Hey Jay, what happened to the rating system on amps? You put a lot of thought into it and modified it but then stopped.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
inna, We both have lots of turntable/arm/cartridge experience that Jay could profit from. I hope Mike at Suncoast shows Jay what is possible from a TT system. Indeed, a compatible cartridge/tonearm is where synergy truly exists, although each part of the cartridge/arm/TT system is important. Assuming compatibility, I found the most variability in cartridges, because the cartridge is most like the speaker, always the most important element in the chain. My Denon 305 moving coil, cheap at $600 in 1985 when I got it, is more analytical and crisp than any other cartridge much more expensive, although Jay will enjoy trying many cartridges which have all kinds of tonal flavors and will make much bigger differences than anything he has yet compared. Back in the 90’s, the same recording on LP and CD showed my Goldmund Studio TT + Alphason HR100S arm + Denon 305 to be much clearer than the CD. I have a Benchmark DAC 1, and although I have no experience with expensive dac’s it was a wipeout. My 305 still plays music well after 35 years, although now the CD is clearer. I recently got a refurbished 305, but there is no rush to install it, since I still enjoy the old 305. |
Of course it's "someone else's money", I have other ways to waist money but not on nearly the same grand scale. Important thing for us is if the top MSB will outperform the dCS and if so to what degree. It's a show. I didn't expect to dislike the Gryphon Anthileon that much. What's wrong with me ? Or with the Gryphon ? Or with both of us ? |
Jay, Since your early years involved working on cars, you are a hands on kind of guy. You will LOVE cartridge swapping, experimenting with cartridge mounting screws of different materials, adjusting VTA (vertical tracking angle) by listening (some arms allow this while listening!), resoldering delicate tonearm wiring to cartridge pins, trying different tonearm cables by Nordost and others, trying different resistive loading in phono preamps for different cartridges, trying different phono preamps. I had fun doing all this. I once had 3 turntables together--my Goldmund Studio, Win Labs direct drive, Win Labs belt drive. I transferred my tonearm/cartridge to all 3 tables, and learned what each table was doing to the sound. You are clearly an experimenter and would enjoy so many types of sound you can create. There is no absolute truth saying that vinyl is warmer than digital. There is so much variability in all the combinations of cartridge, tonearms, tables, phono preamps. I can assemble a vinyl system with much more clarity and sparkle than a digital system. Other people choose warm sounding components in each category, so their vinyl setups are indeed warmer than digital. But digital remains artificial once you get exposed to what vinyl can do, as Mike Fremer says. |
Hmm, I’m not so sure he would love that. Hands on maybe but also pretty much instant gratification or move on - basically opposite of what is required with vinyl tinkering. I’d like to see him give it a go as well, but I wouldn’t say that it will be something he will necessarily take to like a fish to water. But maybe as he gets older he will grow into it : ) Kinda like assuming someone who loves wrenching on high performance cars would be a perfect candidate to build model railroad setups. Maybe, but probably not much of a correlation. Anyway, my long-ago prediction for the WC/vinyl seance was the year 2022. Unfortunately, if it happens in 2022 I predict it will be over by 2023, lol. I think this msb vs dcs shootout will be kickass though. Probably the best shootout he has ever done. hopefully the dcs won't be sold and he'll keep both around for awhile so the shootout won't be one and done but will have some depth and context |
I suspect what might happen here is that the msb reference will be better than the dcs rossini, but not so much that it completely blows it away. This will make WC wonder again about Vivaldi, so Rossini will be sold and Vivaldi will come back to face off with Reference. And WC will declare Vivaldi the winner -- check that, he probably won’t declare a straight-up winner (rarely does) -- but Vivaldi will be what he keeps. That takes us to Labor day. Especially once those VAC tubes that I’ve been predicting arrive in a month, dcs will be the better pairing there vs msb, though msb will probably prevail with the Gryphon and likely sound damn good in its own right. AlexxV by Halloween. M6 gone by 4th. Ahh, It’s just all so clear and easy to project ...... lol |
