Weren't you supposed to have Pass amps to audition by now?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Stay tuned... 200 lbs each mono. I’m excited to get hands on them. I’ve had an eye on them for quite sometime. After doing my own research, I think they will bring a dog fight to the 925s and Luxman 900u. Will they catapult themselves all the way to the #1 spot ? We shall see.. the 925s are still the #1 amp I’ve ever owned. |
The review posted on the Merrill Element 118 strikes me as a fairly honest portrayal of an amp that he believes is "accurate, revealing and natural." Put the last 3 words together and you have just about everything desirable, unless you deliberately want euphonic, colored sound. In the long run, detail with naturalness trumps euphonic flavoring as you realize that your flavoring has perhaps somewhat blurred the music and then you want to try another flavoring. My only reservation with the review is that he gives much of the criteria only 4.5 out of 5, so in that sense the review is somewhat lukewarm considering the price. We have seen many reviews where a product scores 5/5 for much less money. I now have 250 hours on my Mytek Brooklyn Amp for retail $2k, and so far it seems neutral, detailed and natural to deserve a 4.5/5 in most areas, so an amp with SOTA aspirations ought to be clearly 5/5 for $38k. Maybe this reviewer is trying to be polite and politically correct to not antagonize his contacts who like euphonic sound, so it could be a glowing review depending on your interpretation of his psychology. I am sure Guido will be more informative in his hopefully upcoming review. |
oops Fixed Typo and spacing I think most all of the older Keb Mo is much better Like: June 7, 1994 Keb’ Mo’Debut album as "Keb’ Mo’" Won W.C. Handy Award for Best Country/Acoustic Blues Album of the Year, 1995 June 18, 1996 Just Like You Won Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album,1997August 25, 1998 Slow Down Won Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album,1999 October 10, 2000 The Door Nominated Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album September 19, 2003 Martin Scorsese Presents the Blues: Keb’ Mo’Part of the series, The Blues February 10, 2004 Keep It Simple Won Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album, 2005 |
@axememan I think most all of the older Keb Mo is much better Like: June 7, 1994 Keb' Mo'Debut album as "Keb' Mo'" Won W.C. Handy Award for Best Country/Acoustic Blues Album of the Year, 1995 June 18, 1996Just Like YouWon Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album,1997August 25, 1998Slow DownWon Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album, 1999October 10, 2000The DoorNominated Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album September 19, 2003Martin Scorsese Presents the Blues: Keb' Mo'Part of the series, The Blues February 10, 2004Keep It SimpleWon Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album, 2005 |
Hello @rsf507, actually no... I am not implying at all that the unit under review is a pre-production unit. The physical description seems to suggest a production unit.. Rather, the reviewer is writing a lot but saying little, except for stating in a couple of places that the device uses GaN transistors with negligible recovery time, does not use feedback, is a powerhouse "brute, sounds matter of fact, is very expensive, and may be best used with companion devices that come a smidjin short of statement level. Had I not heard an already excellent 118 prototype in my own system, and thus know better than to trusting the article, I might end up dismissing 118 as a middling device... And rest assured, middling is far from the sonic/music experience that 118 delivers. Saluti, G. e |
@guidocorona are you implying that the ETM review was not a current production? I was under the impression that the Element 118 was just being released and a review takes at least 3 months to complete which would lead one to believe the ETM “sample” Element 118 was a pre-production model. Would this be an accurate statement? |
Yep, the review does not give the faintest idea of the exceptional capabilities of the Merrill Element 118.... "The device is exceptionally capable, and deserves a review that describes at some length what the device "does for living". Element 118 is far from being a simple musclebound brute without sublety. The fact that it does not slide into facile euphony does not mean that it has no heart or delicacy... On the contrary! I'm starting to think that I might want to review the production level 118 after all. Saluti, G. does not |
For those interested in the new Merrill Audio Element 118 amps: http://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1018/Merrill_Audio_Element_118_Monoblock_Amplifiers_Review.htm |
My cable process: 1_ I refine my options amoung brands that makes sense. ( pedigree and science) 2_ I listen and compare between #1 options, let my ears decide. Better process, much less mistake probability, compulsive buy probability, buyer’s remorse probability. Much higher resale value probability. tecknik, +1 about your post |
