My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
@jays_audio_lab This latest video blew a friend and I away with how non-subtle the difference in presentation is between the two cords (She prefers the warmth and resonance of #1; I prefer the clarity and resolution of #2.)
Much obliged, and keep up the fantastic content! |
@skebet and all who do not know about this Download the "Shazam" app on your phone. While playing the song from Jays video , (of course you cant be using your phone as your player or source of the music ) open the app and click the icon and Shazam... It tells you the name of the song and Artist.
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My findings are the same as those of skebet. The tonal balance of #2 shows more upper midrange and HF content. I understand the synergy advocates who might prefer #1. This is because the inherent tonal balance of the S7 speaker favors the brilliant tweeter. Actually, I believe the tweeter is accurate, but the rest of the drivers don't quite keep up with the tweeter's speed and resolution. Despite this, I like the S7 as the best speaker I have heard from Jay's videos. I enjoy the brilliant aspects of the S7 with the brilliant/revealing Boulder electronics, AND #2 power cord. But the synergy camp will prefer toning down the brilliance of the rest of the system with #1 power cord. My guess is #2 is Transparent, #1 is Shunyata. Except for my Shunyata Denali which is brilliant and detailed, I didn't like the flagship Shunyata Sigma power cord and preferred the more brilliant Shunyata Venom HC which is just high quality 9 gauge. Whatever filter networks are in the Sigma, they produce a more laid back softer sound. |
It is easy to see the various, multiple, compound problems with these "evaluative" videos continues without attention, disruption, or resolution. The biggest issue plaguing this undertaking and effort are the underlying house voltage delivery inadequacies and uncorrected deficiencies that have been previously revealed, explained, and detailed. As I previously mentioned parts of the US are known for "third-world" quality utility delivery systems but that should not hinder, dissuade, or prevent Jay from attempting their proper correction. What is particularly odd about the "evaluative" video is that uses power cords as the variable yet power is the primary, underlying, over riding defficiency in this music reproduction system so you are hearing distortions, anomalies, and irregularities that are the result and consequence of the power problems plus all the issues previously defined with the You Tube production itself which includes spurious unexplained signals |
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I walked into the basketball gym and two guys were playing 1:1. Both are great players and many of us wondered who would win. Lots of us saw different things they were doing and it was fun to talk about it. At the end, everyone had a fun time with it. One guy though (let’s name him Dude) pointed out that the rim might be slightly bent downward, the floor wasn’t perfectly clean, the humidity level was higher which caused the players to sweat more, and he pointed out some other problems with the 1:1 game. Everyone then realized it was stupid of them to believe that this was all for fun, and Dude felt good that everyone went home disappointed. :-) Oh, sorry, actually, what happened was that everyone had a great time and didn’t really care what Dude said. Thanks for the fun WC! Dave |
clearthink, You make valid points about technical problems in these videos. However, the differences I heard were consistent among the several songs, and quite easy to hear, even with all the flaws you mention. But the flaws are consistent, and a relative constant, so they cancel out, making it very possible to form reliable conclusions. I used two lousy computers but came to the same conclusion that I preferred presentation 2, and I am quite confident that it is the Transparent. If Jay says it is not the Transparent, I made an arbitrary error, no big deal. I have heard excellent violinists and mediocre violinists play the same crummy factory violin as well as a great sounding violin. No matter which violin, the big differences in the sound are 99% due to the violinist rather than the violin. The crummy violin is like YouTube, which still lets us hear the big differences between these power cords. |
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It is strange, unusual, and odd that some here can't have "fun" if others reveal actual data, facts, and simple, basic, elemental deficiencies in something as basic as a music reproduction system's electrical foundation. Pointing out these irregularities is not "complaining" but just a sign of living in the real world where facts, science, and the human brain can work together to yield improved performance, outcome, and results. It should also be mentioned given your objections that the poster here is selling, promoting, and recommending battery power systems that cost tens of thousands of US dollars EACH of course that is fine and but for many it is wiser, more "expedient" and possible even safer to call an electrician first. You can have fun with a broken toy but I prefer a fully functioning "toy."
