The eq argument is certainly an interesting one. i don't quite believe in it for 2 channel UNLESS your room and speakers are in an awful situation that something needs to be done. i know some people have terrible rooms with furniture, high couches, and lots of obstacles, etc and i could say to that "hell yea lets use an eq" because the room is not going to change. That said, those of us who have the blessing to have dedicated rooms have much more flexibility to dial in the sound to our liking. I personally don't like to use tone controls, but there is some gear out there that sounds lifeless so i could see someone wanting to add little more sparkle or bass, etc. There is nothing wrong with that, but at the level that i am and where some of you are, i don't think it is adequate to introduce an eq in the mix.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I am sitting here listening to these amps after not hearing them in over a week since i have been very busy with my family. I let roon just choose a random song and it chose "it smells like a teen spirit" by Nirvana and although this song is a classic and it might be a tad too "aggressive" for my taste, it totally just makes you go "wow, holy sh!t". The drums just make your heart pound, the sense of space and attack just take your breath away. i keep thinking of new adjectives to describe these amps and man oh man all i can say is that they are so impactful, dense, scary, blissful and earth-shattering in terms of their presentation. i can’t think of ONE THING that i wish they did better, but rather i WISH the rest of my front end was up to par. i can sit here until 3am listening to music and find myself NOT ANALYZING a thing about the sound and i still have yet to elevate my preampfification which should improve things even more. I have the following amps in mind: Dag M400s Boulder 3060 what is stopping me from getting either one is the fact that i am not willing to sell my xs300s in order to purchase either one of those amps. What if i don’t like them as much as these amps? i will never be able to buy another xs300 used since they don’t ever show up on the used market. At this point, yep i see myself not moving out of these amps UNLESS one of those amps above can come in this room and annihilate these pass amps. If you ever have the opportunity to hear these amps at one of your local dealers, please go listen to them. I don’t think you will be disappointed. One interesting thing about them is that even though they do have their own sound, they are still able to pass through everything your front end is feeding them. They also are so incredible at letting you hear the different sizes of the soundstage for each song you play. Think of it as a projector that throws a huge image when it is recorded in a 235:1 screen ratio, but when it is recorded in a 4:3 ratio then the projector will put black bars on the sides of the image while projecting on a smaller area. This is exactly what these amps do quite easily and it is very cool to know that when the sound isn’t massive that it is just the song you are playing and the amp is letting you know that. |
WC, The latest Boulder amps are markedly superior to their predecessors according to Rich Maez, the sales director. Instead of trying the very expensive 3060, I would go for the still powerful new 1160. Mayoradamwest will get the 1160 very soon. Even at $28,000 retail, they would have excellent resale value if you didn't like it after a month. Better yet, Rich may be able to arrange a loan similar to Merrill. If not, it is still worth having a talk with him about your situation. Back to the benefits of EQ. As you said, "there is some gear out there that sounds lifeless so i could see someone wanting to add little more sparkle or bass, etc." I agree with this, but I contend that ALL gear sounds lifeless, compared to live unamplified music heard at close range, where the main mikes are in most recordings. Faxer is incorrect in saying that EQ has no benefit in a properly designed crossover-less speaker. Crossover or not, this is irrelevant. The GTA is an excellent speaker, one of the very best, but all speakers benefit from EQ to enable them to approach the snap/clarity of unamplified live music. I could easily demonstrate this in a blindfold test. It will be obvious in ONE SECOND, unlike a typical A/B situation with different preamps/amps where the differences are much more subtle and you want to listen to lots of music before making a conclusion. |
Mark Levinson seems to think the idea of equalization... is better served in the recording process. He calls it master class... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4O6fiZ0ao |