I don’t think that having a patent on something makes it sound better. So many people get hung up on measurements.The smart people let their ears decide ...not measurements. So much in Audio can be heard but not measured..Most people do not buy based on measurements. They buy because of what they hear.That is my point. Can you measure what cryoing does . I seriously doubt it. |
I,m a big believer in cables and have been for almost 30 years in this hobby. I always enjoy reading when people change there mind about cables. I was a believer when cryogenically treatment cables started back in the 90,s when most people thought it was snake oil, now it's an industry standard. For me the most important: Power PC IC SC Until you sort your power out you'll never get to hear what your system is capable of and that includes the PC, dedicated lines, conditioners of some sort and fuses if you have any. Sort the power out first. |
I do believe in cables. As I said before, I have an almost complete loom of Shunyata Zitron cables, except for speaker cables wich are Nordost. Both brands have patented their technology. Both brands are owned by engineers with long history, Shunyata in noise reducing hospital tech, Nordost in aerospace wiring. Both can explains with science and measurements the performance of their cables. So I don’t mind paying 2k for pair of Anaconda Zitron XLR. But I will never put 6k on a brand like SS that has nothing patented or scientifically explained. I call them the esoterism brands... SS is one of many. I will not name the others. Not the time nor the place to start this kind of debate. |
@techno_dude Have you heard them ? Purist Audio Design cables are also Very Expensive. I have owned many. They are outstanding !! Are they worth the price ? Only after hearing them can you decide that. If you do not believe in cables, you owe it to yourself to try B4 you criticize. You will hear a difference. If you don’t your system is most likely lacking. That is one thing that the Tekton Double Impact speakers with Purist Audio cables does very well . I can hear a difference when i change just the rectifier tube in the MC30s. or power tubes and even the pre-amp tubes. Don’t bad mouth something until you have heard it !! If your system is up to it , You will hear a difference in cables. The Biggest problem is that a lot of people do not have a system capable of hearing these differences, so when they try the cables , they cry foul , snake oil .. etc. This is exactly why many do Not believe. LOL?!! |
WC , like you, I did not believe before that power cables were the most important. I realized I was so wrong when I tried a Shunyata Alpha Digital pc on my dac. Try one , thank me later. It has some kind of filter in it that cleans everything. You never know your music has that haze over it, until you plug that cord into your dac ! |
Cables in order of which has more effect on a rig:My experience again and again indicates that the MOST critical cable in the system is the IC from line stage to amp. On your line stage, replace your power cord with a $20 power cord from Home Depot. Yes, there should be some noticeable losses. Next, put your power cord back here and replace your IC here to the amp with one from Home Depot. The result will be a disaster, i.e., a total loss of spatial information, harmonic information and decays.....if your system was ever capable of these going into the test. |
Brought the wireworld platinum 7 xlr on Friday. I proceeded to unplug my silver 8 and then when I began to listen to the platinums xlr I found them rather boomy, less detailed and smeared when compared to the silver 8 cables. Tried looking all over to place to see if there’s any sort of break in recommended on these and couldn’t find anything. That said, 48 hours of playing music non stop seems to have shifted things quite a bit. I’ll report back later next week. I want them to have at least 100 hours on them. |
@viber6 I understand where you are coming from. I have a felling that our musical tastes are probably quite different. I like a lot of Contemporary Blues Artist .. like Keb Mo, Buddy Guy, Derek Trucks, Tab Benoit, Robert Cray, Robben Ford...etc But, I also like Some Funk .. .like the Brand New Heavies,The New Mastersounds , Nightmares on Wax,Soopasoul, Galactic, Quantic,Soulive, Cookin On 3 Burners And some techno ,electronica stuff..like the Mushroom Jazz albums(dj Mark Farina) Kruder &Dorfmeister, Verve Remixes But I also like stuff like Bela Fleck, Johnny A, Larry Carlton , Boz Scaggs..etc Acoustic Alchemy ,Van Morrison But i really am not one to listen to any classical or pure singing kind of music.I guess I have always preferred electrified music. |
grey9hound, Thanks for posting to me. Of all the people who disagree with my sound preferences, you have one of the best reasoned comments, so I feel you merit a serious response. Everyone has their sound preference, so they should tailor their system according to their values. In my case, I value the close up sound of my violin under my chin and that of fellow chamber music players sitting close together. This is a brilliant sound that has more HF content than the sound at the 15th row in a concert. The tonal qualities of violins vary tremendously, which is why violinists may have several violins with different string types and bows with different weight balances and wood stiffness to suit their tastes and styles of playing different music. My 1890 violin is on the bright side but with some mellow qualities