Most cables take at least 1 hour or so after being moved to settle in ...Some even longer. I have also experienced this.
It is true.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Gryphon cables have that magic recipe inside them. When plugged into ONLY Gryphon components, those ones recognize each other so they tune themselves up together to please WC experienced golden ears...If Gryphon used these cables when "Voicing" their amps and other products, it could be somewhat true that Gryphon cables sound better with Gryphon equipment, than other cables do. |
Guys , SO WHAT if gryphon sounds best with their own cables? WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL??? spectral only works with MIT cables and ??? What is the issue ? The reason why anyone buys a mephisto is to maximize their listening experience where cost is no object. Nobody buys a mephisto who is broke or is trying to figure out how to make their next car payment. It’s stupid to believe that if you can buy a 60k amp that you would refuse to buy the cables that sound best with it. Do you refuse to only put 93 octane fuel if your car is a dodge viper ? Because last time I checked, it specifically says "premium fuel only" so then what’s the argument there?? Oh that’s a flawed design that the viper only takes 93 octane. F... That. Etc. Really ?????? It’s STUPID AS HELL to think that way. NOBODY SAID that a mephisto is for the luxman, simaudio owner. 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT groups of people. People who get a VIP table at a high end club here on south beach don’t complain that costs AT LEAST $5000 dollars to get one for the night. Oh and guess what? A drink HERE, on south beach, cost $30 freaking dollars for a damn drink. Do you think you walk into a top club here NOT KNOWING it’s gonna cost you to drink? It’s all relative. You wanna try the best ? You wanna go into the best restaurant? Best club? Then PAY or stay the F home. Simple. The MEPHISTO was never intended to be for technos of the world. When they built it, people with your mentality is not who they are after. Do you think bentley makes cars keeping in mind toyota buyers ? |
A NEC $150,000 business phone system will only work with NEC phones, you cannot plug in a different brand and it will work. My IBM, Lenovo servers specified only IBM replacement hard drives. You could use a different brand but it still had to be a specific one and if you did you Did Not get all the information from the management software that you do with a IBM hard drive. Do you think maybe when they designed the Mephisto cables they used specific material, build methods, etc that would be optimized to the specific design, hardware and material inside the Mephisto amp itself? |
Possible. Look, wilson uses transparent cables inside their speakers for instance and the alexx and models above the Alex use their ultra expensive transparent opus cables inside. So what could this possibly mean? That MAAAAAAAAYBE getting transparent opus cables which are ultra expensive could be the best way to go. People don't understand that THIS IS NO DIFFERENT with many industries. I want everyone to be clear on the fact that there are levels in different industries and only those who don't play at the highest levels tend to be the ones who looooove to criticize (although this is not everyone who does this). |
great talk video i thought WC. really demonstrating to us all how synergy works (informed trial and error really) and the tremendous expenses, outside of component cost, in making a component sing as part of a system. his work now is a further refinement of this lesson, which is that at a certain level, the brand has probably ironed out a synergy for you. to me what is very interesting is that really integrated amps are more attractive these days as they reduce cable expenditure (IC and PC) whilst giving you that immediate pre/power synergy. lets one play at a level they may not be able to otherwise. i certainly realise now i cannot (in immediate future anyway) afford gryphon class a. as whilst i might be able to afford an essence for example, i cannot then afford the pre and the cables i'd want to hook it up with. |
@mr.gray. I like how you worded everything above. I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes at a certain level manufacturers have tuned everything for you so you don't need to chase anything else and yes Integrateds are extremely attractive because they save you tremendous amount of money but they won't touch their separates. |
WC, I strongly disagree with the concept of company synergy. You happen to prefer the Gryphon Mephisto with Gryphon VIP cables because of the softening/mellowing effect compared to the Nordost Odin/Valhalla. Someone else or I might prefer Nordost because it would maximize sparkle and other things. I suspect on the Mephisto, you would also prefer other softening cables like Cardas, Ansuz, Wireworld, compared to Nordost. Perhaps the Ansuz would produce a fabulous result for you, maximizing the sparkle/focus while giving just enough softening to take away your unease with the Nordost. In the end, a company team has their own concept and preference for how they want their products to sound together. Carried further, Gryphon might think that it is best to use their entire product line, including the speaker. However, you might not like their speakers. If you were listening with their team in their rooms, you might prefer other ancillary components with their G speakers, and the results might be different with even each G model. They would