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It’s so clear to me that most folks on here aren’t interested in hearing from the "gurus" or "crusaders" who preach HARD on here yet they don’t even have a system listed on their profile. That’s like me going into a Mercedes-Benz dealership and criticize the prices of these vehicles yet little do they know that i took the bus to get to the dealer... Some people want to eat caviar but pay beef jerky prices. Some others want to drive a Mercedes Benz S class but want to pay Hyundai prices. If they can’t afford the caviar or Mercedes S class, they have crucify those who have the means to buy either as well as lecture the masses how stupid it is to pay so much money for a car or caviar. Maybe i should join a Ferrari forum and tell them that i know of a faster car for less money and save them from paying expensive vehicle maintenance? Hmmm 🤔 i wonder how that would work out for me once they find out i drive a Ford...
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I don’t see anyone "preaching" here. What are the comments that you think "most folks" find objectionable? Why not bring your complaint to the moderators rather than lecture us? Jay, you’re a dealer selling a $16K battery. You might want to consider looking at how some of the other dealers on A’gon conduct themselves, because that’s the kind of treatment I think "most folks" who are audiophiles expect. I don't think your silly claim that you're being "crucified" here is a sound business plan. |
Jay already has dedicated lines. Maybe he didn't go all out and get an electrician to tap into the local power station, but he found that the Stromtank battery/inverter has much greater benefits than any other ancillary component. Those on the other thread (accessible from near the top of page 406 of this thread) know this from their other battery/inverters. The technical people think they can explain sound differences solely from technical analysis. But they have canyon sinkhole sized blind spots about which measurements and factors correlate with which sonic criteria. They should re-read my last post that whatever factor X distortion is in YouTube or one's electrical system, that factor X is the same for both power cord videos, so the perceived differences are quite obvious which everyone has noted. |
It isn't clear what Jay's AC power looks like, although the last time the topic arose it looked like there was a welder or a/c unit on one of his "dedicated" audio lines. It's a topic Jay tends to prefer to avoid, hence the threat that he'll take "corrective action" if anyone questions him. |
Actually, you don’t know that. Power quality can vary considerably, from time of day, day of week, even minute-to-minute, depending on where you live and what your local grid looks like. Isn't that part of why Jay got into the $16K battery business in the first place? And of course, if that a/c or arc welder that’s on Jay’s audio circuit powers on, all bets are off.
Maybe. I have dedicated, derated lines and power conditioning and that works in my system. I think it’s cool how some are willing to go the battery route, but that’s not for me. I like the simplicity of getting relatively clean, stable AC power. Although I’ve gone to a lot of trouble to do that, it’s been much less expensive than buying a bank of $16K batteries. In any event, this isn’t about whose system is "best," is it? That seems like a silly debate. Aren’t we all here to have fun? |
"Relatively" clean, stable AC power? Jay had many power conditioners, but the Stromtank produced another world of benefits. There are many cheap alternatives to the Stromtank, as noted on the other thread. Nobody knows yet which is best. To learn the truth, the only way is to try for example, a single Amperetime 200 amp-hr battery + charger, and Giandel 2200 or 5000 inverter, for a modest $1-2K. |
Understood! What I find interesting to question is: What is the benefit of something like a $16K Stromtank battery as compared to a clean, stable, filtered AC line? I suspect the difference in that case is much less than it is for Jay with his problematic AC power. (Let's set aside the fact that I don't think the battery would be sufficient to power even one of my amplifiers.) Jay doesn't seem inclined to address his AC power issues, so we may never know the answer for sure.
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For goodness sake, what aspect of this discussion do you find to be an "argument?" Why is it that asking questions, or raising concerns, is characterized as an "argument?" This is becoming one of the most unusual threads on A'gon - and it's from a dealer who is presumably seeking to generate some sales. Truly strange! |
When one hears ad infinitum that nobody really cares for the opinions they are presenting, yet they persist in repeating the same tired objections, it’s akin to an argument.
