" I was able to compare my AGD amps against my brothers Boulder 3050 amps for a month driving Wilson XLF’s. The Boulder edged out the AGD Audion’s slightly but considering the AGD Audion is the entry level amp for AGD it did spectacular."
Let’s look at this closer. We have the 3050 which is sonically superior to the 2150 amps that Jay reviewed and that he thought were the best amps he had ever heard.........So, are the $7500 AGD Audion amps then as good as the 2150s? The 3050s are $195K. The 2150s are $99K. The 3050’s weigh 441 lbs. each. The AGD Audion’s weigh 5 lbs. each!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The AGD amps are really a $3500 amp with added glitz in the form of fake tubes, tube guard, fancy shipping case and fancy power cords......If you took the circuit and power supplies of the Audion’s and put it in a stereo dual mono normal chassis and shipped it in a cardboard box then it would be around $3500.......so a $3500 amp was close to the $195K Boulder amps???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Audion’s have one dollar op amps for the input buffers......they cannot be state of the art....never.....so that means that if they were done with better input stages, etc. they probably would blow away any Boulder?......not in power...hardly......but WTF. It already looks like all those heavy expensive things are boat anchors. Good luck trying to sell them after the really great class D amps show up. OMG what a revolution! |
@jetter
That's what I'm talking about. I know that some of you would buy those amps if my opinion was positive because you know the level of gear I've been playing with. This is what I've been saying this whole entire time. |
Jay’s preferences have slowly morphed over the years. At a high level, here are the important qualities (these are randomly selected and in no particular order) that i seek:
1. Clarity
2. Bass control
3. Soundstage width & depth
4. Dynamics
5. Long-term effects ( how long i can sit in front of the component without having to turn it down)
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X3 - agreed. Besides, I don't care about any amp brand, I was just trying to figure out the logic of WC's preferences. Moving on...
Dave
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The Gran Vivace's are $18.5K a pair. Is that expensive enough? |
rh67, that is a great recommendation. If Underwood HiFi was to send an AGT amp to Jay for testing, and he was to give it the big thumbs up, I would be very tempted to buy one, and I think others also.
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@jays_audio_lab
X2 - let the dead remain so. |
Jay...maybe OCD Mike Powell will loan you some AGD stuff.He seems confident that it is some of the best amplification to be had regardless of price... I won’t hold my breath though. 8) |
@kren:
That's not nice...you're trying to wake up the dead... |
Rh67I’m here man...send that stuff here and I’ll let everyone know if it sinks or swims? I’ll eat shipping both ways?
I will sell my new amps and buy those amps you got if they best mine. I will be 200% objective as well. I have heard gear in my room that has given me enough satisfaction to contemplate keeping it and then selling the more expensive piece. For instance, Gryphon Essence...I've been vocal as to how awesome it is and it isn't my most expensive amp. I'm still blown away by it. This should show you that I'm not all about the price. |
jetter
It's the one product that in decades that has made a significant impact in my experience regarding audio. It's worth posting about and many here have taken my advice and concur as i do. I do not post just to post as it seems many here do. I have owned many of the brands mentioned here but none have given me the motivation as the AGD's have. Now if i posted about every product i have owned and gave it a thumbs up then you would have reason to question a post from me. |
I think a Pass Labs debate betwen thezaks and inna would be fun..... |
Right rh67, you have 238 posts and virtually every one of them is hawking the AGD amp. Hard to take anyone seriously who is one tracked or a manufacturer of class D. |
rices
There is truth in some of what you say. I was able to compare my AGD amps against my brothers Boulder 3050 amps for a month driving Wilson XLF's. The Boulder edged out the AGD Audion's slightly but considering the AGD Audion is the entry level amp for AGD it did spectacular. |
Remember one KEY FACTOR:
Those that claim pass labs is the best for them (which i applaud because they found something they love), have never had a " high " reference point.
I urge each and everyone of you to always ask what is the reference point of anyone making such claims.
Once you know, you’ll understand my position.
If i said the best watches are fossil watches , but yet i have never owned a Rolex, how much weight will my opinion have... I'll leave it at that. |
Regarding Pass i believe most who are in an uproar it's not so much about the equipment but the man behind the equipment that they feel they are protecting.
I have owned some of the amps you have reviewed and own Wilson's, what people have to realize is that in my experience differences are not night and day and on any given day an amp can sound slightly different. I do not think at this level there is a right or wrong get what you like regardless of another's opinion, sure we all like a little direction but from there one should be on their own. |
I refuse to change my journey and begin to review "normal" gear - for lack of better word.
I will occasionally bring components that are more affordable - as I’ve done before but that’s not my primary focus.
Why would I review the same that everyone else does?. You’re essentially asking me to regurgitate what has been said with that level of gear.