Focals really sound best on tubes (and have for years imo). Most recently I had a La Scala audition at a local dealer on full D'agostino Momentum setup, but that of course is not Pass XS. I was going to come back and hear them on McIntosh (he doesn't sell tubed gear) but never did - same dealer is now the SoCal Boulder dealer and that sounds like a dreadful combo. I heard ARC Ref 250s w/ KT150s on the Allnic importer's Grande Utopia EM in his listening room and it sounded great. He has since switched to Allnic amps and prefers them. You might give him a ring. |
@whitecamaross Try this song. ARTIST TITLE ALBUM YEAR of RELEASE Ratatat Seven 9 Beats 2006 I swear that parts of this song sound like my Surround speakers are playing,Of course they are NOT, but, It is so dimensional that I actually put my ear up to the surround speakers because i really thought they were playing. |
I recommend the youtube video by Mark Levinson linked by aolmrd1241 earlier today. I wholeheartedly agree with his assessment of the importance of EQ. His way is Master Class EQ done by the listener, my way is the less elaborate Rane, spinaker01's way is the digital EQ in Roon. The important thing is to use whatever EQ you have in a customized way determined by what sounds real to you, or pleasurable for the flavor you want in the music. |
Greg and I have been doing shows for many years and the best show that we ever did was at 2019 CAF . Being that there is no transparency robbing crossover you truly get to hear as to how amazing these Pass XS 150’s were sounding on the speakers. It went beyond magical it went beyond dynamic it went beyond transparent. In comparison to what is out there it’s in a league of its own. Just in case you’re lucky enough to get these speakers as there is now a very long waiting list do not part with these amplifiers. We previously sent you some of the reviews on my prior posts. |
The xs150s are great amps but the xs300s are outstanding. One would say the xs300s are just like the xs150 but with twice the power but that's far from the truth. I was given feedback from someone who heard both side by side and he said the 300s sound nothing like the 150s. They are on a whole other level and sound like a totally different amp. |
Mark Levinson, makes so much sense, about how the recordings we listen to are made, and that people are on a merry go round, buying this and buying that, trying to get these recordings to sound correct. I have said, previously, the recordings are the limiting factor, and no matter what equipment you buy, it will not be " live ". WC, your post from 11/20, 10 :45 PM, you state how incredible the xs300 amps are. You can’t think of one thing that they can do better. You can listen, and find yourself not analyzing a thing about the sound.......Your weaknesses are your front end.....Baloney........Under the last paragraph, you state you have Krell and Boulder amps in mind.....I am sorry, wc.....You are not a music listener....You are an equipment listener, and a junkie. You have a neurotic problem, that simply, no longer interests me. Your thread, is not the only thread, btw, that I have lost interest in. You are in great company. So, for these reasons......I’m out.......take care, and continue to enjoy this journey of yours. I am sure, many here, will be happy with my self dismissal. Always, MrD. |
He's married with a small child. Completely normal to be neurotic given those factors. At least he's not a "drama queen". Who the heck has to tell people they are leaving the conversation/thread...well I can think of 2 of you. At least the TROLL in Canada had the decency to just shut down and not make a fuss on his way out the door. I believe your statement has all the credibility of a KISS FAREWELL TOUR.....you'll be back...just like your RANE buddy who also stated he was going to play elsewhere...but keeps coming back with the same drivel month after month. |
@mrdecibel I find that WCSS is in a transition. This new room with these speakers he is using has sent in the boredom. I'm personally mad as hell that he got rid of the Martin Logans. The speed of those speakers are just faster. @faxer has those other speakers GT Audioworks, and they look like winners as well. My only worry would be that 8 to 10 years from now... can you get them repaired? There are boxed speakers that do sound great, but the Neolith is really hard to beat. You would have to spend much more to get another notch above them. So I feel you pain, MrD. Things were going so good. Then the new room kind of messed things up. I think WCSS will come back with something that blows our mind. In time, my friend. |
