Thank You- riaa.
does this gentleman have a listening room? Happy Listening!
does this gentleman have a listening room? Happy Listening!
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I had all pliniuses except SA-Ref. Even so being very good, the SB 301 mk1 I had, drove SF Anniversario. Yes it had great bass, yes it had terrific midrange, but highs were grainy and most important to me - lack of instrument separation in compare with my Pass int-250.8 integrated. But looks like Mk2 version of Sb-301 is much better if it can beat Pass 350.8. I know Vince, great guy, not sure if he still sells pliniuses, since he so involved with msb. In US , I can strongly recommend Eric Love from audio surroundings. He sell plinius brand. I cant wait until Witecamaross will get a chance to listen to Plunus SA-REF. Vince told me that its in league of its own. |
Hi, and thanks for the feedback about the sb301mk1. I certainly feel that this amp is an amp you must keep on at all times in order to sound best. I also wanted to share with you all that if you remember above, i loved the simaudio 860a. I found it very amazing with a deep and wide soundstage. Anyhow, i have decided to purchase the 870a simaudio amp which is the top of the line and most expensive ($22k) simaudio stereo amp there is. It is dual mono design (2 transformers) and it is supposed to be like the 860a but on steroids. I am also working on a deal on a Dan D'agostino momentum stereo amplifier. This could potentially mean 5 amplifiers in my living room and the ability to do true comparison tests. For the record, i do not use any sort of power conditioners. All my amps get plugged into the wall directly. We shall see what happens, but what i can certainly report on is that my 350.8 disappointed me with my sonus fabers. I actually felt that the mark levinsons 536s did a better job. |
@whitecamaross and others: What amp would you recommend for 5K or less, new or used? Not looking for a long list. Just your top recommendation at this price level. Speaker is efficient, so I don't need mega power. I prefer Class A or Class A/B. Solid State is also preferable. My current amp is the Spread Spectrum Technologies Son of Ampzilla Mk 2. Top contender is the Pass XA30.8 Thanks. |
The GS150 is sonically identical to the REf150se, same topology and parts, just different layout and casework/meters. I got that info right from the source. I just unboxed my brand new Ref150se last night. Though it looks a bit plain in the pics over the web, in person it's very handsome in an understated way-bigger than I thought too. Coupled with the looks of the Ref 6 they should look great together (and sound great together). I am waiting for my new Ref 6 to come in from ARC. |
Hi guys, i think it’s time I share a few things that some people don’t seem to understand. I’ve learned most of this due to the vast experience I have with power amps. I don’t go by reviews from magazines which don’t really tell you the full story. I go by my experience and me actually owning the equipment. With that said, here we go: 1. Speakers: who said you need to buy amplifiers with the same or less power than what your speakers can handle ? That’s a stupid mistake. What blows up speakers for the most part is DISTORTION NOT EXCESS CLEAN POWER. If you own a speaker that hands 300 watts and you select an amp that has 150 watts per channel or a second amp with 500 watts per channel, chances are higher that the amp with 150 watts is going to damage the speakers faster than if you were to feed the speakers with more clean power than what they can handle. The less powerful amp will clip and begin to introduce distortion way before the other amp is. This distortion is the prime reason why the speaker would begin to kill its drivers. BUYING AMPS WITH MORE POWER THAN WHAT THE SPEAKERS CAN HANDLE IS NOT A BAD THING!!! It’s actually a good thing ! 2. Listening at low volume vs high volume: it has been brought to my attention that some of you listen at low volume levels. Please keep in mind that each amp sounds very different at different output levels. Some amps only hit their stride at moderate volume and others hit their stride at low and moderate levels. You need to figure out with an actual sound decibel meter how loud you listen on average and then take this into account when you select an amp. I’ve owned amps that fell apart at low volumes and only came to life when you put the pedal to the metal. Some amps sound thin at low volume. Some sound good at low volumes. Choose amplification wisely. 3. AMPLIFIERS SOUND BEST WHEN CONNECTED STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL: yes!!!!!! This is a true fact. Amps seem to open up more when they have full control of the available electricity. I have tested this theory many times and they always sounded best to me when connected into the outlet. |
whitecamaross AMPLIFIERS SOUND BEST WHEN CONNECTED STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL:Shouting is not necessary. Your claim may be a "true fact" in your system, but the "true fact" isn’t universal, and certainly isn’t what sounds best in my system. |
Fsonicsmith if you roll KT150s in your Ref150se it will sound like the GS 150!kw6, the Ref150se was designed and built around the KT150. It comes with KT150's. As I mentioned earlier in this long thread, I contacted ARC and asked if there was any sonic difference between the Ref 150se and GS150 and the response was that they are sonically identical. Whitecamaross says he was told the GS150 is going to be discontinued. If this is true, one explanation is that most AR buyers are going to do a little research (pun) and can't justify $5000 for meters, easier biasing, and nicer casework. |