To be clear, you have every right to post, as does Viber (who often does the same thing), but congrats, you’ve made him seem like the rational defender of the thread, haha (not a rip on Viber - he makes good points occasionally when not pushing his preferences) |
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Now these, below, are arguments, and even rise to the level of being argumentative. You'll never see any content from me like that. I'm here to talk about audio.
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Nothing is ever going to be perfect or even approach perfect when doing YT comparisons of products - there are so many variables . Even hearing the same system in person in a store vs. your own home will most likely be different. Yes, WC is sharing his system as he always has, and yes, he now has some products he is a dealer for. If folks want to purchase his products based upon YT videos, well, that’s their prerogative. I’m guessing though that they will get WC’s take on the equipment comparisons - how he hears it in his room - and then go from there. If I can’t hear the equipment in my room before I purchase, then I will typically look at user reviews, as well as have a conversation with the Dealer. I just don’t see a reason to pick on the YT videos, knowing already that they will never be perfect and never fully represent what’s actually being heard in the room. I liked viber6’s comment about the consistency of the flaws and still being able to compare YT videos. I also like Jay’s videos that typically follow - the ones that describe what he heard in the room, what he preferred, and why. Dave |
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Pretending you know "what most of us" feel and suggesting "Why don’t you do yourself and us a favor and move on" is argumentative. I understand that you don’t see it that way but the deletion of that post suggests the moderators don’t agree with you. Why is it that we can't talk audio on this thread without provoking this sort of animosity? |
Cleeds, Actually you do have a valid THEORETICAL point that AC power can vary from minute to minute. For this reason, if I find that component X sounds better than Y, I must repeat the A/B several times to be sure. On my first A/B, it could be that the power quality was better for X, which gave it an advantage. That assumes that the power for Y a few minutes later suddenly got poorer. So I do another A/B 20 min later. If I still find that X is better than Y, it is more likely that the reason is that X is truly better than Y, rather than if the power quality rapidly kept changing and changing to favor X. You can do this a few more times, and if X is consistently better than Y, it is much more likely that X is truly better than Y rather than I was consistently fooled by changing power quality. More importantly, you asked, "What is the benefit of something like a $16K Stromtank battery as compared to a clean, stable, filtered AC line? I suspect the difference in that case is much less than it is for Jay with his problematic AC power." First, it isn't clear that Jay really has problematic AC power. I think Jay already answered your question. He installed good outlets and dedicated lines, tried respected conditioners like Shunyata Denali, Audioquest 7000, but found that the Stromtanks blew these away, including the PS Audio Power Plant 20 flagship battery/inverter. Even if Jay has problematic AC power, I would think that the Stromtank would show greater benefit than it would show if someone in a rural, sparsely populated area tried all this. THAT would be interesting to find out, whether reconstruction of a perfect sine wave produces better sonic purity for that someone whose AC power is already low in distortion and noise. My Shunyata Denali conditioner yields a big improvement in every sonic parameter, and that's without any work in my 1963 NYC apartment building. I will make a small $1-2K investment in the Amperetime battery and big Giandel inverter to see whether it is an improvement over my Denali. The next step will be adding the Denali downstream from the Giandel to get the filtering benefit that ricevs claims is the best way to go, at least with the Puritan 156. I will be honest and report here and on the other thread.
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The PS Audio Powerplant is not a battery/inverter. It is a regenerator. It runs off the wall power......it converts AC to DC just like any amp....then it generates an AC sine wave and amplifies it to 120V........so its basically a big power amp running off the wall.....very different from a battery powered inverter like the $1950 2500 watt big Giandel system (5000 watt inverter, one 200 amp hour battery and a charger) or the $27,000 2500 watt Stromtank. I imagine Viber is going to buy a 100 amp hour battery....so that is $400 less. Pretty easy on the wallet....these Giandel/battery things. If you have your whole system on an inverter....you ALWAYS have the same sound. |
The few details Jay mentioned about his AC power revealed some issues and he has dodged the topic since. It looks like he has an A/C unit or arc welder on his "dedicated lines," as well as some potential code violations. Perhaps it was those problems that led him to try the Stromtank, although addressing the AC issues is probably the less expensive solution. Of course, if he’s in a rental, he may not have any choice.