Yep, he’ll be back : ) and that’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned - well more good than bad anyway, everyone has their pluses and minuses. That said, I wouldn’t endorse all such super-regular contributors, but I digress, and nobody cares what I think anyway, haha. Wow, just got through the whole thread after a month or so of binge reading. Quite the journey! WC, you have posted your top amp selections at various price levels, but I don’t think you’ve listed your favorites at $5k, which is level many readers may be most interested in. If I missed it, I apologize, that’s certainly possible. I recall the "up to $10k" level, but nothing below. Even "up to $7k" would be helpful if you don’t want to drop all the way down to $5k. I realize it’s been quite some time since you’ve had an amp at that price level, but if you could, would you reference your notes and list the top 3 you’ve had up to $5k or $7k? Thanks! The only thing I’d change about how you rotate through gear is I think it’d be better if you always kept your top-performing piece (speaker, dac, amp, preamp) and only got rid of something if it was bested by something newly acquired or existing in your setup -- that way you’d always retain your "current best-of" and your system (to your ears) would always be improving and never potentially taking steps backwards. You’d only need to keep the top performing amp, speaker, preamp, dac, etc., and could continue to shuffle out all those who try but fail to knock the current king-of-mountain piece from the pedestal. That’s not to say you couldn’t continue to do shootouts at lower levels (and we love that!), but you’d always have your reference set! You’d for instance be able to compare mid-level 925’s to some Mc or Pass amp, let’s say, and declare a winner, and then since neither would beat Block or Pass XS you’d still have those and could say, they come in at 88% of my reference piece (or whatever % or other metric you’d like to use). Easy for me to say because it’s not my $$, of course. But far be it from me to alter your journey, haha, you don’t need my advice! Enjoyable read! |
@bigddesign3: you are right, i did mess up selling the neoliths, but i had to sacrifice something to offset the cost of the new room and i also just didn’t feel like the neoliths would have breathed enough in the new space. That said, i have another speaker on my radar which could potentially land at my door before the end of the year, but right now it is tough because i don’t have the space for more since i currently have the dynaudio c4 platinums and focal scala evo in here. The speaker i am contemplating is one of the top models from Magico. i am not 100% yet that i will end up doing it because i need to free up some cash so until that happens then i can’t quite sit down and begin the negotiation process. One last thing, my room just can’t accommodate big wide speakers. They become a pain because i’d have to move them out the way every time i want to watch a movie. @mrdecibel i understand if you feel the way you do about me. That said, i really enjoy the xs300s and have zero plans of selling them and this will prevent me from buying the boulder or Dag amp. I would LITERALLY have to have a shootout in my home between those amps and my xs300s and be blown away in order for me to sell my amps. As a matter of fact, last night i decided to watch a movie and i could not believe how "not so good" it sounded in comparison to the clarity, imaging, and grace of my xs300s (yes i know it is not a fair comparison ),but the point i am trying to make is that the 2 channel experience was elevated tremendously and i dont even find myself blasting things because it is quite enjoyable even at low volume levels. Do you all notice how sometimes when you turn down the volume of your music the magic falls apart, (less oomph, less bass, less of everything) and then you need to crank things up again in order to recuperate what you’ve lost? THIS IS EXACTLY what these amps DO NOT DO. They have an insane amount of everything regardless of the volume level. Good luck with your audio journey mrdecibel |
hmm, best used amp under $5k? that is an easy one; Plinius SA103 hands down. You simply can not get a better amp for under $5k and i dont care where you look. i have turned every stone looking for one and that amp STILL impresses me today. i plan to do another "best amp under $" post before the end of the year taking into consideration the amps i have gone through this year. Just keep in mind that this is subjective and not written in stone. however, for the most part i find that my recommendations to many of you have been pleasant. |
WC, You have reached a great milestone by saying, "i dont even find myself blasting things because it is quite enjoyable even at low volume levels." That means the XS300 is a great amp. Honestly, the speaker that does mostly everything best is the GTA. They are very efficient and one day you will find a lower powered amp that will beat the XS300 and give your tonal flavor, and you will enjoy all SPL's with the GTA. No need to spend big money on Magicos. |