ok guys... i couldn’t resist so i pulled the plug on the audio research gs150 today. i have had it playing for about 2 hours and here are my brief impressions: 1. Gobbs of detail. Layer of detail on top of detail. Think of it as ordering your favorite alcoholic drink, but add an extra shot of liquor. in other words, twice as much detail as before. 2. i don’t recognize my music. It feels as if each song now sounds different in a good way. Crazy separation and background noises that i didnt hear before. 3. i do not have to turn it up to make the music come alive. I hear every nuance, detail, and particle of each song at low volume. 4. FAR, BUT FAR FAR FAAAAAAAAR BETTER match than the pass labs 350.8 is with my sonus faber cremonese. It is not even close in terms of detail. I can’t believe how "laid back" my 350.8 sounds when compared to the GS150. Audio Research and Sonus Faber synergy is UNDENIABLE. Those are my initial impressions. More to come later this week! |
So crazy to me whitecamaross that you've stayed away from good tube amplification for so long. I can't remember if your preamp is the Ref 5se or 6 (or other), but as good as the GS150 is, the Ref 6 is reported by most in the know to be even better. I ordered my Ref 6 a month ago but thanks to summer break and ARC's method of manufacturing batches of one component and then another in 10-piece increments, my Ref 6 only recently arrived at my dealer. I picked it up last night and will hook it up to my brand new Ref 150se tonight. When I picked up my Ref 6, my dealer had it hooked up and running at my request and with other top-tier gear the sound was amazing right out of the box. Are you running balanced from preamp to amp? PC with the GS150? |
@fsonicsmith Are you stocked up on essentials? You might not be leaving your listening room. Congratulations!So kind of you, thx. I am going to be 58 soon. I used to spend small fortunes on custom made bicycles. I broke my hip in November and suffered some complications that continue. Haven't sold my stable of exotic bikes but decided life is too short to listen to less-than-thrilling gear. I have also decided to invest in a RoomPlay session with Jeff Smith. |
@fsonicsmith, "So crazy to me whitecamaross that you’ve stayed away from good tube amplification for so long. I can’t remember if your preamp is the Ref 5se or 6 (or other)......." Congrats on the awesome ARC gear, hope you enjoy the music for years to come! Going by the history of this thread, I don’t think OP has ever owned anything more than couple of months. I believe he is a reseller who has been graciously sharing his personal experiences. The end game is to churn high end components for profits. My two cents! |
Yes. I suppose it would be rude to ask how much money this journey has cost based upon purchase price vs. resale price. Care to share Whitecamaross? It would likely make me feel better as to how much I just spent :-). |
I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something but, what difference does it make if he is a reseller? The real question to me would be are the equipment reviews helpful. To me they are not only helpful, but entertaining. I actually think this is very nice. Magazines don't do this. Not only are most products they review the "best ever" but, they only typically compare with one or two products. This is actually a progression in performance as seen from the OPs perspective. A is better than B in certain ways, and C is better than B in certain ways. On and on. this is quite informative. I've been in this for quite some time and yes, I only really rely on my experience and hearing when making purchase decisions. But, it can't hurt to read others experiences and thoughts. And I also am a cyclist with many bikes. Not an inexpensive hobby either. On the bike or sitting listening to music with a glass of wine a good book and maybe a partner? Hmmm??? I'm enjoying this. Waiting for my REF 6 to arrive also. With Audio Research's trade up program, they give (gave?) 75% of MSRP on older equipment towards new equipment. 75% is better than used price. enjoy |
my apologies for misunderstand. Regarding the REF 6, this is the only purchase I have ever made where I hadn't heard it before purchase. I've heard the REF 5 vs the REF 3 and the REF 5 was "slightly and I mean slightly" better than the REF 3 which didn't warrant me buying the REF 5. However, the REF 5SE vs the REF 3 was a different story entirely. My friends heard the comparison and loved the REF 3 and couldn't understand how the REF 5 SE was that much better. Now we are at the REF 6. Well, I've heard the REF 10 and if I had the funds I would have bought the REF 10 outright. Wow! what a pre-amp. Everyone I know that has heard the REF 6 told me that it really is that much better than the REF 5SE as the REF 5SE was over the REF 3. It must be a trickled down REF 10. I'm really looking forward to getting it. enjoy |