There are A LOT of flies on the wall that are quietly eager to hear the MSB vs DCS shootout. This includes people in high places from both companies. If you follow my channel, you should have seen the first images of both dacs sitting next to each other yesterday. Also, after speaking to high profile youtuber, he suggested i use this shootout as means to get me to the 5,000 subscriber mark which is something he has done to get to north of 40k subscribers himself. With that said, the shootout will happen once i reach 5,000 subscribers. I will promote the upcoming shootout on my future videos (please dont complain or get desperate). Once we have arrived at 5,000 subscribers, we will commence the showdown between 2 highly regarded dacs. All i ask is for you all to do your part and share my channel with your friends and over other platforms (facebook, instagram, ). If you visit other forums/sites, etc, please help spread the word. I am not asking for a dime, but rather just to do a small part. Can we hit 5k subscribers by the end of the month? i think so! Thanks for the support guys. I couldn’t do this without you all! |
msb looks kind of cheap and ordinary sitting next to dcs. Not very impressive aesthetically, fwiw. Won’t matter I guess if it sounds better, but for $83k put some effort into the appearance! Maybe it looks better when powered up. As it is kinda looks like three old cableTV boxes stacked on top of one another.......hey, flip over to MTV, I think Real World is on now....... |
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All the texts and emails plus messages i received just now are thanking me for my response. There are people who actually want to see the channel and my future shoot outs. I don’t understand why there is always someone who loves to ruin it for the rest. It’s a threat if you feel you can’t put your money where your mouth is. As simple as that. |
WC today just issued a clear physical threat to me on this thread. It has been reported and noted by witnesses. Also, WC just confirmed this in his above post which has been noted also. My question to him and his close supporters , what do you all have so precious to loose in this audio journey that makes you use threat to another user because of his opinions?... |
I’m shaking in my boots. Grab your lawyer. They start at 799/hr. You might have to sell your Luxman. This would be the perfect time for you to crawl out of the room. You’ve been disruptive here and audiogon has that on record. Care to share with users here that you were already banned here by audiogon for a few weeks? Yes, in case you all don’t know, he was banned from posting on forums here and was granted access to post again if he was to behave and stop creating narratives. I’ll let the mods do their thing. |
I can hear the Thundering Hoofbeats of the Canadian Mounties as they cross the Border en route to Florida to arrest Jay. Should get there sometime in 2022. You’ve got 8 months to pack up your gear and get out of Dodge City buddy!! :) Is Miss Behavior related to Miss Elizabeth of WWF Fame?? Learn how to spell please. Almost as bad as the guy who spells WASTE as Waist. |
Turntables are great. You just need an amazing table, arm, arm wire, cartridge, platform, phono pre, high quality interconnect, etc. And yes, it will be very rewarding. But unlike having a digital source that is also optimized, and has access to Tidal & Qobuz, you still need to buy and store records. This is a major turn off for some and I'm not sure that Jay wants to futz with vinyl, but he'll let us know if he does. When I need a vinyl fix, I just visit my nearby dealer. |
I find kren0006's scenario plausible about the eventual coronation of the DCS Vivaldi. I am looking forward to hearing the Rossini/MSB shootout, but the money is big, and I don't think the differences will be as great as for cartridges. In the 80's, I found enormous differences between sub $1000 top performing moving coil cartridges. 10-15 years ago I was considering the van den Hul Colibri which had a reputation for ultra fast detail, but I was nervous about the unprotected cantilever on that $7000 item. Some of today's SOTA cartridges are $15K, but any moving coil for $1000 can provide just as good sound of any flavor. SOTA vinyl offers so much fun trying many things for a MUCH smaller budget than SOTA digital. |
@Viber6 But digital remains artificial once you get exposed to what vinyl can do, as Mike Fremer says.I agree 100%. I am blown away with the performance of my Victor QLA-7 with the JVC Z1-S MM cartridge with a JICO DT-Z1S-B (SAS Boron cantilever). I am sure there is a lot better, but I am Impressed . I have heard my buddies Thorens TD-125 setup (supposedly very good) and I’ll take QLA-7. |