Bigddesign3 let me put your fears to rest about the viability of GT Audioworks. GTA has been building speakers for almost 10 years, customers who bought them still have a lifetime warranty and not one has ever been repaired or failed. The design of the driver is unlike any other in that the membrane is almost like a Kevlar vest in terms of its durability. Unlike other planar designs most of them will fail or deteriorate due to the fact they are aluminum traces and it is almost impossible to get a proper solder joint on aluminum. GT Speakers use pure 6N copper traces and the solder joints will never fail. At the present moment GT Audio Works has enough replacement driver materials for every single customer who has purchased them over the last 10 years. Additionally, all current and past speakers that have been sold come with lifetime upgradability- if and when a change is made to the planar drivers. The current model is light years better than previous models and must be auditioned to truly be appreciated as the greatest buy in hi end audio. Greg, myself and all our entire company stand behind this warranty until the last day on earth. |
You know I'm quite excited to try gt audio speakers at some point in the near future. I'm going through other options available to me locally before I try gt audio. I think of it like this: You drive a Toyota , then Lexus , then Mercedes and then Porsche and hopefully end up in a Ferrari. I find the journey exciting in many ways. Remember I did hear gt audio and I liked them more than some of the stupid crazy expensive stuff shown at axpona. Last night I heard the Wilson wamm with their subs. For amps they used the 160m and a mark levison 532h for the subs. Let me tell you that set up had potential but lacked the wow factor in terms of sound. My friends and I all agreed it wasn't worth the 1.2 million dollars but also because it lacked serious artillery for amplification. I was told that the reason why they used those amps is to prove how efficient the speakers are. 700k speakers, 100k transparent speaker cables , 30k interconnects and a 30k pair of monos with a 10k mark Levinson amp ? The speaker had huge sound and dynamics but they didn't floor me and I know it was the amps they were using. Mind you they had arc 750se in the room and chose NOT to use them. Last point I want to make is the music selection. They used some obscure music that makes you scratch your head and think WHAT THE HELL AM I LISTENING TO ? GTAUDIO, keep doing what you're doing by playing music that people can relate to when displaying your speakers. This is exactly what will give you an edge as well because most people already know that some manufacturers only play certain type of music because their speakers fall apart with other music. |
@faxer , Thanks for the impressive response of your repair-ability of the GT Audio speaker. I do concur, that there is not much to to wrong with these type of drivers. And the strength that you are building into them is far greater than I have ever imagined. I personally like planar di-poles for the fact that you can throw a massive amount of good amplifier power into them (me Krells) and not worry that you are going to blow the drivers. I'm glad you're getting such a good response on the sound. Kudos. |
Thanks guys. Unfortunately, the sound at Axpona was not even in the same galaxy that we had at Capital Audiofest 2019. Several factors contributed to what I consider handicaps 1. Although the GT Speakers or 93B be efficient they do like solid state high current as preferred amplification. The speakers are voiced with Pass Labs and other high current solid-state amplifiers 2. We were also severely limited by the fact that we could not move the furniture in that hotel room and could not get the speaker set up the way we wanted them to be set up- coupled with the fact that this was basically a closet not a true room to exhibit the speakers. 3. It was a completely different animal at Capital Audiofest we had a 35 x 27 room and had the pass XS 150’s and XS pre and XS phono pre. not to mention the 125,000 Basis turntable. yes the speakers do sound better with the XS gear but the speakers do sound pretty good on their own even with the $13,000 XA 60.8’s. |
@whitecamaross , Yes, I hear you about your projection screen being in the way of large speakers. I remember tying to nudge you towards a 75" LED TV when you were building your room. It's a tough choice between Home Theater and SOTA Stereo Sound. I myself was in business with this Home dilemma. It was about 1990 when I went to Epcot Center in Orlando and experienced the Sony Home Theater system with 75" TV and a great sound system. They just sat us way closer to the TV screen. Since that day, I never recommended a projection screen system to my clients. It was mind blowing how well the sound and visuals were compared to any projection system. I know today things are much better with projection, so it amounts to what you want more in your new room. Really, good luck starting over with your new room. |
