How about Magnepan ? No ac plugging needed.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
techno_dude, Electrostatics are plugged into the wall to get the voltage that charges the stator panel sandwich. Think of it as a giant thin Oreo cookie. The black outer cookies are the stator charged panel, and the white filling is the electrostatic membrane that responds to the musical signal. Therefore, the transformer that plugs into the wall and is used to step up the low DC voltage doesn't carry the musical signal. All speakers use crossovers and electronics to some extent, but the accuracy of electrostatics is mainly due to the low mass driver which is tightly controlled between the stators. I have heard the GT Audioworks ribbon/planar magnetic speaker. It is excellent and exemplifies many of the desirable qualities of good electrostatics. An advantage is its high efficiency. |
Techno, you are proving your ignorance and lack of knowledge when it comes to electrostatic design, which go pretty far back in time when they became available on the market. Electrostats are some of the most transparent of all speakers ( even though I am not a fanboy ). Just sayin....An addendum to my previous post.....Most Mcintosh ss amps use output transformers in the signal path, and many folks like them. Enjoy, MrD. |
Techno_dude have you heard (Greg) GT Audioworks speakers? If not, please don’t make assumptions of something you haven’t heard. I heard the Neoliths at a show a few years ago and although they had high resolution they were not coherent at all. The bass was much slower than the panels and the volume was set to high compared to panels. I hope they were just setup poorly because I didn’t like them at all. In that setup! The GT Audioworks speakers are just as open but much more coherent and are way cheaper. Faxer you should really have more transparency stating you are a dealer! |
Faxer ( Steve ), you are the dealer you speak of. It would benefit you to stay off a thread like this. You are being negative of electrostatics, and in this case, of an 80K pair of speakers and promoting your own carried product. You have done this on other threads and I have called you out on it. I will report you if you do not state you are a dealer. Another thing......Many tube amplifiers, passive preamps and phono stages use transformers in their output stages, and people enjoy them. So, what is your point about transformers. Enjoy ! MrD. |
This is a video that pretty much echoes how I feel about this matter. Please watch https://youtu.be/fQBgvwDMSFQ |
thezaks, Which RF testing equipment did you get, and what numbers did you measure? I got the esi24 meter from lessEMF, which measures low freq electric fields, magnetic fields, and RF at 2.4 Ghz. I have measured all rooms in several homes, and it appears that RF is the major problem. Several people have reported to me that they were getting better sleep when they found rooms and sleeping head positions with lower RF readings. I typically have measured RF to be 100-2000 microwatts/sq meter. Maybe you are lucky to be living in a secluded area so your readings are better. International safety recommendations for optimal health are for 10 or less. I am still experimenting to see if audio quality is improved by mitigating dirty electricity and RF. |
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ron17, Yes, dimmer switches create RF and dirty electricity. Watch the short videos on lessEMF.com. Incandescent light bulbs are the best, CFL's the worst, and LED's acceptable. They use the Stetzerizer meters. I bought the competitor to the Stetzerizer, the Greenwave filters and meters. What is disappointing is that the Shunyata Denali conditioner doesn't appear to reduce the dirty electricity voltage in the region of measurement 3 Khz to 10 Mhz. |
Nordos Odin speaker cables are here. New, fresh out of the box with zero miles here are my impressions: 1. Smaller soundstage when compared to my wireworld platinum 7 2. Presentation is congested 3. Some instruments are appearing that were not there before 4. Excellent separation of instruments 5. There seems to be more “rhythm” to the music. More to come |
