treatment. Your wife so far is understanding in your hobby. However, some room treatments are seriously butt ugly and she may not go for it. WAF would seriously come into play here. Some that the stuff out there is really bad looking Also, contrary to what some have written, there are better speakers out there than the Neoliths. I really like the Neoliths so don't get me wrong. But, its like I tell my track and field athletes. There is always someone out there that is faster, stronger, can jump higher, further than you. So don't get the big head. Just be the best you can be and that is all. Pre-amp/amp compatibility is important. Amp/speaker compatibility is equally important. This is why demo'ing one change at a time is really important. Switching out several pieces means you can't tell which piece is making the difference. I would imagine that many of the amps that WC has tried would sound absolutely wonderful with the REF 10 and Neoliths. For people that aren't in the amp of the month club, some of us are simply (funny) trying to get "there" with equipment/sound reproduction. some people just like electronics and playing around. Nothing wrong with that either. WC is on a different kind of journey. more power to him. But be careful, a divorce is near if you start playing with room treatment without your wife's buy-in. I think equipment looks and styling has come a long way. The DAG equipment is just beautiful to me. And by-the-way, the DAG separates would seriously outperform the DAG integrated. no question. But, the room treatment stuff, still has a long way to go as far as looks are concerned. If you are "there" with the speakers, then fine. but, have you heard Vandersteen 7's? oh boy. Seriously expensive tho. enjoy |
@viber6 You wrote " ron17, what's wrong with YOU that you cannot read my reasoned statements with much comprehension? Do YOU like spending money on overpriced back breaking amps that are not LIKELY to work out, especially since his Plinius has demolished the expensive Dag?" ..... I am fully capable of comprehending your statements it's just that they don't make since to me. The fact that the Plinius amp is a better sonic match with WCSS' current speaker and room is one thing but to say the Plinius "demolished" the Dag is not a reasoned statement. If WCSS wants to spend big money on "back breaking amps" let him, it's his thread and he'll do what he wants. Why go on and on telling him he's making a mistake and forcing your opinions on him and others? I think he's having fun going through a lot of gear (expensive and reasonably priced) and it's not about finding the perfect system for him...it's more the journey that excites him. So why keep hounding him to try antiquated analog EQ units and less expensive amps etc..... Why not just enjoy the ride, contribute a little and stop force feeding your opinions on everyone. Double and triple posting paragraph after paragraph in a row of the same thing is what's turned a lot of people against you. You also wrote "Where is YOUR empathy and common sense? What is your contribution in the area of searching for great quality amps at reasonable prices, which most people here are interested in?" ...... Well I do contribute. I've given my views on speaker/room integration, my use and experience with digital EQ, different sonic characteristics of amps I've owned and the benefits I've attained by using a professional to help set-up speakers and gear. The difference between you and me is I don't beat people over the head with my views or opinions. Also I'm not so sure that most people that read this thread are just looking for "great quality amps at reasonable prices". I think a lot of people are living vicariously through WCSS. Reading about gear that they will never be able to own written by a normal tell-it-like-it-is guy. |
people are living vicariously through WC here. This is really interesting and most of us wish we could be in the room with him listening to the multiple pieces. Even bringing over our own to use would be fun. Actually, that would be great. however, I have appreciated everyone's input on this forum. Some opinions are quite forceful, but that does not negate the importance or truthfulness. before one introduces EQ into a system, there must be a reason for doing so. As WC has discovered, proper speaker setup and positioning with the Neoliths was very important. Simply introducing EQ at the beginning would not have been prudent. he had to play with the speakers themselves and positioning in the room before even thinking about EQ. EQ is the very last thing you want to try. But, as I said, you have to know your room's and/or equipment's limitations and issues first. EQ may fix a problem with a particular piece of equipment failings. However, the minute you take that piece out (as WC often does), then the EQ is now hurting the system/room, not helping. For example, if you had older Krell amps that were seriously bright to me, and added EQ to tone that down a bit. Removing the Krell amps and replacing them with say, Atmosphere amps would produce an all together different sound and with the EQ would be terrible, if still set to fix the Krell short comings. If, on the other hand, the EQ was there to "fix" hearing deficiencies of the listener, then, well, you are going to keep it in the system. It sounds to me that WC has found the optimal positioning of the Neoliths and that the DAG integrated isn't the best in this configuration. I've heard the DAG separates with the Neoliths and I can tell you there won't be an issue with those. Same for the Audio Research REF 250SE amps and many others. I appreciate Viber6's input. In my case, my room needs more attention. I've added bass traps and that helped much. The problem with room correction devices is most times they are hit or miss. Like a phono cartridge, you can't try it at home and return it if it didn't work. Room correction devices really require professionals to come it and seriously measure the room responses and recommend the proper devices to fix the peaks and valleys. That in and of itself is expensive and takes time. Room correction is hard. I'm waiting for a friend of WC to bring a nice turntable/cartridge/arm/phono stage over and blow his mind. enjoy |