whitecamaross I concur on your observations regarding the proper amp to get what you are looking for in speaker performance. I am sure Wilsons can run on low power tubes, but if you want dynamics to die for, you need current, and lots of it on demand. As you heard at Axpona we used the 2 models of Zanden amps...the lesser cost single pair of push pull KT120's, 90 wpc and top of the line 65 wpc push pull KR845 model to good effect in that smaller room. A lot of factors make or break an audio system, room size, room damping and speaker amp interface are no doubt major contributors. When we set up those Pass Labs XS150's at CAF 2019, I was amazed by the degree which those amps gripped and controlled my planar ribbon speakers. Everything we played, and it didn't matter...rap to Rachmaninov was presented in a way I had never heard from my speakers...that weekend was a friggin blast. One piece in particular David Byrne "Kish" , a quirky orchestral piece absolutely floored me and the visitors we had in our room very late Saturday night. The amps and speakers never ran out of steam, the dynamics just kept building and getting louder but maintained stunningly low levels of distortion. Rolling thunderous bass drums flooded the entire 25'x32' space. I am now a believer in what the right amp can do for a speaker. Steve has been babbling ever since trying to figure out how to buy those XS150's. He has 60.8's at home and at around $13k a pair they are amazing in his 16'x27' room. They really rock like nothing I have heard at the price. Desmond of Pass will be sending Steve the next best thing to the XS150's...the XA160.8's. We will keep you apprised as to how well they stack up against the XS amps. Steve and I finally got the system set up and running in his listening room after the show. After a hard workout of 4 days of constant musical peaks in excess of 110db my speakers sound just fine. The drivers are now officially considered bullet proof and passed the test of fire. The 60.8's sound amazing..we will see how big of a splash the 106.8's make in his room. Stay tuned. Greg GTAW |
Awesome Greg. I look forward to your impressions. I owned the 160.8s and although they are good, they missed the huge overhead and voltage the xs150s brought to the table. They had the sweetness but lacked the muscle and "steroid like " control of big swings of the xs. That extra chassis of the xs is certainly doing far more than just adding heat. One interesting comment I have is that I felt like the xs150 ran hotter than the xs300s. I don't know why that is to be honest but my logical explanation is that I drove the 150s harder than I drive the 300s. If you guys could get hands on the xs300s, I don't think anyone would leave the room.. |
Hello @Whitecamaross... Just a couple of caveats about the Boulder 3060 amp that you are planning to source. The device can't be connected to a regular 120AC line. It requires a 220V-240V 32A AC line, and The amp must be plugged into a 32A wall socket. Finally, your AC panel and in-wall wiring might need to be modified, because the critter appears to be capable of drawing some 6000 (6K) Watts at max power. You will be able to dredge up this info, in one form or another, starting at: http://boulderamp.com/products/3060-stereo-power-amplifier/ Saluti, G. PS. I heard the device a few years ago at Soundings in Denver, during RMAF.... Regretably, I was not overwhelmed by its musical prowess. |
This is something that I can't understand about boulder. I mean close to 90 % of people that have heard it haven't been impressed by the sound but rather just the construction. I can't understand why would boulder build stuff that has zero appeal to most people ? Somebody told me that boulder is like eating a meal without salt. Just too plain and tasteless. |
Update: The xs300 is the type of amp that needs a solid 8-10 hours of play time to really come fully alive. I am listening right now and they are just crazy 3 dimensional, but this was not the same effect i heard this morning when i turned them on at around 9am. The shifts between the speakers are bigger, the detail comes out to touch you, the depth is as if you were in a cave listening to music. Pretty astonishing to say the least, but i will say this could be a problem for some of you (not an issue for me). You can’t judge these amps from a cold start. They sound good from a dead cold start, but they sound INSANE after 8-10 hours of being on. i need to have a talk with Nelson because he seems to be against a "green" environment lol :) |
