Jeff Rowland Corus, PSU, and Esoteric K1 have arrived.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I really like your home theater design choices. I have 2 of the Martin Logan Vision soundbars, and the folded motion tweeters are never fatiguing. ML in-wall solutions have been around for years, and are one of the best ones out there. The REL Predator subs are closed box, which I prefer over ported subs. They should be fast and accurate. Epson projector, the best. Looks like a winner. |
Rowland Corus with PSU initial impressions:
Overall, this is an incredible preamp. I hear a ton of things that i did not hear before. I would not be shocked if this preamp with the Constellation Centaur 2s sounds killer. That said, my Nordost Odin 1 speaker cables are leaving tomorrow to be put on the machine and add more hours on them. I figure right now is the best time to do this since i am not doing a lot of critical listening. The first shootout i will have in the new room will be Jeff Rowland vs Constellation with the Esoteric K1 Dac. Stay tuned, more to come. |
WC, The source and acoustics are the most critical components, possibly as important as the speakers. Before you dismantle the Neos in your present room, please do the testing of all preamps/amps there, since you know the acoustics well. The new room will have completely different acoustics. Until you get to know the new acoustics, it will be harder to do the A/B tests. The Esoteric promises to be the most revealing source, so it will be important to use it in all the testing in your present room. You can still enjoy your HT in the new room, and move the Neos later, after you have done the testing. And then you can repeat some of the A/B testing in the new room, to see if you arrive at the same conclusions as in your present room. Even though the Merrill 116 won't arrive and break in for another month or so, it will be worth the wait until you can hear the 116 in your present room. |
Hey WC, the PSU's contribution to three-dimensional stage, imaging, and resolution will come in gradually over the next 100 hours or so of the critter gobbling up AC and pumping DC through its ultracapacitors for Corus's benefit.... Corus itself may take quite a bit longer to give its best, depending on how broken in it is already.... Extrapolating from my own adventure with Rowland Aeris DAC when I started to feed it with PSU, the best has still to come! Saluti, G. PS. Ah yes, last night I received the full PSU manual from the Rowland factory... Have not opened the document yet, but it is probably much more thorough than the Quick Start guide... I'll send it to you in a few minutes. |
Listening at louder volumes right now and here’s what I’m hearing WITHOUT NORDOST speaker cables: -Incredible level of detail. The nuances are laid out for you to listen and indulge. - clarity in spades - bass is still not as “muscular” as the gryphons and constellation - soundstage height is not as tall - excellent depth and imaging - relaxed, smooth, silky with zero harshness. It could lead to countless hours of listening sessions. If you value detail and clarity, this is your system. If you value muscularity, HUGE soundstage from top to bottom, and musicality, constellation has it. That said, this might change over the next few weeks once I connect the esoteric k1, add a nordost Odin 1 on the preamp, etc. These are preliminary findings so DO NOT take them as gospel yet. There’s still a lot more to do here. |
No matter what electronics you are talking about, "muscular bass" is usually associated with some loss of upper midrange and HF clarity. Despite flat freq response from 20-20,000 Hz, it is a difference of perceived emphasis, with tonal balance of muscular amps leaning towards bass, and less muscular amps leaning towards HF, yielding more clarity, detail. So the Rowland preamp and amp have the same characteristics, singly or in combination. Same goes for Constellation. This difference is not likely to change with the Esoteric K1 or cables, although both the Rowland and Connie will probably sound tighter and more revealing in the entire freq range than they did with the Lampi or Oppo. |
These 2 systems couldn’t be more different. They are smooth and detailed but they go about their business in different ways. I will expand on this in the next coming days or weeks. Whichever system I keep will be the one that I felt was the one that better fit my current needs and not because the other one was no good. Both systems are excellent |
So, the Gryphon Diablo 300 was the 2nd most muscular of all the amps wc had ( through the Neos ) ? I would like to hear that from WC, as I do not think that is the case. WC mentioned he almost purchased Gryphon separates, so I am assuming he heard a Gryphon amp / pre set up ( Mephisto and Pandora ). Viber, I need to disagree, that an amp that has more muscularity in the bass, would be " associated with some loss of upper midrange and HF clarity ". That has not been my experience, with many " brute force " amps I have owned, and have listened to. Having greater control, extension and speed, of woofers ( muscularity of bass ), is an " addition to ", the mids and highs, not instead of. Can you give me an example of an amp that does this ? I am not talking about amps that do not have muscularity, as there are many. YMMV. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, Your wife continues to show that she has good ears. BTW, you can get the Audio CD from Digital Recordings to test hearing thresholds in 1 dB increments from 0 to 80 dB at 32 freq between 20 and 20 kHz. You need a good set of headphones and a headphone jack with volume control for this test. I can almost guarantee that her ears will measure better than yours. Females have better hearing than males, and she hasn't been exposed to as much very loud sound as you which causes hearing damage. Since you are about half my age, your hearing likely tests better than mine. Perhaps the Merrill Christine + 116 will give the best of everything, but my experience with many amps is that more detailed amps are associated with less quantity of bass, although more accurate, tighter bass. So far, you have found that the Connie has more quantity of bass than Rowland, but which amp delivers more accurate, tighter bass? Regarding spatiality/holography, tubes are king, but we know that tubes are less detailed/accurate. Relative to the Rowland, Connie is tube-like in midrange/HF. At present, you seem to value spatiality and tube-like quality above detail/clarity. However, you may be transitioning to the detail camp, since you were not happy with the Lampi/Connie system which sounded a little syrupy. This caused you to move on from Lampi to Esoteric. As you know, I had an early romance affair with tubes and spatiality which only lasted a year. Since the Rowland system is sweet and smooth with clarity/detail, you would have just about everything in music that is important, and you could live happily with that for a very long time. Let's see how the Merrill rates. |
Mrdecibel, Perhaps my experience is not as vast as yours, but I'll give a few examples. Comparing the Bryston 3B SST to my Bryston 2.5B SST2 for moderate volume music within the comfortable range of the 2.5, the 3 had much more bass emphasis but much less detail in midrange/HF. It was sickeningly dark and veiled by comparison. The Bryston 4B SST2 was much better than the 3B SST, due to the updated SST2 design and NOT the increased power. Unfortunately, I had the same findings that although the 4B had more fullness and bass, it was deficient in detail/clarity in midrange/HF compared to the 2.5B SST2. Although analogies are often faulty, a few police officer patients of mine have told me that fat men are slow in their fighting ability, and they lose the battle due to fatigue. Many people have found low power amps to have more purity/detail than higher power amps. This is one reason they choose efficient horn speakers with their low powered (tube) amps, although I would choose an accurate low powered SS amp with horns. |
Just connected the nordost Odin 1 into the Rowland preamp and now this is a dog fight. The preamp opened up and now it has EVEN MORE detail. Those of you who don’t believe in powercords have no idea what you’re missing. More bass has been added, soundstage is slightly larger and there’s more depth happening now. This BY FAR an extremely difficult task. That said, the big constellation Monos are still off to the side waiting to enter the fight. I’m ITCHING to try them with the Rowland preamp |
WC's findings with the Nordost Odin1 feeding PSU are quite consistent with the further enhancements I am experiencing by powering my own Rowland Aeris+PSU DAC with the Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cord.... Larger holographic stage, further clarification of images, subtle enhancement of resolution... All together, I find Cardas wires very synergistic with Rowland components... I use Clear Beyond XL PCs also on my amps... Rowland M535 and M925s, as well as on the Esoteric X-01 transport. Saluti, Guido |
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I’ve been listening to the Rowland set up and after adding the esoteric k1 dac, the Rowland improved far more than the constellation preamp did. Yes, both did improve but I feel as if the Rowland preamp went a step further. There’s an incredible about of air between instruments, lots of clarity and dynamics. If I had to make a choice right now, I’d sell my constellation set up and keep the Rowland. That said, that is a bit premature since I still need to unleash the centaur 2s and let them do what they do best PLUS I need to get my nordost Odin 1 speaker cables next week and begin to see how things change. Still lots to do before I make my decision. |
WC, It could be that the Rowland preamp is still breaking in, especially with the PSU needing time to break in, as Guido says. Also, the Esoteric is more revealing than the Lampi, which helps to better differentiate all the electronics. The Rowland's "incredible amount of air between instruments, lots of clarity and dynamics" is the ideal combination of everything desirable, and is more true to life than big inflated images with artificial holography of Constellation or similar setups. No rush to make decisions before you try the Merrills. Looking forward to the DCS Vivaldi vs Esoteric K1--WOW! |
There’s nothing Inflated about constellation. It has tremendous soundstage, depth and height. It has perhaps the fullest sound to come out of my neoltihs while still retaining holographic imaging. I can say it’s the best imaging I’ve ever heard here. I’ve said it many times here, at this level it’s all about the flavor you like and the music you listen to. To say one is artificial or bloated, etc isn’t really an accurate statement. |