@minorl I agree with you that EQ should be introduced as a last resort only after proper speaker placement has been achieved. I also think modern digital EQ units are much more transparent and effective than older analog units. Also room treatments and/or hiring a professional to help with achieving a more pleasing sound can be expensive but to spend 5-10K doing so on a system costing well over 150K doesn't sound excessive to me. Of course it depends on your goals and more importantly your budget! |
Lyngdorf Room Correction is not difficult. If you can read and follow directions, then you can do it ! It works as well or better than room treatments. With room treatments ,there is a lot of trial and error and measuring ,or data collection. After interpreting or calculating the data, then applying the material for correction,and re-collecting data . or re-measuring to see where you are . With Lyngdorf it is all done quite easily and I can assure you that it works very well. Check out the Lyngdorf thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-has-luv-for-the-lyngdorf-2170-and-is-thinking-about-the-3400 |
thezaks, Recaeling your comment about the thin quality of the Emotiva, I can't remember whether you meant for 2 channel or 7.1 HT. Although I have no experience with quality HT, I can say that playing a mono recording through 2 stereo speakers gives a fuller quality than through 1 speaker in true mono. Obviously the sound field is greater with more speakers, and that contributes to more fullness or weight. So I suspect that the Emotiva for only 2 channels will sound thinner than an Emotiva for many more HT channels. But any amp will show the same differences. Maybe you already did this, but the Emotiva for 2 channel should be compared to another amp for 2 channel. WC long ago noted that for 5 channels, it is better to get a stereo amp plus a 3 channel amp, rather than a single 5 channel amp. One reason is the shared power supply dilutes the power to each channel, so a stereo amp at 300W/ch may only have 200W/ch each for 5-7 channels. Regarding power cords, the flagship SAE 2 HP stereo amp uses two 20A power cords, so SAE thinks that for ultimate performance, this is better than a single power cord for both channels, the way most stereo amps are configured. This would mimic the idea of mono amps, but just mounted on the same chassis. |
thezaks, OK, I re-read your post on the last page, and t realize that you found the Emotiva thin for HT. I don't know if you listened to it in stereo, comparing another stereo amp, and came to the same conclusion. Either way, power cord matching or EQ can be employed. I read a little on Emotiva's own forum that the new Reference might be fuller with the even higher power. We agree that Emotiva makes excellent amps, and not just for the price. |
| Post removed |
@viber6 Yes, I did try the Emotiva in two channel, as I do all of my amps. I also noted the little bit of thinning in 2 channel, but I was also amazed at how good it sounded. Good to know that the Reference might be fuller sounding. I also agree with the logic of having a 2 or 3 channel amp for the L/R and maybe center channel, and then another amp for the surrounds and maybe center channel. I’ve had that in the past with Cary and Pass Lab products. I’ve also had Cary and Pass Labs preamps for two channel and utilized the unity gain for HT. It’s probably the best way to go for sure. Once kids came along, I realized I don’t have time for 2 channel, so HT became the priority. If I play music, I play it 7.1. So, I wanted a really decent 7.1 system. The Theta Casablanca IV with Xtreme 3 DACs works very well for this scenario, after having gone through 5-10 processors. And, I’ve been going through 7 channel amps as well. I now have one that is making me happy and is allowing me to move on to cables, now that I have some good components. I actually agree with mrdecibel - I would not want to try a fuse upgrade until I found the amp that I liked. However, others might choose to do differently. Dave |
