wow, you listen at 55-60db? i don't think i can own a speaker of this caliber if i can only listen at 55-60db. That is almost like no volume for me. There won't be any bass, no oomph, no nothing, but high frequencies and mids. As a matter of fact, i have probably damaged my hearing somewhat from the constant exposure to 87-92 db over the past few years.
This morning i started with the luxman combo. The belcanto will go next in about one hour.
i am starting to get an itch to try the 1.2kws and the audio research ref 6 that has been sitting here on my shelf. Heck, i may even try the mcintosh d150 dac with the 1.2kws to see how it sounds. |
Whitecamaross!
Listening at 92 db average for hours can cause severe ear-damage and even permanent hearing impairment.
I listen normally to my PL500 II at a far more moderate level at around 55-60 db, although it is fun to crank up the volume sometimes.
At these volumes the PL 500 II comes already to life here, with the output on my Ref5SE sometimes only at the 2-3 mark, out of 104 possible.
No changes in sound when listening to high or low volumes either, except for the volume output.
Note that a 3 db increase in volume means you are doubling the volume!
On my work I have to wear ear-protection with volumes of 80 db and up, so that is also what I am doing there.
I can't comment on the Bel Canto or the Luxman combo, did not heard either of them.
Enjoy listening, take care!
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whitecamaross - I actually came very close to pulling the trigger on the Luxman 900 combo - until I heard the Luxman MQ-300 tube amp with the 900 pre-amp. Of course the 8WPC output mandates a correct speaker choice but with the flagship Paradigm Persona 9H, that was not an issue!
I have owned the Luxman D-06u SACD player - excellent player, I can only imagine how good the 08 sounds!
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That’s exactly what I’ve come to find out. I will be doing more listening today and will give more feedback. I feel as if Both set ups are so amazing that really nothing sounds bad at all. One doesn’t trump the other. The one thing I could see as an advantage is that with the luxman you have the flexibility of changing out your source to something even better which should elevate its performance. The Belcanto doesn’t really allow you to improve its performance unless you try different power cords, cables etc but you’re pretty much stuck with its dac. I’d love to bring the luxman d08u sacd and do more listening. This would make it more of a fair race because now you’d be using an all luxman set up retailing for 48k vs 50k.
Today I am fully rested and will continue doing more listening so let’s see what I hear today. |
Interesting observations. Just goes to prove that at that level, more $$$ do not always equate to better sound.
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30 min into the 2nd session: i find BOTH to be more similar than different. This time around, i am using my hard drive and i find the luxman having more bottom end. This doesn't mean the bel canto isn't pushing down low. I just find the luxman to have one extra layer of "boom" that i am not picking up on the bel canto.
The mids are again extremely close and similar. The only thing that i occasionally hear is a tad more music in the background of the bel canto. I feel like sometimes there are some instruments that are more obvious to hear on the bel canto from time to time. Instruments that seem to be backstage on the luxman.
The highs are excellent on both, but i have to give the luxman the edge on here. I feel like the highs on ANY class A component (yes the luxman has some class a) are hard to beat and this would be the hardest thing to equal for class d technology.
Right now, it is beyond hard to select a winner. It is still early and i still need to hear much more material. So far i call it a draw based on their strengths and it would be much easier to pick a winner if i only heard a particular kind of music. For example, if classic rock was my main music, lynyrd skynyrd, Ozzy, etc then i would pick the luxman because it does not get too "excited" with the highs and it keeps them at bay which allows the songs to come out smoother and without sounding too hard.
However, if i heard more instruments where there is drum whacks, quick transients, dynamics then i'd select the bel canto because it can just hit each note and keep up with the pace of the music without feeling "out of breath". It is crazy how at this level things become harder and harder to pick apart. It almost becomes "the equipment that sounds best with what you listen to".
Aesthetically speaking, they both look solid and well built. They are just so different yet beautiful to look at. Song after song, it becomes more difficult to choose a winner because right when you think "oh the luxman for sure" then you play the next track and the bel canto blows you away... |
I just installed river on my MacBook. I am currently going through my hard drive which sucks because i would prefer to use tidal, but that apparently isn't possible through jriver.