@ron17 Thanks Ron17 for your email (and post)! Good to know about your amp and the RF issue. The Odeon is the only amp I’ve ever had a problem with. There is a ground lift switch on the back, and in one position it was fine and just warm to the touch during operation - no problems at all. However, in the other position, then the amp instantly started burning up - you could smell the electronics burning. It was so bad, it scared my wife and kids. While I understand what you are saying with what happened to your amp, I’m not sure that this was RF. I think that they messed up this amp when they did the super duper upgrade. The sonics were essentially the worst of any 7 channel amp I’ve had in my house (with the ground lift switch in either position). That doesn’t seem to jive with the praise that this amp has received. Plus, the person who worked with me on this (nice guy, by the way) had me buy some testing equipment, and the test equipment did not conclusively show RF to be an issue in my home, yet he continued to think it had to be RF. I guess it never occurred to him that it could actually be something gone wrong with the upgrade. He eventually bought back the amp from me - he did make a profit on it. I didn’t care at that point - I just wanted to move on to something else. Dave |
@thezaks Actually I had a similar problem. I've owned a Classe CA-5100 amp for years and really love it for 2 channel and HT applications. I completed a home remodel a few years ago and soon started having problems with that amp. After 1 hour of listening it would go into protection mode and shut down. This happened dozens of times over the course of a year. I had no idea what was going on. I talked to a tech at Classe several times who thought it was overheating, but it had plenty of space around it. I ended up sending it in for repairs. When they got the amp and checked the computer log within it they called me right away. The first thing they asked me was have you remodeled your home lately and added LED lights and or dimmers to your lighting? I had done both. They said the amp was sensitive to RF noise created by dimmers, LED lights and general AC pollution caused by a number of things. It had been fine for years until I did my remodel and then all hell broke loose! They did what they called a 'Japan Fix' on the amp....which was to expand the tolerance of the protection mode circuit. They said all of their amps sent to Japan had to be designed that way because of all of the RF pollution there......Long story but when I got the amp back I never had another problem with it. I've had many amps since my remodel and never had a problem with them..... Bottom line is every amp has different tolerances to RF noise/AC pollution. |
Hello WhiteCamaroSS, I premise that I have not had the opportunity of listening to the Bel Canto REF600 yet
Bel Canto Ref600 is a basic implementation of the entry level NCore NC500 power conversion module and the unregulated NCore NC/1200/700 SMPS in a mono configuration.... What Bel Canto seems to have added to the basic module-in-a-box is their own signal imput stage to raise the balanced input impedance and reduce common mode noise.
This is a similar approach to the lovely Merrill Teranis stereo amp, which I evaluated a couple years ago.... As nice as Teranis was at its real-world $2500 price point, in my system it had a tendency of showing traces of congestion in loud/complex passages, and so fell well short of the excellent performance that I found in my system with the Merrill Veritas monos which are based instead on the full-blown NCore-1200 modules. In turn, Veritas performance is perceivably below the Rowland M925 monos that you and I are quite familiar with.
Furthermore, a couple of years ago, a friend of mine tested extensively in his own system REF600, Veritas, and the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated. He found Veritas to exceed comfortably the performance of REF600, but in the end he purchased the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated, because he preferred the amplification section of CS2 over Veritas. I am quite familiar with CS2, and I do like it very much.... However, it does not achieve the performance of M925.
My guess is that REF600 performance might fit somewhere between the Teranis stereo and the Veritas monos.... I am conjecturing that the Bel Canto might be a little closer to Teranis than to Veritas.
M535 is far from being a simple module-in-a-box amp implementation. Not that this really matters one way or another.... What matters is what the critter does for living... My extended experience with M535 in bridged mode, which I have had in my system running since last October and is fully broken in, and particularly after the application of a recently developed phase locking slip-on, is that its performance grazes M925 territory, an amp that both you and I love.
