2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 
3 of my amps are lower power than the XA-25 but thanks for the concern.
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
riaa, it seems that jetter and viber think you are a child, that you cannot make up your own mind, that you need guidance, that you are new to this audio stuff, and, that you don't have other amplifiers in your arsenal. What gives ? Off that topic. As I am passive ( aggressive, lol ), I would need the additional gain of the XA 25 vs. the SIT 3, as I do not want to go back to using a preamplifier. But, as I listen to my system, it really leaves nothing to want, and it would really be out of curiosity, as I have owned so many Class A amplifiers, and still have a few. WC, I am glad you will be getting your garage set up, and hope you achieve the 2 channel sound we all know you love, as well as your multichannel rig. As I have mentioned prior, and I do not want to be negative here, it has been my experience that the best 2 channel rigs, including my own, have been dedicated 2 channel rigs, and once you mix multiple speakers in the same room, along with the front screen ( whatever screen it is ), messes up ( again, for me ) the 2 channel, music only, experience. But on a positive note. Having a dedicated room, that is yours, to do with what you like, and without disturbing anyone else, is a WONDERFUL thing, and I wish you luck and happiness. One thing will be for sure. Movies, concerts, and music videos will likely be outstanding ! Always, WC, my best. Enjoy ! MrD.
Post removed 
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 
Im crushed. Perhaps you should get a 2nd job or research the stock market instead of spending your idle time writing 1200+ posts. You would be able to shell out a measly 3-4K for an amp with the money you earn instead of asking multiple people on various threads how it sounds. Very Sad indeed.
jetter
3,032 posts
 
Respectfully riaa, I have been on A’gon for 18 years, not so sure that I have an excessive amount of posts for that amount of time, but even if I did?

Again, respectfully, one can’t help but notice that 99% of your posts are on WC’s thread, you must really like him a lot? Is he a friend of yours?

I have the means to buy whatever I want but I am actually happy with my simple music system. I am a certified public accountant having just retired from directing a large corporate tax department. 
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

I’m probably older than his father. Never talked to him in my life. I have no desire to peruse every topic on Audiogon and bombard people with questions about equipment I have no intention of buying. I have better things to do 10+ years into retirement.

I should also mention I am nowhere near as old as Vibes and Mr. Deci...those guys are older than dirt!! LOL

bigddesign3
237 posts
 
riaa,
How do you like the Luxman amp?
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 
 I have tinnitus so my opinions on sound quality should be disqualified due to being hearing impaired. I rarely ever make any "listening" observations in case nobody noticed. Sorry I cant be of more help Big D.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
RIAA,
Sorry to hear you have tinnitus (no pun intended).  If it is episodic like many of us, then the majority of the time your hearing may be good enough to discern differences in amps, etc.  It would still be useful to get your evaluation of the XA25 vs ARC 160 at modest sound levels. Of course, how the Lux 900u amp compares to your other prestigious amps would be of interest.  Young people may have better objective hearing measurements, but they may lack judgment about whether what they hear relates to musical reality, so we old foggies can provide useful info.

Of course, unlike what mrD said, I don't think you are a child or new to the audio game.  But it is fine to have an open mind which sometimes vacillates between alternatives, to welcome guidance or hear different viewpoints.  Top people in many fields confer with colleagues to get guidance.  It is also nice to have more than 1 amp for different purposes, such as a pure low power one for highest sound quality, and a high power one for very loud music.  
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok gentlemen,
Finally made 2 big moves at once. Big curveball for you all!
up next:
audio research 160 monos
Jeff Rowland 925s

Both should be here in the next 10 days. The 925s are making a comeback so it will be the following shootout:
constellation centaur 2 ($80k)
Rowland 925s ($60k)
ARC 160 monos ($30k)

who do you got winning? Class D? Class ab? Tubes?  Let’s do this !


klh007
621 posts
 
Wow, what a comparison you will have in house soon! I'm betting the beautiful Rowland 925s will be a favorite choice.
psnyder149's avatar
psnyder149
158 posts
 
WC,

Can we hope that you are planning on wedding those AR 160's to the Sonus Faber Aidas...  This can be a match made in heaven... and illustrated in your new dedicated listening room!!!  I remember how you liked them last month...  Ah, but I think you have let go of the Ref 10 to feed the beasts!!!  Lampizator will just have to do the job on it's own!  

Sweet listening my friend!!! 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Thanks Paul !
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

Congrats on the 160M.  I have never heard anybody trying to use them with ANY Electrostats so wondering if there is a compatibility problem. Will be interested to hear your findings.