Hi guys, a couple of things I want to discuss: lalitk:-- the added statement you made about my end game being to sell for a profit isn't really the case. First off, I don't have to keep this thread alive in order for me to do what you stated above. I could do that without sharing any of my findings with any of you. I've spent close to half a million dollars since I started this thread. i share this with you all and YOU ALL take my feedback and make a decision as to what you want to buy. I don't hold a gun to anybody's head forcing them to buy anything. That said, i also want to add that MANY OF YOU have messaged me asking for amp and speaker recommendations on my experience and some of you have even bought amps from me and have been very happy with my recommendations. If you all want to go spend the same money I've spent in order to do a trial and error until you find what you want then sure you can do that. Fsonicsmith---- I've owned other tube amps. If you followed my thread you'd see I've owned the McIntosh mc2301s, mc275 mk6. Minorl---- I appreciate your view on what I'm trying to do here. I'm glad you find my thread of much use in search of the best amp for your current set up. You and many others are what make me want to keep this thread alive. I've had phone conversations with some of you who have thanked me for keeping this thread going. I don't bullshit or sugar coat any product. I leave that for dealers and magazines to do. That's their job. Not mine. As i stated before, I gain nothing from keeping this thread alive. Dealers don't pay me to help them move any product at all. I hand pick my amplifiers based on price and resale value and if it's a product that I feel has synergy or potential to to take my system to the next level. If some of you find my thread biased, wrong, not accurate etc then don't follow my thread. Change the channel and move on to reading somebody else's thread. My thread is one of the few threads that is constantly updated and keeps going and so it will always have a following. If I had a YouTube channel and did my own reviews, I'd probably be making money from YouTube from all the views I'd have. It's simple and easy to do but I also have a family and a life and don't have time to put that effort in. Once again, take my feedback about amps as my personal input. Not everyone will agree with my input but some of you will agree with it. With that said, let me go downstairs and continue to listen to my gs150 / ref6 preamp combo. Cheers ! |
Well said! It's unfortunate that you have to explain yourself. I don't understand why lalitk felt like the comment was necessary. I think most other folks here appreciate your comparisons and experiences that you've shared. Plus, you've even given advice to some (me included!) Thanks for the fun and the information - I'm truly enjoying it! Dave |
One hour into my listening session and I’m having mixed feelings. Yesterday I was very impressed and today im like in the middle. Not sure if it’s that this amp goes through that phase where it sounds bad and then it gets better with time ? I have read that there are certain amps go through a process of charging and discharging their capacitors before they sound good. I believe the Jeff Rowland 925s are the amps that go through this process. Anyhow, one interesting thing Is that I’ve been playing with switching the speaker cables from the 4ohm to 8ohm connections to see what happens. My speakers are a 4ohm load but I connected one speaker on the 4ohm tap and the other one on the 8ohm and I hear more midrange on the speaker that’s connected on the 8ohm connection. Very interesting indeed. On another note, this amp is starting to give me the impression that it is unforgiving. Although it's tubes, it still is transparent enough to let you hear bad recordings sound bad. This wasn't the case with the Levinsons. They sounded pretty much good with any sort of source and the sonus fabers. |
VERY IMPORTANT TIP: I know some of you might not believe this but you need to try this tip and report back to me. Anyhow, I didn’t believe this until I spoke to a fellow audiophile who’s a doctor. He said to me about 4 months back to try to do critical listening in the morning after a full night of sleep. He said that at night after a long day of work, the human brain starts to shut down all your senses. Think of it like this, ever noticed how your vision gets blurry at night when you’re tired and you start to rub your eyes ? That’s your brain signaling and beginning to shut down your senses so you can go to sleep. Well it does the same thing to your ears by beginning to tune out noises in order to make you fall asleep. This in turn makes you hear less efficiently at night. Makes sense right ? So next time you do some critical listening, try to do it in the morning after you are fully rested and you may find the true sound of your current set up. You’ll thank me ;) |
Totally agree with that camaro. My best listening time is late at night (less AC noise and RF from cell phones), but when I am totally rested. Mornings can work too. Being rested is the key. Give the GF150 more time and try changing power cords to suit and see if things stabilize. I would not be surprised, however, if the GF150 maintains its overall stance toward neutrality and is more critical of poor recordings than a more forgiving amp. There is often a price to pay for superior resolution. Dave |
Thanks for the feedback. I now always say try to pause from passing a judgment quite fast on any amp. I need to listen at night, day, afternoon and try to be rested. Preferably without having used any sort of headphones before. The less exposure your ears have had to music from a car or iPhone headphones etc, the less tired your ears will be. As far as powercords, I'll have to order one because as you know audio research has these 20a power cords on one end of the cable so my aftermarket powercord won't work which is a pain. At this time, I'm shocked that the 8ohm taps have more volume and more sparkle than the 4ohm. |