likely be different with your Wilson. Soon you will try all this on your Maggie 20.7, and the results are likely to be different as well. If you presently think that your present combo is the ultimate, then you might as well shut down the entire thread, because nothing else can be quite as good. You will have locked yourself into this 1 combo of ultimate synergy. Of course, this is absurd, and you likely will find other speakers better for you than the Wilson Alexia 2, and then you will have to dump all your present synergistic components, and discover the magic with only one set of new synergistic components to go with the new speaker. Again, absurd. Even with your present setup, the ideal setup would be different depending on the quality of the recording. For the most natural recording like Perhaps Love, you might prefer Nordost + Mephisto, but for most lousy processed recordings where the Nordost shows the defects, the Gryphon VIP would be the best. Another factor is your moods from day to day. One day you may be stressed out and then prefer the softening effect of the VIP. Another day you are happily excited and revved up and may prefer Nordost. I have it much easier, because all my components are chosen for transparency/clarity/brilliance as the overriding factor. If I get a new speaker, I won't need to throw out my present components and get completely different ones in order to get some magic synergy with the new speaker. Whatever characteristics of the new speaker, I will still seek to maximize those factors I value, so my present ancillary components will still retain the good results I have. Don't say that my cheaper components are not as revealing as your more expensive ones, so my reasoning is not valid. I assure you that this is not the case. My Mytek has far more sparkle, etc. than the Merrill I tried. The Merrill has other qualities than other people would prefer. It has more expensive parts than my Mytek, but the different design concepts make it sound different, not the expensive parts. With the critical performance of cars, it is likely that more expensive, finely tuned parts improve the performance. The same is not necessarily true about audio electronics and cables. Even with cheap cars, you can't put a round peg into a square hole. The design specifies that only certain parts will do. In other areas like drinks at clubs, it is a total farce that the same drink in a modest restaurant costs $5, but $30 in the fancy place. The talented bartender when he was working at the modest restaurant got a better offer at the fancy restaurant, so his same magic recipe now fetches $30. Of course, the real reason it is more expensive, is the artificial social image of the fancy place, with more money needed to create the fancy atmosphere, the larger space with more overhead, etc. More basic than all of this is the overall issue of money--assume there is a hypothetical rich guy who is prepared to spend a million bucks on his total system. He might still appreciate and prefer the sonic qualities of a small cheap speaker like the Paradigm Persona B or a large cheap speaker like the Tekton Moab. But after careful listening and study of the market, he may decide that the DCS Vivaldi offers the best performance, and he spends big bucks on that. He may prefer the particular sound of the entire Odin 2 loom, and say it is worth spending for that. On the other hand, he may decide that he doesn't like the sound character of the $250,000 Relentless, and prefers the sound character of the $2500 Mytek. Money may or may not buy audio happiness. |
Viber I do think better parts can and do indeed make a difference. The end result boils down to how they’re implemented. If this were not true, there would be a slew of Chinese knockoffs of the high end equipment, that sounds identically because they copied the circuit designs using much cheaper components. Price alone of course is not a reflection of a good end result. |
Something needs to be said about people liking a particular group of components and how they unite to create music. For instance, I was talking with someone yesterday (not going to name him) who has the Gryphon pandora and spectral Preamp. He said that to him, the Gryphon pandora sounded bright but smooth at the same time. He had high expectations for it and he is returning it. that said, his source is dcs Rossini, wilson Audio alexia 2, a krell Amplifier from the 90s (don’t know the model) and cables along the lines of the middle of the pack cardas or old generation transparent cables. First, I want to be clear: that is an approximation of what he has when it comes cables. It isn’t at my level or whatever you all could consider to be high tier group cables. Ok so he said he prefers the spectral Preamp over the Pandora because it has more resolution, Information, but he also said it is bright and it doesn’t make him tap his feet after listening to it for a while. Anyhow my response to him was that you can’t just drop a preamp or an amp and be said and done. He said that he believes he can pick up the house sound of any component regardless. So in short, he thinks gryphon is too much of a presentation or that the sound is like " guns blazing" all the time etc. I told him that was my feeling with mephisto and as I started to change cables then things changed. I also said many other things that I am not going to get into. Anyhow, there are 2 ways of looking at his particular case: 1. He is right, the Pandora shouldn’t have to sound as it does and the spectral Preamp indeed Is his preference even though he also said it was bright after a while and never made it tap his feet. He said the spectral sounded way better even with his krell amp but he negates this comment by saying he brought in the Pandora because his spectral was too bright and not engaging. 2. He is trying to look good in a toxito and wearing fucked up shoes from 1990. He needs better cables and at least a more current Amplifier with more solution or better parts etc than a krell from the 1990s. (He could choose any of the current Amplifier offerings from any brand ) Which argument do you lean towards? |
