My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So this is one reason why i just spent money on more acoustic treatment. I could be getting reflections from the beryllium tweeter. Keep in mind, there will always be edginess with some recordings. If a system doesn't sound bright when they are blasting Ozzie Osbourne then i firmly believe that is a system lacking resolution and transparency. There is absolutely no way in hell that one can play song after song and not encounter edginess throughout some of them. The pass 600.8 are in the house and getting playtime before i throw them in the fire. Then once I'm done with that shootout and the room treatments, I'll finally do the Gryphon Antileon Evo versus the winner of the shootout. Will the Antileon Evo in stereo form smoke the essence and 600.8? Is it possible for a stereo amp to do this? We will find out soon enough. |
Funny how 2 guys "familiar" with OZZY dont know how to spell his name :) You have to have access to the very best recordings for any particular title before throwing them all under the bus. Thats why I will never stream....you dont have 5+ different masters/mixes of the same album to choose from. Your just stuck with whatever your subscribed to which is incredibly lame in my opinion. Some of the OZZY remasters are completely unlistenable. REMASTER doesnt mean Better. In my realm of music you usually find that the VERY FIRST CD pressings from the 1980’s are still the best sounding ones. Guarantee thats not what your streaming services are making available. Just sayin...Rant over |
It may be "lazy" as WC points out, but it is also a very wonderful way to find new music. Opting out of streaming music wholesale because they may not have the best version of a recording is shooting one's self in the foot. I'd encourage you to give it a try for a month, most services give you that to decide if you like it or not, so there's no loss. -BTW, Tidal often has two or three different versions of the same release. Not sure on the other services. Cheers |
Take 2, the song, "Say Something" is an excellent clear upfront recording of the voice. It is true to life, and not bright or anything out of balance. But the last video, the song, "Liberty" is muffled by comparison on voices and instruments. The first recording will much more easily demonstrate differences between components. To show how important good recordings are, even mid-fi speakers and components playing the first recording will sound more lifelike than the most transparent speakers and components playing the second recording. You can enjoy all your music even on poor recordings, but a great system won't necessarily bring you more pleasure from poor recordings. Musically, my favorite performances from 1920's through 1940's aren't worth listening to on my system, so YT from the computer is more convenient and good enough. High fidelity happened in the 1950's, and Jay also heard great sound from an analog setup from 1950's recordings. |
I am not at all impressed with the $700K M6 system. Despite what may be the most detailed of all electronics, Soulution 701 + 725, the sound is muffled and muddy compared to what Jay presented with the song, "Say Something." That's what excessive ambience and processing does to recordings and music. The other possibility is that the Scott Walker setup is in a narrow room, so it creates a distant tunnel effect that muddies the sound. I like Jay's room and setup better, which lets his system "breathe" better. |
Im pretty sure none of the streaming services are using the initial early to mid 1980's digital mixes. If your getting 3 choices Im sure they are ALL Post 90's/2000's overly compressed options. Doesnt make sense to me that somebody only does HALF the homework. You spend all this money putting together a High End System BUT then you feed it less than optimal recordings in most cases. (Im not talking about people who only listen to music from the past 20-25 years which I have ZERO interest in) It's like putting 87 Octane Gas in a High Performance Sports car. You have no idea what your missing. Ignorance is Bliss as they say. |
Repost to compare on same song, "Private Investigations" https://youtu.be/FgGVH1e_eyM--Pandora + Essence monos |
On this electronic piece, as with vocal pieces, this Pass is like all the other Pass stuff previously presented and the Pass XP15 phono stage I heard at home years ago. Compared to the Essence monos, Pass is rounded/dull/murky on the entire freq range for the electronic guitars. The piano has less brilliance and shine in upper midrange/HF. To say the Essence is "brighter" is literally true, but this "brightness" is consistent with its higher resolution, liveliness and sparkle, and not at all unpleasant. |
