My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I agree with how you described the sonic characters of the S7 and M6. Just a further word on resolution. Perhaps the M6 is more beautiful, in its even tonal balance, which ron17 also likes. But more polite is equivalent to saying that HF are reduced, compared to the more forward tweeter of the S7. Many people don't like more HF, but the upper midrange and HF are the regions that convey most of the harmonics/overtones of voices and instruments. Also, the ear is most sensitive at 3-4 kHz. Often delicate HF details get lost in the M6 type of presentation, so having more HF output is an obvious way to hear more of the delicate upper midrange/HF detail. The art of HF boosting just enough but not too much, is what yields more information content while not destroying the beauty and balance of the music. The S7 has lots of bass to balance out the forward tweeter, so the S7 is musical in that clever way. The Wilson XLF also had this U-shaped freq balance--big bass and HF, relatively depressed midrange which made the tweeter stand out.
I believe the M6 is undoubtedly the superior speaker. It has more finesse, it's more beautiful and more polite while still giving you the full scoop of resolution but served on a different plate.
The S7 is more brute, I'd say probably more bass too and the type of speaker you can throw parties with and jam out. You have all the bass you could ever want but the tweeter is more forward than the M6's.
I don't doubt that the M6 would sound significantly better in here with my electronics. I feel i can make just about any speaker sound phenomenal because my electronics are that incredible.
If we think about the best value, well yes the S7 is the winner. I think it has the sweet spot and the best price performance than any other magico. Does this make it better than the rest? Nope... It just gives you A LOT for your hard earned dollars.
No doubt the M6 would sound more articulate and revealing with Jay's present Boulder + Stromtank, than it did with his previous electronics on the M6. But you and I opined that the S7 is a brighter speaker than the M6. Alon himself stated his goal of the M project is to avoid the HF extension and air of many systems. He claims that this is artificial. I disagree, as I stated in several posts. It appears you have enough experience with Magico to know that the M series are warmer and richer sounding than other Magico series. Remember that differences between speakers are much greater than between electronics. The M6 will therefore have its character no matter what the electronics are, and so will the S7. So I predict that Jay would still prefer the S7 to the M6, even with his present electronics. I just hope he has the wisdom to know by now what the speaker does and what electronics do, and not have to spend crazy money on getting the M6 again just to confirm my assessment. It was one thing in the old days to get the inexpensive Luxman M900u amp several times to try in different systems, but speakers are ridiculously expensive and HEAVY. It is smarter to learn lessons than to continue to break backs and bank accounts for the sake of experimentation.
The S7 with warmer electronics and cables will still have more articulation and HF info than the M6 with the most ruthless and revealing electronics and cables.
I think if Jay were to drop a pair of M6's into his current system it would be a different story. The Stromtank, Aurender N30, MSB Select2, Boulder 3010 / 3060 and transparent cables are a big part of the overall tonal presentation. I bet Jay would prefer the M6's over the S7's. Over the last month, Jay has gone from Transparent SC's to Gryphon Vanta SC's, I'm guessing to tame that slight aggressive (at higher volumes) tonal balance of the S7's. The M6's would be more refined yet very detailed due to the Boulders, Select2 and Transparent cables....just my opinion.
Nobody should buy anything without listening first
I have listened to the M6 many times. A good friend of mine has them with a full CH gear. By far the best audio experience I ever had.
Where did you hear the M6, and what drove them (I assume you know that listening to gear on YT doesn’t count)?
Never mind money and prestige, showing off to your acquaintances what expensive equipment you have. Nobody should buy anything without listening first, unless you are well connected like Jay, who can buy at a sizable discount so that he can sell without taking losses. Based on my listening to Jay's videos, I prefer the S7 to the M6. I can easily afford either speaker. I wouldn't have the M6 in my listening room even if someone paid me the MSRP of $180K to be forced to listen to them.
But if you happen to prefer the sound of the M6/M3 to cheaper Magicos, then you can save up to buy them.
I have spoken to Alon on a couple of occasions. He definitely is involved in the design of the speakers in regards to its overall 'voicing'. Alon once told me that the S series was for those who needed a more bass inflected sound whereas the Q series ( at the time) was for those who liked a more refined bass sound with a little more resolution, but less output. This is where I also feel the main differences lie between the S line and his older Q line.
Not sure why folks think Keithr is a Magico hater, just because someone doesn't happen to adore a speaker line doesn't make them into a hater, IMHO.
I watched the whole video. I think it was in the 2nd half, nearer to the end. They go into the room just for the A series. Jay has a notice about the A series. Alon probably used the word, "mundane" or a similar word. In the earlier part, Jay lifted the heavy 50 lb face of solid aluminum cut from the 450 lb aluminum block. After all this impressive demonstration of the top materials used in the M series, maybe also for the S series, Alon notes the simpler cabinet materials in the A series. None of this matters at all. The main factors in the sound you like from your A5 come from the choice of drivers, crossovers, which determine the tonal balance you like.