In contrast to what Viber suggests in last post, prevailing wisdom on A’gon seems to be that it is much easier to get stellar digital performance for value expenditure than it is for analog, mostly because dacs/streaming have come so far recently that a couple grand or less will get you very good digital performance. Personally I don’t have an opinion on it bc like WC I don’t use vinyl, just recounting what I perceive to be the conventional wisdom of the moment. I think prevailing wisdom is still that a cost no object vinyl system will prevail over cost no object digital (mike lavigne for one who has systems that are multiples of what WC doing here says this) but the crossover point where vinyl takes over isn’t at the budget builds l don’t think, in contrast to what stated above. Anyway, there’s another long term investigative project for you WC: determine once and for all where that crossover point is that vinyl overtakes digital. Kinda like the question I asked Suncoast on where the crossover point from integrateds to separates is |
@grey9hound I don't doubt that Vinyl would be a much better experience than digital. I heard some recording from 1955 over at suncoast and i couldn't believe the realism. It was spooky to say the least. The voice sounded natural, the instruments were lacking the synthetic tone that digital often times adds to the music. It was impressive for sure man. |
@ kren0006 In contrast to what Viber suggests in last post, prevailing wisdom on A’gon seems to be that it is much easier to get stellar digital performance for value expenditure than it is for analog, mostly because dacs/streaming have come so far recently that a couple grand or less will get you very good digital performance. NOT TRUE. Trust me Vinyl wins at a much lower cost to performance, just like Viber said. Please direct me to all of that prevailing wisdom on Audiogon Sorry ,I edited this . It should go before WCs comment to me about Vinyl being better . |
I know there is a huge crowd for Vinyl. I understand why that is. Who knows if there will be another source down the road that can come close to Vinyl and i don’t mean a dac. For now, i don't think there is a dac that can close the gap regardless of the price. Dacs are getting more expensive because they are working harder and harder to remove the digital artifacts and lower noise and get closer to analog. That said, the issue is that no matter how expensive a dac is, we are still at the mercy of the crappy streaming services. |
greyhound, I’m not sure that I can direct you to anything specific without a lot of legwork that I don’t have time for. You could search the posts of Mike lavigne (hope I spelled that correctly) as he has often commented on his (and all who have compared the two in his system) preference for vinyl over digital - he’s got analog and digital systems well into the six figures at least. Anyway like I said, I don’t have an opinion but many have VERY strong opinions on it and I was just conveying what I perceived to be the consensus. I won’t argue with you on it if you feel differently. My impression from what I’ve read often on A’gon (though I can’t cite where) is that those who’ve done the comparisons feel that to get analog to sound better you need to spend over $5-10k (somewhere in there) on TT/cart/arm/phonopre/etc for it to beat a 5-10k dac/ streamer. It’s all subjective of course. Maybe it comes down to one’s definition of budget system (and on this thread that REALLY gets skewed) |
Jay, Even my 35 year old Denon 305 cartridge still has brilliance AND it is smoother than my digital. When the 305 was in its early years, it wiped out my same digital in EVERY way. The miracle of live, unamplified music is that it is both brilliant and smooth. I know you want clarity and musicality, and I believe that vinyl is your ticket. So much more variety of tonalities in cartridges, than the differences in digital components. You may at present lack the experience of analog devotees, but you still have the attraction of high class speakers and electronics to show on youtube. I think that the tremendous variety of sounds you could present with varying analog systems would showcase the work you have already done with speakers and electronics. |
and for those of you Analog guys who think that MC is better than MM Check this out https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc and this http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&am... where we analyze some MM type cartridges. |