Viber...thanks but its 24/7 everyday which is why I warn the OP from time to time to keep the volume and especially the Bass down or live with a Fire Alarm/Buzz going off in your head non-stop for the rest of your life. Not fun.

viber6
2,444 posts
 
RIAA,
OK, I understand.  Still, your hearing is good enough to enable you to appreciate the differences between amps, otherwise you wouldn't be trying different amps.  As far as noise is concerned, those 1950's Mercury Living Presence recordings are still fabulous even if there is lots of hiss.  The hiss is steady, so it doesn't intermodulate with the music and doesn't suppress any fairly low level music to any significant degree.  The recordings are fabulous because of the microphone technique and EQ which create the close, intimate presentation.  This feeling overcomes the slight impediment from the hiss.  If your tinnitus is similar in effect to the hiss, you can still enjoy the sound and find it useful to try different amps, etc.  That said, in my car with lots of road noise which is mainly low freq, the music is significantly buried at moderately low levels.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
WC,
I agree with RIAA that the ARC 160 might have a compatibility problem with the Neo. Unlike SS amps which usually deliver more HF capability into the low impedance of stats, tubes do the opposite and can’t deliver as much output into low impedances, especially the very low impedance of the Neo. At loud levels, they are likely to sound rolled off in HF with the Neo due to this effect. But at low levels, this effect would be a lesser problem, and then the tonal quality of the ARC would be better appreciated.

Let’s see if you find the relatively small differences between the 925 and 535 that Guido found, even though he said that bridged mono 535's with the cap addition are an improvement from single 535's.  The bridged 535's at $12K is an attractive proposition.  To be fair, do this comparison at only moderate loudness levels so the single 535 will have plenty of power for that type of music. Of course, at very loud levels, the higher power of the 925 will give it the advantage. It is not about class D, AB. It is about the designer’s use of any topology he works with. I have found some class D amps to sound better than AB, and vice versa.
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
That’s some serious horsepower you got going on there WCSS. The Constellation Virgo Preamp could make for some good sound with these amps (over just going direct with Lampizator). I’m betting the Rowland 925s will give the most powerful presentation. But that ARC 160....... who knows? It could be very lush sounding, and you can’t stop listening to it. The Constellation is still a great set of mono amps, and just as powerful. You are in for a treat testing with your Neoliths.
guidocorona
4,298 posts
 

Hello V6, the relative closeness of M925 with M535 is exclusively something which I experienced with a bridged pair of M535 enhanced with the slip-on caps on the output terminals.


I must reiterate that in my own system, the performance of my well broken in pair of M925 monos, feeding Vienna Die Muzik via Cardas Clear Reflection speaker wires, comfortably exceeds the capabilities of a single M535 amp. , as much as the M535 in stereo mode remains a wonderful amp in its own right.


Saluti, Guido




ron17
607 posts
 
@WCSS

Why don't you just borrow some of riaa's gear to evaluate....might save you a few bucks.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Riaa let’s me borrow if I send him a check first lol 
minorl
1,016 posts
 

I'm also of the opinion that the Audio Research 160 amps may not have enough juice for the Martin Logan Speakers.  I was thinking that you would get the Audio Research REF 250 SE amps, which work quite nicely with the Neoliths.

I've mentioned this combination before.  Also, it is fairly "easy" to resell REF 250 SE amps.

The problem with the 160 Amps may also depend on the pre-amp you are using.  If you had the REF 10 still, I would say it would be perfect pre and amp combination, not sure about the amp/speaker combination.


but, with your current set up, I'm not sure how the 160 would do.  But, I am definitely curious to read about your impressions.

By-the-way WC, you are streaming music correct?  If that is so, does streaming services provide lossless streaming?  what quality is streaming is provided?  I'm sorry if you mentioned this previously.  I may have missed it.