That said, i certainly hear the instant change in sound from using the ethernet connection.
By the way i had to give my ears a well needed 2 hour rest after listening for hours. I am getting ready to begin another session between both set ups.
Here we go!! |
Luxman Combo lists at 30K...so you can get them both for about 25K |
I thought the Luxman combo retailed for $40K? Also, try the Black using Ethernet or phono inputs. Ethernet is much better than USB.
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@whitecamaross You mention MacBook Pro via USB and then the PS Direct Stream....
Can you share what your front end(s) is or are? Thank you. |
Ok guys, the initial shootout has begun about 3 hours ago. i made sure i used a sound decibel meter in order to do an apples to apples comparison. Decibel average is 92 db for both systems so both are almost near the same loudness from my listening chair.
First up, the belcanto black using a macbook pro via usb:
Amazing soundstage width and depth. Speakers seem to be larger than life in terms of wall to wall sound they present. Very "clean" sound with lots of "pop" when the song calls for it. I also hear certain details that i never heard before in my music. Vocals are clear, mids are there, bass is there. Nothing is lacking. I am very impressed with the entire presentation and have never heard anything digital sound this good before.
Luxman combo: i used the ps audio direct stream as my source. Immediate sense of smoothness and silkiness with no loss of detail or sparkle. The highs are a tad more refined to my ears. The mids are about dead even and the bass is very close. The belcanto has a tad bigger soundstage.
With that said, this is a very VERY CLOSE race here. I actually have to dig up different material in order to find the differences here which brings me to my next point: if rock is the music selection and you love music to be around 95dbs or so, the belcanto can get just a tad "shouty" but that is not all the time. I love the detail presented by both set ups and their weaknesses and strengths.
The take away from this preliminary shootout is how far class d has come. I mean, i am comparing an outstanding solid state product against a class d product and i am having to pick apart the differences. Granted, we are talking about a 50,000 dollar class d product here. Incredible what i have witnessed here. I still have alot more to listen to before i even decide what my next move will be. i could live happy with either set up to be entirely honest. |
Actually, Jon Stronczer of BelCanto told me that Black's power conversion stage may be on customized NCore modules, rather than on standard NC1200. Hi WhiteCamaross, Bel Canto Black is -- together with the Rowland M825 stereo and M925 monos -- at the top of the NCore N1200 implementation piramid... And like all NC1200-based amplifiers, it is likely to require extensive break-in to reach best performance.
While I have not had the opportunity of having a Black in my own system, I suspect that full break-in might require anywhere from 1K hours to 1.5K hours from the time it emerged from the factory.
Any idea how many hours of operation the unit that you are receiving has already?
Even if it were fully broken in, the unit is likely to require two to three days of grinding some signal to restabilize after transportation in the cold of some truck or plane.
In case you asked... Yes, I heard Bel Canto Black at RMAF a few years ago... And yes, I was extremely impressed.
G.
. |
The best sound from the Black is through Analog in from LP or Ethernet
connection. If you want the best from Black, you need the ASC2 front end with
its combination of features and sonic improvement over ASC1. The ASC2 front end is a hardware update. It really lets the units sing at their best.
Care with power is critical -- no power
regenerators for the amp sections.
I know you love the Luxman, and maybe you should stop selling it, but you are in for a treat with the Black. |
Looking forward to the shoot-out whitecamaross
Happy Listening!
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Normally SS would win but the Bel Canto is made in the Twin Cities where the smartest Americans live . It's to Audio what Burgundy is to wine .
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Interesting guys! I have 5 people that are also looking forward to it. 3 are putting money on the Belcanto and 2 on luxman. This will be the best shoot out. Purely refined solid state vs purely refined class d. |
I have not heard the Luxman, but have heard the Bel Canto Black. As long as it is broken in, my money would be on the Bel Canto.
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Looking forward to your impressions of the $50K BC Black! I'm not a betting man but my money would be on the Luxman beating it out in overall sonic performance. I've yet to hear any implementation of Class D be competitive in presenting as natural and engaging musical portrayal. Time will tell...