Viber last post is most probably his best ever to date on this thread. He hits it on the nail. WC’s latest and most unusual extase for the Gryphon cables is just as always « ( specially coming from him) the meal of the day ». Ask yourself guys why suddenly all this fuss about cables he would never have considered before. Only logic answer is ...Jays + his dealer + Gryphon all have interest in that sudden cable pumping... |
I sold my Valhalla 2 XLRs here on audiogon...listed them and they were gone in less than 12 hours...so you are saying I sold a better cable and bought worse cables to make the mephisto sound worse ? Lol. So why am I not paying for the powercords and speaker cables ? Because I'm still trying to see what I do or if I prefer my Odin 1 speaker cables or powercords. I am STILL mixing and matching trying to see what happens even though this will be worthless once the Pandora gets here. For now, I'll have fun with it and spend time playing around until the preamp arrives. |
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Viber6 YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!. Putting together a system that you like is like being an a great cook selecting all the ingredients for exactly what makes music to YOUR ears, in your space and with your budget. It’s an art an takes a lot more skill and talent that assembling a predesigned system that was designed for what ever reason a manufacturer might have. Don’t get locked into think the manufacturer way is the only way. It may work for you and it may not. Experiment that’s part of the fun. When you get it right it’s amazing and enjoyable. If your not enjoying it your doing something wrong. |
The funny thing here is that 90% of the people who actively post here are still chasing something superior and seeing what they can buy to improve their systems... Doesn’t that really technically turn you into WSS to a certain extent? If the argument is " no because I don’t change all the time like wcss " then that is like saying well, "someone saying he/she is not an alcoholic because they only drink every Friday night until they black out and John drinks Friday, Saturday and Sunday until he passes out.".... Really ? So the frequency of how often you get wasted is what determines if you are an alcoholic? So your soul is spared because you only get SH!t faced Friday. Lol. Only john who drinks Friday Saturday Sunday is going to hell :-) |
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No need to delete anything. You made valid points and if you are able to hear changes with the tweaks outlined, that's awesome. You got a great thing. We all hear very different. We all choose different genres of music too. It's very subjective like judging the miss universe pageant. Who determined who's the prettiest woman? How did they arrive at that conclusion? Based on height ? Skin color? Accent? Smile ? Etc etc. Who the hell knows. |
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I'll also give an anecdote about a hypothetical music gentlemen who is a lot richer than me but has similarities to me. He is a wealthy interventional cardiologist who makes $2 million a year and has also developed important technologies in his field. Originally he went to a top music conservatory like Juilliard or Curtis and studied violin. He realized he wasn't as talented as his superstar classmates and became a doctor instead. He still plays string quartets every week with his former classmates who have decent musical careers. He plays a Guarneri del Gesu violin worth $5 million, which is not of the caliber of a few world famous Guarneri's such as the 1742 David Guarneri played most recently by Jascha Heifetz, the greatest violinist of the 20th Century, now owned by a Japanese corporation and worth about $50-100 million. His professional friends in his quartet can only afford $50,000 for each of their instruments. They think he is still an excellent violinist, but they all know that the 2nd violinist with the relatively cheap $50,000 violin sounds better than he does with his $5 million violin, mainly because the 2nd violinist has more skill. He also rehearses weekly in a semi-pro orchestra and sits up front close to all the action. The cardiologist has other rewarding musical activities, like having subscriptions to orchestral concerts at famous concert halls in the perfect seat which is front row center. He goes to string quartet, vocal and piano concerts also. One concert a week at an average of $100 a ticket adds up to $5,000 a year. He realizes that no audio system comes close to the experience he has by being in the best seat twice weekly, and by hearing the pure sound close up, unadulterated by studio processing. He still wants to hear his fabulous recordings of the greatest musicians as best as he can, so he decides that he is willing to spend about $200,000 on the total system, but no more. He has everything in its proper perspective. Well, that's my anecdote and metaphor. Draw your own conclusions. |