Anyway, enjoy and carry on.

wesc
10 posts
 
I am also mad and a little drunk right now so I might be selling off my constellation centaur 2 monos. I can’t say much more than that at this time other than I’m going to be heading to tube amps or class d amps. Yep, Rowland 925s or Belcanto black system might make a return here. 
I will share with you all the reason why I am thinking of going to class d sometime in the near future. I’m just a little pissed off right now. This journey is crazy to say the least and it does get on my nerves at times. When you think you’ve got what you wanted and then sometime else pops up which totally messes with your head. Ugh... let me keep sipping on this vodka soda and blast this at 100 dbs.
this is my favorite post.

this hobby can be frustrating... for me its difficult to know where is the best place for the next move. You are so awesome because you just keep making moves. I appreciate what you do. 

pokey77
1,265 posts
 
@whitecamaross 

Well, I've heard the Ref160Ms many times. Never heard the other two, but with ML I'd assume both to be much better. Now if you were using the Ref750SEs, then maybe it'd be a different story. I've heard the 750SEs (many times) and then switched to the D'Agostino Progression Mono's/preamp (one time) and it was a tough choice there. This was with either the TAD R1 or Wilson Alexx speakers, I forget. Hard to pick a winner, but I may lean to the SS side of things. I'd really like to do that comparison again to better understand my preference. My guess is you will like the big SS power better. Have fun!
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Thanks @westc

viber6
2,444 posts
 
WC,
While you are waiting for the exciting ARC 160 and Rowland 925, tell us how your Classe amp 2 compares to the Centaur and 535.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Using the lampizator as my source and the Constellation Virgo 3 as a preamp, here are my thoughts:

Classe AMP 2: incredible clarity which also digs really deep into the recording. This makes details that are buried behind the music become more recognizable. I pushed this amp as hard as i could with the neoliths and i eventually managed to make it clip (shut off one of the channels), but it had no problems driving my unforgiving Neoliths. I would say that for the money, it is not a bad amp IF AND ONLY IF the rest of your front end is world class. I dont know if it is because my preamp and dac are awesome, but this amp surprised me which is WHY i am starting to get the feeling that Neoliths might be a better match for Class D than Solid state. I also feel as if Class D just keeps up with the speed of the panels and the bass control is just a tad tighter through the Neoliths. i can't explain it. 

Rowland 535: i have not used it with the Constellation Preamp yet. I will try to use this amp in the next few days to see how it compares. 

This is EXACTLY why i am bringing the 925s back. I need to see HOW good the Neolith/ 925 combo will be and do a shootout between rowland and Constellation. Both amps are world class, but i think that at this level it is about matching components. I like alot of what constellation is doing with my speakers, but there is something ELSE that class d does with my Neoliths that Class AB does not seem to pull off. It feels as if the panels light up more like a Christmas tree with Class d. There is more stuff happening behind the music that is harder to pick up with Class AB. 
One thing i have learned is that WITH THE NEOLITHS, amplifiers with higher gain tend to bring out MORE detail out of the panels than lower gain amps. For example, with the Classe amp which has a gain of 29 db vs the standard 26db of the constellation (as many other amps have), i hear more detail at lower volume through the Class D when the volume is turned down. The constellation amps begin to "vanish" once i begin to take the volume to very low levels while higher gain amps continue to push music.  Pretty interesting learning experience !
Of course, i need to sit with the class D amps for hours at a time to see if they engage me as much as Luxman, Constellation, etc, but i think the trick IS for me to use "musical" components in order to reshape the sound of a class D amp. As stated earlier, i feel as if class d still has some "artificial sweetener" which is like Splenda. Some folks hate the aftertaste of splenda while other's dont mind it at all. The trick here is to use smooth sounding preamps or tubes with class D amps in order to reshape its sound signature. This is exactly what i will be doing with the 925s. Time will tell!
klh007
621 posts
 