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Tomorrow the belcanto Black arrives at my door. My connection said it will destroy the rest of my set ups by miles. I told him the Luxman combo won’t go anywhere unless something else beats it here in my space so he sent me his set up for me to try and even paid shipping. He said that’s how confident he feels that it will just maul everything I have here.
Well, for 50,000 dollars it better make my Luxman combo sound like a bose stereo.... |
740p loses to the Luxman 900u but that’s expected. The 740p is amazing for the Money though and if was building a system on a budget then this would be my preamp.
Audio research ref 6 is amazing as well but tubes tend to need to be matched to the right speakers. For example, the best preamp I’ve heard with panels would be the the reference 6. With conventional drivers then I prefer the Luxman.
Pass labs xp30 was great too. |
simaudio 740p/ luxman 900u amp: very nice and clean sounding. Less dynamic than the set up above but that’s due to less power. That said, it is still quite impressive when using both.
I'm curious as to what your thoughts will be on the 740p after comparing it to more $$ preamps. I replaced a 600i Integrated with a 250.8+X10 preamp and was a little under whelmed (at least when you factor in MSRP). I then replaced the X10 with the 740P and the difference was amazing and I would say larger than the initial change from the Sim integrated to the Pass separates. I'm very happy with the 250.8+740P combo :) |
Some of you had asked me about my thoughts on ayre. I had owned the qb9 dac and it wasn’t anything especial. Then I got feedback from a well known audiophile and he said his pass labs 350.8 nearly equaled his mx twenty Monos which cost 32k retail and he sold them right away. He felt disgusted by ayre and their highly priced components.
My gut feeling is that ayre is overpriced and not worth their asking price by any means. They are charging an arm and a leg and they aren’t anything that would make you be like “oh my god”.
Would I ever try it ? Sure but I won’t pay anything close to their asking price.
This is WHY I have been a fan of pass labs for a very long time and now I am a luxman fan too.
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Thanks Clemente. I appreciate you following my thread. I’ve had a great amount of people message me directly as well and I thank everyone for following my journey. I expect 2018 will put more amplifiers in front of me. |
whitecamaross OP297 posts ,
the year is almost over and I think this year I went through about 30 amplifiers. So far, the amps that really left an impression are the pass labs 200.5, pass labs xs150, and the luxman 900u. These are the top 3 amps of 2017 for me. Far superior than any of the rest I’ve owned. ..................................... Hello, I am from Portugal I've accompanied this interesting topic has had a lot of work Thank you Merry Christmas to everyone, Best Regards Clemente V. . |
Thanks Greg. It’s certainly a great joyful sound with luxman. The issue here lies with the acceptance from fellow American audiophiles. Most won’t invest their money in foreign products. This is in fact what makes external offferings become less appealing and for the most part never given a fair shot. My stepfather has a luxman integrates he bought in 1995 and the volume knob finally went out this year. That’s 22 years of flawless performance. What else can you ask for ? Most current audio gear doesn’t come close to this level of reliability.
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@whitecamaross
I have enjoyed reading your "Audio Chronicals" over the past year or so. I think most of us have gone through or continue to go through this process -but nowhere new the level you have! Having been a huge Luxman fan since the 70's, I have owned several pieces of their gear. I have heard your Luxman combo a few months ago and it is sublime. Congrats and thanks for keeping us informed with your findings!
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I unpacked the luxman combo yesterday and left music playing all night long until just now and it’s just insane how clean, smooth, detailed, deep, wide, and engaging these 2 pieces are. It sounds so HUGE with my platinum 500s.
I tried several set ups:
luxman 900u preamp/ 1.2kw Monos: I liked the sound and it sounds very good overall. Big, more dynamic than with the 900u amp. It is really great at very loud decibels and doesn’t get shouty when cranked up.
simaudio 740p/ luxman 900u amp: very nice and clean sounding. Less dynamic than the set up above but that’s due to less power. That said, it is still quite impressive when using both.
Luxman combo: Gobbs of detail. The cleanest sound out of the different set ups above. The highs just glow and come at you with zero fatigue. Far greater midrange than the other set ups. It sounds very focused and makes just take notice of so much information that your ears never picked up before. This is so intoxicating which leaves you wanting to change nothing else at all. Makes you nervous to even move to try a different cable. Simply lovely.