About 10 years ago, I borrowed the Viola Labs Concerto amplifier, $25K for merely a 100 watt stereo class AB amp. The case was cut from a solid aluminum block, and weighed 53 lbs, a lot for a tiny case which would have weighed 20 lbs if conventional materials were used. All this fancy resonance reduction for an amp whose sound was nothing special. Beware of audio jewelry.
The more impressive job was from Jay, rather than the Magico factory tour itself. No doubt the workmanship at Magico is top level. But let the drooling wear off, and face reality. All the "perfect" measuring tools don't mean much if the tonal balance of a particular speaker is not to anyone's liking. Alon refers to the A series as "mundane" but the M project was driven by his sonic preference for a particular HF balance. Even If I were a billionaire, I would still prefer the S7 to M6 as evidenced from Jay's videos, and likely not care for the M9. Henry201 preferred the "mundane" A5 to the 2x the price YG speaker.
This show is basically promotion based on technical specs. A publication called Audio Science Review (ASR) is based on technical specs with absolutely no attention paid to listening. The ASR rightly gets no respect from most audiophiles.
Jay, don't lust over your next speaker based on high price and specs. You didn't care for the M6, but your favorite speaker so far is the S7 which is less than half the price of the M6. No, it is not from your great Boulders and Stromtanks--it is because you prefer the tonal balance of the S7. Even if you win the lottery, I doubt you would prefer the M9 in your room. And don't choose the highest price flagship speaker from another company--it could easily have a tonal balance you don't like.
Agreed on the video production WC - great job! You make it fun, because you are like a kid in a candy store, and on display is your passion and your humility - just being a real person and treating the whole thing like a privilege.
Well Jay I’m very impressed with the video production. More so I think than the Mágico factory. You and your wife did a great job with this. Congratulations!
Part 2 - " Research and Development " drops tomorrow at 12 pm ET. Please subscribe and turn on your notifications so you are informed once the video drops.
This video has outstanding video quality and it is 52 minutes long!!
I urge you to watch the whole thing because if you skip through it, you'll miss a ton of things. It is jammed packed with quality content so take your time watching it.
All one need to do is search "Magico" Posted by" keithR" on WBF. Hundreds of posts mainly of unfounded hate. You’ll notice they hardly make sense if you bunch them all together. I wonder if he ever even heard a pair.
The funny part is that after years of searching (and hundreds more "KeithR’s Dream Speaker" posts), he ended up buying a speaker he can’t/will not use (YG Hailey). I don’t blame him, they are not that good (and I like YG). I did consider them but ended up with the Magico A5. A MUCH better speaker at half the price. But KithR will never admit to that 😶
Thank you for seeing the back and forth between me (and 3 others) and keithr for what it really was. I was perplexed to read keithr's post on this thread "Alon doesn’t design the speakers, guys." I didn't use abusive language or bad mouth him, I simply wanted for him to clarify his statement. For keithr to then post "I forgot rbach for whatever reason has a thing against me and I’m not going to engage anymore." I believe what he is talking about is last year when I called him out for speaking in a negative way towards Jay on WBF. Here is my response to him on this thread and his quote from WBF.....
rbach
189 posts
10-30-2021 at 09:12am
@keithr
I believe zprr does know what he's talking about. Your statement about Jay in your WBF post did not paint you in the same light as Jay (just a couple of crazy amp guys). Your statement was derogatory towards him. You were complaining about Jay calling Pass Lab amps "mid fi" and the way the hi end has gotten so expensive. Like I said in my previous post to you.
'keithr, don't you think it would be more accurate to say the crazy amp dude placed Pass Labs in his middle tier group based on amps he has personally owned?'
You made a mistake and it's time to move on instead of trying to wiggle out of it.
And for everyone's pleasure, here it is again.
From a post keithr made on WBF
"When I hear folks say $15k amplifiers are budget oriented, I feel the hobby has lost its way (see the crazy amp dude's YouTube channel that considers Pass Labs "mid fi"). The average Stereophile reader's system is $19k, but this is WBF after all so I guess it's expected. The reason this hobby has shrunk so much is the focus in the audiophile media and community on high priced bling of the month - I chuckled two years ago when TAS declared the $50k speaker category as "highly competitive." Dagostino is famously designed on form over function. Have you seen the internals of a Constellation compared with the expensive case? Why does carbon fibre and installation lights *on the back(!)* of a Chronosonic impress people?"
Also, here are just a few posts keithr has made on Agon. I am on a business trip currently and don't have time to go through the many 'no so great posts on Magico' made by keithr on WBF.
From Audiogon:
keithr
1,281 posts
04-23-2021 at 10:10pm
Haven’t checked in on this thread in months, Magico with big SS seems sorta boring. But I guess Wilson and Magico with the goal of hearing a pin prick on a stage is appealing to some.