I think like any systems, there needs to be synergy. Everyone I’ve met who has heard the Boulder 3060 has been quite impressed. Their preamps are also remarkably revealing in a good way. It really may come down to what music you like and what the rest of the system is. That said, the XS300 I’m sure is equally as amazing in different ways. |
@whitecamaross You and I had a kind of similar experience. I heard the new Chronosonic XVX at Excel Audio in Newport Beach. D'Agostino Momentum monos on speakers and Progression monos on subs. Clear Audio Statement table and DCS stack minus the upsampler, Nordost Odin 2, newest top of the line HRS racks. I've heard the 160Ms with DAW and Alexxia 2s. They just don't have the same connection that the Momentums have. And I believe I wrote something about this when you had the 160Ms or 160S, I forget what you had. Anyway, the system, as I've noted above, was really amazing. I am very familiar with this system for some time with the Alexx speaker and the Master Innovation table and the new XVX + Statement is an amazing huge step up. The Momentums give it the wow factor you are looking for. I have not heard the XS gear, but have heard the 160.8s and they lack the wow factor of the Momentum monos so I understand your comments on the 160.8s. |
All amplifiers are system dependent. Specifically, the GT Audioworks Planars are measured in room to 40 hz the heavy bass frequencies are handled by the sophisticated open baffle servo woofers with its own dedicated 1600 watt amps. My point being is that most of the juice or current of an amplifier is utilized in reproducing the lowest frequencies in the motor structure of the woofer. This is where most amplifiers are stressed the most. The main amplifier(s) on the planars are basically seeing an easy load as they don’t have to expend current to move woofers. The planars are 93db efficient (due to a lack of a crossover) and are a nominal 4 to 5 ohm load. We achieve great results with 30 watt amps and yes with the XS 150 Amps the GT’s really come alive with greater dimensionality, transparency, spatiality and organic richness. The XS amps are truly spectacular in their portrayal of the recorded event. Although other amps are able to drive the speakers to very high sound pressure levels the XS amps do it with a much more graceful ease and - with the best tonality. |
Tonality is exactly one of the attributes that these amps have that the regular pass amps don’t. They just inject you with a huge amount of Information and energy that you can’t put it into words. I haven’t been as impressed with other pass labs amps becuase the luxman 900u pretty much annihilated them in many ways. Word on the street is that luxman is building a pair of their new reference amps which will be 60-70k and well that will certainly be something I’ll be all over. My personal opinion is that you need to be in the 200.5, 200.8, xs 150, xs300 to be in the very best from pass labs and be in heaven in terms of sound. Everything below those models is good but not something you couldn’t live without because there are a lot of brands out there that can easily compete or even best them. That said, if you hate heat or if your room has terrible ventilation then skip pass labs. |
This may be an interesting question that I don’t think has been discussed or answered in all these many pages of this thread: It’s clear from WC’s description of the top-o-line Pass amps that he loves them, but just as clear that he DOESN"T like the lower end Pass amps, or at least would not recommend them over comparables. Here’s the question: Which amplifier brand does the best job at standing out above the competition at ALL price levels, all things considered? That is, their lower end amps (sub $10k) are the best or nearly the best at that price point, their mid-level amps ($20k-$30k; best or nearly best at this level), the same, and also for their cost-no-object amps? Now I know there probably isn’t an easy answer here, but that’s why I’m asking. There probably isn’t any company that dominates all three. Is there anyone who takes 2 of the 3 categories? Some (e.g., D’ag, at the expensive end, Parasound, PS Audio at the inexpensive end) probably only make amps in two of the three categories, or even only in one of the three categories. If no one single brand is best in all three, is there a brand best in two of the three? Or further, maybe one brand is best or nearly best in low and mid, and another brand is best or nearly best in mid and high?? Suppose it is even possible one could be best in low and high, but not mid?? Bake in all of the variables, and who comes out on top? Pass? Musical Fidelity? Audio Research? Luxman? McIntosh? Rowland? Bel Canto? Bryston? Hegel? Boulder? Note that my arbitrary low, mid, high levels above are really mainly fitting into the hi-end-ness of this thread; most would probably bump those numbers way down for their own situations. |