The take away here is that the luxman combo didn’t make my electrostatics come to life. It may have been because they needed more wattage or even more voltage than a single luxman amp has.
That said, the platinum 500s don’t really need massive juice to get going. I love the synergy im hearing right now.
I can’t think of another set up right now that I like better than this. As some of you know, I’m a BIG PASS LABS fan. I love their stuff but I will be honest and say I don’t miss their heat or sound when I listen to luxman.
As bad as I want to try the boulder 2060, I really don’t want to mess with 270 lbs right now. Maybe I will sell the 1.2kws and get the boulder ? Who knows... I’m on cloud 9 with these pieces right now.
the year is almost over and I think this year I went through about 30 amplifiers. So far, the amps that really left an impression are the pass labs 200.5, pass labs xs150, and the luxman 900u. These are the top 3 amps of 2017 for me. Far superior than any of the rest I’ve owned. |
I believe you mentioned it earlier in the post ' I think you need two 900u amps.
I heard the Luxman 900 combo with two 900u here at the Vietnam High end audio show a few weeks back and it was damn nice. |
sooooooo i just pulled out the box the luxman 900u amp for the firs time and from a dead cold start with 0 miles on it, i am hearing cleaner, clearer, wider soundstage than the 1.2kw monos. That said, it is NOT AS DYNAMIC as the 1.2kws. This is expected because the 1.2kw monos have more power. |
I am very afraid of my back too... but that boulder 2060 keeps grabbing me and I’ve been thinking a lot about it. Just need to figure out a few things first but that amp might be a game changer. I just need to listen to it first. |
ron17 is right - make sure you have some help! If I was nearby I would definitely come over and help. Take care of that back!
Dave
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The Boulder 2060..... Oh no what about your back! |
Alright guys,
i have received my luxman pieces today. I also have the Belcanto black system in route to me and possibly will end up buying the boulder 2060 as well !!
Things are about to get interesting!
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Thanks! for the update- whitecamaross 3rd time a charm? Happy Listening! |
I just sat down to listen to a few other songs i wanted to hear and wow i can't believe how much this simaudio/mcintosh/monitor audio pl500ii has grown on me.
Yesterday i connected the 585 integrated and although it did sound good, i found it a tad bright to my liking and it lost the depth that i find with the simaudo/mcintosh combo. That said, let's not forget that the difference in horsepower is HUGE between the integrated and the 1.2kws.
That said, this experiment showed me that you can never have too much horsepower. The authority, driver grip, soundstage width is simply hard to dismiss when you go from a massive powerful amp to something that is 1/5 of the power.
I will go on the record and say that i am not a mcintosh fan. I feel their amplifiers have fallen behind the offerings from others. That said, the 1.2kws buy you this:
1. 1200 watts of class ab juice
2. Good looks
3. Great punch when called for
4. No heat of any kind
5. Ability to sell anytime you want
So if you have an outstanding preamp, the 1.2kws sound excellent. I don't care for the mcintosh c1100 since i feel my ref 6 preamp killed it.
Anyhow, I will be receiving a couple of pieces next week (luxman 900u preamp and 900u amp). Yes this will be my THIRD TIME buying this combo and this should already be telling you that it has to be something special if i am buying it for a 3rd time. I have NEVER BOUGHT anything 3 times. |
hey guys, sorry but with the holidays it has been very busy for me. That said, i did have a chance to connect the mark levinson to the platinums and i did not like what i heard. i found the combination a bit too bright or forward sounding when i cranked it up.
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Keep auditioning and writing -whitecamaross
Happy Listening!
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He went back to Bose! LOL! |
What’s new? We miss your updates...
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Whitecamaross, thanks again.
It’s my understanding that Audio Research works well with a lot of other brands, as in my own setup. One of the exceptions is ARC with McIntosh, frequently mentioned so.
Indeed trying Ref 6 with GS150 on the PL500 mk2 I can imagine it will give you a whole different outcome.
D’Agostino comes also in mind. Very clean, dynamic and open sound.
I heard MC1.2 KW in an all top of the line McIntosh system with B & W 802 d3. I was not impressed to say at least, dull and boring. IMHO.
I am glad for you that it works well in your setup.