Ok guys, the Centaur 2s are front and center now. They are dead cold after being unplugged for about 10 days so we will see what happens. Will the centaur 2s Godzilla-like bass control and devastating soundstage make me change my opinion or Or will the Rowland's articulation and resolution continue to trap me and make me forget about the huge canvas of sound from the constellation set up ? |
WC, For years I made "silly" comments about what was "best". After years of experience listening to high-end equipment I started using "preference" as a way to differentiate between components. I'm a firm believer that "we" are still trying to find different pieces of a puzzle that fit best to provide the sound our ears prefer. Inserting the Esoteric K1 DAC had a different impact on the Rowland preamp vs the Constellation preamp... Why? Who knows? The more I read your thread, the more I realize at this level it comes down to preference and the only true way to know what one's ears will prefer is through actual listening. There isn't a right or wrong, no absolutes, and no perfect component. |
Agreed. Right now, as I listen to the constellation, I feel as if I’m seated a few rows back and with the Rowland I’m a few rows closer. The catch here is that with the constellation I might be able to listen to music for longer periods of time than with the Rowland. Of course, this depends on the volume levels as well. I also want to share one interesting thing with some of you: I feel, based on my own experience, that power hungry speakers such as mine really seem to open up more when using a preamp than using a dac as a preamp. I feel that the demands this type of speaker puts on the amps really transfer all the way to the preamp. Lost of the dacs out there are amazing of course and will do the job just fine but with insane loads like mine, a preamp is almost a must have. A preamp simply has more juice, more “push” than most dacs out there. If you all have hard to drive speakers, remember what I just said. |
WC, Although you know I haven't heard the Constellations, I am just going by your own statements that Rowland reveals more detail but has smaller size of images than Constellation. Tubes have the biggest images, but are less accurate and detailed, according to both of our experiences. The Connie has some degree of this aspect of tubes. I don't want to leave the impression that I think Connies are bad, just say that compared to the Rowland they are less true to life. Also, I don't know exactly what you mean by holography, but the common usage of this word is that its spatiality is artificial like 2D cutouts pasted at various locations, like the artificial 3D in movies. The movie 3D is perhaps better than regular movies, but it isn't quite real. But what truly is lifelike is what you said about the Rowland, having "incredible amount of air between instruments...." In real life, images are separated and specific, not artificially inflated, which actually DECREASES the space and separation between sound sources. To make an analogy, think of a 20 foot bench. 8 slender people will be able to sit with plenty of space between each of them, but 8 fat people will sit with less space between each of them. Also, what you just said about the Rowland having a more upfront sound than the Connie, is further illustration that it is more detailed, and that it has more HF information than Connie. The remarkable thing is that the Rowland is still liquid, smooth and sweet, combined with better clarity than Connie. If the HF are not grossly "in your face" but are more naturally detailed, that is a wonderful endorsement of the Rowland as the way to go. Just keep the volume sensibly loud to soft, so you can enjoy more details and beauty of the music through the Rowland. |
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Constellation Virgo 3 with centaur 2 Monos and esoteric grandioso k1 Dac: PROS - imaging is out of this planet. I haven’t owned anything that images the way this combo does - the biggest soundstage I’ve ever heard - amazing mids - can be blasted LOUD and you won’t want to turn down the volume. It doesn’t ever get in your face. - incredible bass control. - sounds good even with “ok” recordings - Luxman on steroids in terms of sound quality. - puts you in the middle row in terms of presentation. This allows for long listening sessions. CONS - amps are rather large - some may not like the look - although there’s detail and insane resolution, i can see how there might be an ounce or two of resolution that is not as readily Apparent. - you will need to get a loan or sell your car to buy the centaur 2 Monos unfortunately. Overall, this combo is incredible. No real weakness in my opinion other than the heavy price tag. If you value spooky imaging, 3D sound, and muscularity,musicality and no fatigue, this will do all of the above in spades. I don’t care what I’ve owned before; Bryston, pass labs, Krell, simaudio, luxman, Musical Fidelity, Plinius, classe, ati, rotel, Cary audio, bat, audio research, McIntosh, etc. This centaur 2 would stump on all of those amps I’ve owned. It would not even be a fair contest but rather a laughing matter. This is in a class by itself and everything else I’ve owned is way behind with the exception of the block audios. STRONGLY RECOMMENDED if you are looking to get some of the best amplification in existence today. You can just bypass all the 300 PLUS amplifiers I’ve owned because they will take a back seat to this one. |