WCSS, Thanks for your detailed comparisons, especially the Class D control over the stat panels and your findings on amp gain and low level listening. Your journey keeps us on the edge of our seats waiting for the next episode to be released, thanks for playing at the Summit-Fi level, yet still having some gear in the more affordable arena like the Rowland 535 and Lux integrated. Good luck with the build out of your garage into a dedicated room, and have fun with the new amps arriving soon.
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
WC, a few comments, if I may. You stated you made one of the 2 Classe amps shut down, based on driving them real hard, but said in the same sentence, they had no problem driving the Neoliths. You have a tendency to drive all of your amplifiers real hard ( you like it pumpin ), but in my experience, a ss amp would clip a little before it shuts down. Did you not hear clipping distortion ? So, I am questioning this. Also, you mention a few other things. The front end ( all of the gear before the amplifier ), is critical and needs to be " first class ", and, " at this level of equipment ", system matching is definitely important. " Any system " will benefit from having better front end gear; and system matching, is the key " at all price levels " of gear. Input gain on amplifiers, between 29 db and 26 db is not much, and I do not think your ears are hearing " that ", especially at the lower listening levels ( I could be wrong ). But the volume level " control " on the preamp will definitely be a bit different in it’s setting. Because you are a loud listener ( and I know loud ), some sort of equalization ( loudness contour ) would be beneficial to you at lower listening levels. I am not trying to be the devils advocate here, but all of this is based on my many years of experience, and this is simply why I have not learned anything here. Maybe it would be best if I no longer post on your thread. I do not know how you would take any of my commentary. But, I do believe telling the truth. P.S. As far as the comments I made about jetter and viber, with riaa’s XA25 situation, they both reminded me of my " nagging " ex wife, so, I spoke up. Enjoy ! Bless you and your journey, and all the best. MrD.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
WC,
Thanks for your observations on the amp 2.  I found the same with the Classe D200, which is the same circuit.  It was smooth, a little warm and very detailed.  No need for sweetening via source, preamp, DAC, cables. Classe did good R&D on their proprietary class D.  I reluctantly returned the D200, and found the Mytek Brooklyn amp (also class D) to be a little better in detail and neutrality, with good power at 300W/ch into any impedance.  The Mytek is a nice, light cute package for $2k.  Strictly speaking, class D is SS.  Class D refers to the output stage, which is SS, such as modules from Hypex, etc.  But many class D amps have widely differing sound character, due to the input stage which is usually SS circuitry although some designers use tubes.  The input stage can be thought of as a low level preamp stage which is obviously critical.  Just don't generalize about class D, AB, or even tubes.  For example, some listeners have reported neutral, SS-like sound from tubed amps like Rogue, and mellow, tube-like sound from SS amps like Pass.

Regarding the gain question, I hear no difference with my highly detailed Bryston 2.5B SST2 at 23 or 29 dB gain (of course with the gain on my Benchmark DAC adjusted to get the same volume).  I had the Nuforce ref 9SE v3 which was highly detailed although with a weird tonal quality, whose gain was only 21 dB single ended.  So I don't think there is a correlation between gain and resolution/tonal quality.  Although I have not heard any Constellation amp at home, I believe the explanation for your findings is that the overall design of the Connie yields a little less low level resolution compared to your other amps.  You had said that it is a little lacking in sparkle, which is saying the same thing.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
mrdecibel,
With my little Bryston amp, I don’t hear any obvious distortion when the clipping lights go red for an instant. I have turned down the volume several notches to see when there is no red clipping, so I find that very brief clipping is not audible. Most recorded rock music is compressed, so when there is clipping it may go on for several seconds continuously, so I imagine that audible clipping would be more obvious. I am glad many amps have clipping indicators, and some amps without clipping indicators just shut down, to protect the amps and speakers.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok, so let me give you all an EASY explanation without getting too technical which i know bores alot of you here:
26db Gain vs 29db gain in amplifiers is NOT the same volume level at lower listening levels. The amp with 29db WILL ALWAYS begin to "sound off" BEFORE the amp with 26db does if BOTH are being used with the same preamp. This effect ends up keeping my huge panels "alive" at lower volume levels. 
Also, when i said "it drives my Neoliths with no problem" i failed to articulate further. I meant that it drives them within reasonable levels and it only shut down the amp when i was pushing close to 100 db. Did i hear clipping prior to shutting down? possibly did, but let's be honest here: MOST OF US can't really detect clipping with some of this high end gear. Yea, i can detect clipping if i blast my factory car radio rather easy, but that is not the level of equipment we are talking about. 

jetter
3,032 posts
 
mrd, I am somewhat taken aback.  Things may be different where you are.  But up here in the green mountains of Vermont a person would not call another person he does not know well a nag without expecting a very serious reaction.

RIAA, I am sorry if I upset you, I did not know about your hearing problem.  The only reason I was asking you is because I have enjoyed reading your posts, had I known I wouldn't have, it was all just meant to be fun.
guidocorona
4,298 posts
 

Hello WC, in case you were interested in trying higher gain on the returning Rowland M925, each chassis has a toggle switch on the back panel which lets you change the gain from the 26dB default to 32dB.


Please note that before flipping any of the toggle switches on the back of M925 you must put the amp into standby mode via the front momentary contact switch... Toggling anyone of the back panel switches while the amp is fully powered on, might produce a sharp audible transient which might result in some damage to some speakers.