Meanwhile, Fyne F1-12s land in my room in a few weeks :) Figuring out what the perfect amp will be, but when 50 watts is enough there are so many options, mostly inexpensive. I’m surprised Jay hasn’t gone in this direction as an amp guy like me.
keithr
1,281 posts
04-24-2020 at 09:32pm
Still haven’t heard a musically convincing Magico system in a decade. They are analytical, non-dynamic, and not particularly coherent. YG is a much better speaker in aluminum land.
keithr
1,281 posts
06-10-2019 at 08:22am
Interesting how ears are different - I found the Vandy room sleepy (as usual) and the M2s on Burmester borderline dead. I guess I prefer more dynamic sound (and tbh don't value imaging as much). I, too, am sensitive to hot tweeters from all the way back in my Dynaudio days vs the popular JM Lab at the time.
keithr
1,281 posts
12-05-2018 at 08:19am
I've heard the A3s on Vac monoblocks at the LA Audio Show and me and two others found them dynamically restricted and kinda dead sounding.
I have owned several Magico speakers and currently own a pair. There are many speakers I don't care for but am careful not to criticize them publicly. I have nothing personally against keithr....I just think he should read what he writes before pressing send.
@thezaksi get it I just didn’t think his comment that Alon wasn’t the only designer d warranted the comment that’s all. Hey not a big deal we all have a right to our opinions including rbach.
Well I don’t think Keithr’s statement that Alon wasn’t the chief designer makes him a”Mágico hater”. That’s pretty strong language and only serves to provoke. Maybe he’s not a fan of Mágico I don’t know, but stating Alon wasn’t the designer isn’t a hateful remark toward the company. Not the way I took it anyway. Im sure Alon has put together a highly specialized team of individuals to accomplish the goals of his company. I think Jay has made his Mágico’s sing and I believe he is capable of making a lot of speakers sing in his system. His relentless pursuit of making a system sing have earned appropriate recognition here on this site as well as YouTube.
This discussion between keithr and rbach is interesting....
I have to agree with rbach and henry201 (and WC too, based on his comment) that keithr made it sound like Alon does not do any of the design. I honestly don't think these folks are attacking - just questioning the statement you made. I think keithr has now clarified it, so that's good.
And, is it true that keithr has posts on other forums, indicating a dislike for Magico? If true, then keithr should just own his opinion and not claim that folks are attacking. If it's not true, then I understand the attacking comment, and I would question rbach's motives.
Thanks,I just bought the 532h,and love it.Also some stealth pgs interconnects.Iam surprised how good this cable sounds for the money.Very recommended.Thanks again.
fair enough. but why did you delete your post about your respect for magico, consideration of their speakers and discussion/meeting Alon? honestly confused.
Sorry guys, Im done with this. Jay, feel free to give me a call and happy to discuss. I forgot rbach for whatever reason has a thing against me and I’m not going to engage anymore.
People can’t have honest conversations here anymore.
I have also read dozens of posts by keithr on WBF and Agon conveying his dislike for Magico. Anything he says about Magico sends up a red flag for me. keithr's original post was: "Alon doesn’t design the speakers, guys." I agree with henry201 that it sounded like Alon has nothing to do with the design process, which I believe is false.
So sorry Keith, but maybe your comment sounded like Alon has nothing to do with the products, hence the reactions🤔 You are back paddeling now, which is fine. I don’t think anyone thought that Magico is a one man show.
Yair Tamman basically designs the speakers, Jay. He’s been the CTO of the company for years. Alon gives guidance of course. And yes, Ive met Alon in person several times.
Maybe others should calm down and stop the stupid attacks.
I too find it hard to believe that Alon doesn't have his hands in every aspect of design, voicing and build process. Yes keithr, please show us proof of what you stated.
Where did you hear that Alon doesn’t build his speakers? Based on what i saw in the factory, i find your comment QUITE DIFFICULT to believe. If your comment is a "he/she said" or what you "heard" then it would be more of an opinion rather than actual fact.
Facts are quite important when making a statement like that or else you can make anyone look like the milli vanilli story.
@jays_audio_labYes Jay I’d be very careful in making big changes at this point. Look at all you’ve been through to get where you are and to put together the right combination of everything to suit this space. Any move at this point must carefully calculated and not irreversible. You have fine tuned to such a great extent. Now you have a very linear system with excellent resolution. Once you start into analog you have just about as much tweeking there as well to keep you busy for a while. However that being said change is fun too. I can’t count the number of systems I’ve gotten where I wanted it only to begin again in a totally different direction which I consider part of the fun. Great job here that you’ve done, thanks for taking us along.
Thanks for the review on the MC452 and Pass amps. I had the MC452 in my system for a short time. In short is sucks. I had higher expectations for it. Bought and sold it. Only good thing on Mac stuff they do hold value well. But there are better amps for less. Thanks again I agree with your findings in comparison.
Jay- I would wager that you love the S7 because it happens to be the best acoustical match for your room acoustics more than the electronics. You’ve had top-level stuff for a long time now. I’ve had many excellent speakers in my room and sometimes you put one in and it just clicks with everything and you know it right away. I’m not sure there’s any way to predict which one will mate with the room and your taste other than to try. And, as in your case, the S7 happens to be somewhat less money than many others. Like your buddy in PR that you helped with the Wilsons. He was lucky that they happened to work so well. Even you were surprised. The speaker-room interface is a huge factor in the system sound and unfortunately, I’m not sure you can ever predict it. Narrow it down, yes, but not the final result.
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