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Excellent thread, thanks for the ongoing effort to share your findings!
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Reference 6: outstanding preamp with an amazing bottom end and Highs. The best highs I’ve heard with electrostatics
No52: excellent highs and mids
luxman900u: excellent smooth sound with insane soundstage. Best highs I’ve heard with tweeters. |
I just purchased Clarus Crimson speaker cables. I submit they take the PL500s to another level compared to the Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 speaker cables that I had. I know there are no absolutes in Audio, but if possible you should get a loaner pair and try them. Of course everything is subjective and you may come to a different conclusion.
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whitecamaross, thanks.
Now I like to hear the Luxman 900u preamp, although this is nearly impossible in my own setup.
Do you have any thoughts about the Mark Levinson no 52 preamp compared to ARC Ref 6 or Luxman 900u.
Keep going with your enjoyable and interesting thread! |
Sequence: I love the sound of these with 1.2kw monos and the simaudio 740p and I’ll be honest and say it grabs me more than with the reference 6. I don’t find as much synergy with these speakers and reference 6. That said, the Luxman 900u preamp is amazing with these speakers. Things just pop out of the speakers in a crazy way. I am probably going to use it as my reference with these speakers. Im just shocked at how much better these speakers are than the 300ii. Those sounded dull in comparison. I almost can’t believe they share the same tweeter.
One last thing, although I think these are very efficient speakers, they really open up with more power. I tried the Luxman amp and I feel like 300 Watts is too little. The 1.2kw are actually 1600watts !
Has anyone ever biamped these .?????? |
I'd like to hear any thoughts if you listen to a Vidar or a Benchmark amp...
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Whitecamaross, I have also the Monitor Audio PL 500 mk2 and I like it a lot.
Is in another league compared to the PL300 mk2, which is already a terrific speaker, I heard them side by side a few times.
No ear fatique here even after hours of listening.
Be sure to use them on spikes, included in the package and I have a stainless steel disc under the spikes, custom made, which is a big improvement over the original foots.
Or, as some say, it is even better using them with Stillpoints.
I am very interested about your findings regarding the best amps for the PL 500.
I use them with ARC Ref 5SE, which is more laidback than the Ref 6, together with Krell mono 400E, far better by the way than your 402E stereo amp.
No computer audio here, my good old Sony serves me well, but I hope to change asap with the likes of an Esoteric K1 or similar. (if there is something similar lol).
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I have enjoyed reading this thread- whitecamaross
you are fortunate to have such high-end gear rotating in and out of your system for evaluation. Yes, system synergy is key. And as you have discovered takes time and patience to achieve. Keep auditioning and writing. As time allows evaluate and write more on the ML No. 585 integrated amp.
Happy Listening!
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today i learned that system synergy is really an important element that i haven't gone into much detail about. I just took out the luxman c900u out of the system and plugged in the reference 6 and i feel as if my system took a few steps back in terms of clarity or soundstage depth. It still sounds amazing, but i feel the luxman opened up different layers of sound that are less pronounced on the reference 6.
If i go back to my time with the clx speakers, the reference 6 sounded SPECTACULAR and far better than the luxman. So this indeed is a case of system synergy and what goes with what.
Anyhow, i am almost tempted to buy a second luxman m900u amp and run them both in mono mode along with the c900u. Something tells me that this combination would put me at a level that i may have never experienced. I am on the fence and totally feel like i should do this and go with dual 900u in mono mode which would create 750 watt monos into 8ohms.
Decisions decisions.... |
There are so many variables that go into picking "the best" and it's really an impossible task. I commend whitecamaross for all his efforts and hard work. I sincerely appreciate you putting into words all your experiences. Thank you. Once it's out here in the world, it's easy to second guess
(please no one take any offense to this statement - professional reviewers take the hit as well). I have done the same thing. Discover an amp in the context of a system and have that Holy S moment, only to realize something better/different comes along. Is it really better or just better in that system?
We do love to experiment, but please enjoy the music and camaraderie along the way. We all learn from each other.
Keep it up
whitecamaross!
ps, Love your comments re: the MC1.2KW amps. they have always been a dream amp despite those who tell me to stay away. :)
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