I'd be fatigued with all of the ongoing critical listening. Add to the mix: Too much of a good thing, and too many good things. Put this on repeat. Yes, I'd be fatigued. And likely unsatisfied. Thoughts? whitecamaross: I enjoy your thread...so the above is not meant negatively, just postulating where I'd likely be if I did what you do. |
Thanks david_ten. It’s certainly not easy to do this. It takes patience and constantly taking apart the rack shelf to fit new gear plus rerouting cables etc. Indeed, it’s not for everyone what I do. Lifting monster pass labs amps out of their boxes all by myself has left me with battle scars on my hands and forearms from the sharp heatsinks plus a few herniated disks. That said, it’s still a good feeling that I continue to enjoy until that day arrives when I’ll feel like I’m done with it. I was very much into muscle cars for many years but i can’t spend a full weekend working on engines and exhaust systems and not spend time with my family. I realized that I couldn’t continue such long hours on my back turning wrenches so I put that part of my life to rest. I’ve always enjoyed music and I took it to another level once I had put the wrenches away. I enjoy this hobby because it truely doesn’t take anywhere near as much time as working on cars did. I’ve always had hobbies and feel it’s extremely important to have one otherwise life could get boring. I couldn’t be happy if my life was all work work, come home, eat, shower and go to sleep and repeat again and have zero pleasure. That to me isn’t living. To live doesn’t mean you are alive. Being alive is actually enjoying your life with whatever brings you joy. |
@whitecamaross Let me just say, I've truly enjoyed following your thread. I'm sure many others do too but just do not post. The fact you've done all you've done, spent all you've spent, and continually updated this post just because of your love for this hobby is a thing of character. And I really appreciate that. And the fact you report like you hear, that is what we want. We don't need anymore "professional" reviews. Tell it like it is. Rock on! |
Whitecamaross- I missed your McIntosh trial but certainly the vast, vast majority of your journey has been with DC coupled amps and not transformer coupled. As to the latter, ARC advises to ignore the rated impedance of your speaker and try for yourself. The "advice and tips" section of the ARC website is very concise, easy to read, and worthwhile. Impedance curves and phase angles are not linear and is the primary reason that there is an art to matching loudspeaker to an amp. As to the GS150, it will take you for a ride for 200-400 hours before it settles in. There are a boatload of caps in the GS150 and even trannies have to settle in a bit. I fired up my Ref 150se for the first time last night with my Ref 6. The sound over four hours time swung from glorious and detailed with information conveyed that I had never heard before in familiar recordings to a bit hard and rough. At times low end bass was taut and at others, a bit one-note. I heard a huge soundstage at some times and a less pleasant Phil Spector Wall of Sound at others. Clicks and pops on vinyl were a bit startling in their speed and clarity. One of my KT150's is not checking out on my trusty fluke meter as being in the correct range but it is close enough to be operational. KT150s are known to drift all over the place despite careful matching until they have a chance to burn in a bit and even then they can be a pain. ARC may disagree, but I have read elsewhere that a good multimeter (like a Fluke) will render far more accurate readings than using the built-in meters. Again, tube amps require quite a bit more attention than SS. It's like vinyl vs. digital. Want convenience? Stick with digital. But in our hobby there is no getting around the need for some maintenace- cleaning and dressing cable terminations once a year for example. I may have to replace a pair or two of KT150's. Let me repeat-your GS150 will be a roller coaster for an average of two months of regular listening before it's really in it's true "on-song" state as the Brits call it. You say you used to be into muscle cars. The analogy would be that at the highest levels of performance, computer modules, spark plugs, and fuel delivery must be constantly tinkered with. It's not quite that bad with tube amps once you break in the amp. |
As someone else in this thread accurately predicted, here is an authorized dealer boldly selling band new GS150's at a steep discount. Keep in mind ARC strictly forbids authorized dealers from giving more than an 8% discount UNLESS the product is being discontinued. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-audio-research-gs150-amplifier-new-and-sealed-3-year-factory-... Damn, it's such a beautiful amp! |
Thanks for the feeeback fsonicsmith. I will keep everything in mind in regards to your input. I love it the amp at times and not so much other times. It could be me being tired perhaps and not having rested ears. Not sure yet. That said, I can confirm this amp sounds better than my 350.8 does with the sonus fabers. It has plenty of clarity and detail and does so much right. I'll keep trying to let it break in for a few more months and then see what turns out. I will also attempt to find another solid state amp and see if there's one that can give this amp a run for the money. I thought about a pair of krell 900e monos or Jeff Rowland 925s but I'm not quiet sure. I almost bought a constellation centaur stereo amp as well but that deal fell through. |
