I'm in no way shape or form going to apologize given the attacks I went through yesterday by we all know who.
@whitecamaross That's unfortunate.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
@david_ten I'm in no way shape or form going to apologize given the attacks I went through yesterday by we all know who. I want to continue here sharing my findings and for those who have nothing positive to add to just either read and stay out or just to not come back. Anyhow , I am doing the demo of the Odin 2 powercord, Odin 2 speaker cables , dcs upsampler and dcs clock as I type this. For those of you who are interested in hearing my findings then please stay tuned. |
Regarding the above post directed at @maplegrovemusic (partially copied below)... F88k maplegrove, there are envious idiots, morons and trolls everywhere on the internet He (maplegrovemusic) IS NOT "envious", nor an "idiot", nor a "moron", nor a "troll." No one on this forum, let alone a member with standing, deserves the opening / language used: "F88K [aka Fu*k] maplegrove"... His posts above are on point and are valuable perspective for the forum community. An apology and a retraction are in order, including from the OP, whose reaction to the same post from essrand is one of felt "kindness" Thank you for your kind words @e |
F88k maplegrove, there are envious idiots, morons and trolls everywhere on the internet. The best thing to do to them is ignore them and not even bother with a response. Audiogon forums was a snoozefest before WC arrived, and I love his journey and I think I speak for everybody that most of us are grateful for it. I have noted how you respond to almost everyone who seeks your advice without fail. Do carry on enjoying this passion and share with us all. We should all be thankful that generous and passionate people like you exist. |
Agreed tjassoc and riaa on the above. Concerned about wc’s back.... For what it’s worth my 2 cents on the Simadio 740p, 850p and arc ref 10 comparisons as a couple posters asked. A few folks on this thread including WC gave me very helpful advice throughout so thanks again. Over the span of 2 weeks I had many hours to compare these 3 broken-in preamps in my system. Final notes on the 740p vs the Ref10 in my home system: - Ref10 a touch warmer/richer. 740p can sound a bit thin on certain songs in comparison - Ref10 wider stage. some songs remarkably so - Ref10 a bit more engaging and less fatiguing - Ref10 more bottom weight, but not boomy - same resolution/detail. So, if I had to choose bw these two, definitely Ref10. Perhaps a 15% bump in overall enjoyment. That said I was quite surprised how well the 740p held up. Then I brought home the 850p. Compared to the 740p my jaw dropped. The 850p performed with an increased overall smoothness/liquidity, brought forward recessed instruments w exceptional spacing, resolution increased/inner details on songs I had never heard before, tidied up the soundstage, added coherent bass,...was hard to put a finger on any one exact change. Overall I had never experienced the lack of fatigue after playing for hours. That said, I can see why someone might prefer the Ref10 even in my Sim (amp and DAC) dominated system (vs the 850p). The Ref10 adds a touch of warmth and a wider soundstage and perhaps is a slight touch more forgiving. I think the 850p gets out of the way better to play what is on the recording more than the 740p and the Ref10. I decided to stick with system synergy (which I think may be the primary reason for the slight nod to the 850p vs ref10) as I wasn’t quite ready to build a system around the Ref10 (although I was tempted). I think the 850p and ref10 are incredible and a good example of how individual preferences may vary. |
Hahah. You’re right Guido. @Riaa. I’m going to check out that link. Oh and you're right about having a passion and trying to monetize it somehow. Actually , there's a quote that the joker said in one of the Batman movies that says : " if you're good at something, never do it for free " and you know that kind stuck in my head for years and years and now it is when I'm going to probably begin to apply. |
Here is a good example of a reviewer telling you the Pros/Cons of a particular piece on Youtube. Spend 17 minutes of your day and see how its done properly. This is his latest review and follows the format of all his reviews. youtube.com/watch?v=FIl3BtdonRI Glad I could inspire you TJ. If I had your brains and tactful nature I probably could have retired in my late 30's. Sadly most people don't use their passion for something to their economic advantage. Nothing better than having a hobby/interest you love and make a living at it. My back is very thankful that I didn't try doing that with this hobby.... moving 100+ Pound Speakers and Amps around all the time. Thank God WCSS is about the size of Rob Gronkowski....and he has his back too unfortunately. |