The day SOMEONE - A manufacturer or end user can put a product at my door that blows the doors off what I’ve had in here (or what i have here right now), i give you MY WORD, I’ll sell all my sH!t and buy these new affordable units. Why wouldn’t i want to have more money in the bank and less invested on equipment?
What I’m NOT going to do is buy this affordable stuff with my own money because if it sinks and doesn’t swim, i will be the one having to sell it.
I am a believer that there is a desire from some people which is that want me to buy these other components so they can hear what i have to say.
I’m not going to take advantage of the free trial period either. If these brands that claim to kill the ultra high end REALLY believed it, they would have used MY CHANNEL as means to get exposure. How much money would it cost them to send me something to try? Not much. They could easily see opportunity with me. The reality is that deep down they know they don’t have what it takes or else they would have come out with guns blazing and showed what they are capable of.
I’m here saying it: SEND ME THIS NEW AFFORDABLE PRODUCT and i will sell my Sh!t if it beats it. I will be front and center on my channel disclosing what transpired.
The thing is there’s no politics on my channel. If their product sucks, do they want me to say that? Nah..and this is no different than what other reviewers do. They also don’t speak up when something they reviewed sucks. This is A FACT by the way.
I don't want this to be a back and forth fyi. I spoke my peace and i will leave it at that. I think i left it quite clear where i stand with these "scenarios" of affordable "ultra high end" components.
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All these expensive amps will soon be boat anchors. Check out the $7.5K AGD Audion....check out the $3K LSA Voyager (just released and I will be modding them soon), check out the new Mytek $6K Manhattan and $20K Empire amps (coming soon). This new generation of Class D using GaN fets is just the beginning. More and more high end companies will be releasing class D amps.....Imagine a class D output stage with Gryphon or Boulder discrete front ends driving them...WOW!. Class D output stages are tiny and super efficient....so no heatsinks and banks of output transistors. So, a Boulder or Gryphon class D amp would be way less heavy, be smaller and cost less. They might be working on a GaN class D amp right now!!!! If not, they are stuck in the past. If you stay with the expensive heavy boxes you are going to lose a lot of money and have a hard time selling them in a few years as class D takes over.
Same with preamps.....check out the $2000 Denafrips Athena preamp and also the $3100 Holo Audio Serene preamp.......some serious technology in these things and getting rave reviews......and dirt cheap compared to $40K preamps.
Speakers.....well, one can make speakers for very little that compete and beat the big boys.....has been known for years. My friend has the 98 db modified Lii Audio full range 10 inch driver on a 4 foot by 2 foot open baffle with 4 foot by one foot wings going straight back and is getting flat to 40 hz in his pretty good sized room. He added an ESS dipole AMT tweeter on top using a copper foil cap to make it even better....total cost with wood and drivers is a little over $2K. HE IS GOBSMACKED! He goes to shows and his system right now is way out there. He is going to add 2 15 inch woofs on the bottom on each channel so he can blow the walls down.....4 woofs plus solid state amp plus xover is another $3K. Should blow most $100K+ speakers away.
This thread does nothing for the average audiophile. They cannot afford any of the components discussed here. This is why so little traffic, discussions and so few people subscribing to Jay's channel. You basically have the same thing happening over and over and discussed by the same people over and over.......saying the same things over and over. It is entertaining......but look at Supercar Blonde......she is entertaining and has over 6.5 million subscribers. If you played the same game but at the level that most people are at then you would have thousands and thousands more people involved. As it is.....it is a small club....for the wealthy and conservative non tweakers......a very small amount of people.
There is nothing wrong with this thread.....Jay and others are nice people.....it just does not serve very many people.....nor does it display a wide variety of music or opinions or the REAL possibilities of audio taken to the nth degree (at whatever price point).
I know that many enjoy this thread and are grateful for Jay for doing what he does. This is all good. But.....there is more......much more......it is infinite. May all be blessed with infinite joy and love. Peace. |
I'm a little behind here......are we still waiting a month later to find out what the fourth preamp and the monos are? Or did some of them get sold before they ever saw the light of camera (day)?
Sorry if I missed it, been a little checked out...... |
If it's about one brand amp/preamp vs another brand amp/preamp, that is a different thing than just comparing one amp to another with the same preamp. No worries. Looking forward to what's to come.
Dave
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I gave those brand names thinking about the brand holistically speaking. You are primarily focusing on one power amp which i wasn't doing.
I think the momentum with matching preamp (which i owned later if you recall) is much better than any pass labs amp with a xp30 or 32.
The xs300 is the only amp from pass i would own if i had to own one. It’s still excellent but it requires too much to deliver.
I’ll show you all something new in due time. Just be patient |
OK, thanks WC. Just trying to nail it down. 4 radiators would not be desired by some folks for sure. So, if I have this correct....according to you:
Pass Labs makes mid Fi products, but DD does not. The Xs is better sonically than the DD, but the Xs is still considered mid Fi.