Viper666.......so tell us about your fantastic Carlo Robelli Violin......and how it sounds compared to the Guarneri.......and the modifications you made to it. Describe in your eloquent manner the aural qualities only you hear from your comparatively modest instrument . What gauge lamp wire did you use for each string? Any fuses involved? Built in Rane? I can’t wait to hear about the bow. |
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dguitarnut, Seriously, there are many violinists who obsess over many things. The materials used to make strings all have different sound. We have all experimented with different brands of strings. The position of the bridge, and the soundpost inside, in relation to the bridge feet. The height of the bridge, which affects the tension on the strings and the comfort of the player when pressing the left fingers on the fingerboard. Also, the springiness of the bow on the strings. How tight the bow hair is, affects the ability to make a smooth sound or play fast pyrotechnics. Some violinists have subjected their instruments to major surgery like taking off the neck and re-angling it, or thinning out the top plate undersides to alter the tonality. Even with optimal adjustment of all these factors, it is interesting that the resonance of the bow interacts with the resonance of the violin, so that there are slightly different tonalities with each bow/violin combination. As a guitar enthusiast, you probably know about all these things. But despite everything I just mentioned, the difference between one violin/bow combination well set up, and another violin/bow combination well set up, is far greater than any single combo with all the variable setups. This is analogous to how the speaker in an audio system is the dominant factor which makes the sound. My perceptions of the sound of an instrument vary tremendously depending on how far my ears are from the instrument. I hear the sound of someone 3 feet away playing his instrument, but when I ask to try his violin, I am amazed at how much more I hear under my ear and its radically different character than I heard from just a few feet away. Relating to how the monetary value of an instrument has little relationship to its quality and sound, when heard from a reasonable distance, I'll tell of an experience I had. I went to the shop of a famous modern violin maker named Sam Z, to try out some of his recently made violins. The price for his new violin was $30K, when the typical price for a typical Chinese or Polish maker was $3-5K, and $10K for most American makers. I did think that Sam's violin had better tone than typical new violins, but it was still no match for many of the great 18th Century violins I have played. But I have also played many mediocre sounding $100K old instruments which were inferior to Sam's. Some time later, I went to a concert of a string quartet, sat close in the 1st row, and listened to the sound of the 2 violinists in the group. I thought they were both of excellent comparable quality. After the performance, I asked them each what violin they played. One played a great old violin, and the other played a new Sam Z violin. Boy was I surprised and fooled! From even a close distance of 10 feet, the Sam Z violin sounded much different than when I played a similar Sam violin. And this $30K violin had similar quality of sound when heard from 10 feet to the $300K violin. There are a few morals of this story for the audiophile. One, don't judge a live concert sound from a distance of 50-100 feet, proclaim it is the ideal, then go home and adjust your system to make it sound like that. The recording was made with close mike distances, so the live reference sound is the same close distance, roughly the 1st row at a distance of 10 feet or so. Second, understand that money has little relation to the quality of sound. There are cheap speakers and electronics that sound better than many expensive units, and there are also expensive items that sound better than many cheap items. As mrdecibel just said, even cheap amps are readily capable of revealing differences in cables, etc. |
Yes but these cheaper amps don’t do the same job at articulating the differences. You can go buy an emotiva amp and then connect the cables I have and switch back to blue jean cables. I am sure you will hear a difference but can those emotivas do the same job as a top end Amplifier at describing to you the different shades in tonality? Can it pin point exactly what happened to the sound, line item by line item? I don’t think so. Just because a cheap amp can tell you what happened when you switched cables does not mean it can tell you the whole story of what happened. The better the design and the amp, the more it will tell you what Is happening when you make changes as long as you have the speakers that can tell you this too. |
You are mistaken. My cheap Mytek and Bryston tell differences at least as well as the Merrill 114 and the expensive Viola Concerto amp I tested. Possibly better, since the Merrill and Viola always sounded sweet, no matter what they were fed. But the transparent Mephisto, like my amps, tells you more than euphonic, sweet amps. Money is irrelevant. Please stop promoting the high end salesmanship myth that more expensive reveals more things, is better, etc. Just describe what you hear. Thanks for just that. No matter what you have, cheap or expensive, careful setup will always bring more benefits. That's the main value of a high end dealer, compared to online remote sellers. Sellers of cheap things often don't offer the helpful service of some high end dealers, because the mass market high volume nature of the business precludes quality guidance. But cheap things deserve the same care as expensive things. |