compared to new violins. I agree with you that excessive HF content at loud levels is unacceptable, and it is also harmful because of hearing damage. My satisfying listening levels average 60-70 dB with peaks of 90 or so. At these levels, there is pleasure without any harm. The question of what is acceptable will vary among people whose tastes range the spectrum from laidback to very bright and brilliant. Suit yourself. My Rane ME 60 equalizer makes possible near infinite varieties. I often change my settings on the EQ to suit different recordings according to my taste. I feel that everyone should consider doing this, because otherwise the choices for your preferred tonal balance are limited to the choices made by the manufacturers of all your components. Hope this helps, and keep posting your thoughtful comments. |
So I do believe the large majority of the budget should be into speakers unless you are talking about home theater applications. For instance, if you had let’s say a full Martin Logan 11.2 set up with a full trinnov processor and amp versus let’s say a full Wilson audio 11.2 set up with a Marantz processor and amplifiers, I can assure you the trinnov/Logan set up would murder the Wilson/marantz set up. With Two channel, things are different. Speakers become far more crucial but this doesn’t mean the front end isn’t as important. It’s all important but carefully matching the front end to your speakers is also key. For example, Classe audio with Martin Logan electrostatics sounds blah. But if you have audio research with electrostatics then get ready for your jaw to drop. |
WC, right on! I totally agree. When you have settled on your amps and other electronics, I do recommend the Shunyata Denali, as I described in my posts with techno_dude. The Denali is real value, unlike much of the cables out there. At least in my system, the Denali created such a large improvement, much greater than any cable. |
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Amazing that we have been doing this for such a long time. Although at times we have our differences in here, it’s cool to be able to share experiences. I’ve had a couple of conversations with several people whose ears I trust. I can tell you that at this level it’s all subjective. For instance, right now I have the gryphon diablo 300 running wireworld platinum cables throughout and esoteric k1 as a source and to be very honest I don’t miss firing up my ref10 and any other pair of monoblocks. Does this mean it beats what I’ve owned? Hell no but it’s just so much bang for the buck. What I’m saying is that having a 16k integrated that competes relatively well with a 30k preamp and 30k Monos is just crazy. Is it just as good? No but separates aren’t 4 times better either. I think that it’s also something very psychological that tells you “ hey if you own 40k dollar speakers, you can’t have a 16k front end pushing them. You need 50k+ to do justice to the speakers etc” but in my opinion that’s all BS. I realized that it’s really our mind playing tricks. Sometimes we as men get off on seeing a bunch of electronics in between the speakers with a bunch of cables etc etc. I don’t like admitting it but there’s a point that any more money spent is almost just like throwing it away. Will I spend 5,000 dollars on a power cord? Hell no. Not without at least listening to it and seeing if it indeed makes a difference. I also feel that cables are such a tricky purchase. If you buy the wrong cables then now you’re stuck with them and selling cables is harder than any other component I know because there’s still a lot of people that don’t believe in cables. I have friends who have great components and still roll with amazon xlr cables and speaker cables from Best Buy. They don’t want to buy high end cables because their minds don’t allow them to accept that a difference will be heard. Lastly, don’t get it twisted... I will still bring more amps to try and give my impressions on. I’m carefully planning my next amp purchase. I still don’t know what it will be but it will bring life back to this thread. You all have seen me lay low for now because I don’t have really anything to update on other than the platinum cables. I’m also unable to find amps that are of interest to me. The market is saturated with amps that are of no interest to me at this time. I would love to try the m400 momentums, m160 audio research, block audio, gryphon antileon or Mephisto, etc. Those are my wishes but as you all know the market is dry when it comes to those components so I have to remain patient until I can locate one. My speed was much faster before because I had more amps I was interested in and right now the pool is getting shallow. |
@viber6 I get the impression that if you do not hear ear piercing shrill highs, then you consider the system to be lacking in some way ? I disagree, as i believe most others here do . Regarding your long winded posts about objective/subjective and the Merrill ., I don’t think you should be upset because the majority here think that it is wrong to do in this thread.,..then you spout of as if you and Guido have the right to have a "sophisticated " discussion on WCs amp thread. It might be a little different and overlooked if you didn’t write a Chapter every time you post . Just my opinion, of course. |