Still does not make sense to me, but I'm thinking that's the best I will get from you.
Thanks,Dave
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I don't believe Dan makes mid Fi products... That's the main reason why. I don't mind 4 chassis because I'm nuts but the average person doesn't want 4 radiators in their home. |
Totally understand the analogies. However, that being the case, then how is it that the DD makes the favorite amp list and not the Xs amps - which you liked better? That's where it gets confusing and where the logic of the analogy gets broken...
Dave
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My opinion of gryphon today is simply what? Amazing and incredible on all counts right? What about 2 years from today when there’s "new blood" of top end amplifiers? Maybe I’ll realize at that point in time what gryphon doesn’t do 100% at this time?
Evolution is a thing... Had i met the Mephisto when i had momentum and xs300? Nope...
The Mephisto would have easily pulverized both. One chassis, monster control, huge speed and dynamics. The clock keeps ticking and time isn’t meant to stand still.
I used to love the 2002 Camaro SS but then the Camaro ZL1 came out...guess which one i think is better?
Back in 1998 I owned a 1995 mustang gt (which i loved) and then i hopped in a 2004 Z06... I never looked back...
Do you all follow a guy by the name "Doug demuro"? He reviews cars then gives them a grade for each car. As he reviews new cars, he begins to take down the grade of vehicles he reviewed because he has to grade new vehicles.
If i were to say pass labs xs300 was a 99% out of 100% back when i owned it, then where do I place boulder 2150 and Mephisto? 99%????
I can’t because the xs300 isn’t near the level of those two amps..
Every review you read by anyone is "usually" only good up until that particular point in time. If enough time has passed since then, one must read what has changed and been released since then because if there has been innovation, there might already be a better component today with more of what didn’t exist before.
If Gryphon releases a Mephisto mk2 in the near future, most likely it would overthrow the current Mephisto if it was designed to do so.
Plenty of people chase their tail looking for a "cost no object" stereo power amplifier yet if they read between the lines of what I've said , they would have already been finished looking by now (assuming they like what i like of course because this is subjective) |
WC,
I think you did a great job in your video of covering the pros/cons of Pass Labs from your perspective. I think folks who love Pass Labs are accepting of the heat, warmup time, etc, in exchange for the sonics they treasure from Pass Labs.
However, for me, I'm left a little confused as to your description of the Pass Labs sonics, because you generalized across all Pass Lab products. The reason it's confusing for me is due to your previous time with the Xs amps, which seemed to really impress you. In your video of the Xs vs the Dan D'Agostino amps, you said the Xs is more the type of sound you prefer, and the Xs was the winner. You listed the DD's as one of your favorite amp brands, so why would not the Xs be included as well?
I've mentioned this a couple of times now in recent pages, and there's not been any response. Almost seems like an intentional avoidance of the subject, at least that's how it's hitting me (not necessarily your intention at all :-)
Dave
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Entertaining, Jay. Make recordings of the ocean at various distances, then play them back on your system when you return. A unique opportunity. |
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Wanted to send a shout out to Jay as he graciously sold me his AE. Smooth transaction and he got it to me in less than a week. Thanks Jay.
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zprr,
Reasonable definitions. Judiciously using an EQ such as my Rane ME 60 has enabled me to change tonalities according to the deficiencies of the speaker, recording, amp. If the sound is too warm, I lower 200-800 Hz to decrease warmth which is to say increase coolness. With less flexible tone controls of some preamps this can still be done. Lowering up to 1000 Hz allows higher freq to be more dominant--this is often a more gentle/tasteful way to achieve more HF brilliance without going over the top with HF boost.
For those closed minded people who disparage EQ, understand that the engineers liberally use EQ in your favorite recordings. If you don't like their choices, you can do your own EQ to achieve your desired sound. You may not have to sell your electronics at 50% loss. Read the glowing latest Stereophile review of the Accuphase DG-68 digital voicing equalizer. But even the reviewer doesn't fully realize the utility of EQ in different freq ranges and has much to learn. |
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Hope everyone had a nice weekend. A friend and I were discussing amp traits and descriptors the past few days. Because everyone’s reference points may be different, it seems like adjectives can be used that mean different things to different folks. Especially tricky to characterize an individual component as everything up and downstream can influence the sound. He sent me a link to some useful definitions that could help serve as a basis. I imagine there are other good ones out there. Was informative me for me to read and think about and apply them to my own system. Jay/others: which amps would you put into the following camps with the above caveats? DARK: A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency. (Compare "light" - Lean and tipped-up. The audible effect of a frequency response which is tilted counterclockwise) WARM: The same as dark, but less tilted. A certain amount of warmth is a normal part of musical sound. NEUTRAL: Free from coloration. COOL: Moderately deficient in body and warmth, due to progressive attenuation of frequencies below about 150Hz. COLD: Same as "cool," only more so. Having somewhat excessive upper-range output and weak lower-range output. Definitions from: http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/bbs/stereophile_audio-glossary.html |
-1 on AGD
Not interested at this time. i appreciate the recommendation and it is always possible that i try it at some point down the road. Right now, my mind is locked in with what I've got going on and what i will be bringing over the next few weeks. |
+1 on the AGD Gran Vivace mono blocks. Even the Audions sound great with the Wilson XLF. |
Jay,
Your 'pros and cons' videos are so informational...nobody is as honest and candid as you are. Would love a 'pros and cons' vid on Constellation Audio.