Ok so I have indulged on 6 shots of tequila in the last hour so here are my raw and naked comments about different things: 1. I don’t believe I’m any better than anyone just because I own Neoliths. I respect your own set ups and what you are able to do with your budgets. I didn’t always have the budget for Neoliths when I started this journey. I started with Polk audio LSi speakers. 2. I am believer we all have a certain type of flavor we strive for. Some like their coffee dark and others with cream. I present my own opinions based on what I’ve heard as I went up the ladder. 3. I don’t believe that the more money you spend the better it gets each time. That said, with a larger budget you do open a door that allows you to hear what else can be had from those expensive tier groups. 4. I wish you all could come over to my home and I can make you all drinks so we can play whatever music you all want so we can have a discussion about what my system has or lacks. I don’t take anything personal by any means. 5. I want to try many more amps in 2019 so I can become a pioneer with the Neolith. I want to do something that nobody else has done with these speakers and trust me if I fail, I’ll report it here. 6. I am enjoying this journey because each time I make an improvement I feel as if I rediscover my music all over again 7. I don’t give a D@mn about magazines and their reviews. When I read them I use them to only give me a high level view of the product. 8. I find those 5 page long reviews from magazines boring and confusing. If I were to review gear for a living, I’d give you the truth and meat and potatoes from the get go. One page with a few paragraphs and just get my point across. Haven’t you all noticed how magazines never really say if a product is a disappointment? The world wants information to move faster an faster. We don’t have time to watch news and sit between commercials anymore. The average YouTube video is 4 minutes long because that’s what people want to spend watching a YouTube video. Anything longer is a waste and you lose your audience. 9. My ultimate journey is becoming more of system matching. I believe some amplifiers are indeed just garbage but some others are actually great pieces that just need the matching pieces to create a beautiful presentation. 10. You all are part of my journey as much as I am. Whether it is a power cable, a set of spikes or even a carpet recommendation, I think it is all great of throwing ideas in the mix for present or future consideration. 11. Lastly and I want to be sure that i convey this: I don’t want to help any amp or preamp with fuses or eq or anything extra. I want to use the product exactly as it was designed to be used. I can certainly use the power cords I own on everything I buy if I feel it improves anything at all but that’s not always the case. Sometimes I stick to their own stock powercords and let them sink or swim. Remember, you all add an ounce or two of life to this thread. I read every single thing you all write here even if I don’t replay to everyone. Nothing goes unnoticed. As I learn here, I want you all to learn too so that you don’t have to buy 309 amplifiers like i have bought in the past few years. (I have a spreadsheet). |
@whitecamaross Nice post above. I want to thank you on something you wrote above on speaker placement. For the past 2 weeks, I have been moving my speakers all over the place in my office trying to get the imaging correct when I sit at my desk slightly to one side of center. Your post was a lightbulb moment on placement and I got the sound almost perfect now. |
Whitecamaross, I just like to say a big thank you for sharing your experiences of your journey towards your preferred audio system. In a way you are for me a pioneer hunter of high end audio sharing your views without any conflict of interest issues as oppose to professional reviewers, which makes your opinions a lot more interesting and valid. |
WC, +10 for your enthusiasm and helpful comments. Although I have been verbose, I try to concentrate all my thoughts into as few words as I can, but just want to clarify as best as I can, unlike those 5+ pages of effusive magazine reviews which include musings on the neighborhood, girlfriend, etc. They degenerate into comic books instead of taking a real stand, telling it like it is the way we do. |
minorl, I think we agree about priorities, although every effort makes a difference. First, optimized speaker placement. Sure, the Neo is more open with greater breathing room behind it. But I think that WC had used the ML Montis, 13A, 15A and CLX at the 1-2 foot distance, although in those days he might not have said so, and I don't remember his earliest pages. So he tried the Neo at this usual position. They were lacking with that tight position. So I think he found that the HF were less prominent in the Neo than from the other ML stats he tried. Then the treble boost in the Dag amazed him by the improvement. All those stats benefit from greater breathing room, although he may never have tried the other stats that way. EQ won't cure everything. It won't make a sterile SS amp sound like a warm tube amp. But it can tailor the tonal balance to your liking, whether you are hearing deficient, or if you have trouble deciding between 2 amps where there is a mixed bag of good and bad things about each. Different EQ settings helped me appreciate the overall advantages of the Mytek compared to my Bryston. Honestly, many excellent amps are converging to have fairly close sound quality, but EQ carefully done can make a big difference. Maybe the Merrill Element amps will be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I still anticipate using EQ, probably at different settings. And no speaker sounds quite like live music, so EQ can help you get closer to what you want. |
@Viber6, I do like analog EQ a lot better than digital. Spent over 40 years in the audiophile car stereo scene. Talk about some systems needing EQ, that's an understatement. I still found that using 2 analog EQs (one for front, and one for back speakers) yielded a much more full sounding system when dialed in. Have used Pioneer’s head unit system with microphone very many times.... and the result did not hold a candle to dedicated analog EQs. I have built many car stereo systems without EQ, but that was just luck to get the sound perfect. It all comes down to what I find is digital degradation in that domain. If your system is already full sounding, then allowing for some minor adjustments with an analog EQ...... you retain the full sound and don’t destroy it by using EQ. I would easily say that you could parlay that to 2 channel home stereo, and say that the minor adjustments are better served with an analog EQ. Only if needed. So there it is...... |