well, i dont want to speak to soon since i am evaluating this device for only one hour so far, but i think i have just spent less than $1,000 dollars on a device that took my system to a whole new level. Anybody here who streams WILL benefit from this. I won’t give my full recommendation until i keep using it for a few days, but if you have a little bit of money stashed away and want to push your digital experience to newer heights, stay tuned here for more. |
Poor Gryphon Antileon. Mephisto and 2150 score 97 and 98 respectively on the back of Wilson Alexx, while Antileon will be left out to dry with M6.......feel sorry for the warmer Gryphon : ) (joking kinda, but it’s probably not a coincidence that those amps scored the best on Wilson. - very expensive amps (Block, XS, CH, others) on lesser speakers scored lower I believe) |
Haha, no I wish. I just like them. A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek. (But psst, WC likes Wilson even more than I do — he just can’t really say it now while the M6 are in the house. But how many vids has he posted in 3-4 weeks of M6?? Not many compared to when he had Wilson and every other day was raving about them) in some ways it’s like WC going out of his way to show every video but M6 (Suncoast, 2150 review, ...., he got 175k speakers in the room need to hear more of them than we have. It’s been nearly a month oh and difference between this and Viber/Rane is WC has had 6 (count em) Wilson’s in his room or earlier room (he just said that in recent vid). The stuff V talks most about including what you mentioned and the speakers I’ll not mention so as to avoid controversy have never been owned by WC- big difference. That said he’s doing much better so don’t try to start anything between us : ) |
Sounds like you’re eager to hear the M6 huh Kren? 😂 It is coming... I’ll dedicate the next M6 video to you...how’s that sound man? Nah I’m just kidding... I’m just working on a boat load of other things for the system that i haven’t shown you all just yet. Patience... I am still working on assembling the MSB dac, waiting on the preamp module for it and a couple of powercords for it. MSB dac is modular so it needs to be ordered to your specifications. The preamp module option will be the finishing touch. I got a call set up tomorrow with MSB to go over the set up. |
grey9hound, Thanks for the MM cartridge links. I won’t live long enough to read over 13,000 posts in his threads! Certainly Raul has much more experience than me, but he is vague on the relative sonic character of MM vs MC cartridges, maybe because of the wide variety. My experience with MM--Shure M91, top Shure V15MR, Grado F9E is that they were all hopelessly murky/veiled/rolled off in HF compared to any MC I have owned--Denon 103D, Supex 900, Linn Asak, Fidelity Research MC201 and a FR skinny one I can’t recall, Monster Genesis 1000, Accuphase AC2. The Denon 303 was faster than all of them, and my current Denon 305 still the fastest although the most ruthless. Raul deserves credit for matching cartridge to tonearm, different styli, and loading factors. It is possible that were I as thorough as he, I might have liked some MM cartridges more. Nowhere else are specs meaningless--it is all about compatibility and listening tests. Jay, Which turntable/tonearm/cartridge/phono preamp did Mike play for you? I never met a dealer who could do the ideal comparisons of TT/arm/cartridges in different combinations in the same room. The same TT/arm with different cartridges so you could do A/B/C/D. The combinations are so many. You can’t buy a cartridge and return it because it is too delicate. The best you can do is borrow a cartridge from a good dealer who you have a relationship with. It’s good to have a few friends to swap cartridges with. This is admittedly very daunting, but grey9hound and I promise it is worth it for the sonic nirvana of your choice. Someone like Raul with 13,000 posts demonstrates the passion of vinyl lovers who know it is all worth it. |
Here's a little entertainment for you all: https://vimeo.com/537019620?fbclid=IwAR3j9Fvjjy93OxPNwn_wLuI4iuuQO3Fbrg4KzVF_mVupq8UiROO_MxKm7jE |
Turntables eventually would be nice but there really is so much ground to cover in streamers/DACs that WC hasn’t even set foot in yet. Lots of high-end options out there that he hasn’t tried. That’s why this MSB/DCS shootout will be so cool as a starting point. When you think about it, WC has been DCS-exclusive since way back to some Esoteric CD player if memory serves, and that feels like about four score and seven years ago. So I think if WC chooses to be more open about comparing hi-end dacs there is plenty of real estate to cover. He might wait for TT’s until he gets to 50 years old, haha |