WC, Good reminder in last video that a preamp ALWAYS sounds better than dac-direct at audiophile levels of equipment. Hopefully the deniers will learn that based on your extensive experience and won’t pine for you to do dac-direct. You could not have been more clear on how wrong the preamp deniers are, based on your extensive experience |
Preamp is KEY. There is no dac that has the B@LLS that a real preamp has. If this dac exists, please introduce me to it. Maybe one day there will be dacs that can do both jobs without an issue, but for now there is no replacement for a preamp. Anyhow, today's shootout took me more time to edit because i edited the video differently. I did one song with the Essence followed by the same song with the Pass Labs X600.8. This will hep you all in comparing things without having to go to different videos. Hope you all enjoy it! |
Right. I mean, you’ve owned most of the dacs worth owning up to the $80k USD level, and that is your definitive conclusion that having a good preamp is always better, even with dacs up to that level, so that is a pretty unambiguous statement on your part based on your vast experience. Just good to get it on record. |
Every person has a budget and yes you can certainly use a dac without a problem, but there are sonic limitations. A dac does not have the capacitance of a great preamp and it does not open up the sound anywhere close to a well-designed linestage. I want for people to simply be aware of the trade-offs involved when using a dac instead of a preamp. |
Jay says, "I want for people to simply be aware of the trade-offs involved when using a dac instead of a preamp." I am in agreement with that statement. He also said recently that dac direct gives more resolution and clarity than with the added preamp, at the price of ability to withstand high SPL's. The added preamp gives more B@LLS. Agree again. But for those who want maximum clarity and unravelling of complexities in music with respect for natural SPL's without blasting, dac direct is the preferred option. |
Jay said a dac doesn’t exist that he’s heard that is better dac-direct than with a good preamp. Ever, in all of his trials - listen to the video and read his comments above. And he agreed with my statement above that for BEST SONIC RESULTS (not some fringe subset of sonic results), preamp wins every time. Every time - not sometimes - every time. Case closed according to WC. (I notice he did not agree with your characterization, Viber). WC has the experience, Viber, you do not (though your fringe sonic views are absolutely correct for you, I don’t doubt that - I truly believe you when you say you find that type of presentation best, and granted everyone hears differently). It’s just that most people (nearly everyone) need to be able to listen to music loudly from time to time. |
I've heard DAC direct to amp many times followed by inserting a preamp and repeating the track. I listen at low to moderate levels and I agree that there seems to be more info Dac direct but I always come away feeling the sound is thin and threadbare....even at low levels. The latest shootout (Round 1: Pass labs X600.8 versus Gryphon Essence monoblocks) delivered more of the same tonal and clarity differences between Gryphon and Pass. I hear more information, detail and neutrality with the Essence monos. The Pass gear sounds thicker, warmer and less detailed. With lesser recordings the Pass amps might be easier to listen to. It's to Gryphon's credit, even with stock PC's it's still more transparent and detailed. I think to get these two sets of monos closer in tonality I would try Odin1 PC's on the Pass monos and Dragon PC's on the Essence. The Odin1 PC's on the Pass amps would add detail and lean the tone out a bit while the Dragon PC's on the Essence monos would warm up the sound by rolling off the top end and boosting the bottom end.....In the end the Essence monos would still be more detailed and neutral. YMMV |
I admire your in depth critiques of, surely, many of the best amps available. Surely, the amp is critical, if not, central in any system. One might say amp and speaker are the two hands clapping. But not many of us are able to spend many tens of thousands. Especially considering the price, AGD may be among the best there is. $8.3K-$19.5K. The only Class D galium nitride based amps using a patented chip (transistor) designed specifically for audio. I highly recommended that AGD be reviewed. I have never heard anything but rave comments |