If I were to venture a performance order from lowest to highest based on the above, I would list amps in the following order.... Teranis, REF600, Veritas, Continuum S2 (amplification section), M535 bridged, M925. So, while the above is admittedly somewhat indirect, it does never the less leave me scratching my head about the observations of your source on M535 bridged performance. BTW, Bridged M535 in the US are rare critters... While pairs have been playeing at audio shows, I know of only two extant pairs in the wild... One of them is in my own home. Has your source had significant experience with bridged M535? Saluti, Guido |
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thezaks, Power line noise is a major source of frustration, which can turn a great amp into mush. My Shunyata Denali has helped a lot, but there is still variability in the sound--usually clearer in the mid AM when people have gone to work and there are fewer appliances being used in my building. RF is medically dangerous and so is "dirty electricity" which is high freq of 3 Khz to 10 Mhz riding on the 60 Hz AC line. I am presently experimenting with Greenwave filters which dramatically reduce the dirty electricity according to the company and confirmed by my measurements. You can read about the medical dangers of RF and dirty electricity on lessEMF.com, radiationrefuge.com. There are interesting videos of Geovital. |
@ron17 I was very excited to try the Odeon and had one for ~7 months. I must have had a bad apple, since apparently most folks like it. Plus, I had the super duper upgrade done to it, and had problems with it. I was told that RF in my house was the problem, however, I've never had a problem with any other amp or component. Again, my situation was probably unique. I would guess that WC would agree with that, especially when I mention that my next amp was the McIntosh MC8207, and that amp was so much better. I am now happy with the Krell Theater 7 and no longer looking for 7 channel amps. Dave |
WC, Now that you have discovered the top echelon of brands like Block and Odin, you can safely sell the lesser Dag and Gryphon in order to put the money into more Odin. Even though Dag 400 and Gryphon monos would be interesting to try, they would probably show a similar house sound to their other models you know, so I say to go for the best which you know. Probably the best bang for the buck for your tastes is double Rowland 535's, as guido has described. |
whitecamaross I am moving into a new home and have the cherished opportunity to finish the basement and carve out a niche for my system. But what size niche is ideal? I have the M-L 15a's. I can't recall if you built the new music room yet. But what are your dimensions now and what is room plan in the future? thanks |
Diablo is far better than the 585 Levinson. Not worth comparing. Same thing goes for the momentum integrated that’s collecting dust in my garage. It’s far better than the gryphon Diablo. yes I’ve owned all 3 and this comes from hands on experience. For the money, the 585 is awesome but it is nowhere as muscular sounding as the Diablo. Levinson isn’t known for having dynamics but rather awesome mids. That’s what they are known for. |
whitecamaross, Can I ask if you have auditioned these two amps? 1) Mark Levinson 585 2) Gryphon Diablo 300 I have heard the 585 and loved the slam and dynamics with bass attack and punch it offers. It catches you out, you end up turning the volume up not knowing the dynamics of bass is going to punch you hard. I haven't heard the Diablo 300. Does it offer the same impact in terms of dynamics as the 585? Is it same characteristically as a 585? If not how does it differ? Is this amp mainly for classical, Jazz, vocal, string music? Can it be used with pop, rock, house, r&b, rap too? Your opinion in this matter much appreciated as I'm looking to buy one of these amps to drive my B&W 803D3 speakers. Thanks. |
I'm in agreement with most responses and things said here. I just have a personal issue with brand bashing when; 1) one hasn't heard that particular piece personally or more importantly, 2) one hasn't heard that particular piece in their system directly comparing it to another piece. As I said, if you change more than one thing and then listen, you can't really tell if you are hearing that particular piece or a combination of pieces and equipment. There are hard working people that work for Parasound, Audio Research, Atmosphere, and many other companies, where most of them are hard working, honest people that produce good products. They has families to take care of. Bashing is non productive. WC is correct in that he cannot try everything or may not even want to. He has a level of costs, performance and expectation and doesn't want to really go down in quality just to satisfy someone else's curiosity. I typically let things ride until I hear someone bash a company or product they haven't tried personally. Even bashing is too strong for me. Some gear is better than others, but bad? terrible? horrible? crap? come on! different, yes. not as good in certain ways as another piece? possibly. I can put Sony or Yamaha gear with Martin Logan Neolith speakers and if they can handle the impedance of the speakers, they will sound pretty good. Better than Audio Research? probably not. So what else could be making this sound not so great? hmmm? lets think about that a minute. I've demo'd equipment that initially sounded not good at all. Come to find out that the piece wasn't really designed to be matched with the other piece at all. So, there. That was the reason. the piece wasn't bad at all, I just didn't read the owner's manual. My mistake. When WC gets a new piece, removes an existing piece and inserts the new piece, plays his music and returns to the existing piece and compares, boy, that's what I look forward to. But you can screw with a piece by changing some cables also and totally mess up everything. Cable rolling can be a real mess. anyway, I'm enjoying the ride. enjoy |