maplegrove - did you ever consider the consequences if what you stated was true? If what you're inferring is that the experiences whitecamaross shares on this forum are done to exploit sales, eventually someone who made a purchase of a reviewed piece would identify the actual performance of the gear to be different from what was written in this forum and post about it. At just over 3 years, has this ever happened? It has not. whitecamaross is pretty fair and accurate with his evaluations. He has repeatedly stated he is not bias. Because of his honesty, products are identified ethically - independent of whatever dealer relationships may or may not exist. These relationships only dictate what gear will be available - not the integrity of his evaluations. Now that doesn't mean we all have the same goals. Conversely - we have our own goals with our gear to enjoy music. The insight we gain is valuable - retailers with brick and mortar stores are scarese and (my) time is limited. And just for the record - I have no affiliation with whitecamaross other than this forum. riaa award collectors on facebook - I admire your encouragement and the fact that you were able to retire at 40! Thanks for sharing, you've given me more motivation to continue to work my plan and chase my dreams! |
Not True about the subscribers. DARKO, ZERO FIDELITY and many others only review 2-3 pieces a month. You dont have to do a Quasi-Daily show like Guttenberg (5 times a week) and many of his Vids arent reviews about particular gear but just general talk about a given topic. These guys dont give rave reviews about everything AND they even say other brands/models they prefer over the piece they are currently reviewing. Doesnt seem to stop the product from coming in from sources. I think your "speculating" in your own head too much without actually doing the homework in this particular area. Check out these guys above as well as THE NEXT BEST THING AUDIO, OCD HI-FI GUY and many others. Im sure others on this thread can give you many other guys to "follow" on youtube. After you see what these guys are doing..and how frequently...you can do something that works around your job/family etc. Im sure most of the gear your offered probably wont be in the same swimming pool as the stuff your currently messing with BUT you get to experiment for free and most likely get to keep the pieces you like for 50%-60% of list price. This thread is NOTHING compared to the volume of people you can reach in that medium. You never know till you try. You can always fall back on this thread if nothing pans out for whatever reason. If a Slippery Rock State College Dropout like me can retire in his Mid 40's so can you. Believe in yourself internally (not false outward bravado) and use your God given talents/gifts to the best of your ability. I am 100% confident you can do it if you put in the work. |
@riaa. i am contemplating that. However, just remember that it is A JOB once you are on Youtube and want to make money. If you don’t put out videos constantly then your subscribers drop off like flies. With my 9-5, it can be a challenge to keep posting videos on Youtube all the time. I would have to totally be on a schedule every single day in order to record, edit, upload, and constantly look for new content. i can’t be uploading a new amplifier review every week. I mean, i would run out of amps to review quite fast ! If i am doing Youtube, i gotta do it right or else i won’t. One final thing you have to remember is that I must sell everything i buy at some point. If were to be harsh with components that are not great to my ears then who would buy this component from me when i need to move it? and if manufacturers were to send me stuff to review, do you really think they will send me stuff if they feel i might talk bad about their product? They won’t send me anything so i go back to square one which is me having to buy product as i am doing now and then having to sell it again. It is a VERY VERY DIFFICULT spot to be in. |
Whitecamaross - Upset , Angy , Jealous , Poor . None of these are who I am . I just saw a pattern with you . Saying something is the best you've ever heard and then saying your selling it immediately raised red flags so I decided to do some research . There are so many products listed at High end Palace's used and consignment room that have been in your room and are currently in your room to be a coincidence . One I missed earlier was the Classe monoblocks seen in your room pictures . Block Audio , no one had ever heard of that company before you reviewed them . Lo and behold High End Palace sells that brand too . Just another coincident I guess . There is nothing wrong with doing what your doing , but you should have been forthright with the readers as it changes motives . I am not on a mission to keep this topic going . Just come clean and we can move on . |
My 2 Cents is you should get a Youtube channel going. You could probably manually delete all unwanted comments...and the Atomic Bombs I drop on certain people wouldnt get deleted by a moderator. :) If you havent looked around youtube most of these reviewers get to try all this stuff for free and do the same thing you do. For all I know they might get paid a decent chunk of change too (I really don't know). How does Steve Guttenberg afford all those fancy shirts?? He has almost 100,000 subscribers and he mostly auditions stuff well under 10K. You just wouldnt be able to audition what you wanted to...unless you pay for it like you do now. Cant imagine why you havent given that some serious thought....I dont care how Ugly you are I would watch every episode. LOL |