ron17, Good observations and speculations. I'll integrate what you said into a common principle gleaned from my 40 years of audio experience--more information and accuracy are always accompanied by a relatively thin and threadbare tonality. Yes, eliminating the preamp yields thin. Yes, the Pass sounds thicker (or, the Essence sounds thinner), warmer and less detailed. So why is more information associated with thinner tonality? One reason is that more HF info is revealed, which skews the tonal balance upward, or conversely that less HF info skews the tonality downward to more dominance of lower freq. Example--on less accurate equipment, a mandolin recording sounds a little skewed towards a larger guitar. Another reason is that more accurate electronics reproduces the true to life sound of the natural instrument, whereas the less accurate electronics adds fuzzy distortion around the edges, a kind of halo effect which fattens the sound. This fullness is often misinterpreted as more complete harmonic structure, but the reality is that it is merely an overlay of electronic veil and warmth. A good way to appreciate this is to carefully listen to everyday sounds of nature like the sharp percussive impact of golf clubs, baseball bats, etc. With grossly distorted playback on TV, these sounds are fuller and much more rounded, perhaps more pleasant but not truthful. |
viber, I agree with most of your statements however I believe your need for utmost clarity and pronounced top end stems from your age and lifestyle. While (I'm guessing) most people would prefer a preamp in a system you prefer a DAC direct to amp setup because it is more detailed and has a more emphasized top end. You being a musician for most of your life, playing and listening in loud environments has most likely resulted in moderate hearing loss, especially the top end. I'm guessing you have your Rane EQ set @ +10 db starting at around 5-6k hz up to 20k hz. So while you find an elevated top end normal and tonally pleasing, audiophiles in the 30-50 year old range would find it harsh, threadbare and fatiguing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your preferring a tipped up frequency balance. It's what you require to counterbalance your hearing loss. |
Speaking of that - I prefer the Pass Labs presentation in the comparison videos. The top end with the Essence is just a bit too much. The presence is nice at times, but the Pass Labs has the quiet, seemingly longer decays, more dramatic in those ways. I suspect the Pass Labs can be listened to for longer periods and perhaps turned up a bit more. Dave |
I mean, it doesn’t really matter why Viber prefers the fringe, minority-view presentation that he does. Could be hearing loss but lot of assumptions in that post, so who really knows? Perhaps his hearing is better than all of ours? IDK. I’m in that age range that Ron mentioned, but I’m sure there are plenty of people much older than me who might have better hearing than I do (although I have no hearing issues that I’m aware of). Doesn’t really matter. What matters is that Viber's is not a prevailing view and almost everyone would disagree with it, yet sometimes (often) he tries to present it as mainstream, or as his wish for mainstream. Important to keep in mind that it is not, even if it is the correct presentation for him, whatever the reason. |
Completely agree with everything in your post kren0006. For all we know, he could have better hearing than any of us. I think some folks like more forward and brighter to some degree, as seen in the current shootout - some are liking the more forward presentation of the Essence. viber6 takes that to an even higher degree, which as kren0006 mentions, puts his view as less prevailing. While I understand viber6’s logic, and I can see how that would appeal for him, it’s not for most folks. That again though is an assumption. I think WC asked viber6 to share videos of his system, so that we can hear what he prefers and see what we think; however, I do not think he has done that yet. Dave |
Dave, Right, some people like brighter presentations than others, but nobody else says nothing but clarity and high frequency performance matters, that bass is generally irrelevant, and that low volumes are all that are ever needed and that there is no need to play at party volumes for extended periods like he does, and with as much dogmatic conviction as he does. Haha, but I guess it gives us something to talk about |
In the end, it is what each of us likes - our own personal reference or standard. That does not make it THE standard, it just makes it what it is, what WE like best. There is no right or wrong, so we need to live and let live. Enjoy music the way you want to, that's why you spend time and $$ to assemble and enjoy a system. You build it for yourself, not someone else. BTW, I've seen no attacks here, there were none. |
Great points guys. I'm embarking on bringing you all different tunes with different gear so you can all get a taste of what is important to you. I have a gut feeling that on this shootout there is a closer race going on based on the YouTube comments. I'll be posting a poll soon to see what the general feeling is with these monoblocks. That said, i am dusting off the antileon Evo and i am getting it ready to enter the battle against the pass labs x600.8. Will 300 watts of pure class a change the outcome? Let's see... |