I think there are a few things to keep in mind with the thread. 1. It’s a fun read. I’ve known WCSS for quite a while now, I’ve sold equipment to him (very early on) and bought from him. As a buyer/seller - dude is nails. 2. I view the thread a few ways. a. - Before his move, the old room and generally before he went uber-insane high end b. - After the move, and the new room c. - After the Neoliths. WCSS has had numerous speakers, but his bent has been Electrostats. I would wager he has more time with the current ML line-up than anyone who is not a ML engineer or major ML dealer. I take his impressions of amps/pre-amps when reviewed on ML’s (early on on the little ones, or the neoliths) to be a much more accurate representation of what the equipment sounds like than his impressions with other speakers. His rooms have never been heavily treated so the impressions on the Stat’s are consistent. 3. Like myself, typically WCSS listens LOUD. I know lately he has turned it down a bit, but WCSS listens loud. That shapes impressions also. 4. We all have biases... like for me, personally I won’t spend a ton on cables and cords. I don’t use zip-cords for speaker wires but I don't spend a ton. But my XLR’s are mogami’s - good enough for a studio, good enough for me. I do have one "upgraded" powercord. I have a PS audio entry level one for my 250.8... only because it came with an amp I turned around quickly and figured why not keep it! |
The only WAY to get REAL ANSWERS is for people to BUY all the gear they want to try rather than reading reviews from magazines or the HE/SHE SAID mentality. You all wanna know the issue? most people dont have the money or time to try all the gear i go through so what else can they do? follow my journey....that is all they can do... end of story.. |
Same equipment, including source, cabling, conditioning, speakers, room, etc. Change amp and listen again. That is really the only true way to make a determination of this sort. A/B comparison with changing only one thing. Otherwise, the difference in sound could be attributable to any number of things that were changed. no way to get around that. In WC's case, he has not only changed amps, he has changed, pre-amps, cables, speakers, etc. It would probably be physically impossible for him to change only one thing. So, we are taking his impressions on the move as life goes on. I have no problem with that. My issue (if it really is one) is that most of the equipment he has tried has actually been quite nice. So, I would be very careful saying that something is bad. It just may not have worked well in that particular setup with some of the equipment used at that time. Pass labs makes outstanding equipment. period. With the system WC has now as his "reference". Amps, speakers, cables, source, pre-amp. If he were to go back (I know it is impossible, so don't kill me here) and re-evaluate the pieces he has tried previously, only replacing that one piece, I can believe that he would hear differences. But keeping within price points on equipment, I can say that I don't think there will be jaw dropping differences between equipment in the same price point category. Like I said earlier. For example, Parasound make quite decent equipment. Place them with Martin Logan Neolith speakers and they will sound quite nice. If they didn't it may be because of many reasons. 1) room, 2) cables, 3) power condition, 4) terrible music (have experienced this at shows), 4) any number of things. I am appreciating WC's journey through the "high-end" audio world. It is quite fascinating. But, people should take this with a grain of salt. It is quite fun, but, other than taking someone's word for it, what is the best ways to judge equipment? 1) take it home and place that piece in your system, changing only that piece, match levels and listen. Do A/B vs the original piece and have fun. 2) go to a friend's house and listen to his/her system with that particular piece and judge. Understanding that if you buy that piece and take it home, most times it will perform quite differently in your system than in your friends. 3) go to shows and hear a piece in the set-up presented at the show. With the understanding that Number 2 above will also apply. WC is giving (in my opinion) an honest view of how certain pieces sound in his system. I like that. But, I do understand and acknowledge that along the way, he has changed many things. So, direct comparisons were not possible in some cases. in others, like now, there can be direct A/B comparisons. So, my point (finally) is that I wouldn't be so quick to say that previous equipment tested was inferior or bad or lacking. It was and is an evolutionary process, not direct A/B comparisons. so memory plays into this in a very real way. But, that memory has to also consider that it was more than one piece, or room, that changed. Still great fun and I'm enjoying this greatly. Tell you what I would really like now. Audio Research REF 10 pre amp vs Atmosphere top of the line pre, vs CAT, etc. Changing only the pre-amp. I know, hard to do, but wouldn't that be fun also? enjoy |
@skootb There are so many contradictions in this thread I wouldn't worry too much. It's a fun read, but between contradictions, people basing opinions on equipment they have not owned, and multiple profiles people use to pump up their own opinions (and help sell equipment)... probably best to not believe everything you read on the internet. The differences are pretty slight among most of the high end amps. |