All- So today has been quite an interesting day. I feel like it has been all about attacking me or figuring out how to tick me off. I don’t know if it is because i have established great relationships with many dealers and the fact that i probably end up locking in better deals than the majority of you could that some of you are bitter or totally angry about it. Please let’s not forget, and i want to remind you as well, that i buy far more than most of you do. This is just ONE of the many reasons why i can buy and try things as often as i do. Also, this is VERY LABOR INTENSIVE. I do this ALONE for the most part which means i uncrate the Neoliths alone, i uncrate the boulder 2060 alone, i put together and disassemble crates together constantly. I move speakers and heavy amplifiers all over my room floor or living room constantly. I drive over to Uhaul, rent a truck and then drive 6 hours and then come home and have to have MY WIFE help me offload some of this heavy stuff so that YOU ALL can sit behind your computer and read what i have to say. How come NONE of this is being put out on front street or spoken about? How come the work behind scenes isn’t being acknowledged? Is it because i haven’t brought it up? Yes, i had to have my wife help me lift those 170 lb XS300s pass lab power supplies off my truck and then get them out of the box. Have you ever tried getting a 170 lb pass labs out of a box and felt the razor sharp heatsinks that can easily chop up your fingers?. Where is compensation for all of this? I love what i do, but to assume that i can’t at least recuperate my investment when i am with 4 herniated disc, spinal stenosis, etc is pretty unfair. Let’s keep it real, i am making an effort day in day out, but i need to make it worth it for me as well and not just for this to be a one way street. Just my .02 cts |
Was out all day but just now seeing the BBQ Bob reference. I love blues and it's crazy how good some of his stuff was for now being nearly 100 years old. Some of the lyrics don't really pass the test of time but then again it's nearly 100 years ago and different world. Ah well, back to regular programming ... |
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Gentlemen - I have a few things to say. 1 - whitecamaross stated repeatedly that he buys at reasonable prices so when he sells, he's not losing money in the buying / selling process. This is just being financially prudent. 2 - many times he explains that he can or cannot try something because he doesn't have the opportunity to purchase it at a very reasonable price. 3 - I commend him for doing this, don't we all try and get the best deal / value when investing in our equipment? Independent if it's new or used - I do. I remember when I was a new audiophile, I purchased a new Audio Research preamp and went to trade it in for an upgrade less than 6 months later and being offered 50% of what I paid for it (from the same dealer). I politely told my personal sales associate you've either made me pay too much for the purchase or your not offering me what the equipment is worth if I'm losing 50% of the value in less than 6 months. Either way, I won't continue to invest in this commodity. I left the store quite upset and professionally made sure the store knew it. The store owner later contacted me and offered to work things out with me. 4 - if a person buys and sells equipment regularly, they establish relationships and network themselves within the audio community. These relationships allow them opportunities an infrequent purchaser wouldn't be offered. I personally experienced this with the same dealer I just referenced when I was more active and it's how I purchased our first pair of Wilson speakers. 5 - whitecamaross himself explained to me that he gets deals (when we spoke on the phone) when he wanted to purchase my Pass XA-200.5's in trade plus money for his Pass XS-150's. He made me a VERY fair offer and the only reason I didn't do the deal is because I want a pair of XS-300's. This was before I knew of this thread. And, btw - I'm now vindicated about the XS-300's! 6 - I could NEVER afford to evaluate all this equipment if I was experiencing significant loss on each piece. Long ago, I recognize, accept and actually hope he makes a profit on moving this much equipment. If he doesn't - the thread won't continue. And if it did continue, it will be limited. So before anyone has a problem with anything, take an overview of what's happening. This is a win / win scienero with no one is getting hurt. Everything should be so. We the readers are getting insight to equipment most of use wouldn't get the insight of and we get to share / exchange our experiences. We all benefit. maplegrovemusic - I've admired your contributions in other posts, you obviously have experience and knowledge that you've shared. To people who didn't understand things audio, you've explained the few things (that I read) well. I'm sure your experiences would help others, so if future posts are possible - keep it constructive. I may be taking things too series, so like the Budweiser commercial - Dilly Dilly! |