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How about trying the AGD Gran Vivace monoblocks? AGD offer a money-back in-home trial period, so there's not too much financial downside. |
I saw the below quote on another site (for car audio), and I thought it would be fun for sharing on a Friday - it is a quote from Alan Parsons:
"Audiophiles don’t use their equipment to listen to your music.Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment."
Have a great Friday and weekend.
Dave |
vini234,
Going WAY back, I had the Electrocompaniet original 25 watt/ch stereo, called "the two channel amplifier." It had good clarity, but was somewhat warm compared to my next amp, JVC M-7050. Reading reviews and speaking to a dealer, the newer Electro amps are good but with a warm character. I heard the Luxman M600A and found it more accurate than my original Electro. I never heard the Luxman 900 package, but surmise it is more accurate than Electro. I recommend you probably should stick with Luxman. I agree with Jay's assessment of Pass. Stay with Luxman. Actually, I have a guarded recommendation of my under $2K Rouge Audio as THE best value, and possibly near SOTA. Today, the sound is less sharp than yesterday, and sounds neutral with good clarity. Follow my break in journey with this one. |
Hi all
Currently
I have an aw250R electrocompainet equipment and I pre-loaded 4.8 mk2 with some sonus faber olympica nova 3 and I am thinking of improving my amplification.
I like the accuphase E800 and the luxman 900 preamp and stage.
They offer me the C900 exdemo at a good price, about 8000 Eur and giving my previous would stay at € 6750, they offer me very little for my previous when it is not a year old, it is practically new and costs 4 times more, you think it is worth it the change.
The idea was to take the previous luxman and leave the electrocompainet stage for a while until we could go through the luxman stage.
I would also value other brands that you would recommend if with this I make a leap in quality, I have also looked at pass, I do not know the model, but it may not go wrong with my boxes.
I appreciate your opinion, I have to make a decision soon.
Thanks a lot
Greetings to all
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Maybe one day I'll buy one.
The pass labs crowd is quite routy on YouTube. Whoa 😳
Some of them are feeling their heart ripped out of their chest. It's only electronics... |
I agree, i have spent a lot of time (months) listening to the XA25 with the XLF and i found it to be the best Pass amp with the XLF.
More money spent does not always equal better SQ either. My AGD amps paired with the XLF produces some of the best music i have heard at 1/4 the cost of some of the amps reviewed here. |
Jay,
Some commenter on your video said that Nelson Pass is designing the new First Watt amps, leaving the old Pass sound behind. Try the higher power First Watt, still low power, but enough for quality music on the XLF. |
rh67,
You have confirmed my belief that for sound quality, lower power amps are better than higher power amps of the same company. Jay found the lowest power Gryphon Essence to be the best G. He should try to find a Pass XA25 which would be enough to satisfy on the XLF for most music. |
ricevs,
Nice quote from your happy customer. At this moment, with 20 hours of break in at only 70 dB maximum for full small orchestra and most of the time at 30-50 dB, I rate my Rouge close to a 10 for delicate detail. With clarity like this, it is actually relaxing to hear so much of the music at a low SPL. Maybe I am having a lucky day with power quality.
I entertained the idea of getting a second amp and A/B'ing your modded amp with the original. Meanwhile, maybe you can be specific with each stock amp a customer sends you, compare to your mods after break in, noting the specific sonic ways your amp is better. |
Looking forward to it!
Dave |
Ok so i have a quick update:
I don't think i will have more "music videos" for at least the next 10-12 days. I have sold my DCS, all of my synergistic research cables, aurender w20se and shunyata everest, Dragon powercords and other things. I basically have an incomplete system at this time and well I have to get all this shipped out and begin to find their replacements.
For now, i have new cables on order (xlr and speaker cables) and i have to embark on the quest for a new music server to go with the MSB Reference DAC. What is coming? hmmm...Patience... You will soon find out! |
Yep...I am an Unpaid and Overworked Spokesperson/Bulldog. Still waitin for the Scooby snacks to materialize.
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