WC, It's been cool to read about your evolution here. It was just a year ago or so when you thought it was crazy to spend much money on power cords. And now look at those you have purchased. The same can be said about other cables you have purchased. Only through trying such cables for ourself, do we realize the bias we had before we bought such cables would soon be reversed. And the issue of DACs directly to amp or first through a line stage. This is another area that a number of us here concluded 15+ years ago - that we preferred the result with the line stage. A manufacturer of a past DAC I owned wrote on this site that he added the volume control to alleviate the need for a line stage, and that his method was the way to run with that product. After I tried with/without the line stage, the line stage in the loop was much preferred. Maybe there was a tiny bit of detail lost, but with "my" line stage, the result was a "bigger" presentation with greater dynamics contrasts, and far more harmonic structure. Which is "right"? Who cares, if we prefer it. I had the same experience with the previous DAC I owned with a volume control. And of course, the specific line stage model here has everything to do with the outcome. I have experienced a similar benefit with phono step-up transformers that can be configured for 2 gain settings. Those few extra db of gain at the step up bring on a bigger presentation than if I use the volume control on the line stage to achieve the same sound level in the room. For phono or a DAC, the extra gain or buffer stage is doing something that perhaps one of the techie gurus like @Almarg could explain here. I have read the comments of many preamp designers that the volume control itself is critical in the end result of their product. Perhaps volume controls in many DACs are not up to the same caliber as those in the upper tier of line stages? WC, contrary to a few people here pushing you to remove the Ref10 from your system, you knew it brought magic to the end result even with the faults it had. On your next endeavor, for a line stage and amp pair from the same manufacturer, I hope you can try a set with tubes....at least the line stage with a tube rectified power supply. You have not experienced such a product yet. It will be a game changer. |
jafox, My past experience with phono step-up transformers is that it is necessary to match the impedance of the cartridge with the gain of the transformer. More precisely, the turns ratio of the input and output of the transformer, in relation to the cartridge impedance, I forgot the exact formula. If you use a different gain, or turns ratio, then HF are rolled off. I stopped using transformers when I got a high gain phono preamp stage for my low output MC cartridge. |
I believe when someone states " it is the best ", they are stating, it is their # 1 personal preference over something, or, everything else, that they have experienced. So, it is kind of the same thing. However, I would like to point out, again, and as most already know, that audio is, a very individualistic hobby, and what is best for one person, may not be for another. Example : Speakers. Planar, Electrostatic, Dynamic and Horn loaded ( if I left something out, sorry ). WC has selected his best, and I certainly have selected mine. So, happy listening to all. Enjoy ! MrD. |
The Neoliths are a great reference point for testing. A preamp is NEEDED for the full sound that we all love that gives the instruments body, and allows for the volume to be raised properly. No matter how you bake it, go with a preamp. The only speaker that might unseat the Neoliths in the new room is the MBL X-Treme at over 3 times the price. |
@jafox You said "Which is "right"? Who cares, if we prefer it." Bingo. There is no right or wrong. But when you hear "it" you'll know it and you'll want it. @mrdecibel Along the same lines, yes. Pick your poison and enjoy it as much as you can. We each pick what we like, and within our respective budgets, we vote with our wallets. It would be nice for all contributors to this thread to understand this basic point and stop trying to tell WC what he needs or doesn't need. @whitecamaross Really enjoying your comments on Constellation. I've never heard it in any meaningful way but would like to. Your comments really whet that appetite. Would really like to hear Soulution as well. @bigddesign3 I have not heard the ML that WC has but have owned ML further down the line myself and like them allot. That being said, I've heard the MBL - Extreme system a few times and can tell you if I had the room and the $$, it'd be here right now. No knock on WCs journey and I have no idea what the Reference ML sound like, except to say it must be pretty glorious. @whitecamaross I salute you and this thread. Can't wait to read more of your findings. |
It's not my intention to hijack this, but here is an excellent link on a discussion for SUT matching. http://https//forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thoughts-on-cartridge-loading-with-a-sut |
jafox, the link above is not working for me, but, it needs to be posted in the analog section. bigdesign3, as I have stated a bit above, and pokey acknowledged it, what is good for one is not always good for another. I will never use a preamp again, as, the extra gain, " for me ", would be ( and has been ) detrimental to system sq. Enjoy ! MrD. |