WC, I recall that you liked the Merrill ANAP cables, but can't find the details. Did you try the ANAP power cord? It is interesting that Merrill is the only manufacturer who gives true specs on the power cables, like capacitance and inductance. Nordost does this on IC and speaker cables, but not power cables. Merrill says that the ideal is both capacitance and inductance as low as possible for speed and clarity. It would be nice if the other mfr's gave these specs for power cords, which are the most critical cable, so maybe we could predict the sonic qualities without having to buy/sell endlessly. For IC's, Merrill has lower capacitance but higher inductance than Nordost. How all these specs really relate to sound is anyone's guess. I realize that cost no object Nordost Odin has amazed you the most. A few people have been pleased with all the ANAP cables, and they are inexpensive. How do you rate the ANAP's in relation to the other cables you have used? |
Man, was just really starting to absorb some great fresh thoughts on this thread, what seemed not a moment ago re: clocks, dacs, inputs, balancing neutrality, transparency vs long sessions/ certain genres vs catering to more genres. The journey to find the elusive balance for each individual’s taste. Love that. Found an interesting experience comparing the simaudio 740p and 850p versus the arc ref 10 in my system this month. For me it really shed light on those trade offs. WC has clearly articulated his goals and motives, and how they have evolved, during his search. I think many of ours evolve as well. Thanks again WC and all for the organic positive discourse |
You would not, you do like my posts, in your own way. I have been right many times... I believe Maple has a valid point. Though I don’t think WC is a dealer, I believe a close friend of him is a dealer and they help each other. Maybe they split profits ? Who knows ? Sure when you move that number of gear, it should only be a matter of time before you make a close friend out there. WC should not be mad about this. It’s just the life of having a big thread like this one. Chill out, it’ s just audio guys... |
@whitecamaross i can already picture the look on your face man.. lol.. Don't even bother with that guy. This is always bound to happen online. I know facts and can vouch for what you have owned and your knowledge as i am sure there are a ton of people here who feel the same way i do and who repeatedly thank you for all that you contribute and what you do. Gardens aren't always full of roses, there is always a thorn... |
whitecamaross - I am just a wannabe detective . The dacs high end palace have for sale in the used section are ESOTERIC D-03 REFERENCE D/A-DAC - DCS VIVALDI ONe . Are these the ones you have been talking about ? The timing of when you got rid of the Momentum would fall in line with why its shown as sold on the highend palace website . |
Maple, My Rowlands are gone... My Dag Integrated has been gone for the longest time. i actually traded that in towards the Constellation gear i had. Pass labs xp30 is long gone, Neoliths gone, etc, etc. Am i the only person who has what i own? And although i don’t own you an explanation, WHY do you care so much what i do with my gear? should i just store it in the backyard until the south florida heat and humidity melts it away? is that what i should be doing in your book? It does not matter what i do, where i sell it, how i sell, who sells it for me. I can do as i please with it, but one thing you need to be sure on is that i OWN ALL OF IT. I don’t sell a thing for ANY DEALER. Every single piece i have here is mine. I don’t have to sell for any dealers. i have no need for it. i also don't know what is it that you think i need to do with my equipment? i mean it is common sense i have to buy it so i can review it and then sell it at some point so what is the big deal ? |
Whitecamaross - I wasn't thinking huge amounts of profit . Maybe 5 or 10 % which is a nice little stipend on hifi gear . I did just do a google of hifi in florida . Very interesting finding so far . High end Palace has a online website with a used room . So far I Seen the Dynaudio c4 platinum , Martin Logan Neolith , jeff Rowland 925 monoblocks , pass labs xp-30 , Dan dagstino momentum integrated, dcs Vivaldi 1 YOU HAD ALL OF THIS IN YOUR HOUSE RECENTLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is the link folks http://highendpalace.com/REFERENCE_DEMOS-CERTIFIED_TRADE-INS_&_CONSINGMENTS.htm |
So it is a great thing my last post was removed because i gave Maplegrovemusic a piece of my mind. I am going to just say that @maplegrovemusic really is beyond ridiculous. I’ve been to WCCs house, met his wife, daughter, and have seen his room. The man is in crazy back pain from all the herniated discs he has from lifting so many power amplifiers off the floor. These are the amplifiers that he shares his views on here for ALL OF US to read. Meanwhile. you come here to bash or create an entire scenario without ACTUAL FACTS of what you are saying? WCSS probably has THE BEST STUFF i have seen south of West Palm Beach. i was there and saw first hand all the messages, calls, and even DEALERS who call him to ask him what lines they should take on. As a matter of fact, i was there listening to the boulder 2010 a few weeks ago and the dealer who he bought the Alexia 1s from called him and asked him what his thoughts were on Boulder gear because he is thinking about bringing the line onboard. I know of other dealers who asked him if they should get the focal line, etc, etc. This goes on and on and on! . Why do you think this is? because he KNOWS what he is talking about. He knows with REAL LIFE HANDS ON EXPERIENCE which is something that only a few here can really say they also have. The only experience some people have here is flipping through pages of a magazine and reading and touching the pictures of a component they will never see in real life. When you bring comments like that just for kicks, it really shows a lack of respect in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with ANYTHING he has to say about components AT ALL. Don’t worry, he does not need your validation or anyone else’s validation. He should be charging for the advice he is giving and i’ve told him to start his own YOUTUBE channel and collect on all the advice he gives. Enough said |