Saluti, Guido


    


   


mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
WC, just a side step here. Thank you. Jetter, you are a grown man. The only reason you reacted the way you did, is because you knew you were nagging. How many times must you repeat yourself " I cannot believe, nor understand, why you won't hook it up ". Viber was very repetitive here for a long time, and until the XA 25 thing, he has changed his postings, which many of us appreciate. So yeah, I witnessed nagging. So, can we now go back to being adults, and comrades, with this sick and somewhat torturous hobby of ours, and all be on the same team. I apologize to both you and viber. RIAA, I am getting plenty of mail and phone calls about supplemental health care, as I turn 65 next month. I do not need you to remind me of it !....  " old as dirt ". THIS IS A LOL MOMENT ". All good. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. Enjoy ! MrD.
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riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

Actually it was OLDER than dirt but I understand that dementia might be creeping in and facts and comprehension get fuzzy at your age. I’ll start a GOFUNDME page for your forthcoming incarceration in a nursing home. Once my other ear goes I will take up knitting and start making you some bibs with a SRV Logo so you can drool away with pride. What are friends for?

viber6
2,444 posts
 
RIAA,
Very apt description of what happens when health becomes bad enough to require a nursing home, which is indeed "incarceration."  I freely share medical advice just like audio advice.  My field of interest is anti-aging medicine, but I am sorry to say I haven't learned much to help tinnitus or hearing loss, other than the usual warning to avoid blasting loud music.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
WC,
26 dB gain from an amp used with a preamp gain set to 3 dB will produce the same sound and volume as the same amp with 29 dB gain and the same preamp gain set to 0 dB.  With poor quality volume controls at the extremes, 20 dB amp gain with 12 dB preamp gain might yield a slightly different sound from the same amp gain of 32 dB with 0 dB preamp gain, although I don't know of any amps with 12 dB switchable gain differences to do this test.

See what almarg or bill_k say.
ricevs
1,543 posts
 

Re the Audio Research amps......they use inexpensive EAR feet and these things are slow and muddy sounding.....please use great feet under the Audio Research amps, and of course, under all amps.

The "latest Class D" (as of this minute, always changing) seems to be the Merrill amps.  How come no one here is listening to them?.....they are cheaper than mono mega amps.......their most expensive/powerful ones being $36K for monos......and now just released a $15K stereo amp.  Could be killer, you won't know unless you try.

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riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

...And if you dont like them you will lose your *ss trying to re-sell them unlike Audio Research, Mcintosh or the other more established brands.  Go buy a Bel Canto Black system and watch more than 50% of your investment go down the toilet overnight on the Used market.

THATS why the OP doesnt buy ultra boutique brands. He would go bankrupt trying to flip them. I think YOU should buy them and tell us how they sound.

mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
First Watt amps all have low gain, but not switchable. SRV bibs. Now we are talkin’. I do not know of a larger fan than myself. My wording, " old as dirt ", did not make me feel as old as " older than dirt ". I am aware of how I worded it ( lol ). My mom had dementia, and later, Alzheimer’s, for a 10 year period, before she passed. My dad, who passed a year before my mom, had dementia, but his physical health was what, well, worse. Things I remembered 2 years ago ( such as names of musicians, or actors ), are no longer remembered. I still remember every piece of audio gear I ever had in my possession ( quite a lot ), and pieces that friends of mine had ( much of it was mine prior, which they have forgotten ). Viber, I will likely pm you with a few health questions, if you do not mind. Anyway, on a happier note. I am looking forward to the continuation of wc’s journey, and to his garage transformation. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
I believe viber was interested in the Merrill amps. As far as feet, I agree, but always believed, based on improved sq, to use tube dampers as well ( on tubes, lol ). We have the dampers, for tubes; we have the meats, for sandwiches. Ya kno...
viber6
2,444 posts
 
Oh yes, I am aware of the just released $15k Merrill Element 114 stereo amp--see that thread.  I am waiting to get a well broken in sample from Merrill or a dealer.  I won't be taking any loss if they are not what has been claimed, and will gladly pay retail which is very reasonable for the quality if true.  I will definitely be reporting here.  It promises to be an endgame amp at a bargain price for those people who know the supreme importance of clarity and neutrality.  Sorry for the repetition, but it can save many people from the endless activity of merely trying different sonic flavors of the month and taking a financial beating nearly every time.    Resale value for the next year or so would probably be good, since both the stereo 114 or slightly more powerful mono 116 are highly sought after.   Even if you take a total loss of $15k, which is unlikely, that is no worse than the loss taken on selling $80k Constellations or similar stuff.  
lemonhaze
415 posts
 
WC,
Try Mighty Sam McClain for some great blues. All his stuff is great but my favourite is 'Give It Up To Love' especially #2  Was voted album of the month by some mag. Take him for a loud spin.