WC, Awesome commentary, is what I have to say. 6 shots of tequila, and I would likely not make it to the keyboard ( unlike 30 years ago ). Just so you know, I feel like I know many of you through posting and communicating here. I have no ill feelings towards anyone ( yes viber, even you ). And the reason : This is a journey, for all of us, about achieving great sound from our systems, so we can enjoy our passionate hobby of listening to music. The diversity amongst all of us is far and wide, while at the same time, similar and near. viber,,,,nice post...….WC, I would love to hear your system. To everyone, Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, if all 4 connections on the Neo have the same wire and length going to them, I would think, both the subs and the panels, will perform better. Substantially. I obviously believe in bi wiring. A step up from that would be to passively biamp the Neos. Vertical or Horizontal. Vertical, in my experience, is superior in all sq parameters. And, works best if the amps are identical stereo or 4 identical monos. Horizontal, both amps can be different, but gain and sensitivity issues would need to be worked out. Some folks I know prefer horizontal bi amping ( you would need to listen to it both ways to determine your preference ). I know I am getting carried away, but if you like the bi wiring alot, you can get a duplicate Plinius. Looking forward to your findings with the bi wiring. Enjoy ! MrD. |
| Post removed |
bigddesign3, Thanks for your comments about EQ in car audio systems. It seems like you found digital EQ to be a problem in the bass. What about your experience for EQ in HF? My ordianry stock car radios have benefitted enormously from simple treble boost, to get the dull sound to have much more life. But this leads to a more general discussion of analog vs digital electronics of which EQ is a part. I don't know why digital would have a problem in the bass, where LF presents much less a computational problem. CD's in the early 80's showed obvious digititis, raucous sounds mainly in HF By the 90's, converters were much better, so CD's became enjoyable. If today's digital is so great, why isn't the SOTA just using digital for preamps, power amps. Class D amps are not digital. I haven't heard about any audiophile electronics in the digital domain, so we are still living in an analog world. We could keep the chain pure digital, up to the power amp output which would require merely a DAC to then drive the speaker. 24 or more bits could provide nough resolution at very low volume levels. Why not? Can anyone help answer these questions, particularly technical people like bill_k, minorl, ron17? |
WC,If you are considering DCS Vicaldi or MSB Select ll type of DAC, for same level au performance and much cheaper i would also look at Totaldac d1-Twelve mk2, Aries Cerat Kassandra Signature or Lampizator Pacific Dac.I personally preferred the 3 later ones over the Vivaldi and Select ll.Just my 2 cents. |
@viber6 I was introduced to digital EQ 15 years ago by a company called TacT Audio. This is a Stereophile review of the digital equalizer/preamp I bought and used for several years. https://www.stereophile.com/roomtreatments/437/index.html After that unit I bought and used a Classe Sigma SSP mk2 pre/pro. Classe has implemented digital EQ for more than a decade in their home theater processor/preamps with great success. I became friends with a tech at Classe who taught me how to measure my room then implement the filters (frequency, gain and Q width). He was a fellow musician who had built his own SOTA recording studio. He also suggested when using digital EQ in a high-end 2 channel music system to (1) only use it @ 300hz and below. (2) only attenuate never boost. I used their digital EQ in conjunction with ASC tube traps to greatly improve the excessive bass problem I had in my room. A couple of years ago I wanted to upgrade my preamp but still wanted to be able to use EQ (in the digital domain). I bought a Mola Mola Makua (preamp/DAC) from Bill Parish with GTT Audio. Bill is one of the most knowledgeable up to date hi-end retailers I've had the pleasure of dealing with. He told me he had used Roon's digital EQ and found it to be completely transparent and non-degrading to the music signal. I have an Innous Zenith mk2 SE music server that I use with Roon and their digital EQ and absolutely love it. I use it sparingly in conjunction with ASC tube traps. bigddesign3 sounds like an expert in the car stereo field and prefers analog EQ. I have no experience with car/stereo systems and would totally trust his judgement on that one. I really think hi-end audio is heading to an all digital format....like it or not! I'm not ready to go all digital yet but know people who swear by it. |
ron17. I agree, from the flat position, attenuate, not boost. A good buddy of mine, who is a fine musician with a recording set up, does just that with his eq. I believe it keeps the noise down as well. I did try this with my Rane, and although I found it to better attenuating, I still decided on not using the eq ( as mentioned prior ). Enjoy MrD. |