I try to assemble a system that recreates the illusion of a live performance. Earlier in this thread, I became aware this isn't everyone's goal. Whitecamaross and many contributors stated their own preferences - and that's fine, our systems allow us to enjoy our music the way we want. Occasionally, I gain great value and insight from whitecamaross and others sharing their experiences. This just happened, which prompted me to contribute. There are many variables involved when striving to recreate the illusion of a live performance - the listening room acoustics and the quality of the recording are 2 examples. There are times though when equipment unquestionably presents things more realistically (like when applause is imaged very clearly and distinctly as being in front of the performance instead of being background haze). A system like this conveys music precisely as it was performed and recorded. Software (the recording) becomes critical. Most rock music is no longer engaging when replayed on our stereo, we prefer to listen to well recorded acoustic performances; contemporary jazz, solo artists with bands and orchestra music too - again, all recorded well that allows one to experience the venue in which the performance occurred. While others may enjoy equipment that allows music that isn't recorded as well to be portrayed in a more enjoyable way (sweetness per whitecamaross), we prefer our system to have the highest fidelity possible - because when great performances (that are recorded very well) are listened to, they're an exceptional experience. Recently, whitecamaross described what I experienced with Wilson speakers - they convey different acoustics of equipment / performance / recording / venue very well. And kstaken very well compared the Luxman and Benchmark equipment. I've always wondered what the Luxman sounded like and now, with this comparison - I have a good insight (minus the expense of the experience). And I have the insight with the Benchmark equipment as well so thank you kstaken! Humbly, I would also like to share a few of my own requests and findings. First - whenever we're evaluating something, our system must be at a performance level that will easily and clearly allow the change to heard / noticed / observed. Yes, whitecamaross's system is that and more, but it's amazing how many people state cables make no difference. Everyone who listened to our system easily identified the different sound (when cables were switched blindly) and which way sounded more realistic. Second - when we make a change, it should be only with a single component in a system, and with music we're intimately familiar with (and again with well recorded music). This way, we can specifically identify what difference that change made. Sometimes whitecamaross makes multiple changes that makes acutely identifying a components' sound more difficult (and I realize this is done to obtain a desired result). Finally - I compared Pass XA-200.5 with the Momentum monos in a system I was familiar with, with my own music - and I recognized the differences. The Momentum amp's had better bass but were dryer. By this I mean the didn't convey the acoustic performance as naturally. While I'm an engineer by profession - I won't begin to pretend to quantify what was occuring (or wasn't occuring) that made the presentation slightly less real but it was easily noticed. Thank you once again whitecamaross and all those who contribute. I hope this thread provides each other with shared experiences we all gain from - I know it does for me :-). Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. It's the best time of the year! Safe, healthy and Happy Holidays to all :-) |
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@whitecamaross I'm really interested in your comparison of Esoteric K1 and DCS Vivaldi. I'm currently evaluating if there are any wins in stepping up to that level on the digital side. I currently have a DCS Debussy along with the Mutec MC-3+ and Mutec Ref 10 master clock along with the Benchmark DAC3 and a Schiit Yggdrasil. I've been seriously considering either an Esoteric K-01xs or the Grandioso K1. So far the only thing in that price range I've been able to bring in to my system has been the Nagra Tube DAC which is something you might actually like. It's fundamentally pretty transparent but it has a tube so adds just a hint of bloom which I actually found to be very well done. Not sure it will be for me but I felt it was a very good sounding piece. |