Viber, You couldn't promote the expensive because you haven't owned it. I could say the same thing to you by telling you to stop promoting the lamp cord trials that only occur in your domain. I highly doubt anyone went out to try that on their amp. You give tons of opinion on things that you only have really read about or seen on pictures. Why is that the case? |
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Sorry for the length. YT malfunctioned on me. Just search Liszt Mephisto Waltz no. 1 Tiffany Poon on YT to hear just that. I can imagine Gryphon people after they developed the Mephisto, trying to come up with a name for it. They did not develop a commonplace sweet amp which would go well with anything. It certainly frustrated you in the beginning, just like the devil, Mephistopheles. |
Yes. Supposedly this is Jay's thread - describing his journey, how he is going about it and what he finds along the way. Get on the train or not. Instead, a few seem to using this thread as a springboard for flatulent prose and imposing their thinking upon others. And the premise "If you don't like the post, ignore it" is a red herring. There are many instances where the post(s) should not have been there in the first place. |
My previous deleted post, I'll redo here. WC, I don't mean any disrespect, but the fact is that your bias shows in that you continue to promote your own interests in mainly expensive equipment and your cultivation of high end contacts for that purpose. Yes, I have a bias, but I have heard lots of equipment at many price levels, and know what I am talking about. No, I have not heard everything, and neither have you. There is nothing wrong with your mission, and you are entitled to it, and it is your thread. But you will never open yourself to hearing zip cord, or Mytek or anything else that may upset the agenda of the expensively oriented high end audio industry. Many of your followers don't have huge money to spend, or they know the truth of what I am saying and wouldn't spend the money even if they have plenty of it. If you want to cultivate more YT subscribers, you could include your experiences with a lot more equipment such as what I mention. What you consider cheap at $10-20K is still expensive to most music lovers who want to get great sound and still have money for other musical activities, such as going to concerts, taking music lessons. Suppose your lovely daughter wants to take piano lessons or ballet lessons. These costs add up, so some perspective is needed, as I mentioned in my post about the cardiologist above. On to more substantive matters, like music. Mephisto, short for Mephistopheles, was a mythological devil. Franz Liszt, the composer of the Mephisto waltz, was the most famous musician of the 19th Century, with his own devilish personality and devilishly difficult pieces. The YT recording I tried to link was by Tiffany Poon, a 15 year old pianist, who now has 255K YT subscribers and lots of Patreon supporters. This astounding classical piece has big dynamic range and complexity, and shows why I prioritize clarity/detail in audio systems to reveal the music as best as possible. I hope you enjoy it. |
viber6 WC,So? What's your complaint? Isn't everyone here free to pursue their mission, within the limits of the forum's rules? |
Viber6’s bs drives people from this thread. Nobody save one or two cares about the crap he spews endlessly, and no matter how many times he is told by WC (Including recently) to knock it off, he just cannot stop. Life is too short, I’ve decided......Luckily, he confines most of his energy here, so it is easy to get away from him and there are other interesting threads |
It seems to bother some people when their ideas are not used by Jay. Look guys, it’s his journey and his money. It seems some people are still confused about what he is doing after all his explanations. It’s very apparent he does not need the income from the YouTube channel, though it wouldn’t hurt to offset some of the expense. There is no way he could cater to everyone’s ideas, and some people think their way is more right than others. Or that there is even a right and a wrong way. I don’t believe anyone is going to convince him to take their path, as then it would no longer be his journey. Sure, I think he listens to the comments and that might bend him a little here and there, and help direct where he goes next. If you can’t enjoy what he’s doing because it’s not your way, then this thread and the channel are not for you. And that’s ok. He’s said this many times. |
Your arguing points about how someone is doing their post; "You continue to promote your own interests in mainly expensive equipment and your cultivation of high end contacts for that purpose." "You will never open yourself to hearing zip cord, or Mytek or anything else" Of course he is going to promote his own interest it is his post and the things he is interested in. If he doesn't want to hear Zip cord, Mytek or whatever brand it is because, well he does't want to, he doesn't have a interest in those particular brands or items. If you want to hear or read about those other things than start a post about it or find one about it. |