That will be an interesting experiment! |
My lines are dedicated lines...coming from the panel box inside the house and the ac system is connected on the panel outside the house. I don't understand this narrative that i have compromised outlets. I have 5 dedicated outlets with 10 gauge wire and aftermarket outlets. 20a, 20a, 30a, 30a, 30a-220v. |
Ricevs, True about the PS Audio Powerplant, thanks. However, once it generates the DC, it functions like an inverter. The real issue here is whether the unique types of distortions from an inverter are qualitatively greater than those from good conditioners. Stromtank distortions are rated below 2%, but PS Audio Powerplants reduce AC THD to about 0.1% distortion. Yet Jay found the Stromtanks sound much better than PSA. The unique distortions from the inverters are not characterized. One more nail in the coffin for the measurements-only school of fantasy doctrinaire claims. Listening is required to properly answer the question posed by cleeds, whether battery/inverters sound purer than conditioners and dedicated lines. The Giandel 5000 puts out 5000 watt-hr continuous, 10,000 peak, when used with two Amperetime 200 amp-hr batteries for a total cost of $2800. The competition is the S-tank 5000 for about $50K or so, for handling a complete system with power amps as well as front end. |
Do you have 30A devices (receptacles) on those 30A lines? If so, when you test power cords, do you change the connectors to 30A plugs? If you have 20A receptacles on the 30A lines, in many places you’d have a code violation and it’s a potential safety hazard. So that’s problematic. That 30A 220V line is a real puzzle. Do you actually mean it’s 30A 240VAC? Is that a hardwired connection? If that’s not for an arc welder, dryer, or A/C, what’s it for? As for some of the spurious noise that was detected in your videos (graphs were posted earlier in the thread) - have you hunted down the source? There were some speculations here that they originated in your AC lines. |
I’m no electrician... I leave that to the pros. I pull out my wallet and pay the pros to do the work that the manufacturers recommend. It’s simple: pay a dude to run wires from your circuit breaker directly into your room. This isn’t rocket science. Grab one stupid end of a thick wire and plug it into the breaker panel and run the stupid ass wire through the wall and make it come out through a hole in the wall and then grab a decent outlet and connect the wire into the outlet. Lastly, make sure the outlets are in phase so there is no bass cancellation issues. Let’s not make this job complicated folks:
Step by step how to do dedicated lines for your system. I believe my 6 year old can understand how to do the job too. Now I’m anxiously waiting for the bashing to commence by the electrical gurus that lurk on here.
Oh yea - stromtank still embarrasses any dumb dedicated lines. Just wait until i drop the video of a guy who i sold a STROMTANK to and how his system has transformed even more than the $15,000 dollars he paid to some electrical gurus who supposedly also did Michael Fremers electrical work. Just wait and see... The proof is in the pudding so just wait and see...
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I’m sure you do believe that your six year old could install your dedicated lines. And that’s exactly how you’ve ended up with the AC problems that you have, including that funky 30A 220VAC line that your stereo shares with an arc welder or dryer or whatever. Is that hardwired, or cord-and-plug?
Your six year old is mistaken about the bass cancellation thing. But hey - he’s only six! It’s increasingly easy to see now how your AC issues led you to experiment with batteries as a "solution." They're really more of a workaround than a solution. |
@jays_audio_lab thanks for the update and wonderful news! will that mean goodbye to the boulder equipment.lol |
epic shootout perhaps… congrats wc no doubt gryphon and boulder confident curious if/how they would describe their ultimate sonic goals similarly/differently at that level of components. of course would love to know their favorite server/speaker/cabling combos but no luck getting that intel for obvious reasons. that’s in part why i tune in here. jay’s evaluations are incredibly valuable in that way |