@ ricevs You sound like you have experience with feet for amps. Care to share? Think its on topic on an amp thread.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
ricevs,
I saw your 5/3/19 post on another thread.  We agree that class D offers excellent sound on an absolute basis and per dollar.  GaN technology will become cheaper.  For the moment, Merrill may have the most accurate sounding overall design.  If that is confirmed by our listening, it offers outstanding value at the price.  The $22K 116 monos may have slightly better sound than the $15K 114 stereo, but in view of the future decline of GaN prices, I favor the cheaper 114, which still has plenty of power for a sane listener.  Maybe you can get a home trial of a 114 to compare with your products.  Your $2K amp would be of interest to many people here.   Please provide your contact info and describe the sound character of your products.  Thanks.
dracule1
1,085 posts
 
Am I the only one who finds it unethical and distasteful when a dealer shills his speaker (GT Audio Works) with underhanded comments over another similar speaker (Alsyvox)? #Faxer
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riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 
Obviously taking lessons from Pugsley in Jersey City. Might as well learn from the best!!
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
dracule1, my problem with faxer, initially, was he was not forthright in stating himself as being a dealer. A very happy customer was what he portrayed, and I lost every bit of respect for him. His GT Audio Works could be the best there is, but at this point, I would never give Steve ( faxer ) my business. WC thought Steve was great at AXPONA, but that is besides the point. There are many manufacturers, and other dealers here, who are open and forthright, so I find it ok. Just need to ignore certain folks. " Pugsley in New Jersey ". Yeah, I ignore much of what they say. Viber, as you may know, I am, besides a Klipsch Heritage junkie, I am also an amplifier junkie. I have a few Yamaha pro amplifiers that I rotate ( play in my systems, lol ), that have front panel indicator lights to let you know when 1 / 2 watt is being outputted into the speakers. With my Lascalas, most of the time they do not come on at all. Of course, with a simple increase on my Luminous, they come on, but never continuous, no matter how loud I play. I own, from new, an HK Citation 12 that was converted for me by an old friend of mine, into a 1 wpc class A amp, to drive a pair of Stax phones I once had. It was replicated by a Nelson Pass article in some electronics builders magazine, many moons ago. This amp drives my Lascalas very well, with some music, at some nice volume levels. But, I can easily make it clip, and it is quite sad, because it is a BEAUTIFUL sounding amplifier. Enough of me, as I do not want to anger WC. Enjoy ! MrD.
dracule1
1,085 posts
 
mrdecibel, I agree with you.  I find any dealer, who comes on a forum without being forthright about his conflict of interest and start trashing another competitor's product, worthy of being banned.  I have not heard the GT Audio works yet, but I plan on it.  If I like it, I definitely will not seek out Faxer for purchase.  As for the quality of manufacture and aesthetics, there's no question the Alsyvox is hands down better, as it should be given the price.  It's like comparing a Camero to LaFerrari.
ricevs
1,543 posts
 

Have you guys heard about Purifi.....the new company from Bruno Putzey? He has a new class D module that they just took around at Munich and apparently beat every amp it was tested against. These modules will be released in a few months and may be better than Merrill and possibly anything? The distortion figures are the lowest I have ever seen.......007 percent 20hz-20Khz from one watt to one hundred. These amps could be available for $5K or less. 200 watts into 8 ohm and 25 amps current....but for most that would be enough. I am sure they will have a more powerful module available in a year or so.....maybe sooner. Purifi-audio.com

If this amp equals or beats the Merrill amps then the Merrill amps will be boat anchors within a year. Bruno says these are sonically way above his NC1200 Ncore modules he designed years ago. No, they are not using GaNs. The only thing that matters is how it sounds. I am hoping it is killer as high end audio prices are OUT OF CONTROL!

BTW, Srajan at 6 moons will be listening to the baby Merrill and the proto Purifi, so we will have someone soon who will state what they hear.

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
So today I realized how F**ing moody the constellation centaur 2 monos are. They are like a woman on their time of the month. They simply sound so-so certain days and then one day they come out of nowhere leave you breathless. They are really sounding insane right now. They have an ability to draw you in so badly that you forget to go to the bathroom to  take a p***.
Such an incredible phenomenon which I’ve never ever experienced with any other amplifier.

A couple of updates:
wireworld 8 speaker cable was returned ( will keep going forward with Odin 1)
arc 160m will be in my hands tomorrow( I will post pics for any doubters)
jeff Rowland 925s should land here next week.

Will gryphon be next? :) is there a pair of Mephisto monoblocks coming? Hahah


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