So that everyone here understands WHY my opinion changes. I wasn't saying your opinion couldn't change, or you couldn't like something else better. I just meant that some things you say now are the exact opposite of things you originally said about the .8 line. I had an x250.5 and traded that in for a pair of xa60.8s and was happy in pretty much every way. I only sold because I needed to downsize. (I don't mention that to try to defend Pass or anything, but you have said people should only comment if they have actually owned the amps) |
@thejeenyus54 I had a Pass Labs X350 and an X5 for home theater at my previous house, and it was absolutely fantastic. When we moved to our new house and started having kids, I downsized and thought I would try to find a 7 channel amp that would work well. 10 years later and many many 7 channel amps later - the goal has always been to get back to that sound I had with the two Pass Lab amps running my home theater. I had the Odeon last year - an experience I do not wish to repeat. However, that was my experience. Dave |
ALL, So that everyone here understands WHY my opinion changes. 1. When i review an amplifier, i give my opinion right at that particular point and i am comparing to everything i have owned previously. 2. As i continue to push forward and bring other amplifiers, my ratings/opinion of previous amplifiers will change. Why? because i am trying new offerings that i had not tried before. And to address the entire pass labs opinion, hell yes the statement above about the 250.8 was TRUE at that point in time before i tried plinius, luxman, hegel, block audio, jeff rowland, simaudio, etc, etc, etc. WHY would anyone think in their right mind that my opinion won’t change when i am continuing to try new high caliber amps? It is no different than you going to your room and declaring the Parasound A21 sitting in your room the very best amp ever. Of course you would say that because you haven’t tried luxman, hegel, simaudio, plinius etc. My thread evolves as new things are entering my living room. Closing note: Yes, Pass labs is behind many amps right now. Unless you own the top XS amps, or possibly the 200.8, 200,5, you don’t know what you are missing out on. I remember trying the luxman 900u vs the 350.8 and it was just a shame how broken the 350.8 sounded. Huge monster amp and it has no way besting a 150 watt/channel amp. |
WC loves to kind of bash Pass .8s these these days, but right there at the top of this thread is Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned. |
I don't understand your comment about Pass Labs not being good for a two channel home theater. Isn't that the case with any amp? I don't see how the problem is the fault of the Pass Labs. Two channel theater? That is never going to be satisfying with any amp. I'm considering the the Pass Labs 250.8 for R,L, and Classe CA5200 for remaining channels of my home theater. I now own the Plinius Odeon. I like to try different things too but I'm not sure if this one will be a step up. What do you think? Cheers, Steve |
Uh. I think I see why there are none. (Sim Audio 880-M) Read the comments after the review...Yikes https://www.stereophile.com/content/simaudio-moon-evolution-880m-monoblock-power-amplifier |
There is..... I'm sure.... quite a few other combinations of equipment that will make for great sounding Neoliths. The Solid State side of it still has the D'ag, SimAudio, Gryphon. And the coveted Naim Statement, which has been endgame for some. Then there are some of the tube amplifiers that may bring great sound.... but minus the high db levels of Solid State gear. Tube preamps could also bring something new to the table. There is one thing that is now quite clear..... (with WCSS testing). The Neolith is an endgame speaker system, that is welcome in the heady company of any speaker made in the world. |
I am not sure why ML would bother bringing supporting gear that is less than perfect to the show. Makes no sense at all. When MBL demos their reference speakers, they pair it with their reference gear. They want all who hear to hear these speakers at their very best. I use MBL as an example only because they have a big reference speaker (101Extreme). I don't own MBL but until recently owned ML for 12 years. I'm pretty sure that someone that is capable of buying $80k speakers will not buy them on the hunch that they can make them sound better with other gear. No, they are going to want to know what the ML synergizes with so they can make a logical informed purchasing decision. Most people are not like WC in that they are not going to try a myriad of amps to get to the right combination. And that's why we are so enthralled with what he is doing. I salute you WC and know exactly why you were so upset about the reports of this demo at the Florida show. |
minorl, Right. My last show, in NY 2-3 years ago, included a Sanders Sound Systems electrostatic hybrid. It was in a small narrow room with not much space behind the speaker. As a result, it sounded rolled off and lifeless, far inferior to an excellent setup at a private home. I considered buying it based on the private demo, but would have rejected it after 2 seconds of listening at that show. Whoever set the system up at that show doesn't know much about optimizing the sound of dipoles in general. Then there is the price of the room. A famous manufacturer like Wilson can afford to get the best room which has the proper space to demonstrate his speaker, but a tiny guy like Sanders who sells direct because he can't afford a dealer network, is handicapped. No excuse for ML which can afford a good room, but just needs informed setup. |