There are many YouTube channels that I subscribe to that give traditional reviews of more affordable equipment. I also watch ones that demonstrate higher end equipment. Because jays equipment is more expensive than many can afford dosnt mean that he’s showing off. If you go back to the start of this thread he wasn’t at the level he is today, and I’m sure his journey started off well before this thread and his earlier equipment was even more mundane. It seems to me he’s in search of what makes for better sound. That’s a never ending journey and there are endless paths that can be taken. There is no way to be so thorough that he covers every path along the way. Some people are more into the minute details as they go, and some seem to be looking to find the answers as quickly as possible. And then so many ways in between those extremes. Last I looked there were 1,700 subscribers to his channel. With all the possibilities, he would have Zero chance of covering all the bases, and even if he tried, would it be fun doing so. Unless that way provided a very healthy income,why would anyone do what he does if it wasn’t for the enjoyment derived. Take that away and there’s no channel. |
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Flrun, exactly what I said about tecno here, and to people on Miller carbons thread about Tekton’s. There are people who don’t like what’s being done. Ok, fine. They don’t have to like like it. First I don’t understand why some of them are even on those threads, but if they feel their way is better, Great. Show it. Create a channel and show what you like and how you do it. Guess what, there’s plenty of room for many different ways. One way isn’t right for everyone, which is why there’s so many different brands of equipment. Otherwise we might as well all have amazon alexas and be done with it. Just as I doubt jay could convince viber to do things his way, why get upset that jay does it his way. |
@speedbump You took the words out of my mouth. I don’t think I could have articulated things better. Thank you for your last comment. For pure transparency, I will disclose HOW MUCH money I have made from youtube over the last 8 months. Everyone wants shootouts and me too but there is nothing coming for me from only doing that. Nada. I want to try more brands but the deals can’t be closed out so I gotta keep reinventing myself. I want to say that I wish I could try everything you all suggest but it is hard to appeal to 1,800 subscribers at all times. I have to keep going with the gryphon project which is my main focus right now. That said, once I feel I have gone as far as I could then maybe I get an itch to try the new boulder stuff ? Who knows ? But right now I gotta focus focus on what I have been doing with the Mephisto. Lastly, today I grabbed a 3rd speaker ($15k msrp) to mix things up a bit and I plan a shootout of this speaker and the magnepan 20.7 only to keep all eyes engaged while I wait on the rest of the items that will be here later this month. I have to keep bringing other things to keep you all entertained and to keep different groups engaged. We will do magnepan with mephisto when that is ready and this 3rd speaker too. More fun stuff is coming your way. |
Jay is the CHEF. he's the biggest cook in audiophilia today, pulling together things we don't all cook with, because too expensive. black truffles. russian caviar etc. all Jay the CHEF is saying right now is, "when Rasmussen with all the Michelin stars, says "gryphon mephisto works with x and y", you might want to pay attention. because mixing and matching as you randomly see fit might cost you alot of money". think of it as a good place to start. Jay has explicitly said this on his last video. once he has it largely as the maker intended and can hear what was intended, then he can go and try different stuff. we will learn from this work too! what an opportunity! it is regrettable i believe that people come here and tear at Jay as he simply offers hobbyists an insight into what's possible. what a thankless task for him. and to then have the thread dominated by blowhards and pissants? thankfully Jay doesn't have a mean bone in his body it seems and thick skin to boot. sometimes it is his tolerance for boredom i am more worried about (and his bank balance!). |
WMC has been a great help to me, I love hearing and seeing the numerous high end products available and his opinion. He is laying out the $$$ and doing the Heavy work load of getting Heavy expensive gear in and out of his system, Buying selling packing and unpacking. Otherwise we wouldn't get chance to hear or see. If you got an issue with his postings don't watch. A little gratitude goes a long way !!!! From my vast experience (35 years) I've learned a lot. Basics first 1) Synergy starts with impedance matching for amp and preamp 2). correct Quantity and type of power (Tube, SS, Class A AB or D) depending on speakers being used 3) Cabling that matches your taste and the personality of your Rig. (Sparkle,warm,Detail super resolute vs Musical) a bit subjective however with experience you should get an intuitive feel for what works for your EARS 4) This one no one wants to hear: to get to the Mega level of sound reproduction there is a price of admission. The Uber expensive stuff sounds better if matched correctly and there is no getting around it. Not to say you can't have a fine sounding system W/O breaking the bank However it won't be world class. The fun part is learning what type of sound floats your boat and then keep observing the weakest link improve upon that and do it again, while moving up the ladder with better gear. Rome wasn't built in a day and I can assure you that your system no matter how good can always get better Best Of Luck !! happy Listening !! |