Techno dude has cracked the case . This is nothing more than a dealer using someone to sell his wares . The pieces of the puzzle have been left for many months now . Who proclaims something is the best he's ever heard one month and sell it the next with no new product declared better ? Some investigating I am sure will prove this . What's a close dealer to the ops location , someone close by see what this store has been selling and taking in for used equipment , I am sure it will be one and the same as the ops gear . Transparent gear does not make you want to have short listening sessions , quite the opposite in reality . 100db listening sessions with distortion in the system is what will make for unpleasant sessions . |
kstaken, Your ML CLX are about 10 dB more efficient than my Audiostatic 240's. I use only the single panel of the 240's to get the best clarity although the bass is sacrificed. In addition, I use the Enigmacoustics tweeter in parallel with the 240's. With its 8 kHz setting, the impedance of the combo is very low, and who knows what the parallel phase relationships are. So I think the Benchmark AHB2 works for you mainly because of the 10 dB higher efficiency and simpler setup. I did appreciate the purity of the AHB2 at modest volumes, as well as the purity of the CLX. BTW, the strumming of the banjo and guitar often produce exciting HF transients where the speed of the Benchmark and CLX are an asset. |
As far as the Benchmark AHB2 shutting down, I have 2 running as bridged monos and with the Martin Logan CLX they've never flinched. I checked with Benchmark before trying this and they said there should be no problems even though they hadn't heard of anyone using them on the CLX and they were correct. BTW, to clarify the AHB2 is the amp, the LA4 or HPA4 is the preamp. HPA4 just adds a headphone section and that's what I actually own that replaced my Luxman C900U. |
@riaa you’re right I don’t primarily listen to classic rock and if I did I would probably choose tubes and a big bass heavy speaker. But one of the big reasons that I appreciate transparency so much is because I don’t listen to a narrow range of music and the system needs to handle whatever I choose to throw at it. For me that works best when the system does as much as it can to simply get out of the way. The only time this really fails for me is on some horribly crushed modern loudness war productions where nothing is really going to help. Classic rock is never really a problem, but the presentation is definitely different and I 100% get why that won’t work for everyone. For me ... I can go from a Mahler symphony to Billie Eilish to Love to Branford Marsalis to Portishead and finish with Iron Maiden and it all works fantastically. As I write this I’m listening to Robert Johnson and if you’ve heard these you know the transfers from 78s of these 1930s recordings can be iffy. But the resolution of this chain is so high that it gives you everything these ancient recording have to give and for me being able to connect to such influential music on this level is just magical. Anyway, I’m not really trying to advocate for anything. Just sharing my thoughts after lurking on this thread for what seems like forever. I was actually worried somebody might make a comparison to viber6 but I think he plays the violin whereas I play the banjo. Pipe and slippers ... nah. |
Thanks for the correction Riaa. As far as the amp shutting down, that might be an issue here because the Alexia 1s are pigs when it comes to power. I love how much they draw me into the music even though they aren’t perfect and I wish they did some other things better but those other things they don’t do are not really of much importance to me. Again, soundstage width, height, control ,musicality and clarity are all at the top of my list. Everything else such as superb transparency and neutrality aren’t as important but this doesn't mean I don't care about them. I still need some of those traits "sprinkled " somewhere in there. |
kstaken, Thanks for both of your well-written posts, well said. In addition, I find that another problem with going for complementary sonic colorations is that although they may appear to match, they don't quite. For analogies, a pick-me-up from strong coffee won't cure a hangover from too much alcohol. If you want the road feel of a sports car, don't sit on plush pillows. When I tried the warm Classe D200, I couldn't get the snap of my Bryston 2.5B SST2 by fiddling with my EQ. This is why going for transparency actually makes things easier--you can concentrate on upgrades of sources, speakers, etc. I think WC's situation is that his particular music recordings are artificially processed and unpleasant to an extent, so he naturally seeks warmth for some of them. Listeners to more naturally recorded classical music and some jazz can feel more comfortable with transparency. Incidentally, I almost bought the Benchmark AHB2 because it sounded extremely close to my Bryston. The Benchmark specs indicated that it should work to provide higher power and more current than my Bryston does, but in practice it shut down. I don't know why, and too bad. If you have speakers with high impedance, then bridged AHB2 gives high power and purity for only $6000 retail, although I couldn't test this on my very low impedance stats. |