Simaudio is a better amp than bryston in my opinion. Brystons are workhoses that don't quit but so is a bulldozer which I'm not sure I want to drive down the interstate. Simaudio always did more for me than bryston. I still love simaudio but guess what ? It doesn't get a lot of love on the used market because it's Canadian and some say it's too expensive. The messed up part is that these are the people that really don't know much about simaudio or never owned it. There's no amp company that rules on all different tier groups. It's impossible to be the jack of all trades. You must decide on which is the demographic you're targeting and shoot for it. I've owned many good amplifiers that most of you would find enjoyable, but I've only found a handful of outstanding amps. It is all relevant and although I want to say " yes a power amp worth 10k brings 90% of what one that costs $90k has, that is never the case. Yes amplifiers go through an evolution too and get better and better. I could see a case where an amp that was $50k 10 years ago gets beat by an amp that costs $25k today. For instance , look at the old luxman 60k monos which get destroyed by a pair of luxman 900u. |
It’s about time I return to put some grains of salt back in the discussion...and put things in perspective again... First, just like I said a year ago, Neoliths are gone...and were just overpriced for what they were...lots of electronics in the signal way. Not a purist approach. Now, new speakers, Focal Scala Evos. Serious speakers from a serious brand, and yes a more serious msrp. It was just a matter of time for WC to get to this kind of dynamic drivers again... speed, bass, simple passive crossovers...TRANSPARENCY, DYNAMICS. TRUE WC. Now a speaker that deserve the praise. Ok after the flowers, the pot. Pass Labs XS 300. Overpriced gear again, overkill power for Scala Evos big time.... Remember , new room and new speakers. Bring back in a pair of 200.8 or 600.8 monos, do a blind test and NOBODY will discern the XS apart from those...no way....50/50 results at best. Have a look inside the XS...there is nothing new there that Pass Labs has not done before...same green circuit boards with transistors array on both side, same big blue can capacitors.. just more power , heat , and casings. You bought heaters , plain and simple. Scala Evos are high sensitivity speakers, like most Focal they sound best with tubes and need pure amplification...not monsters for the sake of it... Lets be serious again. Glad to be back. |
techno_dude or someone pretending to be techno dude since this person only has one post lol... do you think we are stupid that we only see you with a single post and the first thing you do is to post in my thread to start sh!t ? I can already hear RIAA beginning to type something exclusively for you Techno (if this is indeed techno which i sincerely doubt). Anyhow, for those who actually follow my thread and have positive things to say, i am hopefully picking up the very first real preamp for my xs300s tomorrow: Boulder 2010. @bill_k yep, it appears that someone already decided that the simaudio 870 and 860 are the winners in every single category. That said, has anyone here heard the Dag progression vs momentums? because someone here is implying that there would not be a single difference between both amps in a blindfold test... however, what he forgot to mention is that in this blindfold test the only person who is sitting there listening is him and nobody else. People who ACTUALLY have experience with gear of this caliber can hear the difference. As the old saying goes: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it" Lastly, you can’t expect every set of ears to hear the differences hence the reason why all sorts of cheaper items are available. Remember, these would the be same people who probably would tell you that a Ferrari drives the same as a Lambo if you close your eyes while you are driving, but what this person forgot to mention is that all he’s driven is the new Honda Civic Type R which entitles them to having a ton of credibility. |
Do a blind test against a pair of 600.8, and then we will talk. First 50 watts of those are pure Pass Labs class A, the Evos will sing no differently than with the XS... If you can blindly ear the difference at the same exact sound pressure level, wow just wow congrats my friend... ( lost my password and email account, I’m the same canadian fellow that offered you my 900u in private and you responded you could have one for a better price) |
